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On February 27 2011 19:14 Liquid`Jinro wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2011 16:18 Blisse wrote:On February 27 2011 16:01 ihavetofartosis wrote:
(4)Shakuras Plateau
This map we decided to remove for a different reason. There isn't a huge problem with this map, but we felt there aren't enough interesting features of this map. The natural expansion is easy to take and defend; there are only two possible attack paths only one of which is generally used, and main bases aren't easy to harass. For a change, we wanted to replace this relatively plain map with something new.
So basically, "We felt like this map usually produced longer, more interesting macro games, and not enough 1-2 base all-ins, so to fix that we removed it so you can have more 1 base all-ins and none of those silly games that go over 15 minutes" This isn't Brood War. Stop implying things from their official statement. You have no idea what were their exact criteria, other than those listed, so it is unfair, rude and blatantly ignorant to suggest that you can speak for them, when they have already spoken. This is not a spectator sport. I don't know what you're talking about. It's a game. They're making it so that certain races won't be imbalanced. Keeping maps with a single entrance does not further their efforts at all. How about trying to develop strategies that make up for the perceived imbalances rather than crying about them for once. Ok, Im gonna be really rude right now: You do not have the slightest clue what you are talking about. The new maps are terrible, and they do not help balance. People sometimes seem to have this strange impression that Brood War games averaged 30 minutes and mined out the map every game after both sides went for a tripple CC before barracks.... The actual average game time on BW maps, despite all these macro maps, was just around 15 minutes.
I noticed this misconception as well. I think it's because of those who didn't play BW just typed "epic BW game" on youtube to see what that game was all about. And hence they see the long game and assume that's how every game was played [:
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I heard a report that the blackwater main ramp can be blocked with 2 2x2 hex buildings. I hope that's not true. Has anyone tried it?
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did some testing with drones to get the travel time in close positions
slag pits travel time close pos
23 sec ramp to ramp
25 sec ramp to natural
Backwater Gulch travel time close pos
30 sec ramp to ramp
30 sec ramp to nat
The shattered Temple travel time close pos
24 sec ramp to ramp (Lost temple 27)
24 sec ramo to natural (Lost temple 27)
Metalopolis travel time close pos
26 sec ramp to ramp
25 sec ramp to nat
this doesn't take into account 3rds and how close is main to nat to spread creep or hows the geometry to set defenses, only simple travel time
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Why is everyone bitching about the new maps? They are better than jungle basin, steppes of war, blistering sands and delta quadrant. So its an improvement overall. A small one, though.
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Every map which has huge difference between spawning close pos or cross pos is a bad map, but seems like blizzard still does not realise that.
On February 27 2011 19:44 Grummler wrote:
Why is everyone bitching about the new maps? They are better than jungle basin, steppes of war, blistering sands and delta quadrant. So its an improvement overall. A small one, though.
I don't see how those maps are better that blistering.
The only decent one is fixed LT.
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i ran new maps a few times against ai, am i right that you can only spawn cross position on backwater gulch and only close(horizontal and vertical) on slag pits?
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On February 27 2011 19:45 Alpina wrote:Every map which has huge difference between spawning close pos or cross pos is a bad map, but seem like blizzard still does not realise that. Show nested quote +On February 27 2011 19:44 Grummler wrote:
Why is everyone bitching about the new maps? They are better than jungle basin, steppes of war, blistering sands and delta quadrant. So its an improvement overall. A small one, though. I don't see how those maps are better that blistering. The only decent one is fixed LT.
I agree, just played slag pits vs terran, how convinent for him that he just can siege push through a narrow passage between his nat and mine.. that is really great.. This goes as my new veto instead of steppes, and of course delta.
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On February 27 2011 19:46 oni_link wrote:
i ran new maps a few times against ai, am i right that you can only spawn cross position on backwater gulch and only close(horizontal and vertical) on slag pits?
i tested with friend yesterday and on both slag pits and gulch u can spawn close pos vertical and horizontal
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On February 27 2011 19:44 Grummler wrote:
Why is everyone bitching about the new maps? They are better than jungle basin, steppes of war, blistering sands and delta quadrant. So its an improvement overall. A small one, though.
Delta quadrant is still in the game, and I definitely prefered jungle basin. Imbalanced, yes, but AT LEAST 2 basing was standard there.
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On February 27 2011 19:44 Grummler wrote:
Why is everyone bitching about the new maps? They are better than jungle basin, steppes of war, blistering sands and delta quadrant. So its an improvement overall. A small one, though.
Close pos on both shattered temple and slag shits is closer than steppes.I think Bliz is asking for trouble when they remove the one map that the pro scene loves, for fictitious reasons.
The new maps are seriously flawed when it comes to close positions, natural defending, securing second expansion. The new maps are superior for early all ins, cheesy high risk - high reward play.
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Well, i still thing these maps are an improvement. I dont see how the new maps can be worse than steppes of war and jungle basin. So we get a good map (new lost temple) and most likely one of the gsl maps in exchange for shakuras. Additionaly we trade some bad maps for new maps, which are most likely bad, but not necessarily. So, from a pure rational point of view, it is an improvment.
On the other hand i do understand why most of you are upset...
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On February 27 2011 19:56 Grummler wrote:
Well, i still thing these maps are an improvement. I dont see how the new maps can be worse than steppes of war and jungle basin. So we get a good map (new lost temple) and most likely one of the gsl maps in exchange for shakuras. Additionaly we trade some bad maps for new maps, which are most likely bad, but not necessarily. So, from a pure rational point of view, it is an improvment.
On the other hand i do understand why most of you are upset...
????? what are you talking about? the maps are out. they are bad. we are saying they are bad because we have played them. blizz is not adding GSL maps and will likely never add them.
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On February 27 2011 19:48 vojnik wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2011 19:46 oni_link wrote:
i ran new maps a few times against ai, am i right that you can only spawn cross position on backwater gulch and only close(horizontal and vertical) on slag pits? i tested with friend yesterday and on both slag pits and gulch u can spawn close pos vertical and horizontal
yeah a friend of me just confirmed that he spawned close on backwater while i had 6 times cross against ai :O
on typhon everything seems possible
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On February 27 2011 19:59 rauk wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2011 19:56 Grummler wrote:
Well, i still thing these maps are an improvement. I dont see how the new maps can be worse than steppes of war and jungle basin. So we get a good map (new lost temple) and most likely one of the gsl maps in exchange for shakuras. Additionaly we trade some bad maps for new maps, which are most likely bad, but not necessarily. So, from a pure rational point of view, it is an improvment.
On the other hand i do understand why most of you are upset... ????? what are you talking about? the maps are out. they are bad. we are saying they are bad because we have played them. blizz is not adding GSL maps and will likely never add them.
????? I played them too !!!!!!
??...!!!
And blizzard said, that they will add a custom made map"currently being used in the GSL". And i dislike how you dont use any reasoning to prove me wrong, but a useless amount of question marks to make sure everyone knows you are a troll.
I never said the new maps are good. But they are still not worse than the old ones. So we trade bad maps for bad maps AND get 2 good maps. Thats fine for me.
+ Show Spoiler +
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If anyone was interested I've posted these changes in video form in a different thread here on the forums. You could add it to the original post here, too, if you like? I think it is just an easier way to have a look at it all and a lot easier to listen to what Blizzard had to say about it. There's also in-game footage and all that, check it out!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t2PFuj1GVVU
New 1v1 / 2v2 Maps - TeamLiquid Forums
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While i would have preferred to see the more macro oriented GSL maps in the pool, I think some of these maps are at least a step in the right direction. Blistering sands, Steppes of War etc needed to go. Pity about Shakuras though, how many insane games have we seen on that map at the GSL? It was definitely a player favorite.
Yeah, i'm not so happy with the lack of easily accessible thirds on these maps but i think we need to give the maps a little time. Also close positions is a bit fail on Slag pits...don't see how that is very macro orientated.
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If you look at the fact that these maps are replacing BS, Steppes and Jungle Basin I'm pretty happy with this change. Playing on new maps is fun! Even though they might not be the best if we give proper feedback to Blizzard they'll be better next time.
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I understand that these maps are better than what they're replacing... but they're still awful -.-
If they're going to cycle new maps into the pool, why not make them good?
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I look forward to testing these out,, but from the looks they seem like an improvement
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I think when you have to consider their aim. They aren't trying to make the map pool more macro orientated. They just want to tweak some of the existing ones to iron out a few flaws and make them more fun.
- Looking at it like this I think it is perfectly reasonable to get rid of Shakuras Plateau. We all had good games there, but maps with only 1 attack path lead to problems with game balance. A lot of people struggle against Protoss Death Balls. Their main weakness is mobility, which is less of an issue of SP. They've replaced it with Typhon Peaks, which looks excellent, has a variety of attack routes and generally looks like an improvement. I whole heartedly expect this to be in the map pack instead of SP for the next GSL.
The replacement of other maps to fix issues are similar:
- Shattered Temple is almost certainly better than Lost Temple for the reasons they stated. It may still contain some of the old rush issues, but it's still an improvement.
- By the same token Backwater Gulch is another good map when compared to Blistering Sands, Lost Temple or Steppes of War. They've replaced 3 rush heavy maps with another more macro intensive map. Yes there are 2 rocks to the natural and a possible 3 entrances, but by the time someone is taking them down you're in the mid game and any use of them is harrasment based and not a cheese rush.
- That said, Slag Pits seems like a mistep. If the map only allowed Cross Positions then there would be no problem. As it is, taking a 3rd looks like a nightmare in close position games.I like the low ground/hard to defend and drop prone gold expansions and especially the backdoor rocks on the natural which are kind of cool IMHO, but I see 3rd problems.
Overall I'm very excited about the new map pool. Anyone who likes macro can now veto Delta Quadrant, Shattered Temple and Slag Pits and is actually in a much better situation than before.
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EPT
