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If you have criticism, you need to address the content, not the hosts. Idra and Artosis are 2 (1.5) Zerg players, but you can't point that out and then blanket them as biased. Respond to the content. You can't tell them to "get 2 Terran and Protoss players". That's fucking obtuse advice. "Yo just get 4 more high level players to record with you." Yes, I think everyone sees the value in getting it, but it's not practical. Respond to the content and use evidence / logic to back up your claims. | ||
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IMPrime
United States715 Posts
BLs/ultras = snipe Infestors = EMP, snipe mutas = regular attack, snipe hydras = lawl You need lings or roaches to overrun ghosts, but the ghosts won't be alone either. 100 HP with medivac healing is pretty sturdy as well when they don't take bonus damage. This is just theoretical though. It isn't often that a tvz goes so lategame that mass ghosts is viable, and in the few games I've watched, the zerg made plenty of mistakes (like mvp vs july where he derped his ultras). | ||
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ThePlayer33
Australia2378 Posts
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Baobab
Korea (South)153 Posts
They counter BLs, Ultras, Infestors, and Mutas, nuke is awesome harass late-game when the Z has a ton of bases, and cloak makes it tough to kill them (they can snipe overseers/EMP infestors sooo damn quickly). With good micro, I'd say the odds in the late-game are heavily stacked in the Ghost-wielding T's favor. I'd like to see them unable to snipe ultralisks, that way they dont counter ALL Z T3 and Z doesn't get the feeling of, "Wow, nothing I have can beat Ghosts." Banelings aren't even that good - iirc Ghosts aren't considered light units, and Terran will usually still have a decent number of tanks on the field. T still has Marauders as a great counter to Ultras. Just my 2 cents. | ||
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secretary bird
447 Posts
I can say that I'm almost positive that lings, blings and roaches are extremely good against them and ultras are not really hard countered by them at all if you get a good engagement. Infestors can maybe use neural to EMP the ghosts but that is somewhat luck dependant. Also a tank, ghost army lacks mobility and can be abused by the fast zerg units. | ||
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Xorphene
United Kingdom492 Posts
On December 08 2011 13:59 Bagi wrote: Well since the manual/cooldown aspect doesn't seem like a big deal to you, why not try it in a unit tester and tell us how it went? 15 ghosts against 11 ultras a-moving towards them, please don't abuse terrain or such. Me trying it wouldn't be fair as I probably would be biased and not clicking fast enough or something. Apart from, a 15 ghost vs 11 ultra composition in a unit tester is in no way applicable to a combat scenario in a 1v1. Don't be so obtuse. Add in tank/marine support, good ghost control and 15 ghosts will obliterate the ultras. Cloak support + scan from a good terran means your detection is sniped first. There are numerous games that have been on streams, Avilo has done it, Trump has done it - lost games become wins because of ghost utility. | ||
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On December 08 2011 19:08 Baobab wrote: I play Zerg so I might be slightly biased, but I do feel that Ghosts are slightly overpowered. They counter BLs, Ultras, Infestors, and Mutas, nuke is awesome harass late-game when the Z has a ton of bases, and cloak makes it tough to kill them (they can snipe overseers/EMP infestors sooo damn quickly). With good micro, I'd say the odds in the late-game are heavily stacked in the Ghost-wielding T's favor. I'd like to see them unable to snipe ultralisks, that way they dont counter ALL Z T3 and Z doesn't get the feeling of, "Wow, nothing I have can beat Ghosts." Banelings aren't even that good - iirc Ghosts aren't considered light units, and Terran will usually still have a decent number of tanks on the field. T still has Marauders as a great counter to Ultras. Just my 2 cents. Given the strength of Zerg instant massive tech switches by lategame, Terrans need some kind of multipurpose unit who's able to deal with your two tier3 paths (Marines don't do that well against Ultralisks, and though they would be OK against Broodlord alone, they usually can't fight Broodlords head-on because of Infestor support). It's true that Marauders are a great counter to Ultras, but they're not efficient supply against ling/broodling if you switch to Broodlords; same goes for Vikings if you switch to Ultras after the Broodlords went down. | ||
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HiSi
United States68 Posts
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Amlitzer
United States471 Posts
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Serpest
United States603 Posts
So ghosts are pretty good. HOWEVER; I say keep them as they currently are. T has really only recently begun using ghosts so I think we should hold off the balance talk until Z's and P's have figured a way to metagame the unit & its army compositions. Hopefully more T's use ghost play so we Z's and P's can learn how to effectively play against them. | ||
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neoghaleon55
United States7435 Posts
On December 08 2011 18:52 IMPrime wrote: The problem with ghosts tvz is that they hard or soft counter literally all of zergs high tech. BLs/ultras = snipe Infestors = EMP, snipe mutas = regular attack, snipe hydras = lawl You need lings or roaches to overrun ghosts, but the ghosts won't be alone either. 100 HP with medivac healing is pretty sturdy as well when they don't take bonus damage. This is just theoretical though. It isn't often that a tvz goes so lategame that mass ghosts is viable, and in the few games I've watched, the zerg made plenty of mistakes (like mvp vs july where he derped his ultras). Have you tried Ultrabanes? DRG is my hero. He ultrabane roll over ghosts. Go ahead, snipe that baneling...there's about 40 more of those coming. I'm basically tired of zergs complaining about ghosts when they refuse to use ultrabanes. and I play zerg -_- | ||
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Lorch
Germany3690 Posts
Ghost would be an obvious choice, countering most of protoss and all of zerg tier 3 should be enough to get both of them in a good complain mood. | ||
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NKsc2
Sweden133 Posts
 I know it's getting adressed in HotS but until then? But then again, you can only talk about Terran and Protoss imbalances because IdrA would never admit Zerg is the OP race for once, lol. | ||
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Chaosvuistje
Netherlands2581 Posts
On December 08 2011 20:10 neoghaleon55 wrote: Have you tried Ultrabanes? DRG is my hero. He ultrabane roll over ghosts. Go ahead, snipe that baneling...there's about 40 more of those coming. I'm basically tired of zergs complaining about ghosts when they refuse to use ultrabanes. and I play zerg -_- A thousand times this. Ultralisk/Bane transitions just disallow the Terran to ever get their Ghost pack going, and if they do a few baneling hits will take care of them easily. An engagement with Ultra-bane is so extremely chaotic that it is hard to keep track of every moving thing and keep your marines spread/ghosts spread out AND sniping. A part of my soul breaks off and burns every time a pro zerg goes Ultralisk/Infestor/Ling and loses their army while they have Baneling speed upgraded, and the LR goes 'lol you build ultra's you lose'. It's rediculous. I for one don't find Ghosts to be overpowered, just a unit that Terran NEEDS to be able to deal with an Ultralisk to Broodlord techswitch which otherwise would ALWAYS be game-ending. | ||
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Bulkers
Poland509 Posts
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MorroW
Sweden3522 Posts
On December 08 2011 17:51 Entropic wrote: This talk of mass ghosts in lategame tvz... have any of you seen I think DRG recently and July on his stream, just mixing in banes with ultras. High ghost count means either low tank count or low marine count, cant have all three. yes maybe but its funny if you think about lategame tvz, terrans might have very low scv count cause of mule mechanic i think thats the main reason why terran seem to win the 200 fight pretty convincingly if it gets to that point. zerg just needs to stop terran from getting 200 food with only 20 scvs and then the fight will be much much closer On December 08 2011 20:29 Bulkers wrote: Please tell me this show will not reopen since Idra is in Korea... Nothing good come from that show, it unleashed shitstorm in community and thats not what most people want... it probably wont because theres nothing thats obvious imba or broken in the game right now. the hot topic now is more about the luck in the game and design problems | ||
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Meff
Italy287 Posts
On December 08 2011 19:38 TheDwf wrote: Given the strength of Zerg instant massive tech switches by lategame, Terrans need some kind of multipurpose unit who's able to deal with your two tier3 paths (Marines don't do that well against Ultralisks, and though they would be OK against Broodlord alone, they usually can't fight Broodlords head-on because of Infestor support). It's true that Marauders are a great counter to Ultras, but they're not efficient supply against ling/broodling if you switch to Broodlords; same goes for Vikings if you switch to Ultras after the Broodlords went down. I disagree. In general, if a player gets in a position in which they can exploit one of the strengths of their race (P deathball, T with mass orbitals, Z with economy, larva and tech stockpile), they should be able to gain an edge over their opponent. What I would find reasonable would be to have some unit that deals somewhat inefficiently (but not too much) with all the available choices (possibly being efficient against one of them). That way, when said unit is supported by small amounts of other units that turn the composition good against what Z is fielding, T has an advantage. I mean... if Z can tech switch into a number of unit that are all equally inferior to a specific unit, then the ability to tech switch is practically pointless. Particularly if you take into account the fact that even if you have the tech, late-game switches aren't actually instant (50 seconds for ultralisks, 50 seconds for infestors that start with enough energy for a single fungal, 74 seconds for broodlords that are probably out of positions. Mass mutas is the only fast one in terms of production and deployment speed). None of those should be able to save Z from losing ground after losing a maxed army. | ||
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Xorphene
United Kingdom492 Posts
On December 08 2011 19:38 TheDwf wrote: Given the strength of Zerg instant massive tech switches by lategame, Terrans need some kind of multipurpose unit who's able to deal with your two tier3 paths (Marines don't do that well against Ultralisks, and though they would be OK against Broodlord alone, they usually can't fight Broodlords head-on because of Infestor support). It's true that Marauders are a great counter to Ultras, but they're not efficient supply against ling/broodling if you switch to Broodlords; same goes for Vikings if you switch to Ultras after the Broodlords went down. Indeed. It's hard for Terran to techswitch, not like you have tech labs for ghosts already built ! | ||
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Frail
Iceland336 Posts
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Hane
France210 Posts
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Bagi
Germany6799 Posts
On December 08 2011 19:32 Xorphene wrote: Apart from, a 15 ghost vs 11 ultra composition in a unit tester is in no way applicable to a combat scenario in a 1v1. Don't be so obtuse. Add in tank/marine support, good ghost control and 15 ghosts will obliterate the ultras. Cloak support + scan from a good terran means your detection is sniped first. There are numerous games that have been on streams, Avilo has done it, Trump has done it - lost games become wins because of ghost utility. If you followed the discussion from the start, it began with someone claiming 15 ghosts can "kill a 200/200 zerg army and still have energy left". It was pretty damn obtuse to begin with. I never claimed ghosts weren't strong, in fact I think they are the perfect late-game addition to the terran army once you have that core marine/tank force already there. Its just statements like the above that make me go "wait a minute". Making such obvious bullshit claims should be unacceptable, even if its a terran unit (and therefore imbalanced by default in the eyes of many people). | ||
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