EPTE-stars Seoul pulls out Blizzard games - Page 8
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JiYan
United States3668 Posts
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McDonalds
Liechtenstein2244 Posts
On March 05 2011 12:37 mordk wrote: Unlike say, soccer, StarCraft is a REGISTERED TRADEMARK They don't use the trademark. It's not called the Starcraft League, it's called the Starleague. That's pretty much the end of what trademark applies to. | ||
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Shizuru~
Malaysia1676 Posts
Korean pride lol. Obviously they haven't been keeping track on whats going on around everywhere else, Sucks that they have to behave in such childish way, last year E-Star events was freaking awesome. Not very often we get to hear Tastosis commentate on Warcraft 3 and dancing games  | ||
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maybenexttime
Poland5706 Posts
On March 05 2011 11:56 Whitewing wrote: Because KESPA started demanding money from other companies for the right to broadcast Blizzard games: something only Blizzard should have the right to do. In other words, KESPA was acting as if it owned Starcraft, which Blizzard has the Intellectual Property rights to. KESPA is refusing to recognize Blizzard's claim of IP rights, and Blizzard needs to defend it's property, or what incentive is there to actually create games? Blizzard actually tried negotiating and coming to terms with KESPA for years before the lawsuit. KESPA refused at every turn. GOMtv on the other hand, asked blizzard directly for SC2 broadcasting rights, and Blizzard gave it to them for $1. They clearly don't care about the money, they only want their property rights respected. While it looks bad for ESPORTS in Korea right now, a precedent for ignoring a companies IP rights to a game would KILL gaming in general. "Football" the sport isn't owned or created by a single company. Starcraft, on the other hand, is. Nobody owns the intellectual property rights to football. So much misinformation... Are you doing it on purpose? | ||
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rabidch
United States20289 Posts
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eviltomahawk
United States11135 Posts
On March 05 2011 17:42 maybenexttime wrote: So much misinformation... Are you doing it on purpose? I've seen some of your posts from the "WCG pulls out of Blizzard games" thread, and I have to say... A lot of people genuinely believe in the "facts" that they state in these Blizzard vs KeSPA threads. If they believe them to be true in the first place, then I don't think they are lying or purposely misinforming anyone. People in these threads are just stating what they believe, and I think it's rude to treat them as lying propaganda-spreaders. There is a chance that what they believe in is wrong, but they may honestly not realize that they are misinformed when trying to regurgitate what they know about the debate. IMO, it's acceptable to point out flaws in someone's argument or tell them that some of their facts are wrong, but it's just plain wrong and rude to say that they are purposely lying when in fact 99.99% of people are probably just misinformed, not lying. | ||
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Alver
United States177 Posts
i got into bw entirely through tasteless casting for gom, i didint know bw well enough to watch it with korean commentators before a season or two of goms tournament because i never played bw seriously and didint know who players were other than the top3. sorry if this isint 100% accurate, i watched all the gom bw games but i didint pay attention to blizz vs kespa till 2009-2010. while i respect the work kespa has done i dont like hearing how they try to promote esports in general, they promote sc:bw in korea. if a person was not interested in bw i dont see how kespa would ever do anything to benefit them ever. companies like samsung have revenue over $100 billion a year, kespas free advertising is worth more than any cash they could ever hope to make from the teams. so while saying kespa is non profit is true, they generate millions in profits for their dozen companies through advertising. seems like the ip rights situation is loose/loose in that either future esport gaming suffers (casual gaming wont suffer though so game companies will shift to that direction) or bw suffers. blizzard wont be the one to suffer though. if blizzard does anything right its making as much money as possible from its work and i highly doubt theyd be in court right now if they werent completely sure theyd win. | ||
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LegendaryZ
United States1583 Posts
The reality: KeSPA started charging broadcasting companies to broadcast KeSPA sanctioned games, teams, and players. As it relates to OSL, MSL, and Proleague the result is the same, but legally there's a world of difference. | ||
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Lotar
132 Posts
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maybenexttime
Poland5706 Posts
On March 05 2011 17:55 eviltomahawk wrote: I've seen some of your posts from the "WCG pulls out of Blizzard games" thread, and I have to say... A lot of people genuinely believe in the "facts" that they state in these Blizzard vs KeSPA threads. If they believe them to be true in the first place, then I don't think they are lying or purposely misinforming anyone. People in these threads are just stating what they believe, and I think it's rude to treat them as lying propaganda-spreaders. There is a chance that what they believe in is wrong, but they may honestly not realize that they are misinformed when trying to regurgitate what they know about the debate. IMO, it's acceptable to point out flaws in someone's argument or tell them that some of their facts are wrong, but it's just plain wrong and rude to say that they are purposely lying when in fact 99.99% of people are probably just misinformed, not lying. I can't keep track of who's genuinely lost when it comes to the issue between blizzard and KeSPA, and who's spreading misinformation at that point. There are just too many people making such ridiculous claims. But you have to agree there are some people who do that on purpose. Take the "KeSPA threatened to ban players if they play in gretech's league" "argument". People claiming that (or similar things) have been proven wrong again and again, yet they keep lying about that situation. On March 05 2011 11:56 Whitewing wrote: Because KESPA started demanding money from other companies for the right to broadcast Blizzard games: something only Blizzard should have the right to do. In other words, KESPA was acting as if it owned Starcraft, which Blizzard has the Intellectual Property rights to. Wrong. They started demanding money for ProLeague, which is largely their creation. They reinvested all that money back into esports (Dream League, expanded ProLeague, Special Force ProLeague, and so on). They have never demanded any money for OSL or MSL, thus claiming they charged the broadcasters for broadcasting blizzard games is ludicrous. KESPA is refusing to recognize Blizzard's claim of IP rights, and Blizzard needs to defend it's property, or what incentive is there to actually create games? Refusing to recognize their IP rights? Is this why HanBit Soft got blizzard's permission back in the days and why KeSPA agreed to pay blizzard royalties? What incentive, you ask? Well, how about selling those games for $50 or so each? It's not like KeSPA is illegally selling BW copies, now, is it? Whether what they're doing is breaching blizzard's IP rights is for the court to determine. It's certainly not black and white. StarCraft's ToS/EULA (unlike SC2's) say nothing about broadcasting games and other activities KeSPA is involved in. Blizzard actually tried negotiating and coming to terms with KESPA for years before the lawsuit. KESPA refused at every turn. GOMtv on the other hand, asked blizzard directly for SC2 broadcasting rights, and Blizzard gave it to them for $1. They clearly don't care about the money, they only want their property rights respected. 1. Set the contract term for using its games to 1 year 2. Prior approvals about all league operations such as contracting sponsorship, marketing materials, broadcasting plan 3. License fee for running of league and all license fee of sponsorship inducement 4. Ownership of all broadcasted programs, program videos 5. Right to audit KeSPA 6. Contracts between KeSPA progamers and Blizzard that override their contracts with their respective teams. 7. $100,000 per season of each league. Owning any sort of content OGN/MBC create? Owning the rights to the players so that they can basically tell them they HAVE to play sc2 (read their contract with gretech regarding transitioning to sc2)? You call that negotiations? On the other hand, gretech was offered a 3-year contract for $1, had no programmes/shows blizzard could take ownership of (they're not even a TV, just some obscure online broadcaster), no players or teams (because they cost millions of dollars...), no infrastructure, no maps (they actually used KeSPA maps, go figure...). The only reason why blizzard made a contract with gretech was because gretech agreed to be submissive, even obsequious, and could represent blizzard in a Korean court as a Korean company. They wanted to show KeSPA they can make a deal with another company, but in reality gretech is just a puppet of theirs. They clearly wanted to exploit KeSPA. Since gretech had hardly anything to offer to them, blizzard decided to charge non-Koreans for watching gsl, I suppose. While it looks bad for ESPORTS in Korea right now, a precedent for ignoring a companies IP rights to a game would KILL gaming in general. OK, what the fuck are you talking about here? T____T Esports has only helped games like CS, Quake and BW. It helped BW immensely... How can it kill gaming if it's perpetuating the sales of games, which would normally be considered outdated? | ||
Whitewing
United States7483 Posts
On March 05 2011 19:00 LegendaryZ wrote: The myth: KeSPA started charging broadcasting companies to broadcast Starcraft. The reality: KeSPA started charging broadcasting companies to broadcast KeSPA sanctioned games, teams, and players. As it relates to OSL, MSL, and Proleague the result is the same, but legally there's a world of difference. It's essentially the same thing though, which is what Blizzard is arguing. KESPA was using a Blizzard product to earn money without recognizing the rights of Blizzard. While it looks bad for ESPORTS in Korea right now, a precedent for ignoring a companies IP rights to a game would KILL gaming in general. OK, what the fuck are you talking about here? T____T Esports has only helped games like CS, Quake and BW. It helped BW immensely... How can it kill gaming if it's perpetuating the sales of games, which would normally be considered outdated? You don't understand the concept of a legal precedent, I'll explain: In law, when a ruling is given, it sets the precedent for future behavior. Gaming companies expect that when they produce a game, they will own the intellectual property rights of that game. If there is a legal precedent that they do not in fact have IP rights over their own games, that creates a massive disincentive for gaming companies to produce high quality games and games for competition, and to balance them for ESPORTS. For gaming and ESPORTS in particular to be successful, you need high quality developers (like Blizzard) willing to put the time and effort into a single product (Broodwar and now SC2 after they've moved on from working on BW) to make the games good enough to be used in an ESPORT. They won't do that if they don't own the IPs to their own games, and a ruling against Blizzard here would set a massive precedent (in Korea at least) against that. At the very least, it would kill competitive gaming in Korea, as no gaming companies would work there. It wouldn't happen immediately, but the goal is for ESPORTS to be a long term deal with staying power, so that 10-15 years from now, we can still enjoy it and the next generation can enjoy it as well. That won't happen if the gaming companies don't have their IP rights. I am also NOT arguing against ESPORTS, you misunderstood my post. | ||
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maybenexttime
Poland5706 Posts
On March 05 2011 19:46 Whitewing wrote: It's essentially the same thing though, which is what Blizzard is arguing. KESPA was using a Blizzard product to earn money without recognizing the rights of Blizzard. If they didn't recognize their rights, HanBit wouldn't ask for permission/make blizzard aware of the esports scene and KeSPA/OGN/MBC wouldn't agree to negotiate and pay royalties. | ||
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Whitewing
United States7483 Posts
On March 05 2011 19:48 maybenexttime wrote: If they didn't recognize their rights, HanBit wouldn't ask for permission/make blizzard aware of the esports scene and KeSPA/OGN/MBC wouldn't agree to negotiate and pay royalties. KESPA didn't agree to negotiations for years with Blizzard, and eventually Blizzard decided it needed to make a stand for their IP rights and made an unreasonable demand, with the intention of settling in court. Blizzard clearly feels that their IP rights are being disrespected, and KESPA has messages that state clear as day that Blizzard has no such rights, that's the entire reason Blizzard is sue'ing. KESPA did a great thing for the ESPORTS scene, but the problem is that they aren't helping the future of ESPORTS in many ways, they're preventing it from growing further at this point. I don't blame them really, they're trying to earn profits for their sponsors, but it's not a good thing for ESPORTS. | ||
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maybenexttime
Poland5706 Posts
On March 05 2011 19:53 Whitewing wrote: KESPA didn't agree to negotiations for years with Blizzard, and eventually Blizzard decided it needed to make a stand for their IP rights and made an unreasonable demand, with the intention of settling in court. What are you talking about? Blizzard themsleves stated that they began "negotiating" in 2007. Then they were breaking off/postponing the negotiations every time sc2 was being delayed... They made such ridiculous claims from get go. They never had the intentions of the talks getting anywhere. They wanted everything to coincide with the release of sc2. Are you telling me the tyranny of blizzard is better than KeSPA for esports? T___T So far blizzard has been dragging esports down with their stupidity. No LAN? No cross-server play? Shit maps? Suing broadcasters? Threatening to shut down OSL/MSL/PL? I could go on and on... | ||
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Alver
United States177 Posts
for how much money and time they spent on sc2 they could have made 3 non esport games. and theyd have little reason to balance after the game came out if their games werent played so seriously. think of how slowly diablo 2 got patched and that was a huge non esport game. | ||
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Whitewing
United States7483 Posts
On March 05 2011 19:55 maybenexttime wrote: What are you talking about? Blizzard themsleves stated that they began "negotiating" in 2007. Then they were breaking off/postponing the negotiations every time sc2 was being delayed... They made such ridiculous claims from get go. They never had the intentions of the talks getting anywhere. They wanted everything to coincide with the release of sc2. Are you telling me the tyranny of blizzard is better than KeSPA for esports? T___T So far blizzard has been dragging esports down with their stupidity. No LAN? No cross-server play? Shit maps? Suing broadcasters? Threatening to shut down OSL/MSL/PL? I could go on and on... Now who's spouting conspiracy theories and misinformation? Where did you come up with this idea that Blizzard would never co-operate with KESPA and wanted to shut everything down and then ramp SC2 up? And assuming you are right, unfortunately, technically the answer is yes: it is better for ESPORTS for the developers of the games to have the ultimate say in how their game is used. As long as the rights of gaming developers are respected by the ESPORTS community, gaming developers will continue to provide high quality games with reasonable requirements for their use because it is profitable for them to do so. It benefits them economically for ESPORTS to grow and for their games to be used. If their demands are unreasonable after their IP rights are affirmed in court, then the community moves on to another game, or another developer creates a new game after it sees that the market is open for one. That's how the market works. If Blizzard is tyrannical enough about the use of their games, we all go to play a different game. If it doesn't exist, someone makes one. If no company that exists will make one, a new company will be made, because it is profitable to do so. But if their rights aren't respected and they don't have their own IP rights over their own games, then no developer will ever touch ESPORTS again: there will clearly be little to no profit in it for them to put in the enormous time and effort into developing and balancing and patching and updating games for the ESPORTS world. | ||
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maybenexttime
Poland5706 Posts
Delaying negotiations when sc2 gets delayed is a pretty suspicious correlation. Why would any developer need to touch esports? BW as an esport happened by accident, so did WC3, CS and Quake. As soon as developers tried to milk money from "esports" everything went down the shitter... | ||
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xBillehx
United States1289 Posts
(GameTV's creation, OGN's purchase, that KeSPA weaseled away btw. For all the people who have short term memories- refer to here before defending either entity.) And to note: HanBit Soft was the distributer for Korea. A distributer only has rights to sell copies of the game in the area they're in charge of, not broadcast rights, so please stop spreading that bullshit unless you have actual contract text from the Blizzard/HanBit agreement that states so. | ||
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maybenexttime
Poland5706 Posts
On March 05 2011 23:21 xBillehx wrote: The problem with the argument of KeSPA only charging for Proleague is they don't only air their players walking to the booths and celebrating. No one would watch that shit so they air the actual games, ie property of Blizzard, or so the lawsuit remains to question. You guys keep saying they only charge to broadcast the players and whatnot but the reality really is that they're broadcasting the games. Regardless of what happens to the OSL/MSL, they cannot broadcast the Proleague + Show Spoiler + (GameTV's creation, OGN's purchase, that KeSPA weaseled away btw. For all the people who have short term memories- refer to here before defending either entity.) And to note: HanBit Soft was the distributer for Korea. A distributer only has rights to sell copies of the game in the area they're in charge of, not broadcast rights, so please stop spreading that bullshit unless you have actual contract text from the Blizzard/HanBit agreement that states so. Nobody would watch CPU vs. CPU matches either. Both the game and the league are part of the package, and KeSPA agreed to pay for blizzard's part. They, however, did not agree to become blizzard's slaves (which giving up the ownership of everything, including the players' contracts/teams is). The combined ProLeague is very different from its predecessor. I split the two, because they're not charging for BW, but rather PL, unlike OSL or MSL. As for HanBit, MBC official said they had blizzard's approval. Blizzard had plenty of time to address (aka debunk) that claim. | ||
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Lokian
United States699 Posts
On March 05 2011 11:52 Xxavi wrote: So people are saying Blizzard got angry with Kespa asking money. Let's now take a step back and look at other professional sports organizations. Like Spanish or English football leagues. They negotiate the TV money, and then distribute it to professional teams. Now, my question is, KESPA charges money from TV companies and as a non-profit organization, do they distribute this money to pro-teams? Like where does a team get so much money for salaries of their stars? Surely there's TV money? If that is the case, and I am not sure it is, then why people still defend Blizzard? Blizzard doesn't pay the salary of Flash or Bisu, their teams do. And their teams have to earn somehow, and of course that would involve TV deals. If I was wrong here, then I will be glad to listen to the facts. Teams are supported by their sponsors. That's how they get their money. TV money is the illegal thing... I hate to compare this to SC2, but theres teams, theres team leagues, theres big tournaments, heck, they have better living conditions probably. Look at those huge monitors and gaming PC. I don't even have one.  Do they get TV money? I don't think so. Maybe not even prize money.Anyways... Not sure how Kespa pioneered BW. They just caught on when it was getting good and got free money. With free money, you can do a lot of things. If I had free money I would probably make something cool too and have everyone like it and when the repercussions come, the people can defend me since they like me. -_- And... didn't we establish the fact that players are not a property value? Thats what blizz was talking about players rights in their argument. | ||
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