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United States12273 Posts
On June 06 2011 21:19 The-EliTe wrote:
Ok i had a weird problem after my recent promotion to diamond. In every game after my promotion that I played, I would be slightly favoured against all my opponents but they would all be in high diamond/low masters. I barely won and eventually that wore off but why was it doing that in the first place?
It's a known bug, and something they plan to address via hotfix in the not too distant future.
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On June 01 2011 08:37 Excalibur_Z wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2011 08:00 Snuggles wrote:
Thanks for the explanation Excalibur, that cleared things up for me.
I am also curious about what you're background is. Like what'd you go to school for to be able to come up with a thread like this. If you say Info systems or Computer science then I've got a whole lot of work ahead of me if I have to do similar types of work at your level.... My highest level of math education is high school calculus and I never took a statistics course in college (it probably shows). Vanick was a CS major in college though so he was able to explain to me about things like normal distributions and how similar systems like TrueSkill operate. I read some more about Glicko and Elo systems and we both had a chance to talk to the lead designer at Blizzcon. I went to school for graphic design =)
They are using glicko? Really?
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oh ok thanks  glad to know im not the only one
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this is so far the most ridiculous guide ever, by that i mean super awesome.
I have a question. I'm 1v1 Plat, I did placement matches 2v2 and got silver. After 5 straight win match in Silver league, i got Gold, continue the streak for 2 more games, I got Plat again. I had ~200 points when I got to Platinum, that's kinda weird, is it? Is 1v1's level affecting the other leagues?
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United States12273 Posts
On June 07 2011 17:20 minhchi1211 wrote:
this is so far the most ridiculous guide ever, by that i mean super awesome.
I have a question. I'm 1v1 Plat, I did placement matches 2v2 and got silver. After 5 straight win match in Silver league, i got Gold, continue the streak for 2 more games, I got Plat again. I had ~200 points when I got to Platinum, that's kinda weird, is it? Is 1v1's level affecting the other leagues?
Well, what kind of 2v2? If you were playing with someone in Silver or Bronze then it follows how you might get placed in Silver. Also, initial placement is intentionally conservative (you're usually placed lower than you should be). By outperforming those leagues you'll get promoted fairly quickly. Your 1v1 MMR does impact the opponents you face in your first game, but your 2v2 MMR diverges independently after that.
Of course, the amount of points you had after promotion is simple: 73 + spent bonus pool.
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On June 06 2011 21:19 The-EliTe wrote:
Ok i had a weird problem after my recent promotion to diamond. In every game after my promotion that I played, I would be slightly favoured against all my opponents but they would all be in high diamond/low masters. I barely won and eventually that wore off but why was it doing that in the first place?
I have had this same problem for a while now, (the past 20 games in a row has put me favored or slightly favored) and I wanted to know how long it took for yours to wear off; I have not won all the games as I had a small loosing spree and some unlucky losses but I don't know if that matters.
first post
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On June 08 2011 15:32 Firevampants wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2011 21:19 The-EliTe wrote:
Ok i had a weird problem after my recent promotion to diamond. In every game after my promotion that I played, I would be slightly favoured against all my opponents but they would all be in high diamond/low masters. I barely won and eventually that wore off but why was it doing that in the first place? I have had this same problem for a while now, (the past 20 games in a row has put me favored or slightly favored) and I wanted to know how long it took for yours to wear off; I have not won all the games as I had a small loosing spree and some unlucky losses but I don't know if that matters. first post
I don't think it is going to wear off until they patch it, until then even if you go 50/50 I think your points will go down and down. I might be wrong though.
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so you can skip leagues? ive been on a pretty good win streak for the last week how come i havnt been promoted is it becase my moving average hasnt stabalized
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Thanks for previous answer, now I have new question
Based on what was said in OP:
When AT team is created, initial MMR (even before placement) is based on previous results of that players (in specific mode or does it take other modes in accout?) - so for example 4 Master 4v4 players will have ~Master MMR before their first match - correct? They will play their placement against Masters and it will be quite easy (3-2 is enuf) to get to Masters.
Now after they finish placement, their adjusted points = 0. Which means that every team they will play against will be favored right?
If they play against 4 diamond players who have like 10% chance to win (and system knows that, based on MMR), diamond team will still get -20 for loss and +2 for hardest win ever.. is this correct?
Also how exactly is favored status decided during placement matches (in 1v1 for someone who never played before and against AT that play lets say 2nd game but players have some history)?
Thks
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On June 08 2011 16:13 Demonace34 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2011 15:32 Firevampants wrote:On June 06 2011 21:19 The-EliTe wrote:
Ok i had a weird problem after my recent promotion to diamond. In every game after my promotion that I played, I would be slightly favoured against all my opponents but they would all be in high diamond/low masters. I barely won and eventually that wore off but why was it doing that in the first place? I have had this same problem for a while now, (the past 20 games in a row has put me favored or slightly favored) and I wanted to know how long it took for yours to wear off; I have not won all the games as I had a small loosing spree and some unlucky losses but I don't know if that matters. first post I don't think it is going to wear off until they patch it, until then even if you go 50/50 I think your points will go down and down. I might be wrong though.
I don't think that is correct. You are right that your points will drop as you go 50/50, but not forever. The problem is that you are in the wrong tier, so your adjusted points will drop and drop, going into the negative region. Once your adjusted points get low enough that they match the tier where your MMR is, you should see even matches again. I don't know how many games that would take, it depends on how many tiers off you are from your MMR.
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On June 08 2011 17:52 Sek-Kuar wrote:
Now after they finish placement, their adjusted points = 0. Which means that every team they will play against will be favored right?
Not necessarily every game (because they could be matched with a team that has a MMR corresponding to less than 0 pts master), but they will probably see most teams slightly favoured or favoured for the first few games (teams that have equal MMR to them, until their points catch up to their MMR).
If they play against 4 diamond players who have like 10% chance to win (and system knows that, based on MMR), diamond team will still get -20 for loss and +2 for hardest win ever.. is this correct?
No. Assuming this diamond team is not about to be promoted, the points of the diamond team will be lower than the MMR of the masters team, so the diamond team will see the masters team as slightly favoured or favoured and will not lose many points. In this case, since the masters team points (masters 0) are still higher than diamond teams MMR, the masters team will see itself as favoured or slightly favoured.
However, what I think you are trying to ask is whether one team being favoured due to 0 points after placement is unfair for their opponents. The answer is no, because the favoured status seen by each team do not always match. Read this section in the first post again. That masters team you are thinking about, let's say they face another master's team with the same MMR who are also just out of placement and have 0 points. They will both see their opponents as being (slightly) favoured.
Also how exactly is favored status decided during placement matches (in 1v1 for someone who never played before and against AT that play lets say 2nd game but players have some history)?
Thks
I dunno. That's a good question. If someone new buys the game and has no game history at all and plays a placement match, how does the game decide how many points the persons opponent will win or lose for that match?
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If someone new buys the game and has no game history at all and plays a placement match, how does the game decide how many points the persons opponent will win or lose for that match?
It is still based on their points vs. your MMR. You begin with an MMR at some level, not zero. The uncertainty will be high until you've played a number of games, but I think the calculation uses the uncertainty to moderate the points awarded, so no one is penalised for playing new players (at least points wise).
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Really good post. I think the only post in the internet that is this detailed and informative. I'm happy to finally get a good understanding of how promotion works, because with MMR and rankings in division, it's hard to know exactly how promotion actually works! +1
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@Kyamo: thx for anwers, however I realized we both have it wrong 
AT points = 0, and it compares that with enemy (dimaond) MMR - so they will see diamond team as favored and get more points (or maybe even if that is very low diamond, not very likely though).
However diamond team points are direct compared to only masters team MMR, so it should not be affected at all by fact they have 0 points.
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On June 08 2011 21:03 Kyamo wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2011 16:13 Demonace34 wrote:On June 08 2011 15:32 Firevampants wrote:On June 06 2011 21:19 The-EliTe wrote:
Ok i had a weird problem after my recent promotion to diamond. In every game after my promotion that I played, I would be slightly favoured against all my opponents but they would all be in high diamond/low masters. I barely won and eventually that wore off but why was it doing that in the first place? I have had this same problem for a while now, (the past 20 games in a row has put me favored or slightly favored) and I wanted to know how long it took for yours to wear off; I have not won all the games as I had a small loosing spree and some unlucky losses but I don't know if that matters. first post I don't think it is going to wear off until they patch it, until then even if you go 50/50 I think your points will go down and down. I might be wrong though. I don't think that is correct. You are right that your points will drop as you go 50/50, but not forever. The problem is that you are in the wrong tier, so your adjusted points will drop and drop, going into the negative region. Once your adjusted points get low enough that they match the tier where your MMR is, you should see even matches again. I don't know how many games that would take, it depends on how many tiers off you are from your MMR.
Since the points reset to 73(+ bonus pool) after promotion does this mean I need to get to something like -100- points before I get even matches again. If this is the case losing matches would be the fastest way but I don't want to purposely lose too many matches or just lose too many in general and risk a fast demotion. I'm confused as to why the system would want me to lose points in the first place instead of just putting me where it wants me to be.
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United States12273 Posts
On June 09 2011 08:41 Firevampants wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2011 21:03 Kyamo wrote:On June 08 2011 16:13 Demonace34 wrote:On June 08 2011 15:32 Firevampants wrote:On June 06 2011 21:19 The-EliTe wrote:
Ok i had a weird problem after my recent promotion to diamond. In every game after my promotion that I played, I would be slightly favoured against all my opponents but they would all be in high diamond/low masters. I barely won and eventually that wore off but why was it doing that in the first place? I have had this same problem for a while now, (the past 20 games in a row has put me favored or slightly favored) and I wanted to know how long it took for yours to wear off; I have not won all the games as I had a small loosing spree and some unlucky losses but I don't know if that matters. first post I don't think it is going to wear off until they patch it, until then even if you go 50/50 I think your points will go down and down. I might be wrong though. I don't think that is correct. You are right that your points will drop as you go 50/50, but not forever. The problem is that you are in the wrong tier, so your adjusted points will drop and drop, going into the negative region. Once your adjusted points get low enough that they match the tier where your MMR is, you should see even matches again. I don't know how many games that would take, it depends on how many tiers off you are from your MMR. Since the points reset to 73(+ bonus pool) after promotion does this mean I need to get to something like -100- points before I get even matches again. If this is the case losing matches would be the fastest way but I don't want to purposely lose too many matches or just lose too many in general and risk a fast demotion. I'm confused as to why the system would want me to lose points in the first place instead of just putting me where it wants me to be.
SDream seems to have a pretty solid explanation which sounds pretty plausible, and that's that league changes are putting you into the highest division tier as opposed to the second-lowest division tier that they used to. You're earning points as you would a high-tier player, but you're not a high-tier player, so your points sink. He thinks this is happening for all leagues, not just Diamond, but people just don't notice it because none of the other leagues that you can get promoted into cover as large a skill range. For Bronze it probably wouldn't be noticeable because you can only get demoted into it, and the highest Bronze tier borders the lowest Silver tier (also the highest Bronze tier should have the highest population anyway because that's where the player population curve has the highest density, and it would be equally difficult to notice for Silver and Gold).
This doesn't seem to be affecting people who are initially placed in a league or who are placed after playing their Season 2 placement match, it seems to only affect league changes.
So to answer your question, losing matches won't help most likely because it won't be enough to counteract the effect of the division tiers (maybe one tier at most due to the 73 adjusted point reset, but that's it).
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ok thanks. Ill just ignore it then and see what happens
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On June 09 2011 03:13 Sek-Kuar wrote:@Kyamo: thx for anwers, however I realized we both have it wrong AT points = 0, and it compares that with enemy (dimaond) MMR - so they will see diamond team as favored and get more points (or maybe even if that is very low diamond, not very likely though).
No. It does compare your teams points with the enemy MMR, but if you have zero points in masters, that is still higher than teams in diamond (assuming they really have diamond MMR and are not close to promotion). Because of the points offset between leagues and between tiers, 0 points doesn't mean the same thing in every league. They would not see a team with diamond MMR as favoured.
However diamond team points are direct compared to only masters team MMR, so it should not be affected at all by fact they have 0 points.
Yes, that part is right.
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On June 08 2011 22:14 Spirit09 wrote:Show nested quote +If someone new buys the game and has no game history at all and plays a placement match, how does the game decide how many points the persons opponent will win or lose for that match? It is still based on their points vs. your MMR. You begin with an MMR at some level, not zero. The uncertainty will be high until you've played a number of games, but I think the calculation uses the uncertainty to moderate the points awarded, so no one is penalised for playing new players (at least points wise).
Yeah, I guess you must begin with a MMR at some level, but what level? I do not think you are correct about the uncertainty changing the points awarded, though. But I have no evidence.
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United States12273 Posts
On June 09 2011 10:22 Kyamo wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2011 22:14 Spirit09 wrote:If someone new buys the game and has no game history at all and plays a placement match, how does the game decide how many points the persons opponent will win or lose for that match? It is still based on their points vs. your MMR. You begin with an MMR at some level, not zero. The uncertainty will be high until you've played a number of games, but I think the calculation uses the uncertainty to moderate the points awarded, so no one is penalised for playing new players (at least points wise). Yeah, I guess you must begin with a MMR at some level, but what level? I do not think you are correct about the uncertainty changing the points awarded, though. But I have no evidence.
Probably mid-Gold.
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EPT
