EPTPaying to watch GSL matches... Is it a good idea? - Page 19
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HunterStarcraft
Canada249 Posts
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NicolBolas
United States1388 Posts
On January 31 2011 08:26 Spacemanspiff wrote: Stop saying how good of a deal it is to people who already want to watch it. The part that matter is if new or casual people will want to pay for it. The current live stream and vod setup is very poor at attracting new viewers. What of them? There are plenty of streams of non-GSL tournaments that they could be watching. If people are interested in quality StarCraft 2 programming, it exists. For free. GOM is simply charging for their product. A new or casual person will be perfectly capable of picking up non-GSL tournaments just fine. Your assumption is that there's something fundamentally different about the GSL. That a new or casual SC2 watcher will be turned off from all StarCraft 2 tournaments if they can't watch the GSL for free. In general, people who are interested in watching the GSL can decide for themselves if they want to pay for it. New and casual players generally will not know about the GSL (since it is a foreign-to-them tournament). They'll know more about local tournaments and so forth. The Korean market is not the only place to go to find quality StarCraft 2. | ||
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DeltruS
Canada2214 Posts
On January 31 2011 15:13 PukinDog wrote: Oh brother. Ok, one more. Dude, when you can explain to your Grandma a Timing Push, or why 2-Port Banshees is deadly against Zerg FE, or why you need detection for DTs, and have Grandma understand it within 60 seconds, then Starcraft will be mass-appeal. Dammit. People don't need to understand the intricacies of the game to enjoy it, or at least decide they want to understand it because it looks cool. And my grandma isn't exactly who I am thinking of. I am thinking more of 15 or so friends I know, around the age of 18-20. | ||
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Rabiator
Germany3948 Posts
On January 31 2011 15:10 DeltruS wrote: I don't think that is the case for SC2. People don't have to play it to be a fan of watching it. Watching it can be simple and easy just like donkey kong. It can be a hell of a lot more exciting, too. I bet more than 50% of the people on this forum don't even play SC2 on a regular basis. I think Blizzard actually tried to make Starcraft 2 more appealing to the masses, because they tried to "speed up" the whole game with the macro mechanics. Unfortunately the increased unit AI and the completely different handling of the races has introduced a volatility into Starcraft 2 which makes cheese and early aggression much more likely to succeed and I for one dont think that is a good thing, because skill is replaced largely by luck when figuring out who wins a match that way. Sure there are ways to beat most cheeses, but as the complaints of Zerg everywhere have shown it doesnt work equally well for everyone. IMO it is just as in the movies ... sequels most of the time "need" bigger explosions and "more epic special effects" and that is bad. If we go down that road we arrive at a point when things are simply ridiculous and do not work anymore. Lets see how the new units for the next two SC2 expansions look ... In all I think it is bad for GOM to ask for payment for the stream instead of having ad breaks for everyone. They do have their own player, so it is entirely possible to take out adblockers that way. The total excitement of any sport comes from watching it live and VODs simply arent as interesting unless you want to study them. I would compare it with newspapers, where nothing is older than yesterdays newspaper. | ||
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Werk
United States294 Posts
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DystopiaX
United States16236 Posts
On January 31 2011 16:06 NicolBolas wrote: What of them? There are plenty of streams of non-GSL tournaments that they could be watching. If people are interested in quality StarCraft 2 programming, it exists. For free. GOM is simply charging for their product. A new or casual person will be perfectly capable of picking up non-GSL tournaments just fine. Your assumption is that there's something fundamentally different about the GSL. That a new or casual SC2 watcher will be turned off from all StarCraft 2 tournaments if they can't watch the GSL for free. In general, people who are interested in watching the GSL can decide for themselves if they want to pay for it. New and casual players generally will not know about the GSL (since it is a foreign-to-them tournament). They'll know more about local tournaments and so forth. The Korean market is not the only place to go to find quality StarCraft 2. The GSL is fundamentally different...it makes no difference that it's a Korean tournament because Korea is well known to be the center of SC esports; even my non-gamer/non-SC playing friends know that. When word got out about the GSL's huge prize pool it got a lot of attention, and for someone who's casually into the game it's the tourney they're most likely to know about. Suggesting that someone who doesn't know about the game would know enough to look at TL for tourneys or know about something like the TSL is ridiculous; if they know about SCII esports/only one tourney, that tourney is most likely to be the GSL. Casual players, by their definition, are not going to be willing to pay ten dollars for something they aren't too invested in, and don't know enough to watch other free tournaments. As the best known tournament out there, to both Koreans and foreigners, having the most famous tournament out there essentially closed off to people who are curious about esports is going to hurt. | ||
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how
United States538 Posts
On January 31 2011 15:06 PukinDog wrote: Where on earth do you get the idea that I dont want Starcraft to be bigger? What a stupid assumption! Of course, I would love it were Starcraft more popular. In my first post on this forum, I suggested exactly what I think should be done to make it so. I happen to think Blizzard and GOM are doing the right thing. I think people should pay for what they receive, if they value it. Those who watch free GSL VODs are nobody friend. If you think I am talking down to people on this thread, maybe that is because I am a 36 year old business owner, where most of you are either in college or high school, and from this thread it is apparent that most of you know nothing about business or marketing YET. Or, maybe the thread just pisses me off, because there are people asking whether or not we should pay for something that we supposedly all love, that is Starcraft. Sorry if you think me condescending, I just wish there was more actual thought on this thread than wishes and hopes. Pay for the GSL, kids. Well I am glad that we are on the same team, and I will be the first to admit that I am in deed a kid that is in college, and while when I read you your post, I did see that you made valid points, but doing so in a condescending tone does not make people want to agree with you. If you are getting personally mad at what people are saying, just chill out, don't take what any says personally, and if you want to guide how they can help the community, do that ,don't just tell them thye are wrong and to pay more money. | ||
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Dhalphir
Australia1305 Posts
On January 31 2011 15:13 PukinDog wrote: Oh brother. Ok, one more. Dude, when you can explain to your Grandma a Timing Push, or why 2-Port Banshees is deadly against Zerg FE, or why you need detection for DTs, and have Grandma understand it within 60 seconds, then Starcraft will be mass-appeal. Dammit. SC2 is still enjoyable to people who don't understand any of that stuff. My fiancee is a prime example. She now does play the game and plays it damn well, but she didn't when we started watching GSL together and while she had the advantage of having me there to explain certain things that were said she still enjoyed it despite not knowing a lot about it yet. Sure, your grandma might not be able to pick it up, but old people just aren't very good at picking up new things like this, thats not a phenomenon exclusive to Starcraft. | ||
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Pippah
Denmark353 Posts
In all I think it is bad for GOM to ask for payment for the stream instead of having ad breaks for everyone. They do have their own player, so it is entirely possible to take out adblockers that way. The total excitement of any sport comes from watching it live and VODs simply arent as interesting unless you want to study them. I would compare it with newspapers, where nothing is older than yesterdays newspaper. and it sucks. I watched GSL the first and second season, then I lost interest. Id never pay for something that is free every other place you go. The more people that pays the more you promote pay-per-view and the less the sport will grow. | ||
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minimat
Australia344 Posts
People complaining about waking up a few hours earlier.. Grow the fuck up I mean seriously go to bed an hour or two earlier, there are so much more worse things that could happen to you then waking up early. I'm going to buy the premium package when march comes along and I might even buy it for this months GSTL I mean $120 over a year to watch HOURS and HOURS of professional level starcraft is SO worth it. | ||
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s3raph
58 Posts
1) GomTV is a company and has to make money. 2) SC2 is niche right now. It is also unclear whether it will expand beyond niche. This point is another debate. 3) Advertising on SC2 international streams will reach members of a niche eSports market. There is no geographic context, no market data on spending habits, absolutely no real quantitative data (at least publicly available) that is characterizes this market beyond 'watches or interested in watching SC2' and a really rough population (i.e. how many people). 4) Price insensitivity. People within this niche market seem not to enjoy paying for things. Figures on this are sketchy (and probably unavailable AND difficult to estimate), but if there's a sufficient risk members of a small, niche market simply not paying for the main product, that smells like a low chance of paying for anything an advertiser would sell. 5) No market research data + risk of price sensitivity = no advertisers. 6) No advertisers = no advertising/free stream business model to sustain the foreign stream unless a) Gom's supplementing with other sources of revenue, or b) Gom's willing to take a loss (hey, let's just make some less money this year and maybe stuff'll happen). I can't see how anyone can justify advertising as an effective, or even feasible way of sustaining the foreign stream. Rebuttals to the free TV/radio arguments have already been detailed sufficiently. The point of exposure is fair, but what really drives the growth of sports (e- or otherwise) or any industry for that matter, is money. I don't pretend to understand sports industries, as they are way out of the industry I work in, but I can posit that if there is no money in esports, then it will not grow. You can have as great of a fan community as you would like but ultimately, if the companies involved in the industry (or required for that industry, e.g. Blizz, broadcasting, etc) are not generating some value, the industry won't develop. I don't believe that 'more exposure' is the way to do things. I think more people paying for the stream is the way to do things. The more you show that the niche foreign SC2 market is honestly willing to spend money, the more likely an advertiser will be interested. However, if an advertiser sees a currently uncharacterized market that is openly resistant to not paying ... well. Doesn't take a genius. Actually, it might be an interesting marketing exercise to characterize the foreign SC2 market. Someone should get on that. Or help me somehow turn it into a legitimate white paper or something. | ||
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Dhalphir
Australia1305 Posts
On January 31 2011 16:06 NicolBolas wrote: What of them? There are plenty of streams of non-GSL tournaments that they could be watching. If people are interested in quality StarCraft 2 programming, it exists. For free. GOM is simply charging for their product. A new or casual person will be perfectly capable of picking up non-GSL tournaments just fine. Your assumption is that there's something fundamentally different about the GSL. That a new or casual SC2 watcher will be turned off from all StarCraft 2 tournaments if they can't watch the GSL for free. In general, people who are interested in watching the GSL can decide for themselves if they want to pay for it. New and casual players generally will not know about the GSL (since it is a foreign-to-them tournament). They'll know more about local tournaments and so forth. The Korean market is not the only place to go to find quality StarCraft 2. One of the few rational posts in this thread so far. | ||
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Rabiator
Germany3948 Posts
On January 31 2011 16:18 DystopiaX wrote: The GSL is fundamentally different...it makes no difference that it's a Korean tournament because Korea is well known to be the center of SC esports; even my non-gamer/non-SC playing friends know that. When word got out about the GSL's huge prize pool it got a lot of attention, and for someone who's casually into the game it's the tourney they're most likely to know about. Suggesting that someone who doesn't know about the game would know enough to look at TL for tourneys or know about something like the TSL is ridiculous; if they know about SCII esports/only one tourney, that tourney is most likely to be the GSL. Casual players, by their definition, are not going to be willing to pay ten dollars for something they aren't too invested in, and don't know enough to watch other free tournaments. As the best known tournament out there, to both Koreans and foreigners, having the most famous tournament out there essentially closed off to people who are curious about esports is going to hurt. Personally I think the GSl is not that much "better" than the other tournaments due to their big prize pool, because you can still have crappy and boring games. The only difference is that the streaming is "organized" and you get to watch every game. For other tournaments you only get to watch a fraction of the games and might miss some epic ones while watching a boring one. Big money <> better games! That is the reason why I think the GOM stream should be free / ad supported. The only comparable thing - when looking at the streaming / organization of the matches - is the IEM, but the last european one from Kiev showed that having a schedule with different games coming from the same stage and where "B starts when A is finished" is really really bad. Delays do not improve watchability, so they have room to improve as well. Additionally there is nothing as bad as reading the comments of tons of Counterstrike / Quake - Kiddies who are dissing Starcraft as boring on the forum ... | ||
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Zocat
Germany2229 Posts
On January 31 2011 15:38 kash2k wrote: And seriously..."$10 is to much for your friends?" did you freaking count how much $ you donate("borrowing" from your mom) to Coca Cola every week...... Actually I can tell you the amount I donated to Coca Cola every week: 0$  And for only 5€ more / month I could watch 53 more TV channels. For only 10€ more / month I could get 64mbit internet (I have 20mbit). For only 20€ / month I could watch all soccer games. But I'm not interested in more TV channels (havent watched any TV at all the last 2 weeks). I dont need 64mbit downstream, maybe I'd need it once a week. And I dont want to watch all soccer games, maybe 2-3 /month. So "it's just XXX money" doesnt count - for me the 10$ GSL are worth it. But for my friends it isnt. They pay for other stuff that I dont buy. But my friends dont surf on TL, they play SC2 once/twice a week for maybe 2 hours. No 1on1 only teamgames with people they know. So the typical "casual". But they would be interested in watching good 1on1s for the right price. And 10$ for 2-3 series isnt the right price for them. So a cheaper option would be good. We hardcore fans will still buy the 10$ package (someone said 65 VODs) while the casuals can buy 2-3 games. Good for everyone (even GOM, because they get additional paying customers). | ||
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hmsrenown
Canada1263 Posts
On January 31 2011 12:21 Jibba wrote: BW has advertising revenue in its main country. GOM can't offer the same level of advertising because it's online and streamed towards a wide foreign audience. Plugging Sony Ericson and Pepsi isn't enough to carry those bills. $10 is also worth a lot less in other countries. Saying the pay per view model doesn't work is ridiculous. MMA seems to be doing fine with it, and until the fights got boring, boxing was as well. SC2 is never going to be like baseball or football, and it's doubtful they'll ever reach those sort of profit margins on advertising revenue alone. It's a niche activity, so it's revenue model works like one. I'm perfectly fine with that and I think GOM does a fantastic job. Especially when VODs are uploaded within hours of completion. A lot of people in this thread are extremely ignorant of bandwidth costs. There's a reason all the video streaming sites are huge capital ventures and Youtube was in the red until a year ago, and they've got a scale advantage. Thinking that GOM could cover those costs through website ad dollars is absurd. The first set of every match is free. If someone unacquainted with SC2 wants to get into it, they easily can. Of course they could get more views by making them free, but would they make more money? Since none of you are business managers and not aware of the factors involved, I'm going to put my trust in GOM's MBAs over your internet BSes. Thank you Jibba. I do understand how people are reluctant to pay, PERIOD. It is still quite ridiculous how a lot of people have the sense of entitlement to free stuff everywhere they go. | ||
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0neder
United States3733 Posts
"wow, this is awesome" "well, guess what? You should check out the GSL. It's a global tournament in South Korea (where starcraft 1 has become a spectator sport over the last decade) that has only the best of the best. The winner gets like $80,000 or something crazy like that. You can watch a whole season on GOMTV.net for only $10 in HD, casted in English." I don't see how we wouldn't attract casuals with the current setup. | ||
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Crt
247 Posts
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Rokk
United States425 Posts
On January 31 2011 07:19 jalstar wrote: I'd rather have free VODs and a slightly lower prize pool. How nice of you to sacrifice the prize pools you wouldn't be winning. | ||
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StUfF
Australia1437 Posts
Companies need to make money. Advertisers need to make money. E-sports is a business in the end. I don't think they care if they don't attract watchers who don't want to spend on their entertainment - "success" of e-sports is only secondary to making a goddamn living. | ||
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Gingerninja
United Kingdom1339 Posts
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