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On January 31 2011 13:13 jdseemoreglass wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2011 13:00 Jibba wrote:On January 31 2011 12:52 jdseemoreglass wrote:On January 31 2011 12:42 Assirra wrote:On January 31 2011 12:37 jdseemoreglass wrote:On January 31 2011 12:23 silentsod wrote:On January 31 2011 12:17 jdseemoreglass wrote:On January 31 2011 12:13 silentsod wrote:On January 31 2011 12:10 jdseemoreglass wrote:
I would watch the VOD's on gomtv if they were free. Instead I watch them on other sites for free. That means gomtv is losing my advertising revenue, and their revenue is going to another site just because they decide to upload some videos.
This is the internet people.... the idea that you can regulate and keep any data off the internet is rediculous. Nearly every other site relies on viewership and advertising revenue to make their profit. Gomtv needs to get with the program. Because you can access it somewhere else makes it okay to do so and cheat GOMtv out of money they need to continue producing the content that you enjoy? You, sir, have a terrible mindset. You can't claim that I am cheating them of money simply because they are choosing to charge other people for it. Those people can pay if they like... I would rather watch for free, and I won't feel anymore guilty than when I watch free videos on youtube or anywhere else. No, I can because you are. They produce this content which they own, other people steal this and by proxy you steal it as well. "It's okay because someone else stole it first" does not make it so. This post is the property of jdseemoreglass. To view the content contained in this post, please send me $5. Viewing this content without authorized permission is illegal. + Show Spoiler +
THIEF!!! I didn't even set a link up yet!!!
lol but seriously, if the content you want is just a click away, what do you expect?
Paying for something from someone, when someone else is offering it for free:
!= morality
= stupidity
Simple supply and demand. You can try to enforce artificial scarcity all you want, but data, by its very nature, is NOT scarce. Anything that can be reproduced an infinite number of times with the click of a button will NEVER be a scarce good!
plz explain me how this is different from pirating games. if you want something and dont want to pay for it you dont want it enough and dont deserve it in the first place. i love excuses ppl give for doing stuff like that, it makes you look worse then you are for actually doing it. I have a morality and a view of the world that not everyone will agree with. I don't believe in victimless crimes. In order for me to feel that something is "wrong," or "immoral," or "bad" it has to actual harm someone in some way. Behavior which cause no harm to anyone cannot be considered immoral according to my libertarian view of the world. Because gomtv is harmed in absolutely no shape, manner, or form, then I cannot feel guilty for watching videos. You cannot claim they are losing the money that I would have voluntarily paid, because I would NOT voluntarily pay. I would rather not watch at all if paying was the only option. Gomtv isn't affected or even aware of my actions in any way, so I don't consider it theft. But I know it is popular in modern society to desire control over people even where their actions cause no harm to anyone in any way. So you're a libertarian who doesn't believe GOM should be paid for their product. Right... The value of a product is dependent on its scarcity. Something that has no scarcity tends to have no value. Gomtv only gets away with charging because enough people are either too ignorant to recognize the lack of scarcity, or have separate desires than simply viewing the "unscarce product," such as "supporting the community" or "not being a thief."
In a truly libertarian society you would be punished for violating the property rights of GOMtv, as would the people stealing their property so that you could later do so. There clearly is a market for it if people are willing to sponsor the show, willing to have their advertisements run in the Korean stream, and those outside the country are willing to pay money.
You're some kind of a pseudo-libertarian who doesn't follow the central doctrines/axioms of rights inherit to libertarianism.
Your radio argument: advertisements, or have you never actually listened to the radio?
It's clear to me that you're stuck in some sort of delusional belief system designed to make your actions palatable to yourself, and that it's not related to libertarian beliefs.
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if you dont want to pay then watch it live?
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Lol @ so called libertarian who doesn't believe in intellectual property rights...
Stealing GSL is not a victimless crime.
Gomtv is the victim...
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On January 31 2011 12:52 jdseemoreglass wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2011 12:42 Assirra wrote:On January 31 2011 12:37 jdseemoreglass wrote:On January 31 2011 12:23 silentsod wrote:On January 31 2011 12:17 jdseemoreglass wrote:On January 31 2011 12:13 silentsod wrote:On January 31 2011 12:10 jdseemoreglass wrote:
I would watch the VOD's on gomtv if they were free. Instead I watch them on other sites for free. That means gomtv is losing my advertising revenue, and their revenue is going to another site just because they decide to upload some videos.
This is the internet people.... the idea that you can regulate and keep any data off the internet is rediculous. Nearly every other site relies on viewership and advertising revenue to make their profit. Gomtv needs to get with the program. Because you can access it somewhere else makes it okay to do so and cheat GOMtv out of money they need to continue producing the content that you enjoy? You, sir, have a terrible mindset. You can't claim that I am cheating them of money simply because they are choosing to charge other people for it. Those people can pay if they like... I would rather watch for free, and I won't feel anymore guilty than when I watch free videos on youtube or anywhere else. No, I can because you are. They produce this content which they own, other people steal this and by proxy you steal it as well. "It's okay because someone else stole it first" does not make it so. This post is the property of jdseemoreglass. To view the content contained in this post, please send me $5. Viewing this content without authorized permission is illegal. + Show Spoiler +
THIEF!!! I didn't even set a link up yet!!!
lol but seriously, if the content you want is just a click away, what do you expect?
Paying for something from someone, when someone else is offering it for free:
!= morality
= stupidity
Simple supply and demand. You can try to enforce artificial scarcity all you want, but data, by its very nature, is NOT scarce. Anything that can be reproduced an infinite number of times with the click of a button will NEVER be a scarce good!
plz explain me how this is different from pirating games. if you want something and dont want to pay for it you dont want it enough and dont deserve it in the first place. i love excuses ppl give for doing stuff like that, it makes you look worse then you are for actually doing it. I have a morality and a view of the world that not everyone will agree with. I don't believe in victimless crimes. In order for me to feel that something is "wrong," or "immoral," or "bad" it has to actual harm someone in some way. Behavior which cause no harm to anyone cannot be considered immoral according to my libertarian view of the world. Because gomtv is harmed in absolutely no shape, manner, or form, then I cannot feel guilty for watching videos. You cannot claim they are losing the money that I would have voluntarily paid, because I would NOT voluntarily pay. I would rather not watch at all if paying was the only option. Gomtv isn't affected or even aware of my actions in any way, so I don't consider it theft. But I know it is popular in modern society to desire control over people even where their actions cause no harm to anyone in any way.
I'm going to hack my cable so I can get HBO for free, because I wouldn't pay to watch it otherwise.
Or how about I get an illegal copy of SC2 for my friend, since he would never pay 60$ for it, but I'm sure he would still enjoy it. How could it hurt blizzard?
Anyways, as silent said, GOM has property rights, just like an author has copyright to his book. But wait! Their just words! why can't anyone have access to the book? It can't hurt the author if I wouldn't be willing to pay for the book.
Your view is not libertarian at all. Maybe anarchist, i don't know. If all information should be free, we wouldn't have professional authors, musicians, or game companies like blizzard. Would you like that?
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Dollar per hour of entertainment, GSL is offering something incredibly good.
I understand the argument, even if I don't find it to be a good one, that some people obviously do have the resources to restream it for free so paying for it, like buying anything that can be pirated, can feel stupid. I think this decision is harder in American timezones (which I'm also a subject) because the free stream effectively plays at between 2 and 8 in the morning.
However considering the production value it's not something they can realistically offer for free, or at least for very long.
An alternative done by other mediums is to run it generated by ads. However for ads to cover the cost ... 40+ hrs (I think it's over 60) of content for international clients who also know how to use things like Adblock... They would never even come close, and when they realize they can't support it eternally the backlash from putting a price on it later would be absurd.
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MURICA15980 Posts
Even something as simple as making the previous season's VODs free would open a lot of doors to growth as new comers could watch the previous season without charge. It is not as if they are so up to date that they need to watch the most recent matches to get a grasp of what they are missing. Thus if they do like what they see, they could end up being paying customers. Could be a decent compromise.
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The problem with paying for the product is that they already give it away for free when it airs. Does it not seem silly to pay for something which is free? All I see it as is a big "Fuck you" to the people who can't watch the free stream due to time differences. Well if Gom is telling me "Fuck you", why should I buy their free product?
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Although it is completely worth it, I do not think it is the right thing to do. What they need to do is have considerably better marketing, with better marketing comes a bigger fan base. Blizzard should have dates and times for all big tournament games on their website, make advertisements for it inside of wow, reach out to other companies such as but not limited to Game Stop, Best Buy, Slackers, and then also just try and get the community to play it up. With proper advertising they would easily triple the amount of people watching these games. I am not saying all of these people will be die hard fans or even play the game, but, if done right, it will get those that are the die hard fans, aka most TL goers, to try and host small events, like when people have some friends over to watch Sunday football or whatnot. IF they were able to advertise correctly and to the right demographic, I think the sponsors would come easily enough and then there would be no need to make people pay.
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why does this always end in a pointless "worth the money" and "morals of the internet" debate..
ofcourse gsl vods costing money is a big obstacle for growing it and getting more ppl involved. lot of the non sc/rts guys i know that started some sc2 were kind interested in the whole esports thing. but mostly into the big high production tournaments (mlg/gsl and first iem). while like 3 very interested enough to look around for alternative sources for gsl vods the others stopped bothering quite fast. and from those 3 only on guy is left who atleast sometimes digs up some vods to watch.
its hard to get the random guy to pay for something hes used getting for free. even moreso over here where very very few ppl have creditcards or similar payment methods. so out of 10+ guys interested in it there is only 1 left still watching gsl sometimes.
ofc gom pays ton of prizemoney and only they know how their finances look. and i dont think its a question if its worth the 10$. still only a very small part of the ones interested will pay for whatever reason. but its also not even a question if $$ requirement keeps lots of people out of watching gsl since not evryone cares enough to search the web evryday for some recorded restream or a lucky not yet taken down youtube wit.
so ya it def hurts gsl in a way and keeps many people from getting into it. but if its possible / better for them to change anything about it (low qual vods for example) knows no one outside of gom.
/edit or something like that
On January 31 2011 13:54 Klogon wrote:
Even something as simple as making the previous season's VODs free would open a lot of doors to growth as new comers could watch the previous season without charge. It is not as if they are so up to date that they need to watch the most recent matches to get a grasp of what they are missing. Thus if they do like what they see, they could end up being paying customers. Could be a decent compromise.
nothing for the interested follower ofc. but def something great to show a friend "here watch that. thats gsl. amazing huh?"
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if you buy the vods...share login and password with your friends and win....
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i would definitely pay the fees if i were given access to the replays. a man can only wish
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For $10 I can get every game from a GSL season in 720p and get a higher quality stream while also doing my bit to support them... I can't actually see how this is bad?
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On January 31 2011 14:14 AndrewGreve wrote:
Its 4.99
That's not a GSL season, that's a 4-5day team league.
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Severing the feed and links to your videos in the name of "protecting profits" and "copyright infringement" only works if you're a relevant established property, i.e. "people will go out of their way to find your product". It works for the UFC, it would work for the NFL, it would work for the NBA. Limiting the exposure of a niche product doesn't do the product any favors.
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On January 31 2011 13:58 how wrote:
Although it is completely worth it, I do not think it is the right thing to do. What they need to do is have considerably better marketing, with better marketing comes a bigger fan base. Blizzard should have dates and times for all big tournament games on their website, make advertisements for it inside of wow, reach out to other companies such as but not limited to Game Stop, Best Buy, Slackers, and then also just try and get the community to play it up. With proper advertising they would easily triple the amount of people watching these games. I am not saying all of these people will be die hard fans or even play the game, but, if done right, it will get those that are the die hard fans, aka most TL goers, to try and host small events, like when people have some friends over to watch Sunday football or whatnot. IF they were able to advertise correctly and to the right demographic, I think the sponsors would come easily enough and then there would be no need to make people pay.
I just love how so many of you believe you know better than Blizzard, GOM, you name it. I wonder how many of you marketing geniuses are still in college, as opposed to out there in the business world. There is more bullshit and happy-talk on this thread than any I have ever seen on this forum.
First, the Libertarian dude, he doesn't know his ass from a hat. He is NO Libertarian, just a guy who likes to think himself intelligent.
As for you, you should know that better marketing does NOT insure a larger audience. (Think New Coke) Marketing is about awareness; not sales. They are two different things. You can make people aware of your product all day, but you still have to close the deal with a value proposition.
Anyway, Blizzard does list the dates and times of the big tournaments, as if anyone bothered to look. Those who want to watch these tournaments KNOW when they are happening. If not, nobody would enter them.
You guys have got to get it out of your heads that every product is attractive to any audience, if you just find a way to get it in front of them. That is nonsense, like most of the criticism of GOM on this thread.
Consider this; Android phones are outselling iPhones. Who do you think has better marketing for phones, Google or Apple? Nobody has better marketing than Apple. Under the logic used on this thread, Apple should outsell everyone on everything they sell.
They don't, because their product is NICHE. Not applicable to the masses. The PC is applicable to the masses, which is part of why it sucks. Mass appeal usually equals suck-age.
Starcraft is NOT a mass-appeal game. No good game is a mass-appeal game. Mass appeal? Think Donkey Kong. Inane, simple, easy, stupid, but POPULAR.
You have just received Marketing 101.
That will be 5 dollars.
Bitches.
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in all honesty if you dont feel your friends will be willing to pay to watch, give them your password, see if they get interesting. I know its "illegal" but its how i got a couple of my friends watching, who now pay for the service. Its not impossible to share the GSL love, but it does somewhat restrict you going to random person you dont know well and getting them hooked.
Personally i think its fine. The fee i just paid for feb was $5. If you have a friend whose interested show them a game, see if they like it, and its $5. I mean, when they started they had no money to support anything and still offered abroad, and can only do so with income from us - at least at the moment. The content is so worth it, i have no complaints and i dont feel it has really held back anyone who is interested. And if your goal is to get people interested who aren't, show them a video yourself (assuming these friends are RL friends).
But one thing i do agree with, and could help, is making old seasons free. Say not the previous season, but everything before that. So gsl 1+2 would be free, 3 goes free when Feb goes live, and Code S still has a small fee because of how recent it is. That would be pretty awesome.
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I think that those saying that there should be no such thing as the premium ticket are fucking idiots, especially jdseemoreglass who is just an idiot overall in his entire worldview.
Comparing basic TV or radio to paying for GOMTV is stupid. For basic TV, you have to watch it live when it happens. Sure, there are ways to record it (set-top boxes, old-school VHS recorders) but those all cost money to provide you with that flexible on-demand option.
GSL is provided with a free live english stream for those who want the free option. However, if you do want that free option, you accept the limitations that come along with it, which is to say you accept that you're going to have to watch it at a certain time and the quality may not be amazing.
The time it is streamed could be a problem for some people, but I think its nice for once that the US people are the ones having to deal with awkwardly timed live events instead of everyone catering to the US and letting the rest of the world deal with awkward times.
I do agree, however, that having to buy a separate season ticket for old seasons is a bit much, and edges on the side of money-grabbing.
I don't think its an unreasonable expectation to charge for the current season and perhaps the previous season of HQ VODs, along with a charge for the premium stream, but older seasons should be free.
For example, my ideal view of how the GOMTV payment options should pan out is when this new season of the GSL starts, if I buy a season ticket for it, I get access to that season premium stream, that season HQ VODs, as well as the previous season HQ VODs. The seasons before that all become free. As each season ends and a new one starts, the premium ticket covers the current and immediately-prior-to-current season, and all other VODs are free.
that way if I want to go back and watch Fruitdealer vs HopeTorture from GSL1, I can do that free as a HQ VOD but if I want to see the GSL Season 6 (hypothetical example here) final while Season 7 is going on, I'd have to buy the season pass for that because its still current.
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On January 31 2011 14:41 PukinDog wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On January 31 2011 13:58 how wrote:
Although it is completely worth it, I do not think it is the right thing to do. What they need to do is have considerably better marketing, with better marketing comes a bigger fan base. Blizzard should have dates and times for all big tournament games on their website, make advertisements for it inside of wow, reach out to other companies such as but not limited to Game Stop, Best Buy, Slackers, and then also just try and get the community to play it up. With proper advertising they would easily triple the amount of people watching these games. I am not saying all of these people will be die hard fans or even play the game, but, if done right, it will get those that are the die hard fans, aka most TL goers, to try and host small events, like when people have some friends over to watch Sunday football or whatnot. IF they were able to advertise correctly and to the right demographic, I think the sponsors would come easily enough and then there would be no need to make people pay. I just love how so many of you believe you know better than Blizzard, GOM, you name it. I wonder how many of you marketing geniuses are still in college, as opposed to out there in the business world. There is more bullshit and happy-talk on this thread than any I have ever seen on this forum. First, the Libertarian dude, he doesn't know his ass from a hat. He is NO Libertarian, just a guy who likes to think himself intelligent. As for you, you should know that better marketing does NOT insure a larger audience. (Think New Coke) Marketing is about awareness; not sales. They are two different things. You can make people aware of your product all day, but you still have to close the deal with a value proposition. Anyway, Blizzard does list the dates and times of the big tournaments, as if anyone bothered to look. Those who want to watch these tournaments KNOW when they are happening. If not, nobody would enter them. You guys have got to get it out of your heads that every product is attractive to any audience, if you just find a way to get it in front of them. That is nonsense, like most of the criticism of GOM on this thread. Consider this; Android phones are outselling iPhones. Who do you think has better marketing for phones, Google or Apple? Nobody has better marketing than Apple. Under the logic used on this thread, Apple should outsell everyone on everything they sell. They don't, because their product is NICHE. Not applicable to the masses. The PC is applicable to the masses, which is part of why it sucks. Mass appeal usually equals suck-age. Starcraft is NOT a mass-appeal game. No good game is a mass-appeal game. Mass appeal? Think Donkey Kong. Inane, simple, easy, stupid, but POPULAR. You have just received Marketing 101. That will be 5 dollars. Bitches.
I do not believe I know better than them, but I do believe that there is a bigger market out there than what they have captured. I do understand that good marketing does not mean that you will get more sales, but there IS a reason marketing exists. If you have a good product and no one knows about it, who cares? If you have a shitty product, and market the hell out of it, people will figure it out pretty quickly, but if you have a good product and market it, then you got something. All that I am suggesting is that marketing only to the people who are already part of the community is not that effective. Obviously the people within the community need to be marketed to as well so that they know what is going on, but that does not mean there is no point in branching out.
As for you, why do talk down to people with hopes of making StarCraft bigger? If you do not want StarCraft to be any bigger, than why participate in this thread at all? Just because some of us want StarCraft to be something much bigger than it is today, whether or not YOU think it is possible does not mean that you know exactly what people do and do not want.
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On January 31 2011 14:58 how wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2011 14:41 PukinDog wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On January 31 2011 13:58 how wrote:
Although it is completely worth it, I do not think it is the right thing to do. What they need to do is have considerably better marketing, with better marketing comes a bigger fan base. Blizzard should have dates and times for all big tournament games on their website, make advertisements for it inside of wow, reach out to other companies such as but not limited to Game Stop, Best Buy, Slackers, and then also just try and get the community to play it up. With proper advertising they would easily triple the amount of people watching these games. I am not saying all of these people will be die hard fans or even play the game, but, if done right, it will get those that are the die hard fans, aka most TL goers, to try and host small events, like when people have some friends over to watch Sunday football or whatnot. IF they were able to advertise correctly and to the right demographic, I think the sponsors would come easily enough and then there would be no need to make people pay. I just love how so many of you believe you know better than Blizzard, GOM, you name it. I wonder how many of you marketing geniuses are still in college, as opposed to out there in the business world. There is more bullshit and happy-talk on this thread than any I have ever seen on this forum. First, the Libertarian dude, he doesn't know his ass from a hat. He is NO Libertarian, just a guy who likes to think himself intelligent. As for you, you should know that better marketing does NOT insure a larger audience. (Think New Coke) Marketing is about awareness; not sales. They are two different things. You can make people aware of your product all day, but you still have to close the deal with a value proposition. Anyway, Blizzard does list the dates and times of the big tournaments, as if anyone bothered to look. Those who want to watch these tournaments KNOW when they are happening. If not, nobody would enter them. You guys have got to get it out of your heads that every product is attractive to any audience, if you just find a way to get it in front of them. That is nonsense, like most of the criticism of GOM on this thread. Consider this; Android phones are outselling iPhones. Who do you think has better marketing for phones, Google or Apple? Nobody has better marketing than Apple. Under the logic used on this thread, Apple should outsell everyone on everything they sell. They don't, because their product is NICHE. Not applicable to the masses. The PC is applicable to the masses, which is part of why it sucks. Mass appeal usually equals suck-age. Starcraft is NOT a mass-appeal game. No good game is a mass-appeal game. Mass appeal? Think Donkey Kong. Inane, simple, easy, stupid, but POPULAR. You have just received Marketing 101. That will be 5 dollars. Bitches. I do not believe I know better than them, but I do believe that there is a bigger market out there than what they have captured. I do understand that good marketing does not mean that you will get more sales, but there IS a reason marketing exists. If you have a good product and no one knows about it, who cares? If you have a shitty product, and market the hell out of it, people will figure it out pretty quickly, but if you have a good product and market it, then you got something. All that I am suggesting is that marketing only to the people who are already part of the community is not that effective. Obviously the people within the community need to be marketed to as well so that they know what is going on, but that does not mean there is no point in branching out. As for you, why do talk down to people with hopes of making StarCraft bigger? If you do not want StarCraft to be any bigger, than why participate in this thread at all? Just because some of us want StarCraft to be something much bigger than it is today, whether or not YOU think it is possible does not mean that you know exactly what people do and do not want.
Where on earth do you get the idea that I dont want Starcraft to be bigger? What a stupid assumption! Of course, I would love it were Starcraft more popular. In my first post on this forum, I suggested exactly what I think should be done to make it so. I happen to think Blizzard and GOM are doing the right thing.
I think people should pay for what they receive, if they value it. Those who watch free GSL VODs are nobody friend. If you think I am talking down to people on this thread, maybe that is because I am a 36 year old business owner, where most of you are either in college or high school, and from this thread it is apparent that most of you know nothing about business or marketing YET.
Or, maybe the thread just pisses me off, because there are people asking whether or not we should pay for something that we supposedly all love, that is Starcraft. Sorry if you think me condescending, I just wish there was more actual thought on this thread than wishes and hopes.
Pay for the GSL, kids.
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