EPTDid you watch July vs MVP? That was a pretty convincing showcase of their prowess.
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If you have criticism, you need to address the content, not the hosts. Idra and Artosis are 2 (1.5) Zerg players, but you can't point that out and then blanket them as biased. Respond to the content. You can't tell them to "get 2 Terran and Protoss players". That's fucking obtuse advice. "Yo just get 4 more high level players to record with you." Yes, I think everyone sees the value in getting it, but it's not practical. Respond to the content and use evidence / logic to back up your claims. | ||
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drgonzhere
United States447 Posts
Did you watch July vs MVP? That was a pretty convincing showcase of their prowess. | ||
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Yergidy
United States2107 Posts
On December 08 2011 12:51 Bagi wrote: You forget that 1) each snipe has to be cast manually and 2) ghosts can't just snipe 8 times in the course of one second, theres a cooldown invoved. You have to manually click 120 times (!) to kill all ultras - can you actually do that before they reach the ghosts? Ghosts with snipe make for good support, but they alone will never kill stuff fast enough in a direct fight. Its about as likely as 15 infestors killing an entire army with fungals. Now that I think of it, I would love to see the DPS of a ghost constantly sniping. I doubt its more than a siege tank in siege mode, or an immortal firing at an armored target. Plus you can only snipe a few times until you run out of energy. 1) not completely manually, if you have a group of ghosts you just need to press the hotkey and click the ultra and the smart-cast will do the rest, not as hard as you make it out to be2) the cool-down is minuscule and doesn't make it harder in any way to spam when you have a group of ghosts 3) yes you can snipe out everything before taking any important amount of damage, MVP vs. July metalopolis game GSL, forgot what month. | ||
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EMPaThy789
New Zealand878 Posts
On December 08 2011 12:51 Bagi wrote: You forget that 1) each snipe has to be cast manually and 2) ghosts can't just snipe 8 times in the course of one second, theres a cooldown invoved. You have to manually click 120 times (!) to kill all ultras - can you actually do that before they reach the ghosts? Ghosts with snipe make for good support, but they alone will never kill stuff fast enough in a direct fight. Its about as likely as 15 infestors killing an entire army with fungals. Now that I think of it, I would love to see the DPS of a ghost constantly sniping. I doubt its more than a siege tank in siege mode, or an immortal firing at an armored target. Plus you can only snipe a few times until you run out of energy. even if u have to click them 10 times, u can still do it before the engagement due to scans. this is especially lame to face in pvt as the terran can just scan your army, que up snipes and forget about hts altogether. terran players have gotten better at seeing the observer blur so u usually dont see it coming, the terran army is usually hanging around a turret lategame anyway so your observer cant close in. | ||
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Bagi
Germany6799 Posts
On December 08 2011 13:08 Yergidy wrote: 1) not completely manually, if you have a group of ghosts you just need to press the hotkey and click the ultra and the smart-cast will do the rest, not as hard as you make it out to be2) the cool-down is minuscule and doesn't make it harder in any way to spam when you have a group of ghosts 3) yes you can snipe out everything before taking any important amount of damage, MVP vs. July metalopolis game GSL, forgot what month. Each snipe click is still manual, and the cooldown is long enough to matter. Simply put: you will NEVER kill 11 a-moving ultralisks before they can reach you. The MVP vs July game I just re-watched bits of it, the legendary ultra vs ghost part was a bunch of ultralisks moving back and forth, afraid to engage a bunch of ghosts with marine and medivac support. Ghosts are great when you 1) are allowed to fight from a range and 2) have support for them, I never denied that. Ghosts alone do not decimate zerg armies, thats ridiculous. | ||
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Blizzard_torments_me
Romania199 Posts
On December 08 2011 13:08 drgonzhere wrote: Did you watch July vs MVP? That was a pretty convincing showcase of their prowess. So if it's not one thing it's another. I'm really getting sick of this Terran OP crap over and over again. It's just simply retarded. Nothing is wrong with snipe, nothing was wrong with EMP either, but Protoss got it in their heads that Archons should work vs Terran. | ||
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Yergidy
United States2107 Posts
On December 08 2011 13:33 Blizzard_torments_me wrote: So if it's not one thing it's another. I'm really getting sick of this Terran OP crap over and over again. It's just simply retarded. Nothing is wrong with snipe, nothing was wrong with EMP either, but Protoss got it in their heads that Archons should work vs Terran. So instead of coming back with a counter point you wine and complain that everyone is picking on Terran? On December 08 2011 13:20 Bagi wrote: Each snipe click is still manual, and the cooldown is long enough to matter. Simply put: you will NEVER kill 11 a-moving ultralisks before they can reach you. The MVP vs July game I just re-watched bits of it, the legendary ultra vs ghost part was a bunch of ultralisks moving back and forth, afraid to engage a bunch of ghosts with marine and medivac support. Ghosts are great when you 1) are allowed to fight from a range and 2) have support for them, I never denied that. Ghosts alone do not decimate zerg armies, thats ridiculous. But the cooldown doesn't matter because another 2 ghosts can snipe in the time it takes for the cooldown to ware off. Ghosts can tank ultras while they finish the few remaining ones with their psionic type armor and still come out way ahead. I wouldn't be surprised if you didn't even lose 1 ghost. | ||
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Bagi
Germany6799 Posts
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docvoc
United States5491 Posts
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nick1689
Australia494 Posts
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SafeAsCheese
United States4924 Posts
On December 08 2011 14:02 docvoc wrote: this opinion on the collosus is rediculous. They never mentioned the HUGE glaring issues with the collosus, the collosus takes a long time to produce, its strength relies on direct combat, but the other races don't always like that. collosus isn't very mobile so dropping and harrassing is made much easier. Also Idra greatly exaggerated the power of such timing pushes, yes protoss can get Ups out earlier but only in an FFE or gate forge build which is either super passive or super aggressive, no aristotle's golden mean there. Collosus on 1 robo isn't bad, but its slow and has a large period between where toss is on 3-4 base and maxed and when zerg is on 3-4-5 base and maxed. That makes a world of difference. This thread was made back when 1.2 was out and players like Cruncher were doing 3 base colossus turtle on old shakuras and winning shit, before infestors were buffed  | ||
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docvoc
United States5491 Posts
On December 08 2011 14:09 SafeAsCheese wrote: This thread was made back when 1.2 was out and players like Cruncher were doing 3 base colossus turtle on old shakuras and winning shit, before infestors were buffed now i feel really, really obtuse, thanks haha i probably should edit out my statement so i don't look dumb XD | ||
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Yergidy
United States2107 Posts
On December 08 2011 13:59 Bagi wrote: Well since the manual/cooldown aspect doesn't seem like a big deal to you, why not try it in a unit tester and tell us how it went? 15 ghosts against 11 ultras a-moving towards them, please don't abuse terrain or such. Me trying it wouldn't be fair as I probably would be biased and not clicking fast enough or something. I would not be the best one to do this, a terran player would. Maybe I am over reacting about the numbers, but the problems are still there at the core. I would be interested to see it tho. | ||
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TrickyGilligan
United States641 Posts
Is this coming back for sure, or is it still just a possibility? Going to get popcorn either way, just curious :p | ||
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killerdog
Denmark6522 Posts
And secondly, with amazing control, mass ghosts are sort of ridiculous. example: GSPA lower finals, darkforce vs MVP Was a while since i watched it but from what i remember from minute 43 or something MVP isn't mining and just has around 40 ghosts on some high ground, and despite that it takes 4 or so maxed zerg armies to kill those 40 ghosts, almost ending in a draw despite the zerg mining out the rest of the map. That kind of cost effeciency is slightly stupid. link http://blip.tv/day9tv/gspa-pro-lower-finals-atndarkforce-vs-immvp-game-1-5614977 Edit: to clarify, the problem i see is that snipe is something which only scales with the skill of the user, and there is nothing the opponent can really do to negate its effects. Things like this arn't really good for a game like starcraft where you want every situation to be a test of skill between two players, where whichever player micros better wins, not where whether or not you win a battle being solely dependant on your opponent being bad. A compareable ability is Forcefield due to the fact its effectiveness is based only on how good you are at placing them, the opponent cant "unplace" them or some other comparable micro to cancel them out, (such as when a terran splits his marines, you can then counter that by splitting your banelings against individual marines if you are good enough) However forcefield doesn't destroy games because there are units which counter them, namely massive units. So if your opponent is relying on forcefields you can use a thor or w/e to counter that by crushing them. I think of the way snipe works as compareable to a situation where you have forcefields which are harder to cast but can't be destroyed, a mechanic which if you do well there is nothing the other player can do. | ||
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Entropic
Canada2837 Posts
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Yoshi Kirishima
United States10366 Posts
On December 08 2011 13:08 Yergidy wrote: 1) not completely manually, if you have a group of ghosts you just need to press the hotkey and click the ultra and the smart-cast will do the rest, not as hard as you make it out to be2) the cool-down is minuscule and doesn't make it harder in any way to spam when you have a group of ghosts 3) yes you can snipe out everything before taking any important amount of damage, MVP vs. July metalopolis game GSL, forgot what month. Yup this is right, if you practice you should be able to shoot those 120 snipes in 10 seconds max. 120 snipes is enough to kill 10 ultralisks or so, which is QUITE good considering your tanks will already be smashing them from afar. What's important is that they are melee units so the more you can reduce their number, the weaker their attack will be (and it is an exponential function too). | ||
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Sabu113
United States11076 Posts
On December 08 2011 13:20 Bagi wrote: Each snipe click is still manual, and the cooldown is long enough to matter. Simply put: you will NEVER kill 11 a-moving ultralisks before they can reach you. The MVP vs July game I just re-watched bits of it, the legendary ultra vs ghost part was a bunch of ultralisks moving back and forth, afraid to engage a bunch of ghosts with marine and medivac support. Ghosts are great when you 1) are allowed to fight from a range and 2) have support for them, I never denied that. Ghosts alone do not decimate zerg armies, thats ridiculous. Ghosts decimate the high cost units of zerg for mana while being very durable and difficult take out in their own right (most durable caster). Ontop of that they have features other casters dont have such as a direct attack and a cloak (which still allows the use of any ability unlike burrow) You can't have an army of most HTs with some other tech walking about. You can have a heavy cost composition army and be alright. Ghosts are hands down the strongest caster. I think a better defense of ghosts would be discussing the overall options and needs for ghosts in the matchup to deal with superhigh tech. Why don't 10 range vikings cut it? Are they expensive enough to be sufficiently difficult to mass that it's perfectly fair that at certain stages you just die to mass ghost. (200/200 +3 tank armies BW) The emp nerf was badly needed. Badly. A snipe change... It seems really really frustrating right now, but I am wondering how I I would respond in BW to seeing hordes of science vessels, which were more mobile, floating about an irradiating ultras and defilers. That always seemed reasonable. Scourge did a decent job at sniping some vessels but it wasnt something you could shut down. Ofc Irradiate takes time to kill a unit etc.... but it's interesting food for thought in that debate. | ||
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Enchanted
United States1609 Posts
On December 08 2011 13:33 Blizzard_torments_me wrote: So if it's not one thing it's another. I'm really getting sick of this Terran OP crap over and over again. It's just simply retarded. Nothing is wrong with snipe, nothing was wrong with EMP either, but Protoss got it in their heads that Archons should work vs Terran. I agree.. they should have just taken archons out of the game and let ghosts be able to emp ht's before they could be fedback, fuck balance i'm terran and you should have to deal with it! :D | ||
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rEalGuapo
Germany832 Posts
On December 08 2011 13:33 Blizzard_torments_me wrote: So if it's not one thing it's another. I'm really getting sick of this Terran OP crap over and over again. It's just simply retarded. Nothing is wrong with snipe, nothing was wrong with EMP either, but Protoss got it in their heads that Archons should work vs Terran. Yeah Archons shouldn't work, Carriers get removed, Templars and Sentries shouldn't work, neither should Immortals. Stalkers already suck, phoenix get EMPed too. Leaves us with a Colossi Zealot army.... So you suggest that Terran should not have to build more than Vikings and Ghosts to defeat Protoss.... (Ghost DPS is incredible vs Zeals) | ||
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Hypemeup
Sweden2783 Posts
As for Ghosts vs Zergs, they just need to stop not making banelings vs ghosts, seriously. | ||
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