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On May 28 2011 16:11 DiDigital wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2011 16:23 Gulzt wrote:
@Vanick
They already use two systems. If the visual ratingsystem is just a sugar sweet to keep us happy, why not use a basic form of ELO? They have plenty of experience with it (all blizz-online games before starcraft II). And isn't ELO the core of all the new systems that evolved including SC2s hidden rating system?
I'd say, if it's not ELO based, then would it mean they invented something completely different, and why?
The issue remains though, if it's that simple, then if player 1 would gain +12, player two would lose -12.. and that's not always the case.. still I can't shake the idea that it's somehow has to do with ELO, the -24 borders and +12 average is too much of a coincidence.. but the truth is somewhere close, something to do with comparing adjusted points and MMR as Excalibur explained. I am fairly certain that the points system is a mostly generic ELO system that works on top of the more complex (yet ELO based) match making and promotion system. The points system uses a constant 24 point modifier, where as the hidden MMR probably is using a scaling modifier based on the number of games you have played, and potentially your level of activity. The reason points don't always matchup is because the points you earn are based off a comparison of your points to their mmr, and the points they earn is based off your mmr and their points. This means that two different calculations are used to determine points, thus the points will not add up.
Probably the case yes. But what do you mean with:
"The points system uses a constant 24 point modifier".. or is that your discription of the "WeightFactor" ?
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Ya the weight factor is 24, because 24 is the max number of points you can get.
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On May 28 2011 17:59 DiDigital wrote:
Ya the weight factor is 24, because 24 is the max number of points you can get.
Unless they're rounding down the results, than the weight factor could be 25, as with warcraft III.
25 * (1-0.001) = 24,975 .. rounddown = 24.
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wow really awesome, thanks! been wondering how it works for a long long time now 
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Nice post, I´ve been asking myself this since the beta.
Jazz`
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You really made an extraordinarily great thread. Thanks for the time you dedicated to this.
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wow thanks man. very useful :D
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Read through this and the other posts a few times, and it doesn't seem like this one is clarified anywhere (sorry if it's dug in page 1X as I didn't read through everything) ...
Does anyone know approximately how many games the MMR is affected by? A big sort of fear of mine is, as I go serious in learning this game and start laddering, I'll inevitably lose a bunch of games. For how long (# of games) will those losses affect my MMR?
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United States12235 Posts
On June 01 2011 04:02 springtree wrote:
Read through this and the other posts a few times, and it doesn't seem like this one is clarified anywhere (sorry if it's dug in page 1X as I didn't read through everything) ...
Does anyone know approximately how many games the MMR is affected by? A big sort of fear of mine is, as I go serious in learning this game and start laddering, I'll inevitably lose a bunch of games. For how long (# of games) will those losses affect my MMR?
Every game affects MMR. I guess I don't understand the question? MMR is just a number. It increases when you win and decreases when you lose. As it increases, you face tougher opposition. If you're not as good as your opponents, you'll lose until you fall down to a level where you'll be facing people who are considered to be on your level.
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Interesting and impressive, very useful and helps me understand the leagues and rankings more
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On June 01 2011 04:47 Excalibur_Z wrote:
Every game affects MMR. I guess I don't understand the question? MMR is just a number. It increases when you win and decreases when you lose. As it increases, you face tougher opposition. If you're not as good as your opponents, you'll lose until you fall down to a level where you'll be facing people who are considered to be on your level.
Sorry, I'm not explaining myself well. I know people like e.g. ROOT Catz recreated an account because their MMR had been "tainted" by too many losses while goofing around (off-racing, etc), which some say prevented him from getting into GM. Not sure if it's true or not but it got me a bit worried about losing TOO much. 
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Not too sure if this has been asked before, but I have a question.
With the 7 Tiers to Masters for the Diamond league, does that mean it is very difficult or maybe I should say more of a hassle to promote yourself from Diamond to Masters in comparison to something with less Tiers such as Gold to Platinum?
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I have a question about how GM league works. Assuming the GM league offset is ~420 points that means that a lot of the bottom of the NA GM league players are around ~1250 points in masters. Meanwhile, there are about 500 players in masters league above 1250 points.
Does this mean that a majority of those 500 masters players deserve to be in GM and the bottom GM players don't deserve to be in GM, but they are because GM spots are locked and can only be lost due to inactivity? If this is true, that means that the top 200 isn't much of a top 200, right?
P.S. Thanks for being a bastion of evidence based information in this world of ladder misinformation Excalibur_Z! And for having the patience to answer (and reanswer) questions in your threads. I'm sure I speak for the community when I say your work is greatly appreciated.
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United States12235 Posts
On June 01 2011 07:10 springtree wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2011 04:47 Excalibur_Z wrote:
Every game affects MMR. I guess I don't understand the question? MMR is just a number. It increases when you win and decreases when you lose. As it increases, you face tougher opposition. If you're not as good as your opponents, you'll lose until you fall down to a level where you'll be facing people who are considered to be on your level. Sorry, I'm not explaining myself well. I know people like e.g. ROOT Catz recreated an account because their MMR had been "tainted" by too many losses while goofing around (off-racing, etc), which some say prevented him from getting into GM. Not sure if it's true or not but it got me a bit worried about losing TOO much.
He made a new account because he improved at the game since he first created his original account, and he was able to play at a higher level immediately. MMR is very volatile with new accounts because the system doesn't know where you belong since it knows nothing about you, so if CatZ was playing at GM level right off the bat, he's able to solidify his MMR in that region quickly with that new account. His old account could have risen into GM also if he continued to play at that level, it just would have taken a little longer because he would have had to play at that level for as long as the interval of the moving average is.
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United States12235 Posts
On June 01 2011 07:15 Snuggles wrote:
Not too sure if this has been asked before, but I have a question.
With the 7 Tiers to Masters for the Diamond league, does that mean it is very difficult or maybe I should say more of a hassle to promote yourself from Diamond to Masters in comparison to something with less Tiers such as Gold to Platinum?
It depends. I've already mentioned Alejandrisha's smurf account in some other threads, he's a good example. He's a very good player who created a new account to rise up the ladder quickly. He was placed in Plat and he went undefeated and got promoted into Diamond. He actually "overshot" Diamond and so he was put into the highest Diamond tier, and 3 games later he was in Master. For him, the promotion from Diamond to Master was quick because he was only one tier away and his MMR was still volatile since he was literally beating everyone he faced.
Most players get put in the second-lowest Diamond tier. That means that to get into Diamond from Plat, it won't take as many games as it might to get from there into Master. They have to work through 5 Diamond tiers before they can get into Master first, but because you can't get promoted laterally within a league, they just stay in their division until they change leagues.
So, in most cases, yes. There are some circumstances where it may take longer initially to get placed in a league, but that could instead be a clue that you're closer to the next highest league than if your promotion had happened sooner.
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United States12235 Posts
On June 01 2011 07:20 Cambam wrote:
I have a question about how GM league works. Assuming the GM league offset is ~420 points that means that a lot of the bottom of the NA GM league players are around ~1250 points in masters. Meanwhile, there are about 500 players in masters league above 1250 points.
Does this mean that a majority of those 500 masters players deserve to be in GM and the bottom GM players don't deserve to be in GM, but they are because GM spots are locked and can only be lost due to inactivity? If this is true, that means that the top 200 isn't much of a top 200, right?
P.S. Thanks for being a bastion of evidence based information in this world of ladder misinformation Excalibur_Z! And for having the patience to answer (and reanswer) questions in your threads. I'm sure I speak for the community when I say your work is greatly appreciated.
Points don't necessarily equate to MMR. I know there were definitely some surprises when people saw who was getting promoted to GM and who wasn't. MMR is going to be the more reliable indicator of skill, we just look at points because that's the only thing that's visible.
It will be forever debatable whether the bottom GM players "deserve" their spots, but it's inevitable that spots in GM will open up. When that happens, it only matters who the #1 Master player is in terms of MMR.
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Thanks for the explanation Excalibur, that cleared things up for me.
I am also curious about what you're background is. Like what'd you go to school for to be able to come up with a thread like this. If you say Info systems or Computer science then I've got a whole lot of work ahead of me if I have to do similar types of work at your level....
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United States12235 Posts
On June 01 2011 08:00 Snuggles wrote:
Thanks for the explanation Excalibur, that cleared things up for me.
I am also curious about what you're background is. Like what'd you go to school for to be able to come up with a thread like this. If you say Info systems or Computer science then I've got a whole lot of work ahead of me if I have to do similar types of work at your level....
My highest level of math education is high school calculus and I never took a statistics course in college (it probably shows). Vanick was a CS major in college though so he was able to explain to me about things like normal distributions and how similar systems like TrueSkill operate. I read some more about Glicko and Elo systems and we both had a chance to talk to the lead designer at Blizzcon. I went to school for graphic design =)
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On June 01 2011 07:23 Excalibur_Z wrote:
He made a new account because he improved at the game since he first created his original account, and he was able to play at a higher level immediately. MMR is very volatile with new accounts because the system doesn't know where you belong since it knows nothing about you, so if CatZ was playing at GM level right off the bat, he's able to solidify his MMR in that region quickly with that new account. His old account could have risen into GM also if he continued to play at that level, it just would have taken a little longer because he would have had to play at that level for as long as the interval of the moving average is.
Thanks a lot for taking the time, man. You rock!
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Is it possible that the division modifiers have been reset as well? Like instead of +63, they are something else? I was looking at some master ranked players graphs that got promoted after season 1 ended and it seems as if the modifier is +64 i got +128 for one and +64 for the other after doing (Points in Diamond) - (Points in Masters) - 150 and then finding a common denominator. Although the -150 could also have been changed to a different number :\
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EPT
