I'm just curious as to what everybody else think about GOM making GSL matches pay-to-watch. I understand GOM has to pay their fees and bills, but it feels they are compromising the total number of people who could get hooked to GSL.
Tasteless and Artosis always seem to want us to ''spread the GSL words'' through twitter, but a newcomer will unlikely to be initiated to GSL if he has to pay to watch. + pay to watch means no GSL YouTube videos, which further cuts exposure and the number of fanbase.
GOM seems to acknowledge this problem too because they cut the ticket prices last season, but the actual procedure of making us pay (even just 1 cent) seems that it would cut GSL exposure. Its kind of like "What if Teamliquid made us pay 1$ to be able to see its contents?". Its absolutely worth it (hell, Il go as far as 50 bucks), but it wouldn't be anywhere near the most popular SC site as it is today.
People who subscribe to NHL/NFL streaming videos are about less than 5% of the core fanbase. What are everybody's thought on it?
Also: We're talking about GOM VODs, not SQ Live. SQ Live happens around 4-5am (not many newcomers would stay up that late). Imagine if you could use TL.net only between 3am-5am lol.
My thoughts exactly:
On January 31 2011 06:50 GolemMadness wrote: It's lame and totally kills a ton of community involvement. Having to pay means nothing can go on Youtube, which means nobody else can do commentaries, no best of videos, highlights, etc. Those are the things that really got me into Brood War. There's no way I'd have gotten into it if Gom had run things.
It absolutely cuts exposure for the GSL. But it's the path they've chosen to go as worldwide streaming is not free and they have to finance it somehow. Hopefully they can get sponsors abroad and have a high quality free stream + vods in the future.
Am I missing something there; do they actually plan to make the regular stream pay-to-watch (if so, source please?)? Or is this just a hypothetical scenario?
You get a free stream, you only pay to watch HQ stream and VODs. There is nothing wrong with this and I know for a fact many thousands of people have no problem paying this small monthly fee for the hours and hours and hours of entertainment they get.
GSL exposure is HUGE already, and the more people that watch the more expensive it is to stream, so if it's free and more people watch then GOM takes an even bigger loss on the thing, I think they've found a good balance for the fee to charge. It's totally worth the money.
*edit* Also you can think about it like this...
If all hollywood movies were free then they would definitely have more people that would see them, but the movies cost millions of dollars to make, and the more theaters that show the movie the more money it costs, so not only is the studio not making money to pay for the production costs, but there is no money being brought in to pay for the upkeep of showing the movie (ie staff, power/building costs)
On January 31 2011 06:31 Rotodyne wrote: It sucks if your goal is to make Sc2 more popular among non sc2 players. But the price is worth it for the amount of content you get.
Its worth it for me, and I pay it too. However, you're leaving out so much potential future customers/fans by making us pay a few bucks. Its kind of like "What if Teamliquid made us pay 1$ to be able to see our contents in 2006?". It wouldn't be the most popular SC site today.
On January 31 2011 06:30 mprs wrote: I think people can still watch SQ live for free, which isn't too bad...
I don't think they can.
There is always a free live stream.
Paying is so absolutely worth it, but it does somewhat restrict access. Maybe GOM having a YouTube channel and putting up Set 1's like they do on their own site for free SQ access, coaxing people to purchase for more VODs.
On January 31 2011 06:30 mprs wrote: I think people can still watch SQ live for free, which isn't too bad...
Not VODs.
I think its an awful policy that shows very little understanding of how to grow a sport. Historically things like baseball became much bigger when they began to give out content for free (like when baseball was first put on the radio).
If I was new to the scene and ran across the GSL website, I would be out of there immediately as soon as I saw you need to pay. It would turn me to something else and make me forget about SC2 instantly.
The stream is free, and you can get the first game of every series on gomtv.net for free. Having watched GSL's 1-3 on the stream, I finally decided to drop the cash for GSL4. The amount of content you get for the price is most definitely worth it, I have to say.
quite frankly, it's a really bad idea, starcraft 2 inst popular as it is there and they are just handicapping it more with the pay to watch thing. I personally like watching starcraft 2 as much as starcraft 1 but would never pay to do it.
On January 31 2011 06:30 mprs wrote: I think people can still watch SQ live for free, which isn't too bad...
I don't think they can.
Yes they can...
You can only watch Game 1. If you mean the Live Matches then its not useful because the average newcomer won't be staying up at 3-5am to watch starcraft 2.
On January 31 2011 06:31 Rotodyne wrote: It sucks if your goal is to make Sc2 more popular among non sc2 players. But the price is worth it for the amount of content you get.
Its worth it for me, and I pay it too. However, you're leaving out so much potential future customers/fans by making us pay a few bucks. Its kind of like "What if Teamliquid made us pay 1$ to be able to see our contents in 2006?". It wouldn't be the most popular SC site today.
Teamliquid is a site run by volunteers for the most part, they have a very small upkeep cost, and what they do have to pay they can afford via small ads displayed on the site.
GSL pays out a very large sum of money to players and they have to pay for a studio, streaming equipment and a lot of employees.
In my honest opinion for the first few seasons I thought it was completely retarded so I watched most of the episodes live in SQ. For this season as well as the past season I now believe that it's worth it because of how much content you get for the little you do pay. Will be getting it this coming season once it opens up ^^
I cant even be bothered to do their sign ups to watch the free content. I followed Sc2 religiously in the beginning but alas it has become too commercialized and flooded with excess commentators. I watch Day9 for SC2 and thats about it.
I will however continue to stay up till 3 am to watch the beesuit
On January 31 2011 06:30 mprs wrote: I think people can still watch SQ live for free, which isn't too bad...
I don't think they can.
Yes they can...
You can only watch Game 1. If you mean the Live Matches then its not useful because the average newcomer won't be staying up at 3-5am to watch starcraft 2.
Why is everybody ignoring the fact that he said "I THINK PEOPLE CAN STILL WATCH SQ LIVE FOR FREE" ... Standard Quality LIVE(This is the keyword) he said nothing about VODs...
On January 31 2011 06:30 mprs wrote: I think people can still watch SQ live for free, which isn't too bad...
Hell, it's functional more than the HQ stream ever is.
Still, yeah you probably should if you're interested in SC2 pro games. I don't quite like what Gom's doing but eh, it's not my call, I get enough content for my money. Can't say the GSL can compare to the MLG free stream for example though which is far more entertaining to me personally.
I can't see anyone who's simply a "casual", so to speak, would even consider paying for it. They would probably just google their way to some pirated VODs, of which there are plenty. Comparing the GSL to foreign tournaments makes the price seem less worth it.
There's always some tournament online and I know that I personally have enjoyed some MLG days more than several GSL days, and that was for no cost whatsoever. I suppose some of my sanity did take a punch after hearing "STICK A FORK IN THOSE BUNS" every time I blinked but.. yeah.
I guess Gom gets more profit with the subscription model than they would otherwise, else they're simply terrible at business. But the fact that they're alienating such a large crowd irks me, a lot of people under eighteen who won't be able to convince their parents to pay for shit online (I had that problem back in the day) will likely watch pirated content, for one.
On January 31 2011 06:30 mprs wrote: I think people can still watch SQ live for free, which isn't too bad...
I don't think they can.
Yes they can...
You can only watch Game 1. If you mean the Live Matches then its not useful because the average newcomer won't be staying up at 3-5am to watch starcraft 2.
Why is everybody ignoring the fact that he said "I THINK PEOPLE CAN STILL WATCH SQ LIVE FOR FREE" ... Standard Quality LIVE(This is the keyword) he said nothing about VODs...
because LIVE matches are useless. We're talking about newcomers. Live matches start around 2am to 6am. Not very attractive.
I'm glad it's worth the price for some people, but I can honestly say that the day Gom charges money for it's free test SQ stream is the day that I quit watching GSL. I'm sorry but I am just not convinced that subscription dollars are needed to boost funds, the money has always been in the sponsorships and the subscription just seems like a gimmick to squeeze more money out of the operation. I would watch much more GSL than I do now if I could watch the VODs for free.
I suppose it's simply a matter of which garners a higher profit. They can close off the scene to the hardcore people who will pay money to watch pro starcraft and make good cash off those people, or they can understand that nobody and I mean NOBODY is going to pay to watch starcraft if they are trying it out for the first time and that this is only going to curtail their popularity. It's a very short term marketing strategy, IMO, and I refuse to support it on principle.
I used to be and still am pretty skeptic about it because their live service, unfortunately, still fails massively. It was worst season 1 I guess. I care more about being able to watch live than having VODs so when in season one so many people had problems I was glad I hadn't paid for it. I'm starting to reconsider, but then recently when MKP vs Jinro was played I was watching a perfect restream while my paying friend couldn't run his HQ stuff til after game 2. I dunno I'm not gonna pay for a stream that is likely to bug out during important series. I keep getting reminded of this: + Show Spoiler +
First match of vods is free, and there's a live stream free too.
I've considered buying the pass for the past few seasons, but I've yet to hear of a season without alot of issues with the stream. Once they make it perfect it'll definitely be worth it.
I think they look at us as a small but passionate minority many of whom are willing to pay to see games. It's a pretty accurate assumption based on BW but doesn't really seem to be holding true in SC2. I mean trying to attract new BW fans around the world would be a hopeless endeavor, so the GSL pricing model is ideal for getting something out of the content they are making available to us, knowing that it will likely never grow to be anything bigger than it currently is.
But I think for SC2 it's ill suited, as it becomes more apparent that the SC2 community is if anything bigger outside Korea than inside. I think they are slowly beginning to realize that with things like the foreigner house. They probably make a decent chunk of change from foreigners that helps with financing the foreigner house etc.
They could definitely be doing more to attract foreign viewers, but with all the reports and rumors of SC2 not living up to expectations in Korea, it's likely they have more important things to worry about.
There's probably a million things they could do to capitalize on foreign SC2, but logistically it might not be worthwhile to attempt them from Korea.
While I would love to stay up and watch the games at 2:00am, I have work at 6:00. I feel like shelling out the $15 for the stream is worthwhile given my situation. For those who have that time to stay up, then go for it.
On January 31 2011 06:42 walklightwhat wrote: Live is free and VODs aren't.
Makes sense and is fine to me.
Live generally starts at 10-12am in Europen, and as it is mostly on weekdays most won't be able to see any Gom without paying for it, I think the times for Live are pretty shit in the U.S as well sometimes.
"Live is free" makes sense in Korea, but outside of it that generally doesn't mean whole lot.
I think it makes a lot of sense if the SQL is free and the HDL + VODS cost money. The problem is that SQL works very poorly and HDL has had some difficulties. So now I wouldn't play because of what happened with Jinro vs Idra (everything crashing) for example, but ideally it is a good business model.
On January 31 2011 06:30 mprs wrote: I think people can still watch SQ live for free, which isn't too bad...
Not VODs.
I think its an awful policy that shows very little understanding of how to grow a sport. Historically things like baseball became much bigger when they began to give out content for free (like when baseball was first put on the radio).
If I was new to the scene and ran across the GSL website, I would be out of there immediately as soon as I saw you need to pay. It would turn me to something else and make me forget about SC2 instantly.
At the moment, I think they need subscriptions to even keep the stream running. Stream issues this season (though better than in the past), show that they can't support the viewership they currently have. They need more money, not less. There is very little advertising on the English stream at the moment (just Tastossis plugging Pepsi and Sony once or twice a cast). They already reduced the stream price, and told us to expect adds. Once they get some decent advertising, I'd imagine we'll eventually get free VODs (HQ stream might always be paid). It's unfortunate that you have to pay at the moment, but we'll have to see about the future.
For now, the standard quality stream and free access to the first game of each match isn't too bad. In the long run, something will probably have to change.
Though unethical, it's also not too hard to find a free (unlicensed) VOD if you really want to see a particular set/match.
On January 31 2011 06:30 mprs wrote: I think people can still watch SQ live for free, which isn't too bad...
Not VODs.
I think its an awful policy that shows very little understanding of how to grow a sport. Historically things like baseball became much bigger when they began to give out content for free (like when baseball was first put on the radio).
If I was new to the scene and ran across the GSL website, I would be out of there immediately as soon as I saw you need to pay. It would turn me to something else and make me forget about SC2 instantly.
but in truth your wrong, it was free to listen live(just like it's free to watch GSL live), but there was no such thing as vods... and you get game 1 of every vod free to try and entice you, i'm sorry but i'd rather pay 10 bucks a month then get crap streaming that doesn't work at all, i know it';s still bad in some parts of europe but for the most part it has improved immensely and as such it's worth it, i have no idea how you think it's viable for them to run it for free including vods, when finding advertisers who want to do worldwide only advertising is pretty damn hard, over time they could figure out how to incorporate ip specific advertising but for the time being it's fine, and frankly anyone that complains about it to a serious degree has no business sense
I payed for it this season for the first time and I will pay again the next season. The quality of the games has improved so, so much since GSL 1/2/3, making the purchase very worthwhile. Also I'm not sure, but I think there are more games being played now with Code S having a group-stage beginning and then all of Code A.... plus I doubt the quality of the games is going to decrease next GSL, especially with new maps. I'm so looking forward to good PvZ and TvZs.
They should make a HUGE banner saying that SQ is free and HQ is 10$ per month. That way people will clearly know that they can still watch it for free or if they want better experience or hook it up to TV, they can pay little bit for HQ.
It's lame and totally kills a ton of community involvement. Having to pay means nothing can go on Youtube, which means nobody else can do commentaries, no best of videos, highlights, etc. Those are the things that really got me into Brood War. There's no way I'd have gotten into it if Gom had run things.
On January 31 2011 06:40 Pholon wrote: I used to be and still am pretty skeptic about it because their live service, unfortunately, still fails massively. It was worst season 1 I guess. I care more about being able to watch live than having VODs so when in season one so many people had problems I was glad I hadn't paid for it. I'm starting to reconsider, but then recently when MKP vs Jinro was played I was watching a perfect restream while my paying friend couldn't run his HQ stuff til after game 2. I dunno I'm not gonna pay for a stream that is likely to bug out during important series. I keep getting reminded of this: + Show Spoiler +
http://static.vgcats.com/comics/images/040216.jpg
. Probably unjustly so but meh.
Well according to GOM the reason the stream got better is because of the money gained from paying for this service.. so there is a positive and a negative; i assume the funding isn't their (ignoring the ridiculous prize money) or they feel it isn't a massive priority.. It is not a massive fee, and i feel the content available is enough to encourage people to purchase the season ticket (SQL stream and game 1 for VODs)
I know people have constantly referenced not talking about the live events because they are at a stupid time.. but time zones are relative; so it may be that way for you but not for esports as a whole..
On January 31 2011 06:50 GolemMadness wrote: It's lame and totally kills a ton of community involvement. Having to pay means nothing can go on Youtube, which means nobody else can do commentaries, no best of videos, highlights, etc. Those are the things that really got me into Brood War. There's no way I'd have gotten into it if Gom had run things.
Best of videos and highlights are still possible I believe, its just full out VODs that they wont allow on YT.
I'd have no problem with spending a couple bucks for watching the GSL. I can afford it and it's worth it to me. But I am very reluctant to actually go through the steps of doing it. I have no credit card or Paypal, and even if I did I'd hesitate to actually make an account and give a company on the opposite side of the globe my money. So I just watch whatever restream I can find if I have time, and make do without VODs.
If I had more time to catch up with all the VODs, I would possibly buy the season passes. I watched season 1 and 2 though HQ streams and VODs and I was happy with my decision. Now I just catch what SQ games I can when I am awake at that point. You do get some pretty quality games though.
Id rather pay than deal with something stupid like a million commercial breaks. Streaming isn't free you cheap bastards. The amount of bandwidth they have to deal with isn't exactly cheap and the money continues to help them update the gsl as a whole. I hate this generation though always complaining shit isnt free.
On January 31 2011 06:30 mprs wrote: I think people can still watch SQ live for free, which isn't too bad...
Not VODs.
I think its an awful policy that shows very little understanding of how to grow a sport. Historically things like baseball became much bigger when they began to give out content for free (like when baseball was first put on the radio).
If I was new to the scene and ran across the GSL website, I would be out of there immediately as soon as I saw you need to pay. It would turn me to something else and make me forget about SC2 instantly.
but in truth your wrong, it was free to listen live(just like it's free to watch GSL live), but there was no such thing as vods... and you get game 1 of every vod free to try and entice you, i'm sorry but i'd rather pay 10 bucks a month then get crap streaming that doesn't work at all, i know it';s still bad in some parts of europe but for the most part it has improved immensely and as such it's worth it, i have no idea how you think it's viable for them to run it for free including vods, when finding advertisers who want to do worldwide only advertising is pretty damn hard, over time they could figure out how to incorporate ip specific advertising but for the time being it's fine, and frankly anyone that complains about it to a serious degree has no business sense
Baseball is different. [1] Baseball happened during a reasonable time of the day. Someone who is new to observing baseball might be flipping through the radio channels and stumble upon Baseball and decide to stay. You might even have left the radio on during a party. This won't happen for GOM because the only time the live stream is on is at 4am and later in the US. In order to watch it you have to plan to watch it which is an uncommon idea for people who aren't already hooked on Starcraft. [2] Baseball is also supported by the general population. It wouldn't be rare to hear to hear about a big baseball game at school or at work. The same can't be said for Starcraft or GOM in particular.
Personally, I got into GOM because I got into the SC community because I got into day9. I think day9 is going to be pretty key for the growth of eSports.
As for whether or not it's worth it to pay for the seasons... Lol hellz yea.
The only people who are going to pay are ones who are already big SC2 fans. But so what? There's lots of free content for newbs. Casual players who start watching VODs would probably get just as much value watching Husky anyway. It's only once someone develops a serious interest that they'll even care about the GSL. And once someone is a serious fan they won't have a problem paying $10. The only people GOMTV will lose will be the serious fans who are also super cheap.
So in my opinion it won't cut their audience much at all.
They should make a GOM youtube channel and put up all of the VODs the month after or something. It would hugely increase the attention they get from the ordinary sc2 interested.
I think its the only truly sustainable model with no TV coverage. You can see the first match of the set right (is that in effect anymore?), if not then some teasers might be appropriate. If you cant afford $10 then you arent really that intresting in the eyes of the advertizers either.
I paid 10$ to watch over 50 hours of gsl coverage this month. A movie rental costs 5$ for an hour and a half of a shitty movie. Any mathematicians out there who can do this for me?
I watched the first season, but wasn't too impressed about the VOD quality. It got a lot better in GSL2, but it took a long time to load. GSL3 was ok. GSL jan 2011 was close to perfect when it came to the VOD's.
I didn't pay for the first season, but have payed for the last three and I think it is well worth it. Currently I believe you are allowed to watch the first set of a every match. That is a LOT of free content and should be enough for newcomers to get a taste. If you like it it costs about half of what a cinema ticket costs you and you get roughly 100 hours of quality games.
The current price of about 10$ seems good to me. GSL2 that cost 20$ was a bit steep in my eyes, but the current price is low enough for me not considering if I want it or not.
every season you find a few guys recording the matches live on stream sites, and that lasts until gom eventually track them down, but frankly, that amount of content, for that amount of money, if you're an esport fan, unquestionably worth it. (at least atm, the way they started with their service was full of fail and basically a ripoff, but starting s.3 it's become good.)
I think people are missing the point. It doesn't matter how much paying is worth to people who already have that sort of interest. But the live stream isn't available to everyone at a reasonable time and new people are not going to want to pay blindly. I can't tell my friend you should watch this stream at 4am and see if you like it, the gom player is also a minor hindrance like this.
Besides there are other tournament streams, live and with VODs, that people don't have to pay for. GSL has to offer something considerably better than other tournaments to be worth it. GSL can have higher level players and so on, but is the entertainment value over other streams worth money to new people? Advertising is how sponsors get their money, and more viewers makes ad space on GSL worth more.
TL;DR Paid VODs cut into new/casual viewers even if the paid stream is worth it for current fans.
You guys are really half-doing the argument for newcomers here.
Newcomers in Korea have access to a large amount of LIVE content. Korea isn't exactly a massive country, and surely an interested Korean could make the trip every once in a while.
What about foreigners then? For me, I wasn't aware about GSL until after I had gotten into SC2 by watching AMERICAN tournaments, then gradually branching into Day9, and then into TL. As an American newcomer, I'm pre-disposed to care about American players. I only watch GSL for the foreigners, and I only watch European tournaments because they're casted in English for free by names I know with games between people I know. I'm beginning to branch off into caring about all non-Korean players, but I first and foremost care about MY guys winning.
GSL is the highest example of skill, for sure, no one denies that all the best players participate in that tournament. However, I will watch the MLG stream all day, but I'm definitely not going to stay awake for GSL.
I cheer for America in the Olympics and in any other sport. Why should you guys expect it to be different for SC2?
I'm not a fan of GOMTV's coverage, so I'm not supporting them because I think OGN or MBC could do a better job. I still watch the games live though.
edit: apparently the VOD service has gotten a lot better, I might pay for the March season then if they introduce some more macro maps.
edit 2: stop saying how great a deal it is, Netflix and Hulu are cheaper and have more content. Don't compare it to renting a movie or buying pizza, that's apples and oranges. It's like a Netflix or Hulu but for SC2.
It's 10 bucks. It's seriously such an amazing deal; I actually get more out of it than out of my cable package.
On January 31 2011 07:11 Virid wrote: You guys are really half-doing the argument for newcomers here.
Newcomers in Korea have access to a large amount of LIVE content. Korea isn't exactly a massive country, and surely an interested Korean could make the trip every once in a while.
What about foreigners then? For me, I wasn't aware about GSL until after I had gotten into SC2 by watching AMERICAN tournaments, then gradually branching into Day9, and then into TL. As an American newcomer, I'm pre-disposed to care about American players. I only watch GSL for the foreigners, and I only watch European tournaments because they're casted in English for free by names I know with games between people I know. I'm beginning to branch off into caring about all non-Korean players, but I first and foremost care about MY guys winning.
GSL is the highest example of skill, for sure, no one denies that all the best players participate in that tournament. However, I will watch the MLG stream all day, but I'm definitely not going to stay awake for GSL.
I cheer for America in the Olympics and in any other sport. Why should you guys expect it to be different for SC2?
Your attitude is probably very common but man... I'll just never understand you, I think. At the very least you should cheer for the best of your race. I'm a Protoss. I love MC and will watch everything and anything he does. Not just because he's good, but because it's for Aiur~
Adults with jobs shouldn't blink at $10/month to support their favorite sport (or one of them).
Of course free everything would entice more viewers, but GOM is already taking a bit of a risk with SC2 and the GSL. Instead of taking a bigger risk and accepting a loss on foreign streaming, they're trying to make a profit (I don't know how they're doing on the foreign stream front, but expenses add up quickly when they pay for English casters etc.).
I know this is hard to accept in the easy-piracy age, but sometimes things cost money because someone needs to make a living.
People don't get in to starcraft by impulsively paying $10 to watch something they may or may not even like. There's more than enough SC2 games on youtube and anybody that's interested in it would easily be able to start there. Then, if they like it enough they'll hear about GSL some way or another and end up paying if they really want to see it.
IMO the amount of content you get for $10 is amazing, and we can all tell that the production gets better every season so we know that money's going to improving the overall quality.
Also: We're talking about GOM VODs, not SQ Live. SQ Live happens around 4-5am (not many newcomers would stay up that late). Imagine if you could use TL.net only between 3am-5am lol.
I love how your world has one timezone.
To the general discussion: I think paying for the service makes everything even more professional. Living proof are we ourselves: If nobody would pay it, they couldnt do it this way. If you want to make e-sports really big though, you have to get more money into the circle than just sponsors and this is one way to do so
The others tourney that don't make us pay have in general crappy quality of service and crappy video quality. GSL have higher level player, higher price pool, higher quality in general, higher organisation quality, higher casting quality, higher entertainment quality.... you can live with the ads, but you can't get top quality with only the ads.
every newcomer in the sc2 pro scene can still watch the sq live, and the first match of every single set (and in HQ i think ?), that mean a LOT of matches. i one person still don't know if he like watching GSL after all those free to view matches we can't do anything for him
I raised this issue a while back that making it paid is killing its popularity.
I mean HD and Husky gets like ~150k views on their videos. Imagine if GOMTV had a youtube channel that they upload GSL videos into. They will get like 500k average views per video. That would generate so much hype and popularity for SC2.
As it is right now SC2 progaming is very very niche, when it has the potential to get into mainstream gaming.
Another issue that GOM fucked up hard is even if you pay a subscription the live streams are impossible to watch from Australia. Have to always resort to UStream.
On January 31 2011 07:05 teh_longinator wrote: I paid 10$ to watch over 50 hours of gsl coverage this month. A movie rental costs 5$ for an hour and a half of a shitty movie. Any mathematicians out there who can do this for me?
This exactly.
I am happy to pay a small amount of money for high quality content - In all aspects of life - I dont see how for some reason starcraft will be any different.
On January 31 2011 06:48 Moonling wrote: VODs are so worth it TBH
Yes, I'm happy I paid for this month and it wasn't expensive at all. I felt like I'm supporting eSports by doing so too. I wasn't able to watch much of it live, and having the HD vods uploaded so fast is just great. As long as Artosis will be part of GomTV, I'll pay for every season : )
On January 31 2011 07:02 JoeSchmoe wrote: my question is simple. how do they make money? gomtv is not a charity.
How does MLG make money? MLG isn't a charity. How does the IEM make money? IEM isn't a charity. How does TL make money? TL isn't a charity.
i didn't realize a $50k 1st place prize was equal to like a total of $20k prize pot the streams are free in korea i believe because that's where their audience is
Having read the OP, another big issue is for people too young to have a means of paying for this subscription, with parents that refuse to buy it for them.
Newcomers in Korea have access to a large amount of LIVE content. Korea isn't exactly a massive country, and surely an interested Korean could make the trip every once in a while.
What about foreigners then? For me, I wasn't aware about GSL until after I had gotten into SC2 by watching AMERICAN tournaments, then gradually branching into Day9, and then into TL. As an American newcomer, I'm pre-disposed to care about American players. I only watch GSL for the foreigners, and I only watch European tournaments because they're casted in English for free by names I know with games between people I know. I'm beginning to branch off into caring about all non-Korean players, but I first and foremost care about MY guys winning.
GSL is the highest example of skill, for sure, no one denies that all the best players participate in that tournament. However, I will watch the MLG stream all day, but I'm definitely not going to stay awake for GSL.
I cheer for America in the Olympics and in any other sport. Why should you guys expect it to be different for SC2?
Good point. Most foreigners would not leap into the GSL right away, but be more interested in their players in various tournaments. It would tend to be the hardcore (who might be interested in paying) who would watch the GSL.
It would be nice if they eventually released some of the old VODs on Youtube, though. That way foreigners who are vaguely interested can check out some of the old series and get hyped up.
Edit: Damn, turgid sniped me on this one. Clearly it's a good idea.
They need to pull their finger out and milk youtube ads for all their worth. Their current business model is absolutely horrid and will only cause the community to shrink once SC2 has achieved critical mass.
I think it also needs to be noted VOD's are free in SKorea where they are pushing the GSL the hardest so they are basically spending excess money for the Non English Stream when they could just as easily use Ustream / Livestream with youtube for VODs for free. I understand there may be clashing sponsor issues but really I doubt it matters. I mean its absolutely ridiculous how GOMTV have gone about trying to grow their brand of esports in the West, I'm pretty sure the picture of Notch n co of minecraft fame watching GSL probably did an infinitely better job than all the advertisement GOMTV has done.
Also: We're talking about GOM VODs, not SQ Live. SQ Live happens around 4-5am (not many newcomers would stay up that late). Imagine if you could use TL.net only between 3am-5am lol.
I love how your world has one timezone.
Ok. Germany. That's what. 8am? (very rough guess). Primetime TV shows happen after 6pm for a reason.
Everybody thinks they're entitled to all the free content they want today because piracy is so easy online. Cracks for games, movies close to dvd quality right after their release, music, books...
The only thing I'd say is what a few others have said. After a season finishes, like 2 weeks later released the VoD's for free or something on their website.
I believe that GOM is looking towards making the content cheaper and cheaper. They have already cut the price to $10 from $20 (which was cut from the ridiculous $50 they first announced), with a shift to the inclusion of advertisements. A lot of income comes from sponsorship and advertising with all major sports and even other gaming tournaments. As it stands, they have no american sponsors and such in order to target the viewership.
They can provide content free in Korea because they have advertisements between the games, on the English stream we currently have no ads. I'm sure once GOM moves to the more lucrative monetization of advertising they will cut the sign up fee in order to get maximum viewers as they do in Korea already.
Yes, they are losing some visitors now, but it's necessary while they can establish themselves in the marketplace and can make their money other ways. To be honest I prefer to pay and have no ads at the moment, I stopped watching MLG because there are so many ads for Hot Pockets I can watch before I lose it completely.
On January 31 2011 07:02 JoeSchmoe wrote: my question is simple. how do they make money? gomtv is not a charity.
How does MLG make money? MLG isn't a charity. How does the IEM make money? IEM isn't a charity. How does TL make money? TL isn't a charity.
i didn't realize a $50k 1st place prize was equal to like a total of $20k prize pot the streams are free in korea i believe because that's where their audience is
I'd rather have free VODs and a slightly lower prize pool.
On January 31 2011 07:17 zakmaa wrote: Having read the OP, another big issue is for people too young to have a means of paying for this subscription, with parents that refuse to buy it for them.
A lot of moms are probably outraged at the idea of video games on TV
On January 31 2011 07:02 JoeSchmoe wrote: my question is simple. how do they make money? gomtv is not a charity.
How does MLG make money? MLG isn't a charity. How does the IEM make money? IEM isn't a charity. How does TL make money? TL isn't a charity.
i didn't realize a $50k 1st place prize was equal to like a total of $20k prize pot the streams are free in korea i believe because that's where their audience is
And what about OSL and MSL? Their contents are easily available on youtube. (and free)
There is a huge amount of free content out there already. GSL doesn't need to become free to allow esports to grow because the free stuff that can draw in new viewers is already there. GSL, as well as MLG, IEM and similar, are doing the right thing in treating what they do as a business rather than just giving content. The way they do this is different from each other but they're all valid. GSL's business model seems to work. The people who don't want to pay can still watch the SQ or miss out and the people who do want to pay do. Adding advertisments and then making it more expensive for people who don't want to view them is another good touch because either way this brings in more money. The money that comes in isn't going into greedy corperate pockets either. It's being put into the stream, the massive prize pool, improving equipment and suchlike. Also because of the reputation of having the best of the best and the large prize pool drawing more of the best of the best it means that after newcomers have viewed the free content and been drawn into this great game they will hear of it and want to see. The way the game and community is growing is good. The mix of people doing stuff for fun, the people doing stuff for the love of the game and the people doing stuff with business in mind is good and for it to grow beyond something hardcore fans will watch it needs to keep that mix.
On January 31 2011 07:05 teh_longinator wrote: I paid 10$ to watch over 50 hours of gsl coverage this month. A movie rental costs 5$ for an hour and a half of a shitty movie. Any mathematicians out there who can do this for me?
This exactly.
I am happy to pay a small amount of money for high quality content - In all aspects of life - I dont see how for some reason starcraft will be any different.
The problem isn't that there's content you can pay for, it's that all the competition is free (often with a "Pay for HD" option). Why pay for Gom when you can watch so many tournaments for free? They'll even upload replays so you can watch it or have it casted by some Youtube-caster.
If every store in my town offered a glass of water for free, why the shit would I pay for a glass of water in the one store that decided to charge for it? It makes sense for hardcore fans of SC2 pro-gaming to pay for it, but casual fans will likely just stick to the free tournaments already available.
On January 31 2011 07:12 Turgid wrote: Your attitude is probably very common but man... I'll just never understand you, I think. At the very least you should cheer for the best of your race. I'm a Protoss. I love MC and will watch everything and anything he does. Not just because he's good, but because it's for Aiur~
Nation > Likeability > Class. I play zerg, and I love Nestea and Fruitdealer. I think their stories are inspiring and they're pretty rad dudes. But if they were playing against Idra or Ret, there's no way I wouldn't cheer them on over Nestea and Fruitdealer.
It might be a couple of reasons, actually. Not me just wanting to support my country, but also because foreigners are often construed as being weaker, and therefore being the underdog(except Idra, basically). I like upsets.
On January 31 2011 07:02 JoeSchmoe wrote: my question is simple. how do they make money? gomtv is not a charity.
How does MLG make money? MLG isn't a charity. How does the IEM make money? IEM isn't a charity. How does TL make money? TL isn't a charity.
i didn't realize a $50k 1st place prize was equal to like a total of $20k prize pot the streams are free in korea i believe because that's where their audience is
And what about OSL and MSL? Their contents are easily available on youtube. (and free)
Those are uploaded by independent people and it is technically a copyright violation. I don't think OGN or MBC care because they don't deliver an English stream, but Gom does, with English casters and everything, so they don't let people put their content up for free.
gom should make their own youtube page and upload some of the good games to draw new fans. they would not upload an entire series but just a game from a series or maybe 2 games.
On January 31 2011 07:16 Turgid wrote: Maybe Gom should release VODs of old seasons for free after a certain amount of time?
The Youtube channel is an amazing idea. Release badass series like Clide v Leenock as part of a GSL GREATEST HITS channel on youtube.
Gom already has the first set of every match for free as a SD VOD. If this amount of free content isn't enough to make you pay 10$, more free content probably won't make it more likely to get you as a customer.
Needing to sign in to watch the free content though, that is something I think they should get rid of, it sure is a turn-off for me.
If they give the games away for free live there's no way to justify charging for the VODs. I've watched e-sports for free for years and loved every second of it. I'll just watch it live for free, thanks, and if I can't catch it live then I'll watch it somewhere else for free and pretend it's live. No skin off my bones.
Edit: Lots of people in this thread overlook the main issue. I have friends who are just getting into starcraft, and have just barely started getting into e-sports. But I keep talking about how awesome the Korean scene is, and as soon as they saw they need to pay they lost all interest. I personally would rather pirate the games for them to enjoy as opposed to never seeing them at all. From my perspective, I'm expanding the community and gaining the GSL foreign exposure, which is good for them.
I'm sure it isn't cheap streaming something to audience all over the world.
But I think they should at least make vods available to the public once certain time has past, maybe even have a youtube account like someone suggested. It's kinda ridiculous how you can't even watch S1 vods if you didn't pay for the ticket.
On January 31 2011 07:05 teh_longinator wrote: I paid 10$ to watch over 50 hours of gsl coverage this month. A movie rental costs 5$ for an hour and a half of a shitty movie. Any mathematicians out there who can do this for me?
This exactly.
I am happy to pay a small amount of money for high quality content - In all aspects of life - I dont see how for some reason starcraft will be any different.
The problem isn't that there's content you can pay for, it's that all the competition is free (often with a "Pay for HD" option). Why pay for Gom when you can watch so many tournaments for free? They'll even upload replays so you can watch it or have it casted by some Youtube-caster.
If every store in my town offered a glass of water for free, why the shit would I pay for a glass of water in the one store that decided to charge for it? It makes sense for hardcore fans of SC2 pro-gaming to pay for it, but casual fans will likely just stick to the free tournaments already available.
Because you're paying for GSL caliber games featuring the top players. Guess what, your water is tap water while your friend is selling fresh spring water with a lemon. You're not paying Gom because they're just another tournament that you could watch, you're paying them because everybody knows they're the top of the walk.
On January 31 2011 07:02 JoeSchmoe wrote: my question is simple. how do they make money? gomtv is not a charity.
How does MLG make money? MLG isn't a charity. How does the IEM make money? IEM isn't a charity. How does TL make money? TL isn't a charity.
i didn't realize a $50k 1st place prize was equal to like a total of $20k prize pot the streams are free in korea i believe because that's where their audience is
And what about OSL and MSL? Their contents are easily available on youtube. (and free)
Streaming matches to hundreds of thousands people is expensive, OSL and MSL don't stream anything themselves? Also MLG and IEM both have premium services which cost money, much like GSL, they just give out VODs for free.
On January 31 2011 06:50 GolemMadness wrote: It's lame and totally kills a ton of community involvement. Having to pay means nothing can go on Youtube, which means nobody else can do commentaries, no best of videos, highlights, etc. Those are the things that really got me into Brood War. There's no way I'd have gotten into it if Gom had run things.
This is what I miss the most. I mean remember Day9 dailies when they were still BW. Who wouldn't kill to have a daily on some of the GSL games.
With the large amount of tournaments happening this year, it would be nice to see if they could have a few of the tournaments be free. For example, the GSTL is happening soon and its a smaller tournament, but still has many of the big name players participating.
If they made that free for streaming and for VODs (and kept making the smaller non-GSL tournaments free, like the Gisado stuff that happened last year), I think it could help toward enticing more people to watch (and hopefully pay) the next season.
On January 31 2011 07:22 samaNo4 wrote: Oh my. People, really, go back to school to learn some reading comprehension.
He is not asking if IT'S WORTH it, but if IT WILL STOP THE POTENTIAL VIEWERS.
Of course it will stop potential viewers.
The real question for Gom is if it is best for them with a free stream with advertising/sponsors, or their current payment model. Since they have been cutting the price it seems they get more income with a lower than a higher price. It will be interesting to see if they will cut it lower than 10$.
On January 31 2011 07:02 JoeSchmoe wrote: my question is simple. how do they make money? gomtv is not a charity.
How does MLG make money? MLG isn't a charity. How does the IEM make money? IEM isn't a charity. How does TL make money? TL isn't a charity.
i didn't realize a $50k 1st place prize was equal to like a total of $20k prize pot the streams are free in korea i believe because that's where their audience is
I'd rather have free VODs and a slightly lower prize pool.
lower prize pool generally equals less foreigners would get sponsorship to go might as well cut the fee out of the caster's salary :/
It is 100% Gom's responsibility to grow esports worldwide. Everything should be of the highest quality, professionally produced and flawlessly streamed everywhere in the world. There should be no promotions or advertisements of any kind and no logging in, because registration forms are tiresome. Not only should it be free, they should autodetect our home addresses from our IPs and deliver a pizza with 30 minutes of loading the stream as an expression of their gratitude for our attention.
On January 31 2011 07:02 JoeSchmoe wrote: my question is simple. how do they make money? gomtv is not a charity.
How does MLG make money? MLG isn't a charity. How does the IEM make money? IEM isn't a charity. How does TL make money? TL isn't a charity.
i didn't realize a $50k 1st place prize was equal to like a total of $20k prize pot the streams are free in korea i believe because that's where their audience is
And what about OSL and MSL? Their contents are easily available on youtube. (and free)
Streaming matches to hundreds of thousands people is expensive, OSL and MSL don't stream anything themselves? Also MLG and IEM both have premium services which cost money, much like GSL, they just give out VODs for free.
OSL and MSL showcases their games on television (which is probably a more attractive and expensive option than Internet streaming).
On January 31 2011 07:22 samaNo4 wrote: Oh my. People, really, go back to school to learn some reading comprehension.
He is not asking if IT'S WORTH it, but if IT WILL STOP THE POTENTIAL VIEWERS.
... and you really think "if it will stop the potential viewers" is worth discussing? perhaps the most trivial question I've seen. It's like saying do you think more people will buy a car if it costs $1 instead of $20,000?
The point is that money and profit is a tremendous factor here. You can't just isolate "ideal" variables without considering the whole picture in a discussion.
On January 31 2011 06:50 GolemMadness wrote: It's lame and totally kills a ton of community involvement. Having to pay means nothing can go on Youtube, which means nobody else can do commentaries, no best of videos, highlights, etc. Those are the things that really got me into Brood War. There's no way I'd have gotten into it if Gom had run things.
This is what I miss the most. I mean remember Day9 dailies when they were still BW. Who wouldn't kill to have a daily on some of the GSL games.
It sounds like a good idea for them to have some partners like Day[9] who would be allowed access to some replays and be allowed to make a daily out of it. It would give Gom some nice PR, basically for free.
On January 31 2011 07:05 teh_longinator wrote: I paid 10$ to watch over 50 hours of gsl coverage this month. A movie rental costs 5$ for an hour and a half of a shitty movie. Any mathematicians out there who can do this for me?
This exactly.
I am happy to pay a small amount of money for high quality content - In all aspects of life - I dont see how for some reason starcraft will be any different.
The problem isn't that there's content you can pay for, it's that all the competition is free (often with a "Pay for HD" option). Why pay for Gom when you can watch so many tournaments for free? They'll even upload replays so you can watch it or have it casted by some Youtube-caster.
If every store in my town offered a glass of water for free, why the shit would I pay for a glass of water in the one store that decided to charge for it? It makes sense for hardcore fans of SC2 pro-gaming to pay for it, but casual fans will likely just stick to the free tournaments already available.
Because you're paying for GSL caliber games featuring the top players. Guess what, your water is tap water while your friend is selling fresh spring water with a lemon. You're not paying Gom because they're just another tournament that you could watch, you're paying them because everybody knows they're the top of the walk.
You can't honestly be saying that the GSL games have better content than foreign tournaments. Either you haven't been watching foreign tournaments or you have a very low standard by which you are entertained.
Granted, the GSL does produce top-notch games from time to time but they can't promise quality games and there's no reason they should charge for better quality when most of the time it's just build-order losses and 1-a syndrome with great timing and execution.
But this thread isn't about what we, the hardcore fanbase thinks of the system. This thread is about what non-starcraft gamers and the general public as a whole would think of it. Imagine if you will a gamer who's in to high level dota or wow or call of duty and hears about starcraft 2. He plays it and enjoys it, and finds the top level tournament in the sport, only to find he has to pay to watch it. Why should he pay to watch a Blizzard-sponsored tournament when he's already bought their game? It doesn't make any sense and more often than not this hypothetical person would forgo paying all together and either find another source or lose interest all together.
its not the price thats the big deal. its a great deal for the amount of content. its just as a non adult its kinda weird to ask your parents to buy a ticket to watch a stream of some koreans playing a video game.
so i have not bought a season ticket. i would not have bought a ticket if it was 1 cent because of the above. its more of the concept then the price.
It's free, so I'm not sure what the OP is talking about. Also, I'm pretty shocked at the amount of people just taking his claim that it costs money at face value, discussing it as if it were the truth.
Paying extra for an HD/high quality version is common practice. Is HD broadcasting free where the OP is from? Cause it costs extra where I live. GomTV does well to look for additional revenue streams.
#1) There is free content available, set 1 of group/match play as a VoD and a live stream of the whole event. It's a decent amount of content really.
#2) GOM and the GSL is not the exclusive gateway to competitive SC2 for Western viewers, in fact there's a vast array of easily followable online tournaments, huge numbers of youtube casters, and big esports personalities like Day9 that can introduce new fans to competitive starcraft2. Given that most people generally associate more with players from their regions it's easier to introduce people to events in areas they care about.
#3 GOM presumably need some revenue from the foreign community to make it worthwhile providing support for us,
2 things I'd like to see GOM consider:
a) Providing a few classic series for free as a means of introduction, it'd be a nice thing for newer fans of the GSL, and also something you could link to new fans in general who might be interested.
b) Rebroadcasting the livestream around half a day later to try allow a few more people to catch the actual broadcst at a convenient hour,
----
I have no problems with paying for the VOD content, and as long as I can afford to do so I probably will. It is the premier SC2 competition in the world, and I wish to both watch and support it.
On January 31 2011 07:05 teh_longinator wrote: I paid 10$ to watch over 50 hours of gsl coverage this month. A movie rental costs 5$ for an hour and a half of a shitty movie. Any mathematicians out there who can do this for me?
This exactly.
I am happy to pay a small amount of money for high quality content - In all aspects of life - I dont see how for some reason starcraft will be any different.
The problem isn't that there's content you can pay for, it's that all the competition is free (often with a "Pay for HD" option). Why pay for Gom when you can watch so many tournaments for free? They'll even upload replays so you can watch it or have it casted by some Youtube-caster.
If every store in my town offered a glass of water for free, why the shit would I pay for a glass of water in the one store that decided to charge for it? It makes sense for hardcore fans of SC2 pro-gaming to pay for it, but casual fans will likely just stick to the free tournaments already available.
Because you're paying for GSL caliber games featuring the top players. Guess what, your water is tap water while your friend is selling fresh spring water with a lemon. You're not paying Gom because they're just another tournament that you could watch, you're paying them because everybody knows they're the top of the walk.
Funny, our tap water is actually preferred to bottled water. And lemons are cheap.
Anyway, no I'm not paying because Koreans or GSL participants are supposedly better than everyone else, I personally pay to watch good SC2. Maybe the GSL 3 players are better than players in foreign tournaments but I sure as fucking hell regret I paid anything that season as the majority of the games were pure bullshit.
I'm not quite sure what your point is here anyway.I know I'm more interested in the player line up for Western tournaments, ditto for my mates. The games are in general much better as well, other than the occasional rare gem in the GSL.
I pay because I want to see the games, sure. But also because I frankly don't really give a shit about $10. That is not going to apply to casual fans of the game.
People who say "there's a free Live Stream, it's fine" are spouting absolute BS. The times the GSL is on in parts of the world are simply unreasonable to watch them live, like 2-5 AM. Some people have things like school and work they need to do, so saying that there's a "free Live Stream" when people around the world simply watch them due to their time schedules or it being live at an unreasonable time.
So no, saying that a free Live Stream that comes on at like 2-5AM is not "fine" if they are trying to broaden their audience. Not to mention it shuts out a large part of the already-existing fanbase. If, at the very least, they REstreamed the previous night's games at a more reasonable time for those that can't match their schedules up to the Live Schedules, then it'd be the bare-minimum and "fine".
On January 31 2011 07:05 teh_longinator wrote: I paid 10$ to watch over 50 hours of gsl coverage this month. A movie rental costs 5$ for an hour and a half of a shitty movie. Any mathematicians out there who can do this for me?
This exactly.
I am happy to pay a small amount of money for high quality content - In all aspects of life - I dont see how for some reason starcraft will be any different.
The problem isn't that there's content you can pay for, it's that all the competition is free (often with a "Pay for HD" option). Why pay for Gom when you can watch so many tournaments for free? They'll even upload replays so you can watch it or have it casted by some Youtube-caster.
If every store in my town offered a glass of water for free, why the shit would I pay for a glass of water in the one store that decided to charge for it? It makes sense for hardcore fans of SC2 pro-gaming to pay for it, but casual fans will likely just stick to the free tournaments already available.
Because you're paying for GSL caliber games featuring the top players. Guess what, your water is tap water while your friend is selling fresh spring water with a lemon. You're not paying Gom because they're just another tournament that you could watch, you're paying them because everybody knows they're the top of the walk.
You can't honestly be saying that the GSL games have better content than foreign tournaments. Either you haven't been watching foreign tournaments or you have a very low standard by which you are entertained.
I can honestly say that I think the GSL has the worlds best players at the moment*. This doesn't translate directly into more entertaining games though. For instance, I think the LiquidJinro vs oGsEnsnare ** was the most entertaining match in the GSL.
they dont force you to pay, they aren't stopping anyone from watching it apart from those who do not know of its existance.
As for the VODs, well thats what you are paying for. Most sports and most esports organisations make you pay to watch on demand, why would GSL be any different? If you are that interested in sc2 and GSl then you will pay, its dirt cheap now for 720p VODs and access to a much better stream.
On January 31 2011 07:05 teh_longinator wrote: I paid 10$ to watch over 50 hours of gsl coverage this month. A movie rental costs 5$ for an hour and a half of a shitty movie. Any mathematicians out there who can do this for me?
This exactly.
I am happy to pay a small amount of money for high quality content - In all aspects of life - I dont see how for some reason starcraft will be any different.
The problem isn't that there's content you can pay for, it's that all the competition is free (often with a "Pay for HD" option). Why pay for Gom when you can watch so many tournaments for free? They'll even upload replays so you can watch it or have it casted by some Youtube-caster.
If every store in my town offered a glass of water for free, why the shit would I pay for a glass of water in the one store that decided to charge for it? It makes sense for hardcore fans of SC2 pro-gaming to pay for it, but casual fans will likely just stick to the free tournaments already available.
Because you're paying for GSL caliber games featuring the top players. Guess what, your water is tap water while your friend is selling fresh spring water with a lemon. You're not paying Gom because they're just another tournament that you could watch, you're paying them because everybody knows they're the top of the walk.
You can't honestly be saying that the GSL games have better content than foreign tournaments. Either you haven't been watching foreign tournaments or you have a very low standard by which you are entertained.
Granted, the GSL does produce top-notch games from time to time but they can't promise quality games and there's no reason they should charge for better quality when most of the time it's just build-order losses and 1-a syndrome with great timing and execution.
But this thread isn't about what we, the hardcore fanbase thinks of the system. This thread is about what non-starcraft gamers and the general public as a whole would think of it. Imagine if you will a gamer who's in to high level dota or wow or call of duty and hears about starcraft 2. He plays it and enjoys it, and finds the top level tournament in the sport, only to find he has to pay to watch it. Why should he pay to watch a Blizzard-sponsored tournament when he's already bought their game? It doesn't make any sense and more often than not this hypothetical person would forgo paying all together and either find another source or lose interest all together.
I'm defining content by the player base. The GSL has the highest quality of players in the world. Not really up for debate. I can enjoy European and American tournaments and watch plenty, but I also know they're not the best, even if they provide fantastic games. They can't promise "quality games" but they can promise quality, expedience, reliability, etc...
The point a lot of people are trying to make is that people seem to think it hurts e-sports that the GSL charges. As if it should be their duty to provide content to as many people as they can. There are insane amounts of free content already available in starcraft 2. If people don't already like the game from that content, then I wouldn't expect them to watch the GSL. Just as I wouldn't expect people who have never seen starcraft 2 games to randomly decide to pay to watch the GSL before seeing any other tournaments first or deciding since the GSL charges they wont watch ANY SC2.
People who are willing and able to pay can do so. For those that don't, enjoy the free content provided by plenty of other sites.
Well the way that most tournaments make their money is through the heavy use of advertisements which is what the GSL isn't doing. I don't think it would be such a bad idea to have ads inbetween matches and during breaks in order for people to watch game for free, and then have a premium HQ ad-free option for people who want to pay.
I know this is kinda what they are heading towards but the version with ads will still cost money which i don't think is a good idea. Something tells me that if they make it free to watch but have ads between games and on VODS that their viewercount will spike tremendously, and most likely the people that pay to watch now will continue to pay for the HQ content and HQ stream etc.
On January 31 2011 07:36 dabom88 wrote: People who say "there's a free Live Stream, it's fine" are spouting absolute BS. The times the GSL is on in parts of the world are simply unreasonable to watch them live, like 2-5 AM. Some people have things like school and work they need to do, so saying that there's a "free Live Stream" when people around the world simply watch them due to their time schedules or it being live at an unreasonable time.
So no, saying that a free Live Stream that comes on at like 2-5AM is not "fine" if they are trying to broaden their audience. Not to mention it shuts out part of the already-existing fanbase.
I don't see the difference to regular TV, really. Missed a program? Tough luck. Should've stayed up or recorded it.
Same thing with GomTV, BUT there's the added option of watching what you want when you want for 10$.
Some people need to get a sense of perspective here.
The price is EXTREMELY reasonable. This is a sponsored tournament, and GSL is looking to make money because, I know this is going out on a limb here, but companies need money to continue doing business!
You pay 10 dollars, and you get 3 months of a high quality stream and all the vods. This also helps Artosis and Tasteless earn a decent living. Stop being so cheap, eat ramen for a few days if you have to, and buy the ticket.
On January 31 2011 07:36 dabom88 wrote: People who say "there's a free Live Stream, it's fine" are spouting absolute BS. The times the GSL is on in parts of the world are simply unreasonable to watch them live, like 2-5 AM. Some people have things like school and work they need to do, so saying that there's a "free Live Stream" when people around the world simply watch them due to their time schedules or it being live at an unreasonable time.
So no, saying that a free Live Stream that comes on at like 2-5AM is not "fine" if they are trying to broaden their audience. Not to mention it shuts out part of the already-existing fanbase.
I don't see the difference to regular TV, really. Missed a program? Tough luck. Should've stayed up or recorded it.
Same thing with GomTV, BUT there's the added option of watching what you want when you want for 10$.
Some people need to get a sense of perspective here.
Regular TV happens at regular time lol (not 2am-5am)
On January 31 2011 07:22 samaNo4 wrote: Oh my. People, really, go back to school to learn some reading comprehension.
He is not asking if IT'S WORTH it, but if IT WILL STOP THE POTENTIAL VIEWERS.
... and you really think "if it will stop the potential viewers" is worth discussing? perhaps the most trivial question I've seen. It's like saying do you think more people will buy a car if it costs $1 instead of $20,000?
The point is that money and profit is a tremendous factor here. You can't just isolate "ideal" variables without considering the whole picture in a discussion.
It is a relevant discussion because E-Sports is still a growing scene.
SC2 isn't even the biggest esports yet.
By increasing exposure, you increase potential sponsors. I would hostly not mind having an ad or two between the matches if it means vods becoming free to be expose to the mainstream population. Also, someone probably brought it up but GSL is free in Korea, why? Precisely because they wanted more viewership from mainstream population.
I think Gretech may have thought the foreign scene may be still too small to look for sponsors to sponsor the stream.
On January 31 2011 07:43 Carthac wrote: The price is EXTREMELY reasonable. This is a sponsored tournament, and GSL is looking to make money because, I know this is going out on a limb here, but companies need money to continue doing business!
You pay 10 dollars, and you get 3 months of a high quality stream and all the vods. This also helps Artosis and Tasteless earn a decent living. Stop being so cheap, eat ramen for a few days if you have to, and buy the ticket.
Read the OP, of course its definitely reasonable price, if you are a starcraft fan.
But for mainstream populace, which includes majority of SC2 players, gets immediately turned off by the fact that you have to pay to be able to watch something like this.
Well, paying for the VODs and HQ stream is still supporting the e-sports scene. Despite what people say about GOM being greedy and such, they are still the only provider of SC2 in Korea and are supporting one of the biggest e-sports tournaments currently.
It would be awesome for them to compensate their inconvenient broadcasting time with a restream or temporarily free VODs, though. Not all of us can spend money so easily, especially younger audiences who probably will have difficulty convincing their parents to pay so much money for videos of a computer game tournament.
Then again, I'm sure there are ways of illegally obtaining the VODs, though piracy will benefit you at the detriment of hurting the well-being of the e-sports scene.
$10 for a month of entertainment vs $50+/mo for cable and I watch way more GSL than cable. Fuck yeah I'm paying for HQ and convenience of not having to be up at 6AM.
On January 31 2011 07:02 JoeSchmoe wrote: my question is simple. how do they make money? gomtv is not a charity.
How does MLG make money? MLG isn't a charity. How does the IEM make money? IEM isn't a charity. How does TL make money? TL isn't a charity.
Does MLG and IEM provide HQ vods hours after the game spoiler and commercial free? I actually want to know I've never seen vods from those events admittedly I have a hunch that their model for vod releases is vastly inferior?
On January 31 2011 07:43 Carthac wrote: The price is EXTREMELY reasonable. This is a sponsored tournament, and GSL is looking to make money because, I know this is going out on a limb here, but companies need money to continue doing business!
You pay 10 dollars, and you get 3 months of a high quality stream and all the vods. This also helps Artosis and Tasteless earn a decent living. Stop being so cheap, eat ramen for a few days if you have to, and buy the ticket.
Read the OP, of course its definitely reasonable price, if you are a starcraft fan.
But for mainstream populace, which includes majority of SC2 players, gets immediately turned off by the fact that you have to pay to be able to watch something like this.
The "mainstream populace" will never watch the GSL unless it's aired on big sports channels in the US and EU anyways. You'll never find a non-gamer visiting GomTV.net and watch Starcraft 2 because he's genuinely interested in it. If he was interested in Starcraft 2 or in SC2 as an eSport, he'd be playing SC2 and thus not be a non-gamer.
On January 31 2011 07:02 JoeSchmoe wrote: my question is simple. how do they make money? gomtv is not a charity.
How does MLG make money? MLG isn't a charity. How does the IEM make money? IEM isn't a charity. How does TL make money? TL isn't a charity.
Does MLG and IEM provide HQ vods hours after the game spoiler and commercial free? I actually want to know I've never seen vods from those events admittedly I have a hunch that their model for vod releases is vastly inferior?
Teamliquid is superior.
There was tons of ads for MLG and I don`t recall any HQ vods either.
On January 31 2011 07:36 dabom88 wrote: People who say "there's a free Live Stream, it's fine" are spouting absolute BS. The times the GSL is on in parts of the world are simply unreasonable to watch them live, like 2-5 AM. Some people have things like school and work they need to do, so saying that there's a "free Live Stream" when people around the world simply watch them due to their time schedules or it being live at an unreasonable time.
So no, saying that a free Live Stream that comes on at like 2-5AM is not "fine" if they are trying to broaden their audience. Not to mention it shuts out part of the already-existing fanbase.
I don't see the difference to regular TV, really. Missed a program? Tough luck. Should've stayed up or recorded it.
Same thing with GomTV, BUT there's the added option of watching what you want when you want for 10$.
Some people need to get a sense of perspective here.
Like Ryan, says, Regular TV happens at regular time, regular TV isn't on at 2am-5am. You're probably the one that needs to get a sense of perspective. Plenty of people don't think they should have to pay to watch people playing Starcraft. But many of those same people want to support the GSL with views. Saying "Durrr well they should pay for it" isn't an argument. If they don't think they should have to pay, they will settle for the plethora of free-to-watch tournaments or simply pirate the GSL and watch it at a reasonable time.
On January 31 2011 07:43 Carthac wrote: The price is EXTREMELY reasonable. This is a sponsored tournament, and GSL is looking to make money because, I know this is going out on a limb here, but companies need money to continue doing business!
You pay 10 dollars, and you get 3 months of a high quality stream and all the vods. This also helps Artosis and Tasteless earn a decent living. Stop being so cheap, eat ramen for a few days if you have to, and buy the ticket.
Read the OP, of course its definitely reasonable price, if you are a starcraft fan.
But for mainstream populace, which includes majority of SC2 players, gets immediately turned off by the fact that you have to pay to be able to watch something like this.
The "mainstream populace" will never watch the GSL unless it's aired on big sports channels in the US and EU anyways. You'll never find a non-gamer visiting GomTV.net and watch Starcraft 2 because he's genuinely interested in it. If he was interested in Starcraft 2 or in SC2 as an eSport, he'd be playing SC2 and thus not be a non-gamer.
On January 31 2011 07:43 Carthac wrote: The price is EXTREMELY reasonable. This is a sponsored tournament, and GSL is looking to make money because, I know this is going out on a limb here, but companies need money to continue doing business!
You pay 10 dollars, and you get 3 months of a high quality stream and all the vods. This also helps Artosis and Tasteless earn a decent living. Stop being so cheap, eat ramen for a few days if you have to, and buy the ticket.
Read the OP, of course its definitely reasonable price, if you are a starcraft fan.
But for mainstream populace, which includes majority of SC2 players, gets immediately turned off by the fact that you have to pay to be able to watch something like this.
The "mainstream populace" will never watch the GSL unless it's aired on big sports channels in the US and EU anyways. You'll never find a non-gamer visiting GomTV.net and watch Starcraft 2 because he's genuinely interested in it. If he was interested in Starcraft 2 or in SC2 as an eSport, he'd be playing SC2 and thus not be a non-gamer.
eSport just isn't like normal sport.
if some rich dude bought tv time on espn and put starcraft on it people would evinchly watch it.
I feel like you guys are vastly underestimating the amount of free GSL VOD's available. Seriously even with the first VOD of every series, there's already an insane amount of free content. You're looking at about 65 VOD's a season and for new potential viewers that's more than enough to get a taste of what GOM is offering. Anyone who really likes what they see will cough up the 10$ (prepaid credit cards are <3 for those underage) and if you don't then there's a TON of content available anyway. If GOM isn't your forte then there's plenty of other good Starcraft content to feast upon.
On January 31 2011 07:43 Carthac wrote: The price is EXTREMELY reasonable. This is a sponsored tournament, and GSL is looking to make money because, I know this is going out on a limb here, but companies need money to continue doing business!
You pay 10 dollars, and you get 3 months of a high quality stream and all the vods. This also helps Artosis and Tasteless earn a decent living. Stop being so cheap, eat ramen for a few days if you have to, and buy the ticket.
Read the OP, of course its definitely reasonable price, if you are a starcraft fan.
But for mainstream populace, which includes majority of SC2 players, gets immediately turned off by the fact that you have to pay to be able to watch something like this.
The "mainstream populace" will never watch the GSL unless it's aired on big sports channels in the US and EU anyways. You'll never find a non-gamer visiting GomTV.net and watch Starcraft 2 because he's genuinely interested in it. If he was interested in Starcraft 2 or in SC2 as an eSport, he'd be playing SC2 and thus not be a non-gamer.
eSport just isn't like normal sport.
People who likes to watch youtube casts would definitely watch the GSL. Last I checked, some youtube casts get well over 100,000 hits. It's not exactly mainstream, but its a good place to start.
On January 31 2011 07:43 Carthac wrote: The price is EXTREMELY reasonable. This is a sponsored tournament, and GSL is looking to make money because, I know this is going out on a limb here, but companies need money to continue doing business!
You pay 10 dollars, and you get 3 months of a high quality stream and all the vods. This also helps Artosis and Tasteless earn a decent living. Stop being so cheap, eat ramen for a few days if you have to, and buy the ticket.
Read the OP, of course its definitely reasonable price, if you are a starcraft fan.
But for mainstream populace, which includes majority of SC2 players, gets immediately turned off by the fact that you have to pay to be able to watch something like this.
The "mainstream populace" will never watch the GSL unless it's aired on big sports channels in the US and EU anyways. You'll never find a non-gamer visiting GomTV.net and watch Starcraft 2 because he's genuinely interested in it. If he was interested in Starcraft 2 or in SC2 as an eSport, he'd be playing SC2 and thus not be a non-gamer.
eSport just isn't like normal sport.
I am a non-gamer, and yet I spend most of my mornings on TL and have watched and paid for every GSL season.
On January 31 2011 07:46 eviltomahawk wrote: Well, paying for the VODs and HQ stream is still supporting the e-sports scene. Despite what people say about GOM being greedy and such, they are still the only provider of SC2 in Korea and are supporting one of the biggest e-sports tournaments currently.
It would be awesome for them to compensate their inconvenient broadcasting time with a restream or temporarily free VODs, though. Not all of us can spend money so easily, especially younger audiences who probably will have difficulty convincing their parents to pay so much money for videos of a computer game tournament.
Then again, I'm sure there are ways of illegally obtaining the VODs, though piracy will benefit you at the detriment of hurting the well-being of the e-sports scene.
If 5 people watch the games for free when otherwise 1 person would have paid to watch them, I don't see how that's detrimental to e-sports.
I just wanted to add that when they first announced the GSL would be pay-to-watch, they said they'd charge $50, and suddenly lowered the price of season 1 to $20. Obviously that was a business tactic (drop the bomb, soften the blow), and it's clearly worked. If I had $10 to spare, would I buy the ticket this month? Probably, but I plan on being a starcraft fan for life, and a lifetime subscription to the GSL ends up being very costly. Doing the math, the time/cost ratio for the GSL still ends up being far and away higher than a WoW subscription, and there's hardly any gamers that would have more fun watching the GSL than playing WoW (teamliquid excluded).
It's also a slap in the face to give the winner an exorbitant amount of money, and the rest of the players such a tiny, unlivable amount of money. All the while they charge the non-korean fans to pay for such a lopsided prize distribution. It just feels like the people who paid for the stream/vods are being used, from where I'm standing.
The streams aren't a problem for me as usually I dont have the time to stay up that late on weekdays. Though the VODs we have to pay for which is complete bullfuckingshit. If i want to watch sc2 I have to pay or stay up to ridiculous hours of the night. If I want to watch sc1 I can go on youtube..or watch for free at night. Hmm I wonder which one a normal person would choose. /end rant. I dont care about the HD stream keep it gom but give us VODs for free seriously.
It's freaking cheap. I feel like I'm stealing. It's 5 dollars for GSTL, it was 10 for last season which was like 50 hours worth of games. Blizzcon was $40 and was awful. I think it's a great deal.
I don't understand why they don't restream at a primetime live for foreign regions, and put regional ads on that stream. I don't mind getting ads, I do mind having to stay up until 4 am and beyond to watch a few sc2 games.
On January 31 2011 07:55 theBOOCH wrote: It's freaking cheap. I feel like I'm stealing. It's 5 dollars for GSTL, it was 10 for last season which was like 50 hours worth of games. Blizzcon was $40 and was awful. I think it's a great deal.
blizzcon had a free option that was not streamed at 3am.
b) Rebroadcasting the livestream around half a day later to try allow a few more people to catch the actual broadcst at a convenient hour,
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exactly. if they restreamed it at like 9pm est time i would fall in love with gom so much.
This is incidentally another problem, you can never satisfy everyone even with a restream of the event. 9pm EST for most of the EU fans is like 3am, and given that the initial broadcast is during work/school hours that's still going to be awkward for some heh.
On January 31 2011 07:36 dabom88 wrote: People who say "there's a free Live Stream, it's fine" are spouting absolute BS. The times the GSL is on in parts of the world are simply unreasonable to watch them live, like 2-5 AM. Some people have things like school and work they need to do, so saying that there's a "free Live Stream" when people around the world simply watch them due to their time schedules or it being live at an unreasonable time.
So no, saying that a free Live Stream that comes on at like 2-5AM is not "fine" if they are trying to broaden their audience. Not to mention it shuts out part of the already-existing fanbase.
I don't see the difference to regular TV, really. Missed a program? Tough luck. Should've stayed up or recorded it.
Same thing with GomTV, BUT there's the added option of watching what you want when you want for 10$.
Some people need to get a sense of perspective here.
Like Ryan, says, Regular TV happens at regular time, regular TV isn't on at 2am-5am.
This might be true for a lot of things, but doesn't necessarily hold for everything. Let's say I want to watch the superbowl over here for whatever reason, then I have to be up at 2-5AM because it's not something that is worthwhile for broadcasters to reshow. In smaller niche sports (or markets) it isn't actually that uncommon at all for events not to be broadcast at a more accessible hour.
Some kind of restream is still the way to go imo though given the delivery platform is the web.
People who say "there's a free Live Stream, it's fine" are spouting absolute BS. The times the GSL is on in parts of the world are simply unreasonable to watch them live, like 2-5 AM. Some people have things like school and work they need to do, so saying that there's a "free Live Stream" when people around the world simply watch them due to their time schedules or it being live at an unreasonable time.
So no, saying that a free Live Stream that comes on at like 2-5AM is not "fine" if they are trying to broaden their audience.
The GoMTV monthly fee is very reasonable. Especially because it is the only real big tournament in the world right now. 10 dollar or 7 euro is nothing.
I'm pretty much entirely okay with GOM's system. The pay for HQ / free LQ set-up is great, as it gives newcomers a way to check it out without committing anything but their time. The big problem is that the time the games are played makes sense for Korea and almost nowhere else in the world. That's a big turn-off for people looking to get into the esport -- hell, it's a big hurdle for those who already love StarCraft. As others have said, it would be better if they re-streamed at a reasonable time of the day with the free LQ option.
I've paid every season, I've never been disappointed. The quality that the matches are done by, is just too good, plus I do not feel like staying up late only to come into work the next day grumpy because of how late the matches are (west coast time-zone).
The price is fine in my opinion, I get so much content for the money compared to ANY other entertainment. I think everyone just needs to get used to and accept the fact that paying for entertainment is ok, yes even on the internet.
On January 31 2011 06:30 mprs wrote: I think people can still watch SQ live for free, which isn't too bad...
Not VODs.
I think its an awful policy that shows very little understanding of how to grow a sport. Historically things like baseball became much bigger when they began to give out content for free (like when baseball was first put on the radio).
If I was new to the scene and ran across the GSL website, I would be out of there immediately as soon as I saw you need to pay. It would turn me to something else and make me forget about SC2 instantly.
I think a lot people are missing the point that GOM is a Korean company. Baseball got popular because it was an American sport broadcasting to Americans while being supported by local American commercials. It wasn't costing MLB money to broadcast games. GOM can't just broadcast for free, it's really expensive, they need sponsors to support the broadcasting. The GSL is supported by Sony Erickson, but I doubt there was some guy in the corporate office in Japan who decided to sponsor a Korean game tournament, I'm sure it was a local division that wanted to reach out to Koreans. And on top of that, it's being supported by Korean music. It's costing GOM money to even have a low quality live broadcast, no one's supporting the international stream. Don't Koreans get the content for free? That's because all of the advertising that supports that content is targeted at Koreans. If GOM wants to make the GSL popular like the radio made The MLB popular, they're going to have to find international sponsors. I think that is a daunting task, especially for a Korean company. I'm fine with paying ten dollars a month for now. If someone from GOM figures out how to get multinational sponsors to support foreign content, then that's even better. But I think you guys are asking to much from a moderately sized Korean company.
On January 31 2011 07:36 dabom88 wrote: People who say "there's a free Live Stream, it's fine" are spouting absolute BS. The times the GSL is on in parts of the world are simply unreasonable to watch them live, like 2-5 AM. Some people have things like school and work they need to do, so saying that there's a "free Live Stream" when people around the world simply watch them due to their time schedules or it being live at an unreasonable time.
So no, saying that a free Live Stream that comes on at like 2-5AM is not "fine" if they are trying to broaden their audience. Not to mention it shuts out part of the already-existing fanbase.
I don't see the difference to regular TV, really. Missed a program? Tough luck. Should've stayed up or recorded it.
Same thing with GomTV, BUT there's the added option of watching what you want when you want for 10$.
Some people need to get a sense of perspective here.
Regular TV happens at regular time lol (not 2am-5am)
Uh, no. Regular TV happens 24/7. If the program you want to watch runs at 2am-5am (btw, it runs from 10am-2pm over here), what do you do?
well it's ok for us "hardcorefans" because we pay 10$ and get like 10hours entertainment in HQ. And since 2011 the HQ livestream and the HQ VODs are loading perfectly.
The question is not, do you think it's good for you. The question is, is it good for GOMtv. Well I think it's not good for sc2. Right now they pull off a skimming strategy. What is pretty bad for SC2 as an esport. But right now, I think it's the proper strategy for GOM. I think there wouldn't be much more viewers right now, if it the VODs were free.
i think all gom really needs to do is allow previous VoDs from past seasons on youtube. I love it how they moved the time back so that us in the US can enjoy it without having to pull out an all nighter waiting for the finals
On January 31 2011 08:10 supersoft wrote: well it's ok for us "hardcorefans" because we pay 10$ and get like 10hours entertainment in HQ. And since 2011 the HQ livestream and the HQ VODs are loading perfectly.
The question is not, do you think it's good for you. The question is, is it good for GOMtv. Well I think it's not good for sc2. Right now they pull off a skimming strategy. What is pretty bad for SC2 as an esport. But right now, I think it's the proper strategy for GOM. I think there wouldn't be much more viewers right now, if it the VODs were free.
Disagree. If they advertised the free VODs on Youtube or something (like post one free video on youtube of a match from the previous night), they'd probably be a lot more viewers of the GSL. And namely, it'd attract people who wouldn't normally watch the GSL.
On January 31 2011 08:05 Ighox wrote: The price is fine in my opinion, I get so much content for the money compared to ANY other entertainment. I think everyone just needs to get used to and accept the fact that paying for entertainment is ok, yes even on the internet.
Unless the cost is the season 1 original cost of 50$. I would like to get season 1 but Im not sure how much it would cost me now since its the only season I haven't seen yet.
On January 31 2011 06:30 mprs wrote: I think people can still watch SQ live for free, which isn't too bad...
Not VODs.
I think its an awful policy that shows very little understanding of how to grow a sport. Historically things like baseball became much bigger when they began to give out content for free (like when baseball was first put on the radio).
If I was new to the scene and ran across the GSL website, I would be out of there immediately as soon as I saw you need to pay. It would turn me to something else and make me forget about SC2 instantly.
I think a lot people are missing the point that GOM is a Korean company. Baseball got popular because it was an American sport broadcasting to Americans while being supported by local American commercials. It wasn't costing MLB money to broadcast games. GOM can't just broadcast for free, it's really expensive, they need sponsors to support the broadcasting. The GSL is supported by Sony Erickson, but I doubt there was some guy in the corporate office in Japan who decided to sponsor a Korean game tournament, I'm sure it was a local division that wanted to reach out to Koreans. And on top of that, it's being supported by Korean music. It's costing GOM money to even have a low quality live broadcast, no one's supporting the international stream. Don't Koreans get the content for free? That's because all of the advertising that supports that content is targeted at Koreans. If GOM wants to make the GSL popular like the radio made The MLB popular, they're going to have to find international sponsors. I think that is a daunting task, especially for a Korean company. I'm fine with paying ten dollars a month for now. If someone from GOM figures out how to get multinational sponsors to support foreign content, then that's even better. But I think you guys are asking to much from a moderately sized Korean company.
You forget that the GSL is also sponsored by Blizzard, an American company who made the game in America. If Blizzard would just step up like the parent it's supposed to be and cover the broadcasting fees for GOM, the foreign scene wouldn't be in this mess of indefinitely paying every single month, over and over and over. They could at least help attain international sponsors.
On January 31 2011 07:56 Bijan wrote: I don't understand why they don't restream at a primetime live for foreign regions, and put regional ads on that stream. I don't mind getting ads, I do mind having to stay up until 4 am and beyond to watch a few sc2 games.
So you're suggesting... 4 restreams of Gom? One for each prime time slot in major regions? One for GMT+3, one for GMT, one for EST and one for PST?
Gom has an international audience.
As long as there's no distribution model in place for each country/region, we probably won't get rebroadcasts tailored to the various local preferences.
edit: although hey, I personally wouldn't mind a restream of the games 12h later.
The whole VODs thing is the worst part to me. It absolutely quashes any community interaction through commentary, highlights, and the spread of GSL to more casual SC2 players.
On January 31 2011 08:16 lac29 wrote: The whole VODs thing is the worst part to me. It absolutely quashes any community interaction through commentary, highlights, and the spread of GSL to more casual SC2 players.
What, exactly, is fundamentally wrong with a VOD model that offers Set 1 of each match for free (content preview), then asking only $10 for an all-access premium pass to all VOD content (with HQ live stream thrown in as well)?
While I dunno shit about korean business patterns, I think it is a very bad way to conduct a business. I'd do it very very differently.
Also, this is the internet. Your IP rights will never be... uh... "respected" (?)...
For example, I couldnt watch gsl4 finals live. Even if I had payed to watch it live, i'm positive a lot of ppl had issues connecting to the stream (I cant begin to imagine how pissed off I'd be had I payed for a shit that would stop working when I most wanted it)
then, I searched for like 15 minutes after I woke up and watched the VODs for free on an alternative very known stream.
Nothing to do with reaping gomtv off. That's just how the internet works really.
I have to say, I'd preffer a couple of sample best of 3's to the first of each being available, and whilst I haven't been able to afford the paid pass to date, I appreciate what is available, and I don't think the price is unreasonable given what you get for it.
Stop saying how good of a deal it is to people who already want to watch it. The part that matter is if new or casual people will want to pay for it. The current live stream and vod setup is very poor at attracting new viewers.
I think what they are doing right now is pretty damn close to perfect and they shouldn't have to change anything. As far as I know GSL isn't on any of the major Korean television gaming channels (OGN, MBC, not sure if there others I don't really know) so they have to make some money to pay the bills somehow, and I doubt the sponsorships take care of all of it, but who knows.
The only thing I think Gom should maybe consider doing is re-stream the games on Gom player 12hrs after the original playing of the day's games. This way people who don't pay for VoDs can watch it all of it on SQ, and it may get them hooked to buy premium service, but I guess many of the people who pay for premium may not because they can watch it all then.
However, for myself even if they restreamed it 12hrs after not sure I'd always be able to watch it or want to, so I'd still get premium, gotta support the scene! I just hope other people view it that way, and maybe newcomers would support the scene after seeing it for the first time, who knows.
You can watch the stream free live. You can watch the first game of the VODs free. People seem to forget that companies are in business to make money. All of them except non-profits are built to make money. GOM is no exception. They provide a service (an expensive one at that) and have numerous employees and their own studio. They also have a foreigner house for overseas GSL participants where players live rent free. They also have somewhere close to a 100k USD prize pool EACH MONTH. All of these things cost money and lots of it.
I like the way they operate and it's how I would try to operate things if I was in charge. They provide a free stream and partially free VODs. The premium service give you access to all VODs and interviews. The only way I can see them ever making everything free is if they get TONS of sponsorship money. And maybe that's the goal eventually, but for now, I seriously doubt Sony Ericsson can or will cover all the expenses of GOM mentioned above.
On January 31 2011 06:30 mprs wrote: I think people can still watch SQ live for free, which isn't too bad...
Not VODs.
I think its an awful policy that shows very little understanding of how to grow a sport. Historically things like baseball became much bigger when they began to give out content for free (like when baseball was first put on the radio).
If I was new to the scene and ran across the GSL website, I would be out of there immediately as soon as I saw you need to pay. It would turn me to something else and make me forget about SC2 instantly.
I think a lot people are missing the point that GOM is a Korean company. Baseball got popular because it was an American sport broadcasting to Americans while being supported by local American commercials. It wasn't costing MLB money to broadcast games. GOM can't just broadcast for free, it's really expensive, they need sponsors to support the broadcasting. The GSL is supported by Sony Erickson, but I doubt there was some guy in the corporate office in Japan who decided to sponsor a Korean game tournament, I'm sure it was a local division that wanted to reach out to Koreans. And on top of that, it's being supported by Korean music. It's costing GOM money to even have a low quality live broadcast, no one's supporting the international stream. Don't Koreans get the content for free? That's because all of the advertising that supports that content is targeted at Koreans. If GOM wants to make the GSL popular like the radio made The MLB popular, they're going to have to find international sponsors. I think that is a daunting task, especially for a Korean company. I'm fine with paying ten dollars a month for now. If someone from GOM figures out how to get multinational sponsors to support foreign content, then that's even better. But I think you guys are asking to much from a moderately sized Korean company.
You forget that the GSL is also sponsored by Blizzard, an American company who made the game in America. If Blizzard would just step up like the parent it's supposed to be and cover the broadcasting fees for GOM, the foreign scene wouldn't be in this mess of indefinitely paying every single month, over and over and over. They could at least help attain international sponsors.
Shame on Blizzard, really.
I'm pretty sure Blizz doesn't sponsor The GSL. GOM is required to have Blizzard's name featured prominently through their contract.
I have no doubt that the GSL will find a way to get it in for free once the business plan makes sense. You have to understand that they are above all a business. We as fans have a vested interest in their success. If making the stream and VoDs free allows them to have a greater revenue from advertisements, then they will do that.
They need to grow in numbers first while still charging for VoDs. Why? So that they can sustain themselves while still attempting to find a feasible sponsor.
I imagine re-streams in a foreigner-friendly timezone with ads will be somewhat convenient, but spoilers are always rampant. Why watch a restream when you can watch a vod?
On January 31 2011 08:26 Spacemanspiff wrote: Stop saying how good of a deal it is to people who already want to watch it. The part that matter is if new or casual people will want to pay for it. The current live stream and vod setup is very poor at attracting new viewers.
Again I think people are severely underestimating the amount of free content already provided. Right now on an account without premium service you can watch 65 full VOD's from the last season. Assuming the average VOD is 12 minutes long (random number, most are longer) that's already 13 full hours of free content. Are you seriously saying that's a poor way to attract new viewers?
On January 31 2011 08:26 Spacemanspiff wrote: Stop saying how good of a deal it is to people who already want to watch it. The part that matter is if new or casual people will want to pay for it. The current live stream and vod setup is very poor at attracting new viewers.
Said like someone who didn't take even a second to substantiate their claim. More like "it's very poor because I can't get everything for free" amirite? Free SQ live stream and free sample VOD content is a poor model? Gimme a break.
On January 31 2011 08:26 Spacemanspiff wrote: Stop saying how good of a deal it is to people who already want to watch it. The part that matter is if new or casual people will want to pay for it. The current live stream and vod setup is very poor at attracting new viewers.
Again I think people are severely underestimating the amount of free content already provided. Right now on an account without premium service you can watch 65 full VOD's from the last season. Assuming the average VOD is 12 minutes long (random number, most are longer) that's already 13 full hours of free content. Are you seriously saying that's a poor way to attract new viewers?
Yes, it is. Watching Set1s don't mean shit, its like if NBATV gave you free first quarter of every basketball game, very unsatisfying. Many many people have a very low reservation price for products like VODs and streams, and when they see a fee it just turns them away to either not watching at all or finding other sites who rip them off of gom.
I am in Australia and have been watching GSL since season 1. I try to catch it live when possible as the time difference is minimal here. I have paid for Seasons 2-4. I have only ever had to restream 1 set live, this was the IdrA vs Jinro bo5 in the January season.
1. Saying we should get the VOD's for free to 'introduce' new customers to the scene is stupid, a lot of content is already free as everyone seems to keep pointing out. The reason people are willing to pay for this content is because of the high calibur of these players is it not? No one would be paying if this was a Bronze level tournament. So if you want to see the best of the best fork out the money it's not hard, on top that sites such as www.sc2rep.com have multiple replays of top level korean players from ladder so it's not your ONLY option to see these gamers. 2. The stream has drastically increased in terms of stability, I mentioned I only ever restreamed IdrA vs Jinro, this is true but since Season 4 I have had NO lag spikes whatsoever no lag at all, I think this speaks leaps and bounds to the increase in quality. 3. I live in a..farily remote area of Nrth East QLD and my net is therefore expensive, $89.95/month for 100GB with speed of about 6mbps. yet I have no trouble streaming this, so I don't see how it was previously mentioned that the stream is unwatchable in Australia. 4. If you don't have the luxury of being able to watch the GSL for free due to time constraints, guess what, pay for it? Why should GOM restream the games when they have a perfectly good method in place? As previously mentioned the stream has increased drastically and it was mentioned that this is due to people buying the subscriptions. So why hinder progress just so you can save a few bucks?
On January 31 2011 08:16 lac29 wrote: The whole VODs thing is the worst part to me. It absolutely quashes any community interaction through commentary, highlights, and the spread of GSL to more casual SC2 players.
What, exactly, is fundamentally wrong with a VOD model that offers Set 1 of each match for free (content preview), then asking only $10 for an all-access premium pass to all VOD content (with HQ live stream thrown in as well)?
It still quashes any real community interaction or community projects that can occur. Offering only the first set is really not much difference between offering no VOD at all from a community interaction point of view. It was fine in SC1 where there are videos out there that the community could manipulate and use to create "new content", much which ends up on youtube and ends up attracting a LOT more people who aren't even SC fans necessarily. GSL is still very much a hardcore SC2 nerd's world with the current revenue plan.
Edit: A lot of content is free because it's illegally pirated off of HD stream. That's why there isn't a huge outcry. It's because a lot of people have found ways around it and are happy utilizing these ways.
I've seen the HQ live stream, its not that HQ, but its definitely better than LQ. I don't watch VODs so... I don't know about that but, the HQ stream's resolution is still small.
I have a really hard time encouraging people to watch this. I mean what am I supposed to say to them? Just tell them to wake up at 4 AM? Or just tell them to pay for the VODs?
Games being streamed for free at other times of the day, or free access to SQ VODs would help me (and many others I'm sure) be able to actually encourage people to watch this. As it stands, I'm just demanding way too much from someone if I want them to watch the GSL.
Is there any chance they can cut advertising deals with foreign/international companies to be displayed on the foreign stream?
There's gotta be a large amount of people out there who would watch the GSL, but don't want to them at ridiculous times or pay for them. Wouldn't you think we would be the minority?
It's hard to tell what GOM should do with their stream without knowing the # of subscriptions they get each month. Would it be more profitable for them to keep charging for the stream, or try to get international advertising within the breaks like they do for the Koreans?
I know nothing about advertising but that seems like a troublesome thing to do. Who is going to want to advertise GLOBALLY on a video game stream? The English stream provides content to what, over 100 countries? That is a pretty damn broad audience to try to reach, There has to be a pretty damn small number of companies that want to advertise to GOM's demographic on such a large scale.
There is a small production team going into the English stream, so there has to be some revenue coming in to cover the costs. I'm sure GOM has examined their options and found that a subscription fee would better fund the English casting than advertising.
It might be difficult to take their word for it, but the BW scene is only just breaking even for the broadcasters, and they have a bigger following than GSL.
I'm of the opinion that whatever GOM has to do to sustain a reasonable profit to cover their expenses and keep doing what they're doing, they should without a doubt do. I love watching the GSL.
On January 31 2011 08:48 Befree wrote: I have a really hard time encouraging people to watch this. I mean what am I supposed to say to them? Just tell them to wake up at 4 AM? Or just tell them to pay for the VODs?
You tell them to watch some of the matches' opening games and see if they like them, and if they like them, then they can pay. The same way you tell someone to watch a movie trailer and if they like it, they'll pay ten dollars for a ticket to see the movie.
On January 31 2011 08:48 Befree wrote: I have a really hard time encouraging people to watch this. I mean what am I supposed to say to them? Just tell them to wake up at 4 AM? Or just tell them to pay for the VODs?
You tell them to watch some of the matches' opening games and see if they like them, and if they like them, then they can pay. The same way you tell someone to watch a movie trailer and if they like it, they'll pay ten dollars for a ticket to see the movie.
Herein lies the problem though, if someone watches a movie trailer they go to a torrent site and download it, and then complain when quality of movies drops (as it has in the past decade).
There is PLENTY of free, high quality SC2 material out there that's directly towards the western community. GSL being a bit "exclusive" does not really hurt the community much at all in my opinion.
GOM seems to be actively pursuing the foreign market, they are bringing in incentives for foreign players, english casting, official stream. All this points towards trying to establish themselves and maybe someday you'll see foreign advertising allowing them to stream high quality free streams. GOM is a fairly small company and they need to do things in a way thats both profitable and sustainable.
We don't really want SC2 to be like BW where after 10 years the only way to watch is via 3rd party restreams (provided by some very dedicated people) with only korean commentary?
I've paid for every season so far. It's definitely worth it for the amount of content you get (probably something around 110 hours of content if my estimations are correct). And the money goes to help improve the stream and supporting E-sports! How could you go wrong?
Well, you can see the first set for free in the vod section in every match. So they do give newcomers a chance to get hooked. I watched first set of every match in s2 and bought ticket for s3 and s4 after..
Not paying for it. Attempted to get a ticket, but the format is confusing, and it's extremely hard to tell what they are selling. I'll just stick to watching free casters and streams, thx.
Yup, im totally fine with them charging for it as well. Just as anything else in the world, nothing is for free... nothing.
My only concern is if they try to push it too much, eg. raising the price because they will very quickly hit a level where people can't be borthered, right now its still a small enough amount that people don't really care.
The difference is huge between S3 and 4. (paid for both) They are saying all the money goes to improving the stream, and it has helped. I couldn't watch the HQ stream in S3, but it works perfectly now. (except for Idra vs Jinro when we crashed the gomtv site... I should think that says enough about the interest for SC2 )
And as said the stream is free, so I don't really see the issue. They vary times a bit, so you should at least be able to pick up some games, if not in the week then in the weekend.
And for people saying watch other tournaments/husky etc., do you really believe those things comes even close to the quality GSL offers? I've stopped watching husky etc. because they seem to be a month behind GSL in everything, and the games seems low quality in comparison, I just can't go back after watching GSL.
The maps are getting better, the stream is better, the players will be better, next season of GSL should be a blast really.
And as for viewers, it seems to be growing so who knows if the hype is really dying down? It's all about money essentially, and for now it works, with ad's in place it might even be free at some point. HoTS will launch soon, so we will get some release hype again, with the foundation in place. It still has huge potential.
They should just play a recorded stream of the last matches every 6 hours or something (like normal TV plays recordings everyday till the next weeks episode). Both parties would win, it would still be beneficial to pay to watch the VODs when you want and which one you want but still allows people who don't want to pull out their CC to watch at appropriate hours in the day.
On January 31 2011 07:43 Carthac wrote: The price is EXTREMELY reasonable. This is a sponsored tournament, and GSL is looking to make money because, I know this is going out on a limb here, but companies need money to continue doing business!
You pay 10 dollars, and you get 3 months of a high quality stream and all the vods. This also helps Artosis and Tasteless earn a decent living. Stop being so cheap, eat ramen for a few days if you have to, and buy the ticket.
Read the OP, of course its definitely reasonable price, if you are a starcraft fan.
But for mainstream populace, which includes majority of SC2 players, gets immediately turned off by the fact that you have to pay to be able to watch something like this.
The "mainstream populace" will never watch the GSL unless it's aired on big sports channels in the US and EU anyways. You'll never find a non-gamer visiting GomTV.net and watch Starcraft 2 because he's genuinely interested in it. If he was interested in Starcraft 2 or in SC2 as an eSport, he'd be playing SC2 and thus not be a non-gamer.
eSport just isn't like normal sport.
if some rich dude bought tv time on espn and put starcraft on it people would evinchly watch it.
On January 31 2011 07:43 Carthac wrote: The price is EXTREMELY reasonable. This is a sponsored tournament, and GSL is looking to make money because, I know this is going out on a limb here, but companies need money to continue doing business!
You pay 10 dollars, and you get 3 months of a high quality stream and all the vods. This also helps Artosis and Tasteless earn a decent living. Stop being so cheap, eat ramen for a few days if you have to, and buy the ticket.
Read the OP, of course its definitely reasonable price, if you are a starcraft fan.
But for mainstream populace, which includes majority of SC2 players, gets immediately turned off by the fact that you have to pay to be able to watch something like this.
The "mainstream populace" will never watch the GSL unless it's aired on big sports channels in the US and EU anyways. You'll never find a non-gamer visiting GomTV.net and watch Starcraft 2 because he's genuinely interested in it. If he was interested in Starcraft 2 or in SC2 as an eSport, he'd be playing SC2 and thus not be a non-gamer.
On January 31 2011 08:48 Befree wrote: I have a really hard time encouraging people to watch this. I mean what am I supposed to say to them? Just tell them to wake up at 4 AM? Or just tell them to pay for the VODs?
Games being streamed for free at other times of the day, or free access to SQ VODs would help me (and many others I'm sure) be able to actually encourage people to watch this. As it stands, I'm just demanding way too much from someone if I want them to watch the GSL.
Is there any chance they can cut advertising deals with foreign/international companies to be displayed on the foreign stream?
There's gotta be a large amount of people out there who would watch the GSL, but don't want to them at ridiculous times or pay for them. Wouldn't you think we would be the minority?
Get them involved in other ways first. GSL isn't the only tournament in the world for great SC 2 action. Hell, give them a top streamer or two to watch. When they get into it more, then revisit the paying for GSL issue.
I understand the time difference issue and if I was new to Starcraft, I wouldn't pay for it. But the solution I mentioned is why I do now pay for it now. GOM has to cater to the timing of Korea because, well, they're in Korea lol. It wouldn't make much sense to cater to us and screw over the people in Korea and make them stream at weird times.
On January 31 2011 08:58 Mr.Minionman wrote: Not paying for it. Attempted to get a ticket, but the format is confusing, and it's extremely hard to tell what they are selling. I'll just stick to watching free casters and streams, thx.
Go to gomtv.net. Click the top banner, starcraft 2 team league February. Click the banner that says tickets now on sale. Read about what the premium servers offer, click buy a season ticket. Scroll to bottom, click purchase. Fill in payment information.
Congratulations you just bought yourself access to the HQ stream and VODs for the month.
On January 31 2011 09:02 Anomarad wrote: They should just play a recorded stream of the last matches every 6 hours or something (like normal TV plays recordings everyday till the next weeks episode). Both parties would win, it would still be beneficial to pay to watch the VODs when you want and which one you want but still allows people who don't want to pull out their CC to watch at appropriate hours in the day.
Problem solved.
Absolutely lets restream every 6 hrs content that is already hosted on their site for what will mostly be a net loss; You win, not gomtv and you must remember gomtv is a company out to deliver a good product and make a profit. This will not be a win-win so why market it as such?
If GomTV has to pay a lot of money to offer VODs because of bandwidth, why can't they just upload them to YouTube for free and get money in the process through advertisements?
Herein lies the problem though, if someone watches a movie trailer they go to a torrent site and download it, and then complain when quality of movies drops (as it has in the past decade)
That's not really comparable. There is a theory that the reason hollywood films are worse, is the financial crisis, with studios not daring to take any huge risks anymore, so they essentially just put out "safe" boring blockbusters.
Oh and I torrent movies too, but still pay for GSL? Finding the VOD's or restreams isn't worth the hassle, much better paying for it to avoid it. (it's like nothing now.. I pay more for a junk food meal, so skipping one of those meals to pay for this is an easy choice ) Also, it caters specifically to internet users like us.. what movie studio is doing that for us? Answer is none, so the choice which to support is easy for me.
I personally think that paying is completely worth it, but newcomers probably wouldn't ride that same train of thought.
I think they should lag the releases by an entire GSL season. For example, release all of the S1 vods for free after S2 ends and so on and so forth. They are a company first and foremost and must do what it takes to support themselves, otherwise they'll cripple and die.
my guess a better payment model would be, make the low quality vods free for all, but let it be matches only, and give paying subscribers access to HQ vods, interviews, and maybe some more content, like in depth analysis by tastosis of certain games, bio's about players, etc.
this way you can introduce people to a good series and get them exited (recommend someone a good best of 7) and if they like it, they'll stick around and become a regular viewer, and if they think its worth it over time they'll go subscribe
this might be a bit more longterm but these subscription models have been done before so its not something radical, just might need a bit more content for the paid customer.
As a paying customer of GOMs services I think the $10 dollars is totaly worth it.
I don't think think it hurts e-sports to much since someone who don't know much about Starcraft 2 would probably not watch all the vods. Being able to watch just a few should be enough to make yourself a picture of the e-sport elements.
What's important for SC2 as an e-sport is that GOM stays alive and if these service fees are needed to do so then there shouldn't be much to discuss about.
I think they should lag the releases by an entire GSL season. For example, release all of the S1 vods for free after S2 ends and so on and so forth. They are a company first and foremost and must do what it takes to support themselves, otherwise they'll cripple and die.
This could be a good idea. Though the games in S1 and S2 will probably be weird to watch
I think they did a good job with the way they decide to make money off of it for their expenses.
You can watch this real crappy video which is good enough for people who have no idea what e-sports or Starcraft is. The better quality video if your already into it which chances are you won't mind paying if your idle player is in the tournament.
Also keep in mind even if you don't watch it live you can go HERE and watch even gsl matches. Gsl matches however are in video form unlike the rest of them which are actual replays. Also it does take some time usually for them to get posted.
I went back and forth over whether or not to buy the first three season's pass for the GSL. Finally, this time around I decided to get the premium package. Man was it worth it. If you enjoy watching SC2 then there's no reason not to buy this. For 10 bucks you get HOURS and HOURS of good matches. One trip to the movies? $10.00 for one ticket. Going out to eat? Unless you hit up the dollar menu at some cheap place, you're not gonna get too much under $10. I just believe it's too insignificant an amount considering the large amount of matches/viewing time you get. But, in the end it's all up to what you value more.
Look at the way Day[9] does things. He has a massive fanbase because of his kickass content, and the freedom thereof. GOM has kickass content as well, but more people watch Day9 than the GSL HQ stream.
On January 31 2011 09:18 Rzn`WiseGuy wrote: Look at the way Day[9] does things. He has a massive fanbase because of his kickass content, and the freedom thereof. GOM has kickass content as well, but more people watch Day9 than the GSL HQ stream.
more people watch Day 9 than the GSL HQ stream? Where are the numbers supporting that?
I think they should lag the releases by an entire GSL season. For example, release all of the S1 vods for free after S2 ends and so on and so forth. They are a company first and foremost and must do what it takes to support themselves, otherwise they'll cripple and die.
This could be a good idea. Though the games in S1 and S2 will probably be weird to watch
They are weird, dude. They are so. weird.
I watch them now and have no idea how I didn't notice all the "wait what the hell is this guy doing" moments in S1.
On January 31 2011 09:07 lowkontrast wrote: If GomTV has to pay a lot of money to offer VODs because of bandwidth, why can't they just upload them to YouTube for free and get money in the process through advertisements?
listen to this man, he is a true gentlemen and a scholar
Charging a fee to watch GSL at a reasonable time (sorry, but live at 4 am doesn't count) is basically just stunting most potential growth GSL has in the West.
I've said it before and will say it again: media, with the advent of the internet, has to be free and ad-supported. This is absolutely essential for media specifically created FOR the web.
I've paid every season far, and it is incredible how many VOD's you get for the price. The first time I discovered it I thought the price was very reasonable, but for the first two seasons the VOD's were ridiculously slow and apparently the stream was too, but you can see GOM putting the money back into upgrading the server; the VOD's run very well now, even on my crappy internet connection and is definitely worth it.
On January 31 2011 06:30 mprs wrote: I think people can still watch SQ live for free, which isn't too bad...
Not VODs.
I think its an awful policy that shows very little understanding of how to grow a sport. Historically things like baseball became much bigger when they began to give out content for free (like when baseball was first put on the radio).
If I was new to the scene and ran across the GSL website, I would be out of there immediately as soon as I saw you need to pay. It would turn me to something else and make me forget about SC2 instantly.
Worldwide long term video hosting is very expensive, they have to pay for it somehow
On January 31 2011 09:22 hmunkey wrote: Charging a fee to watch GSL at a reasonable time (sorry, but live at 4 am doesn't count) is basically just stunting most potential growth GSL has in the West.
I've said it before and will say it again: media, with the advent of the internet, has to be free and ad-supported. This is absolutely essential for media specifically created FOR the web.
However ad blockers mean that ad revenue isnt coming in especially from ppl who use ad blocking software (generally in my experience ad blockers are used by tech savvy people). Also in my experience SC players and interested people are tech savvy.
On youtube HD/Husky/Day9 always have videos in the entertainment/gaming section trending on the browse page so I think SC2 is getting good enough representation on youtube imo and GSL isn't expensive and they can avoid ad blockers hurting their revenue and costs of streaming and hosting all this content.
A lot of people are forgetting that GOMTV is a company, and a company is in business to make money. Does GOMTV love eSports? As far as a major corporation goes, yes.
If GOMTV didn't make money, there wouldn't be a tournament. What's worse for eSports, not having free vods for a tournament or not having the tournament at all?
Does most of their money come from sponsors? Overwhelmingly of course it does, but having the extra money they get from the tickets is the only reason the streams are even watchable in any way nowadays, and more than that it shows sponsors that people are paying money for GOMTV's service. Like OmegaX said, $10 is lunch at Subway or another fast food joint. It's a movie at the theatre, it's a minor bet between friends, it's not a whole lot of money. It's roughly an hour of work for a HUGE amount of content.
Personally, I just think people are too lazy to go to the damn website and click the buttons it takes to buy the ticket.
Posters in this thread have made a lot of good points. I'll try and organize some for those who aren't interested in reading all (currently) 11 pages of postings.
Question: Is chargeing for hq streams and vods detrimental to GomTV's goal of attracting new viewers? Are there additional methods of attracting new viewers that aren't being explored?
So far we have two schools of thought. One side says that the monetary cost of vods and hq streaming is an immediate turn off for potential customers. Added to this is a lock of convenient access to free streaming content and limited access to free vods.
Suggestions to solve these problems have been to add YouTube access for vods and restreaming at different hours so that more people can watch the free stream content in different global time zones. Also the suggestion of allowing delayed access to all vods at a low quality for free two weeks to a month after the tournament has been made.
Proponents of GomTV's current business model contend that there is already a large amount of free to view vod content to give potential viewers a taste of what premium service includes. The price for premium service, access to hq streamng and vods, is a very reasonable 9.99 US dollars. There is also an immense amount of free sc2 commentary content online that is easily accessed to pique the interest of new fans. The quality of players and number of games available in high quality streaming and vods with good English commentary is not available for less money anywhere else barring a pirated version of GomTV's content. (just because pirated stuff is available for free does not mean you are entitled to view professional entertainment for free. if you enjoy GomTV English commentary of GSL, pay for it to support it you self-important thieves)
In my opinion the quality of GomTV ocntent is well worth the money paid at 10 bucks. However, I do think a YouTube channel providing the low quality free vods would give GomTV more exposure to exploring casual fans. I found TeamLiquid.net by using YouTube to find Brood War vods with English commentary. I came across enough Tastless and SuperDanielman videos that I went to the GomTV source to watch the content. Through that I heard about TL, and have been a forum lurker since for esport news and, now, sc2 discussion. My point is that without YouTube content, I would not have come across the Korean progaming scene.
That said, business is business. I doubt GomTV is targetting a non-paying audience (minors without credit cards included) with their business plan. You can and should move on to other free content elsewhere if you are not willing to pay for the GomTV entertainment service. Nobody forces you to pay to watch GSL, and you are capable of living without it. Please keep that in mind when you begin to rage about actually paying for something online.
I wish there was a way for the company to give access to some replay files to its customers. I know that YouTube commentary would then be able to compete with GomTV then though at no cost :'(. Maybe releasing some replays from previous seasons or just a few files from contemporary games would give GomTV more exposure to its online audience?
Herein lies the problem though, if someone watches a movie trailer they go to a torrent site and download it, and then complain when quality of movies drops (as it has in the past decade)
That's not really comparable. There is a theory that the reason hollywood films are worse, is the financial crisis, with studios not daring to take any huge risks anymore, so they essentially just put out "safe" boring blockbusters.
Oh and I torrent movies too, but still pay for GSL? Finding the VOD's or restreams isn't worth the hassle, much better paying for it to avoid it. (it's like nothing now.. I pay more for a junk food meal, so skipping one of those meals to pay for this is an easy choice ) Also, it caters specifically to internet users like us.. what movie studio is doing that for us? Answer is none, so the choice which to support is easy for me.
Living in Australia and being from a small town if I don't torrent movies and tv shows im not likely to see them. I also pay for gsl and donate to things I see of making a future in esports (day9) but the thing is if anyone remembers the uproar about day9 asking for donations is that in this day and age everyone wants it for free if they can get it. They want hours of entertainment for nothing because that is what they are used to. That was my meaning with my previous statement. These days if people see something they like I guarantee 90% of younger ppl today dont plan on going to cinemas open night. They wait for it to hit the net same with music. As to the theory of the financial crisis, I'm not saying that Internet downloads caused it by any means but if people were going to the movies and not downloading theyd be generating more income, be more safe and in turn take more risks?? Same things goes here. If we don't support gom how will they know to take a risk? Sorry if post is in a bad format. Had to do this on my phone and can't see whole post to format nicely or do editing :/
Not that I disagree with supporting e-sports but If I were to pay for the GSL I would want downloadable HQ VODs, which are available for free on a few other websites.
I think that the LQ vods should be free and all VODs should be downloadable to be seen on mobile devices, etc. Until then I will watch the stream and use other methods of watching. Not because I don't like GOM but because I think that their marketing plan is flawed. If I were to watch live through premium ticket it would be 2am/5am and my internet is rather bad so I have to wait for them to buffer so I would rather be able to download the VODs while I'm at work and have them when I come back, my TV has a usb port on the side that lets me put media files on an external drive and watch on my TV which makes it that much more enjoyable.
Also. the gom vods on youtube for highlight videos and whatnot should be alright as long as they are below 3 minutes per match, that should be allowed in my opinion so fans can create highlight videos and what not.
Their marketing is flawed simple as that. Why buy a cow when you can get the milk for free and can put it into a container to use later. ~ Just my opinion again like I said. I do enjoy the commentating, Tasteless, Artosis, Day9 and Incontrol are the only commentators I can stand listening to, the others seem not to anyone play if they are in masters, It seems I get worse watching others, and the games played have very good players, always fun to watch but would be better once a new map pool is introduced., I wish they would get more advertisements in and lowered the prize pool to make it more feasible for VODs and fix the VODs issue.
Edit: Starcraft 2 is new, people are just getting into it. TL is growing due to the release, people wont pay 10$ for a this because it is imperfect. BW viewers don't pay to view BW games and are easy to download via torrent so BW viewers may be less likely to pay for it aswell because it is a new idea.
Unless you have information about GOM TV's financials and how expensive it is to stream to their overseas fanbase, please don't claim that GOM TV would be financially better off if they offered their VODs and such for free.
GOM TV is trying to make money - not grow the scene. If the GSL was the only SC2 tournament, this might be a problem. But other tournaments and people like Husky and HD do a good enough job of growing the scene that GOM doesn't need to take that burden upon itself.
Just because it would benefit you more if GOM tv offered their product for free doesn't necessarily make it a sound business decision.
On January 31 2011 09:18 Rzn`WiseGuy wrote: Look at the way Day[9] does things. He has a massive fanbase because of his kickass content, and the freedom thereof. GOM has kickass content as well, but more people watch Day9 than the GSL HQ stream.
This is such a bad comparison. You're comparing an entire company that has to support itself to a single person who uploads videos in his spare time. Obviously, Day[9] provides awesome content for free, but does he run massive tournaments with massive prize pools? Does he have to employ a staff? Does he have to stream live games and VODs through his own services (he uses ustream + blip)?
Also, more people watch Day[9] than GSL? Says who?
Essentially, its the price of being early adopters, the service is new and that makes it expensive to maintain. Once its grown some and GOM can get more income from advertising I'd expect to see the VODs go free to watch as well (probably with ads stuck in but if its those hilariously cheesy korean ones that'll not be such a bad thing).
Another thing to remember is that advertising is tough to find for an international stream. Who is going to sponsor a program with a limited viewer base spread around the globe? McDonald's? Walmart?
There isn't much of a return on the advertising investment for most companies outside of Korea, so until there is, it's likely that you'll shell out some cash for international content.
Until GOM comes out with an acceptable free plan, as much as I want to support them with my views, I will watch the GSL via other means. So no, paying to watch GSL matches is not a good idea. You should not support a bad business model.
On January 31 2011 07:43 Carthac wrote: The price is EXTREMELY reasonable. This is a sponsored tournament, and GSL is looking to make money because, I know this is going out on a limb here, but companies need money to continue doing business!
You pay 10 dollars, and you get 3 months of a high quality stream and all the vods. This also helps Artosis and Tasteless earn a decent living. Stop being so cheap, eat ramen for a few days if you have to, and buy the ticket.
Read the OP, of course its definitely reasonable price, if you are a starcraft fan.
But for mainstream populace, which includes majority of SC2 players, gets immediately turned off by the fact that you have to pay to be able to watch something like this.
The "mainstream populace" will never watch the GSL unless it's aired on big sports channels in the US and EU anyways. You'll never find a non-gamer visiting GomTV.net and watch Starcraft 2 because he's genuinely interested in it. If he was interested in Starcraft 2 or in SC2 as an eSport, he'd be playing SC2 and thus not be a non-gamer.
eSport just isn't like normal sport.
Poker. How did that happen?
Poker is a mainstream hobby and gambling sport, not comparable to SC2 at all. There was also the poker boom when Chris Moneymaker won the WSOP that gave it a huge boost
On January 31 2011 09:18 Rzn`WiseGuy wrote: Look at the way Day[9] does things. He has a massive fanbase because of his kickass content, and the freedom thereof. GOM has kickass content as well, but more people watch Day9 than the GSL HQ stream.
This doesn't mean anything and its also something that you've just made up.
Remember Day9 doesn't put up a $100,000 prize pool every month, doesn't have a significant number of staff to employ, doesn't offer HQ VODS without any advertisments, doesn't own his own studio to film live games.
If anyone could think of a Starcraft 2 service that was similar and of comparable quality to GOM but didn't charge then all these people whining about having to pay might have a point. But there simply isn't.
On January 31 2011 07:43 Carthac wrote: The price is EXTREMELY reasonable. This is a sponsored tournament, and GSL is looking to make money because, I know this is going out on a limb here, but companies need money to continue doing business!
You pay 10 dollars, and you get 3 months of a high quality stream and all the vods. This also helps Artosis and Tasteless earn a decent living. Stop being so cheap, eat ramen for a few days if you have to, and buy the ticket.
Read the OP, of course its definitely reasonable price, if you are a starcraft fan.
But for mainstream populace, which includes majority of SC2 players, gets immediately turned off by the fact that you have to pay to be able to watch something like this.
The "mainstream populace" will never watch the GSL unless it's aired on big sports channels in the US and EU anyways. You'll never find a non-gamer visiting GomTV.net and watch Starcraft 2 because he's genuinely interested in it. If he was interested in Starcraft 2 or in SC2 as an eSport, he'd be playing SC2 and thus not be a non-gamer.
eSport just isn't like normal sport.
Poker. How did that happen?
Poker is a mainstream hobby and gambling sport, not comparable to SC2 at all. There was also the poker boom when Chris Moneymaker won the WSOP that gave it a huge boost
It became a mainstream hobby. Poker's popularity in the 1990 wasn't considered mainstream at all.
GOM is a company - they have to pay 5 casters, a huge tech and equipment crew, rent for their studio, rent for the finals stadium, prize pools to lots of players, translators, marketing people, etc etc. It's unreasonable to ask them to give out a free VOD service for everyone because they need to make money to support themselves.
Also, let's not think of it as an evil thing if the company turns a profit. They can put that money back into GSL, making it bigger, better, and thus supporting the players and community even more. The more they get in funds, the better the product will be.
As such, if you don't want to pay, that's cool - you will support with viewership, word of mouth, etc. I understand being a poor college student, but I am a non-poor college student personally because I do programming for $9/hr while watching GSL so...
On January 31 2011 09:47 dabom88 wrote: Until GOM comes out with an acceptable free plan, as much as I want to support them with my views, I will watch the GSL via other means. So no, paying to watch GSL matches is not a good idea. You should not support a flawed business model.
It is so laughable that you think you would be 'supporting them' just by watching a free stream / vods. You also fail to mention why paying for GSL is not a good idea and how its flawed business model.
It seems you are one of the many naive posters in this thread with the arguement of - 'it should be free because i don't want to pay.'
On January 31 2011 10:03 Isomer wrote: GOM is a company - they have to pay 5 casters, a huge tech and equipment crew, rent for their studio, rent for the finals stadium, prize pools to lots of players, translators, marketing people, etc etc. It's unreasonable to ask them to give out a free VOD service for everyone because they need to make money to support themselves.
Also, let's not think of it as an evil thing if the company turns a profit. They can put that money back into GSL, making it bigger, better, and thus supporting the players and community even more. The more they get in funds, the better the product will be.
As such, if you don't want to pay, that's cool - you will support with viewership, word of mouth, etc. I understand being a poor college student, but I am a non-poor college student personally because I do programming for $9/hr while watching GSL so...
Its actually weird how the GSL is leaving out a major audience demographics aged 8-18 from watching the GSL. Especially since this is essentially a video game, a good chunk of its audiences would be younger and not necessarily from College.
I'm always happy to pay and I think given the improvements in the quality of the VoDs it is clear they are putting our money to good work.
Seriously its $10 a month for like 50+ hours of content. Its the same price as renting 2 movies at blockbuster.
That said its unclear to what extent they are limiting their own market by charging. However, for most companies, limiting your customer base to people who are actually willing to pay for products is profitable.
On January 31 2011 10:03 Isomer wrote: GOM is a company - they have to pay 5 casters, a huge tech and equipment crew, rent for their studio, rent for the finals stadium, prize pools to lots of players, translators, marketing people, etc etc. It's unreasonable to ask them to give out a free VOD service for everyone because they need to make money to support themselves.
Also, let's not think of it as an evil thing if the company turns a profit. They can put that money back into GSL, making it bigger, better, and thus supporting the players and community even more. The more they get in funds, the better the product will be.
As such, if you don't want to pay, that's cool - you will support with viewership, word of mouth, etc. I understand being a poor college student, but I am a non-poor college student personally because I do programming for $9/hr while watching GSL so...
Well they could always have a joint partnership with MBC like they did for Starcraft for 5 seasons. Have the games televised and make the VODS a payment while still making them accessible to youtube.
The answer to the original question of whether it's a good idea or not to pay for it, the answer is YES!! I didn't pay for it in the first 2 seasons and it was fun. However the last 2 seasons I did purchase it and it was a freakin blast watching all the VOD's and then live in HQ whenever I wanted with no worries. I ended up watching every single match and loved it all (except for all the T domination of course made me sick).
However, you're leaving out so much potential future customers/fans by making us pay a few bucks.
OK, let's say they did. And this doubled, or even quadrupled their viewerbase.
So, where does GOM make the money for 2x to 4x the bandwidth costs? Remember, they went from many paying customers to 0 paying customers. And they doubled or quadrupled their bandwidth costs.
However many may be left out for not wanting to pay doesn't matter in a financial sense, because you're losing money. Losing money is not a way to make money, unless you have a plan whereby you lose money for a time only to make it up later.
People generally don't like it if you give something away for free, then charge them for it later. So what is your plan for them to make money in the future?
SUPPORTING ESPORTS IS A BIG SCAM I DONT PAY FOR ANYTHING!!!!!!
i love supporting esports i even got a gomtv premium account. $9.99 is just change if you think about it, and plus your supporting somthing that you believe in. Remember the more bandwidth the higher quality!
The way I see it, the GSL is 95% aimed at the Korean market. If that weren't true, then why not just hold the tournament in the USA and force Korean players travel to the USA to compete? If millions of Americans started watching the GSL, I'm sure we'd have our own grand SC2 competition similar to GSL that we could all watch for free on TV, b/c companies would be paying loads of money for advertisement time.
I'm happy to just be able to watch the highest level Korean SC2 and to have such high quality, professional commentary in English provided by tastosis.
And I agree with tarath, the audience demographic "aged 8-18" goes to the movie theaters all the time paying $10 for a 120 minute movie. With the GSL, you're paying "$10 for like 50+ hours of content." Maybe people are just less used to paying for online content, which tends most of the time to be absolutely free?
On January 31 2011 09:27 NuKedUFirst wrote: Not that I disagree with supporting e-sports but If I were to pay for the GSL I would want downloadable HQ VODs, which are available for free on a few other websites.
I think that the LQ vods should be free and all VODs should be downloadable to be seen on mobile devices, etc. Until then I will watch the stream and use other methods of watching. Not because I don't like GOM but because I think that their marketing plan is flawed. If I were to watch live through premium ticket it would be 2am/5am and my internet is rather bad so I have to wait for them to buffer so I would rather be able to download the VODs while I'm at work and have them when I come back, my TV has a usb port on the side that lets me put media files on an external drive and watch on my TV which makes it that much more enjoyable.
Also. the gom vods on youtube for highlight videos and whatnot should be alright as long as they are below 3 minutes per match, that should be allowed in my opinion so fans can create highlight videos and what not.
Their marketing is flawed simple as that. Why buy a cow when you can get the milk for free and can put it into a container to use later. ~ Just my opinion again like I said. I do enjoy the commentating, Tasteless, Artosis, Day9 and Incontrol are the only commentators I can stand listening to, the others seem not to anyone play if they are in masters, It seems I get worse watching others, and the games played have very good players, always fun to watch but would be better once a new map pool is introduced., I wish they would get more advertisements in and lowered the prize pool to make it more feasible for VODs and fix the VODs issue.
Edit: Starcraft 2 is new, people are just getting into it. TL is growing due to the release, people wont pay 10$ for a this because it is imperfect. BW viewers don't pay to view BW games and are easy to download via torrent so BW viewers may be less likely to pay for it aswell because it is a new idea.
I love how you claim their marketing strategy is flawed when you have absolutely no idea what their marketing strategy is all together. Heck the only reasoning you've provided about your dissatisfaction of GOM is that they don't conform with every one of your specific standards and needs. If you can't even stream the VODs, your main concern should be getting better ISP or plan.
However, you're leaving out so much potential future customers/fans by making us pay a few bucks.
OK, let's say they did. And this doubled, or even quadrupled their viewerbase.
So, where does GOM make the money for 2x to 4x the bandwidth costs? Remember, they went from many paying customers to 0 paying customers. And they doubled or quadrupled their bandwidth costs.
However many may be left out for not wanting to pay doesn't matter in a financial sense, because you're losing money. Losing money is not a way to make money, unless you have a plan whereby you lose money for a time only to make it up later.
People generally don't like it if you give something away for free, then charge them for it later. So what is your plan for them to make money in the future?
If the viewership rates go up, increase the rates you charge from the advertisers that you'd get for the higher views.
I buy every season but GOM REALLY needs to let it's VOD's (at least SQ) be free for everyone with maybe like a 48 hour delay or w/e like they did it in BW.
There is so many games I would love to be able to link my family and friends to, but alas cannot without them subbing.
It's really kind of silly seeing as most of the people here have no clue how much money they make off of advertisements/sponsorships compared to how much they make just from the subscription. It's also an unbelievably wild assumption, especially given what we already know about the nature of most corporations, that the money is going to go back into e-sports and not just into the pockets of whoever is running the show. Unless you actually know what their expenses are, telling people that they need to subscribe to keep GOM alive is really stupid.
On January 31 2011 09:47 dabom88 wrote: Until GOM comes out with an acceptable free plan, as much as I want to support them with my views, I will watch the GSL via other means. So no, paying to watch GSL matches is not a good idea. You should not support a flawed business model.
It is so laughable that you think you would be 'supporting them' just by watching a free stream / vods. You also fail to mention why paying for GSL is not a good idea and how its flawed business model.
It seems you are one of the many naive posters in this thread with the arguement of - 'it should be free because i don't want to pay.'
Yeah, maybe you failed to acknowledge the part where people mentioned advertisements. I know it's a wild and crazy system, but maybe you should turn on your cable TV and check out how it works sometime. They seem to have it figured out, and I don't have to pay monthly fees to watch basic tv. The flawed business model is trying to expand your viewership by charging them money to watch a full tournament. Try reading the thread?
It's really hard to tell the difference between people who actually think GOM's payment model is a good idea, and those who have too large of an ego to admit that they may be paying money for no reason other than the fact that GOM is telling them it's good for e-sports. Some of us prefer to look a little deeper and ask WHY we need to provide the funding for the future of e-sports when there is already a working model for profitable, free media distribution.
On January 31 2011 10:23 SolidusR wrote: It's really kind of silly seeing as most of the people here have no clue how much money they make off of advertisements/sponsorships compared to how much they make just from the subscription. It's also an unbelievably wild assumption, especially given what we already know about the nature of most corporations, that the money is going to go back into e-sports and not just into the pockets of whoever is running the show. Unless you actually know what their expenses are, telling people that they need to subscribe to keep GOM alive is really stupid.
It's funny because you also have no clue about their economic situation and where the money is flowing and yet make the same "unbelievably wild assumptions" that you have been telling people were stupid in the first place.
ITS SO CHEAP for the amount of money you have to pay to watch endless and endless hours of GSL i mean 10 dollars is like 7 euros - thats one time trip to the cinema - for 1 month of pure pleasure ^_^ - I tried it one time - i got convinced and now im a happy customer
GSL needs to incorporate VODS with ads and such. Live streaming needs to be paid for by sponsors not people watching. If you require people to pay to watch, then you slow future growth of the viewer-ship for short term gains.
On January 31 2011 09:34 rightstuff wrote: Another thing to remember is that advertising is tough to find for an international stream. Who is going to sponsor a program with a limited viewer base spread around the globe? McDonald's? Walmart?
There isn't much of a return on the advertising investment for most companies outside of Korea, so until there is, it's likely that you'll shell out some cash for international content.
I've yet to see anyone address this. People keep saying advertising is the way to go...but who is going to do it? Can anyone think of companies that will pay 10's of thousands of dollars(to compensate for subscription fee losses) to advertise to the international GSL audience?
if you want to watch the GSL live, and have to stay up every day till 4 or 6 am depending on where you live (in the USA) then get the package, it's only $10, yeah $10!!!! And you get that entire season, HQ stream AND extremely HQ vods.
VODs will stay a pay-fee. It has always been like that. Its not the VODs that need to be focused on (nor on advertising).
The problem is two-folds: 1) GOM does not let others to upload GSL videos on youtube. If making us pay is because of the bandwidth use, then use Youtube's bandwidth. A LOT more accessible. 2) There are no televised games because MBC and OGN are barred from televising Starcraft 2. I hate to bring up the Blizzard vs Kespa, but that thing needs to be resolved if SC2 want a broader audience.
Where else can you see the best players in SC2 playing each other, with commentary, in HQ, and watch the VODs over and over again?
Want to work on your splitting? Simple, go watch Foxer vs Kyrix on Zel Naga Caverns in Season 2 over and over again until you pick up how he does it. (Good luck)
Problem with your macro? Check out how players like Nada and MVP will actually que up 2-3 SCVs sometimes before they push or drop.
Idra seems to always know exactly how many banes and lings will bust a main. Freeze a VOD and count them, bitches!
Watch how players abuse the high ground, and where to best place that Spine Crawler to fight off that Thor on the Cliff, like only Idra and Fruitdealer can.
When I watch the GSL vods, I take note of the strategies used, what works, what didnt and why. I am building an Excel spreadsheet going all the way back to Season 2. (season 1 had poor balance)
Sure, there are YouTube VODs, but I prefer Tastosis, regardless of their bias and premature GG predictions. They are funny, knowlegeble, and often will throw in some insight that I would never have picked up on my own.
When you consider, that these GSL seasons are less than the cost of a decent pizza, what the hell are we even arguing about? If you cant afford the GSL, should you really be playing video games? Get a job. If you are a kid, cut some fucking grass. Shit, cut my grass, I'll buy you a season.
On January 31 2011 10:20 oygp wrote: The way I see it, the GSL is 95% aimed at the Korean market. If that weren't true, then why not just hold the tournament in the USA and force Korean players travel to the USA to compete? If millions of Americans started watching the GSL, I'm sure we'd have our own grand SC2 competition similar to GSL that we could all watch for free on TV, b/c companies would be paying loads of money for advertisement time.
I'm happy to just be able to watch the highest level Korean SC2 and to have such high quality, professional commentary in English provided by tastosis.
And I agree with tarath, the audience demographic "aged 8-18" goes to the movie theaters all the time paying $10 for a 120 minute movie. With the GSL, you're paying "$10 for like 50+ hours of content." Maybe people are just less used to paying for online content, which tends most of the time to be absolutely free?
GSL may be aimed at the Korean market, but I would like to point out that you can find vods of the games hours after the game FOR FREE if you happen to live in Korea. Just something to throw out there.
if it was expensive I would totally agree that they should not be charging for it.
but it is so ridiculously cheap that complaining about it makes you a silly fucking goose.
The entitlement complex of some people is colossally incredible. You want them to run all of this for free? They already provide a free stream which, while it has its problems and used to be quite poor, is now very stable and relatively decent quality. If for whatever reason you can't watch it live, skip Subway for one day, drop the $10 on a season ticket and watch ridiculously high quality VODs anytime you want. $10 is such a ridiculously inconsequential amount of money unless you have no income whatsoever. Hell, if you smoke, why not quit smoking and use a fraction of the saved money on the GSL subscription? or cut down on the amount of alcohol you drink, or buy a couple less cheap games on Steam the next time you go on a Steam spending spree.
There is absolutely no one whose finances are so tight that they can't find $10 somewhere if they really want to see the GSL. And if you absolutely can't find the $10, you should just be grateful that there IS a free (albeit limited) option for people who are living that close to the edge.
And if you can't watch it live because you're in the US, tough shit. The rest of the world has had to deal with all kinds of international events being incredibly US-timezone favoured, for once you guys are the ones who have to deal with awkward timing, and a few vocal idiots think that is a reason to complain about a cheap price.
On January 31 2011 10:48 PukinDog wrote: It is worth it, PERIOD.
Where else can you see the best players in SC2 playing each other, with commentary, in HQ, and watch the VODs over and over again?
Want to work on your splitting? Simple, go watch Foxer vs Kyrix on Zel Naga Caverns in Season 2 over and over again until you pick up how he does it. (Good luck)
Problem with your macro? Check out how players like Nada and MVP will actually que up 2-3 SCVs sometimes before they push or drop.
Idra seems to always know exactly how many banes and lings will bust a main. Freeze a VOD and count them, bitches!
Watch how players abuse the high ground, and where to best place that Spine Crawler to fight off that Thor on the Cliff, like only Idra and Fruitdealer can.
When I watch the GSL vods, I take note of the strategies used, what works, what didnt and why. I am building an Excel spreadsheet going all the way back to Season 2. (season 1 had poor balance)
Sure, there are YouTube VODs, but I prefer Tastosis, regardless of their bias and premature GG predictions. They are funny, knowlegeble, and often will throw in some insight that I would never have picked up on my own.
When you consider, that these GSL seasons are less than the cost of a decent pizza, what the hell are we even arguing about? If you cant afford the GSL, should you really be playing video games? Get a job. If you are a kid, cut some fucking grass. Shit, cut my grass, I'll buy you a season.
Buy it.
Bitches.
Worth the $? Hell yes.
Worth it to people who know little to nothing about ESports or SCII and you are trying to convert over, or people who watch 1-10 SCII matches a month at most? Hell No.
To me it's not about the hardcore fans, it's a fantastic deal to them, but the casuals are hurt by this move. The casuals make up the bulk of the audience.....
On January 31 2011 10:48 PukinDog wrote: It is worth it, PERIOD.
Where else can you see the best players in SC2 playing each other, with commentary, in HQ, and watch the VODs over and over again?
Want to work on your splitting? Simple, go watch Foxer vs Kyrix on Zel Naga Caverns in Season 2 over and over again until you pick up how he does it. (Good luck)
Problem with your macro? Check out how players like Nada and MVP will actually que up 2-3 SCVs sometimes before they push or drop.
Idra seems to always know exactly how many banes and lings will bust a main. Freeze a VOD and count them, bitches!
Watch how players abuse the high ground, and where to best place that Spine Crawler to fight off that Thor on the Cliff, like only Idra and Fruitdealer can.
When I watch the GSL vods, I take note of the strategies used, what works, what didnt and why. I am building an Excel spreadsheet going all the way back to Season 2. (season 1 had poor balance)
Sure, there are YouTube VODs, but I prefer Tastosis, regardless of their bias and premature GG predictions. They are funny, knowlegeble, and often will throw in some insight that I would never have picked up on my own.
When you consider, that these GSL seasons are less than the cost of a decent pizza, what the hell are we even arguing about? If you cant afford the GSL, should you really be playing video games? Get a job. If you are a kid, cut some fucking grass. Shit, cut my grass, I'll buy you a season.
Buy it.
Bitches.
That is a good argument for buying GSL to improve skill, but 90% of gamers don't play SC2 and more than half don't care about improving their game to the point of studying GSL vods.
Personally, I think the GOM should try to become a youtube partner and get husky to get his subscribers to subscribe. Instantly they would have all of teamliquid AND all of Husky's viewer base (probably 300k viewers that don't visit TL or GOMTV). I am sure Husky or HD would have no problem praising GOM to further Esports. The reason they haven't already is mostly because most of their viewers are casual viewers and wouldn't pay. All the hardcore GSL fans are here on TL.
They could make the games 3 days delayed and their own paid service super good quality.
People don't like non youtube video sites and that is a fact. Esports will only explode through easily shared means, not through a log in, pay per view only website. If youtube stars like husky can make 100k a year, then surely GOM could make do with that. With youtube they have a chance of exploding in watchers, but without it they are not going to progress at all.
It's cheap, it's worth it, and they have a right to monetise it. There's even a free option for those who feel typical nerd-entitlement. Unless they start charging too much, it's fine. Great, even.
On January 31 2011 09:22 hmunkey wrote: Charging a fee to watch GSL at a reasonable time (sorry, but live at 4 am doesn't count) is basically just stunting most potential growth GSL has in the West.
I've said it before and will say it again: media, with the advent of the internet, has to be free and ad-supported. This is absolutely essential for media specifically created FOR the web.
However ad blockers mean that ad revenue isnt coming in especially from ppl who use ad blocking software (generally in my experience ad blockers are used by tech savvy people). Also in my experience SC players and interested people are tech savvy.
On youtube HD/Husky/Day9 always have videos in the entertainment/gaming section trending on the browse page so I think SC2 is getting good enough representation on youtube imo and GSL isn't expensive and they can avoid ad blockers hurting their revenue and costs of streaming and hosting all this content.
And that still hasn't hurt the bottom line of any other internet-based company. Either Gom is not doing it right and doesn't deserve to stay in business, or they would be profitable without having to charge a subscription fee.
If they can't meet their bottom line, they need to reconsider how they work as a company because frankly, the point of a company is to be profitable while sustaining growth.
You know ... technology is pretty advanced these days that I'm sure it is possible to have ads localized to your country. So yes, some Romanian company could advertise to Romanian GSL viewers and not to American viewers.
On January 31 2011 10:23 SolidusR wrote: It's really kind of silly seeing as most of the people here have no clue how much money they make off of advertisements/sponsorships compared to how much they make just from the subscription. It's also an unbelievably wild assumption, especially given what we already know about the nature of most corporations, that the money is going to go back into e-sports and not just into the pockets of whoever is running the show. Unless you actually know what their expenses are, telling people that they need to subscribe to keep GOM alive is really stupid.
On January 31 2011 09:47 dabom88 wrote: Until GOM comes out with an acceptable free plan, as much as I want to support them with my views, I will watch the GSL via other means. So no, paying to watch GSL matches is not a good idea. You should not support a flawed business model.
It is so laughable that you think you would be 'supporting them' just by watching a free stream / vods. You also fail to mention why paying for GSL is not a good idea and how its flawed business model.
It seems you are one of the many naive posters in this thread with the arguement of - 'it should be free because i don't want to pay.'
Yeah, maybe you failed to acknowledge the part where people mentioned advertisements. I know it's a wild and crazy system, but maybe you should turn on your cable TV and check out how it works sometime. They seem to have it figured out, and I don't have to pay monthly fees to watch basic tv. The flawed business model is trying to expand your viewership by charging them money to watch a full tournament. Try reading the thread?
It's really hard to tell the difference between people who actually think GOM's payment model is a good idea, and those who have too large of an ego to admit that they may be paying money for no reason other than the fact that GOM is telling them it's good for e-sports. Some of us prefer to look a little deeper and ask WHY we need to provide the funding for the future of e-sports when there is already a working model for profitable, free media distribution.
So much fail in your post i don't know where to begin. Aside from it being pointless comparing cable tv to an international online stream as they are completely different systems i'll run along with it for you.
You are stupid enough to prove yourself wrong with your own analogy. Cable tv charges a MONTHLY FEE. As does GOM. Sure you can get the basic tv for free, i suppose the starcraft equivalent would he HD / Husky. But for a good show on HBO where a lot of money is invested in the production to bring you a quality you rarely get outside of cable tv you have to pay extra. HBO seems to make money without advertisments and still attract enough viewers to make a profit. Is it as many viewers compared to if they aired the shows on basic tv? Probably not but it earns them far bigger profits this way which in turn allows them to produce more high quality shows.
Now GOM obviously isn't trying to expand their viewership by charging money. They are charging money to cover expenses and to make a profit. They are trying to expand their viewership by offering a free stream and free games to watch with the hope that it will entice you to pay for the premium package.
If you don't think its worth it, fair enough. GOM isn't going to spend more of their resources offering restreams / free VODs to those who have no intention of paying. There is enough free content out there for people to make that decision. Giving more free content would just discourage those who are willing to pay from doing so because they may then find all the content they need can now be gained for free.
Maybe if you had read the thread you would also be aware that making money from advertising isn't as simple as you think either. Finding compaines wanting to advertise to an international audience of this relatively small scale isn't easy. Throwing videos on youtube would make an insignificant amount of income. While it would bring GSL to a wider audience you must remember that the more free content GOM provide the less people are going to feel it necessary to pay for more.
If you really think it is a more profitable business model for GOM to offer all of their content free of charge when they have to pay all bandwith fees and have so far been unsuccessful in finding international advertisers then you are even stupider than i originally thought. You don't have to look very hard to understand why it is necessary for companies such as GOM to charge a fee when they are offering more content of a higher quality than anyone else in the industry.
I think it was a bad idea for them to charge for the first couple seasons. I think it would have been beneficial for them to offer the hq stream for free but say that they will start charging $20/season at the start of the new year because I think it would have attracted more people to the free stream and watching a couple GSL's might coax some into buying it for the new year who would not have bought it up front
On January 31 2011 10:48 PukinDog wrote: It is worth it, PERIOD.
Where else can you see the best players in SC2 playing each other, with commentary, in HQ, and watch the VODs over and over again?
Want to work on your splitting? Simple, go watch Foxer vs Kyrix on Zel Naga Caverns in Season 2 over and over again until you pick up how he does it. (Good luck)
Problem with your macro? Check out how players like Nada and MVP will actually que up 2-3 SCVs sometimes before they push or drop.
Idra seems to always know exactly how many banes and lings will bust a main. Freeze a VOD and count them, bitches!
Watch how players abuse the high ground, and where to best place that Spine Crawler to fight off that Thor on the Cliff, like only Idra and Fruitdealer can.
When I watch the GSL vods, I take note of the strategies used, what works, what didnt and why. I am building an Excel spreadsheet going all the way back to Season 2. (season 1 had poor balance)
Sure, there are YouTube VODs, but I prefer Tastosis, regardless of their bias and premature GG predictions. They are funny, knowlegeble, and often will throw in some insight that I would never have picked up on my own.
When you consider, that these GSL seasons are less than the cost of a decent pizza, what the hell are we even arguing about? If you cant afford the GSL, should you really be playing video games? Get a job. If you are a kid, cut some fucking grass. Shit, cut my grass, I'll buy you a season.
Buy it.
Bitches.
Worth the $? Hell yes.
Worth it to people who know little to nothing about ESports or SCII and you are trying to convert over, or people who watch 1-10 SCII matches a month at most? Hell No.
To me it's not about the hardcore fans, it's a fantastic deal to them, but the casuals are hurt by this move. The casuals make up the bulk of the audience.....
Screw Casuals.
Casual viewers are not what this game needs. Blizzard has sold 4M copies of this game. If 10% of those purchasers watch the GSL, then GOM will be fat dumb and happy.
They should appeal to the hardcore SC & SC2 players, not some herp-a-derp jerk who bought the game based on a review in PC World. That person does NOT help the community.
Anyone who has to be convinced to love this game, is NOT someone I want GOM to waste a minute on trying to convince them. If you dont love Starcraft, F-off and go play something else.
This is a hardcore game, for hardcore gamers. It is NOT for everyone, because it is too damn hard to get good at it. When you try to appeal to the masses, that usually means dumb'ing it down for them.
On January 31 2011 11:14 lac29 wrote: You know ... technology is pretty advanced these days that I'm sure it is possible to have ads localized to your country. So yes, some Romanian company could advertise to Romanian GSL viewers and not to American viewers.
The problem is convincing that Romanian company to pay for advertising for what is a niche form of entertainment.
On January 31 2011 10:48 PukinDog wrote: It is worth it, PERIOD.
Where else can you see the best players in SC2 playing each other, with commentary, in HQ, and watch the VODs over and over again?
Want to work on your splitting? Simple, go watch Foxer vs Kyrix on Zel Naga Caverns in Season 2 over and over again until you pick up how he does it. (Good luck)
Problem with your macro? Check out how players like Nada and MVP will actually que up 2-3 SCVs sometimes before they push or drop.
Idra seems to always know exactly how many banes and lings will bust a main. Freeze a VOD and count them, bitches!
Watch how players abuse the high ground, and where to best place that Spine Crawler to fight off that Thor on the Cliff, like only Idra and Fruitdealer can.
When I watch the GSL vods, I take note of the strategies used, what works, what didnt and why. I am building an Excel spreadsheet going all the way back to Season 2. (season 1 had poor balance)
Sure, there are YouTube VODs, but I prefer Tastosis, regardless of their bias and premature GG predictions. They are funny, knowlegeble, and often will throw in some insight that I would never have picked up on my own.
When you consider, that these GSL seasons are less than the cost of a decent pizza, what the hell are we even arguing about? If you cant afford the GSL, should you really be playing video games? Get a job. If you are a kid, cut some fucking grass. Shit, cut my grass, I'll buy you a season.
Buy it.
Bitches.
Worth the $? Hell yes.
Worth it to people who know little to nothing about ESports or SCII and you are trying to convert over, or people who watch 1-10 SCII matches a month at most? Hell No.
To me it's not about the hardcore fans, it's a fantastic deal to them, but the casuals are hurt by this move. The casuals make up the bulk of the audience.....
Screw Casuals.
Casual viewers are not what this game needs. Blizzard has sold 4M copies of this game. If 10% of those purchasers watch the GSL, then GOM will be fat dumb and happy.
They should appeal to the hardcore SC & SC2 players, not some herp-a-derp jerk who bought the game based on a review in PC World. That person does NOT help the community.
Anyone who has to be convinced to love this game, is NOT someone I want GOM to waste a minute on trying to convince them. If you dont love Starcraft, F-off and go play something else.
This is a hardcore game, for hardcore gamers. It is NOT for everyone, because it is too damn hard to get good at it. When you try to appeal to the masses, that usually means dumb'ing it down for them.
Love this game or leave it.
You are so off base here it's not funny. The casuals run every sport. This is true from Football to MMA. You need casuals. You need to grow, because right now Esports is pretty small compared to other traditional sports, we NEED the casuals.
it's probably worth it for anyone who likes SC2 even just a little, I mean it's what 10$ for several hours of entertainment over several weeks.... why would anybody complain about that is beyond me
On January 31 2011 10:48 PukinDog wrote: It is worth it, PERIOD.
Where else can you see the best players in SC2 playing each other, with commentary, in HQ, and watch the VODs over and over again?
Want to work on your splitting? Simple, go watch Foxer vs Kyrix on Zel Naga Caverns in Season 2 over and over again until you pick up how he does it. (Good luck)
Problem with your macro? Check out how players like Nada and MVP will actually que up 2-3 SCVs sometimes before they push or drop.
Idra seems to always know exactly how many banes and lings will bust a main. Freeze a VOD and count them, bitches!
Watch how players abuse the high ground, and where to best place that Spine Crawler to fight off that Thor on the Cliff, like only Idra and Fruitdealer can.
When I watch the GSL vods, I take note of the strategies used, what works, what didnt and why. I am building an Excel spreadsheet going all the way back to Season 2. (season 1 had poor balance)
Sure, there are YouTube VODs, but I prefer Tastosis, regardless of their bias and premature GG predictions. They are funny, knowlegeble, and often will throw in some insight that I would never have picked up on my own.
When you consider, that these GSL seasons are less than the cost of a decent pizza, what the hell are we even arguing about? If you cant afford the GSL, should you really be playing video games? Get a job. If you are a kid, cut some fucking grass. Shit, cut my grass, I'll buy you a season.
Buy it.
Bitches.
Worth the $? Hell yes.
Worth it to people who know little to nothing about ESports or SCII and you are trying to convert over, or people who watch 1-10 SCII matches a month at most? Hell No.
To me it's not about the hardcore fans, it's a fantastic deal to them, but the casuals are hurt by this move. The casuals make up the bulk of the audience.....
Screw Casuals.
Casual viewers are not what this game needs. Blizzard has sold 4M copies of this game. If 10% of those purchasers watch the GSL, then GOM will be fat dumb and happy.
They should appeal to the hardcore SC & SC2 players, not some herp-a-derp jerk who bought the game based on a review in PC World. That person does NOT help the community.
Anyone who has to be convinced to love this game, is NOT someone I want GOM to waste a minute on trying to convince them. If you dont love Starcraft, F-off and go play something else.
This is a hardcore game, for hardcore gamers. It is NOT for everyone, because it is too damn hard to get good at it. When you try to appeal to the masses, that usually means dumb'ing it down for them.
Love this game or leave it.
That is a TERRIBLE attitude. Wow! Us GSL viewers are only an extremely small percentage of the world. What we want if for SC2 to become commonplace. That would mean increasing it's viewerbase by thousands of times what it is now.
We are not some cult or anything like that. We are normal people who found this game one day through people on youtube. Everyone in the world is like us. Everyone in the world can be us. Who are you to deny them that?
Esports has unlimited potential. This potential far outweighs some petty forward paid cash.
On January 31 2011 11:17 PukinDog wrote:Screw Casuals.
Casual viewers are not what this game needs. Blizzard has sold 4M copies of this game. If 10% of those purchasers watch the GSL, then GOM will be fat dumb and happy.
They should appeal to the hardcore SC & SC2 players, not some herp-a-derp jerk who bought the game based on a review in PC World. That person does NOT help the community.
Anyone who has to be convinced to love this game, is NOT someone I want GOM to waste a minute on trying to convince them. If you dont love Starcraft, F-off and go play something else.
This is a hardcore game, for hardcore gamers. It is NOT for everyone, because it is too damn hard to get good at it. When you try to appeal to the masses, that usually means dumb'ing it down for them.
Love this game or leave it.
That's incredibly narrow minded and short sighted of you. Excluding the casuals is a certain death sentence on any sort of extended popularity. Just look at what happened to BW outside Korea. Only the hardcore have remained, and the scene is basically dead. Vanished. Now look at the BW scene in Korea still going strong - because it's pulling in the audience numbers needed to get put on TV and it's accepted in the mainstream.
Also, you're confusing SCII the game and SCII the spectator sport. There's no need at all to dumb anything down in the game because it's still awesome to watch in action.
On January 31 2011 10:48 PukinDog wrote: It is worth it, PERIOD.
Where else can you see the best players in SC2 playing each other, with commentary, in HQ, and watch the VODs over and over again?
Want to work on your splitting? Simple, go watch Foxer vs Kyrix on Zel Naga Caverns in Season 2 over and over again until you pick up how he does it. (Good luck)
Problem with your macro? Check out how players like Nada and MVP will actually que up 2-3 SCVs sometimes before they push or drop.
Idra seems to always know exactly how many banes and lings will bust a main. Freeze a VOD and count them, bitches!
Watch how players abuse the high ground, and where to best place that Spine Crawler to fight off that Thor on the Cliff, like only Idra and Fruitdealer can.
When I watch the GSL vods, I take note of the strategies used, what works, what didnt and why. I am building an Excel spreadsheet going all the way back to Season 2. (season 1 had poor balance)
Sure, there are YouTube VODs, but I prefer Tastosis, regardless of their bias and premature GG predictions. They are funny, knowlegeble, and often will throw in some insight that I would never have picked up on my own.
When you consider, that these GSL seasons are less than the cost of a decent pizza, what the hell are we even arguing about? If you cant afford the GSL, should you really be playing video games? Get a job. If you are a kid, cut some fucking grass. Shit, cut my grass, I'll buy you a season.
Buy it.
Bitches.
Worth the $? Hell yes.
Worth it to people who know little to nothing about ESports or SCII and you are trying to convert over, or people who watch 1-10 SCII matches a month at most? Hell No.
To me it's not about the hardcore fans, it's a fantastic deal to them, but the casuals are hurt by this move. The casuals make up the bulk of the audience.....
Screw Casuals.
Casual viewers are not what this game needs. Blizzard has sold 4M copies of this game. If 10% of those purchasers watch the GSL, then GOM will be fat dumb and happy.
They should appeal to the hardcore SC & SC2 players, not some herp-a-derp jerk who bought the game based on a review in PC World. That person does NOT help the community.
Anyone who has to be convinced to love this game, is NOT someone I want GOM to waste a minute on trying to convince them. If you dont love Starcraft, F-off and go play something else.
This is a hardcore game, for hardcore gamers. It is NOT for everyone, because it is too damn hard to get good at it. When you try to appeal to the masses, that usually means dumb'ing it down for them.
Love this game or leave it.
You are so off base here it's not funny. The casuals run every sport. This is true from Football to MMA. You need casuals. You need to grow, because right now Esports is pretty small compared to other traditional sports, we NEED the casuals.
Dude, you dont know what you are talking about.
Do you think NFL Football is run by Casuals? NBA Basketball?
In the NFL, most of the money comes from the TV contract, Sky-boxes and jersey sales, not from those who buy tickets for a game anymore. That is a fact. Ask any TV network executive if they would rather have the one or two games they get to broadcast to the masses, or the shitload of dough being raked in by DirecTV for the NFL package, that people pay hundreds for each season.
Casual viewers dont even run Woman's Basketball. If not for lesbians, that shit would be off the air tomorrow, and there is nothing CASUAL about Lesbians.
On January 31 2011 11:17 PukinDog wrote:Screw Casuals.
Casual viewers are not what this game needs. Blizzard has sold 4M copies of this game. If 10% of those purchasers watch the GSL, then GOM will be fat dumb and happy.
They should appeal to the hardcore SC & SC2 players, not some herp-a-derp jerk who bought the game based on a review in PC World. That person does NOT help the community.
Anyone who has to be convinced to love this game, is NOT someone I want GOM to waste a minute on trying to convince them. If you dont love Starcraft, F-off and go play something else.
This is a hardcore game, for hardcore gamers. It is NOT for everyone, because it is too damn hard to get good at it. When you try to appeal to the masses, that usually means dumb'ing it down for them.
Love this game or leave it.
That's incredibly narrow minded and short sighted of you.
It also happens to be true and correct. Ask GOM if they would love 400K subscriptions. They wont get them appealing to those who dont use hotkeys.
I missed it when it was 100% free like the first years and when SQ live stream didn't suck with a quality so low you can't even distinguish the units. I don't think it's worth paying for, Day9 & Husky are all freely available for everyone on youtube in HD and it gets hundreds of thousands of views in-comparison to GomTV's VOD's which only has like a fraction of that.
If they want exposure twitter is not the way to go, that's just another social networking fad that most on TL don't even use. (There was a poll awhile ago) I have to say the saving grace of GomTV right now is Tastosis, they're the best commentators I have had the joy of listening to in the history of E-sports and the world, I adore what they're doing but I'm skeptical to the companies that sponsor them.
On January 31 2011 10:48 PukinDog wrote: It is worth it, PERIOD.
Where else can you see the best players in SC2 playing each other, with commentary, in HQ, and watch the VODs over and over again?
Want to work on your splitting? Simple, go watch Foxer vs Kyrix on Zel Naga Caverns in Season 2 over and over again until you pick up how he does it. (Good luck)
Problem with your macro? Check out how players like Nada and MVP will actually que up 2-3 SCVs sometimes before they push or drop.
Idra seems to always know exactly how many banes and lings will bust a main. Freeze a VOD and count them, bitches!
Watch how players abuse the high ground, and where to best place that Spine Crawler to fight off that Thor on the Cliff, like only Idra and Fruitdealer can.
When I watch the GSL vods, I take note of the strategies used, what works, what didnt and why. I am building an Excel spreadsheet going all the way back to Season 2. (season 1 had poor balance)
Sure, there are YouTube VODs, but I prefer Tastosis, regardless of their bias and premature GG predictions. They are funny, knowlegeble, and often will throw in some insight that I would never have picked up on my own.
When you consider, that these GSL seasons are less than the cost of a decent pizza, what the hell are we even arguing about? If you cant afford the GSL, should you really be playing video games? Get a job. If you are a kid, cut some fucking grass. Shit, cut my grass, I'll buy you a season.
Buy it.
Bitches.
Worth the $? Hell yes.
Worth it to people who know little to nothing about ESports or SCII and you are trying to convert over, or people who watch 1-10 SCII matches a month at most? Hell No.
To me it's not about the hardcore fans, it's a fantastic deal to them, but the casuals are hurt by this move. The casuals make up the bulk of the audience.....
Screw Casuals.
Casual viewers are not what this game needs. Blizzard has sold 4M copies of this game. If 10% of those purchasers watch the GSL, then GOM will be fat dumb and happy.
They should appeal to the hardcore SC & SC2 players, not some herp-a-derp jerk who bought the game based on a review in PC World. That person does NOT help the community.
Anyone who has to be convinced to love this game, is NOT someone I want GOM to waste a minute on trying to convince them. If you dont love Starcraft, F-off and go play something else.
This is a hardcore game, for hardcore gamers. It is NOT for everyone, because it is too damn hard to get good at it. When you try to appeal to the masses, that usually means dumb'ing it down for them.
Love this game or leave it.
You are so off base here it's not funny. The casuals run every sport. This is true from Football to MMA. You need casuals. You need to grow, because right now Esports is pretty small compared to other traditional sports, we NEED the casuals.
Dude, you dont know what you are talking about.
Do you think NFL Football is run by Casuals? NBA Basketball?
In the NFL, most of the money comes from the TV contract, Sky-boxes and jersey sales, not from those who buy tickets for a game anymore. That is a fact. Ask any TV network executive if they would rather have the one or two games they get to broadcast to the masses, or the shitload of dough being raked in by DirecTV for the NFL package, that people pay hundreds for each season.
Casual viewers dont even run Woman's Basketball. If not for lesbians, that shit would be off the air tomorrow, and there is nothing CASUAL about Lesbians.
There would be no hardcore viewers if casuals didn't teach them about said sport. Period. If sports had only hardcores, it wouldn't exist.
On January 31 2011 10:48 PukinDog wrote: It is worth it, PERIOD.
Where else can you see the best players in SC2 playing each other, with commentary, in HQ, and watch the VODs over and over again?
Want to work on your splitting? Simple, go watch Foxer vs Kyrix on Zel Naga Caverns in Season 2 over and over again until you pick up how he does it. (Good luck)
Problem with your macro? Check out how players like Nada and MVP will actually que up 2-3 SCVs sometimes before they push or drop.
Idra seems to always know exactly how many banes and lings will bust a main. Freeze a VOD and count them, bitches!
Watch how players abuse the high ground, and where to best place that Spine Crawler to fight off that Thor on the Cliff, like only Idra and Fruitdealer can.
When I watch the GSL vods, I take note of the strategies used, what works, what didnt and why. I am building an Excel spreadsheet going all the way back to Season 2. (season 1 had poor balance)
Sure, there are YouTube VODs, but I prefer Tastosis, regardless of their bias and premature GG predictions. They are funny, knowlegeble, and often will throw in some insight that I would never have picked up on my own.
When you consider, that these GSL seasons are less than the cost of a decent pizza, what the hell are we even arguing about? If you cant afford the GSL, should you really be playing video games? Get a job. If you are a kid, cut some fucking grass. Shit, cut my grass, I'll buy you a season.
Buy it.
Bitches.
Worth the $? Hell yes.
Worth it to people who know little to nothing about ESports or SCII and you are trying to convert over, or people who watch 1-10 SCII matches a month at most? Hell No.
To me it's not about the hardcore fans, it's a fantastic deal to them, but the casuals are hurt by this move. The casuals make up the bulk of the audience.....
Screw Casuals.
Casual viewers are not what this game needs. Blizzard has sold 4M copies of this game. If 10% of those purchasers watch the GSL, then GOM will be fat dumb and happy.
They should appeal to the hardcore SC & SC2 players, not some herp-a-derp jerk who bought the game based on a review in PC World. That person does NOT help the community.
Anyone who has to be convinced to love this game, is NOT someone I want GOM to waste a minute on trying to convince them. If you dont love Starcraft, F-off and go play something else.
This is a hardcore game, for hardcore gamers. It is NOT for everyone, because it is too damn hard to get good at it. When you try to appeal to the masses, that usually means dumb'ing it down for them.
Love this game or leave it.
You are so off base here it's not funny. The casuals run every sport. This is true from Football to MMA. You need casuals. You need to grow, because right now Esports is pretty small compared to other traditional sports, we NEED the casuals.
Dude, you dont know what you are talking about.
Do you think NFL Football is run by Casuals? NBA Basketball?
In the NFL, most of the money comes from the TV contract, Sky-boxes and jersey sales, not from those who buy tickets for a game anymore. That is a fact. Ask any TV network executive if they would rather have the one or two games they get to broadcast to the masses, or the shitload of dough being raked in by DirecTV for the NFL package, that people pay hundreds for each season.
Casual viewers dont even run Woman's Basketball. If not for lesbians, that shit would be off the air tomorrow, and there is nothing CASUAL about Lesbians.
There would be no hardcore viewers if casuals didn't teach them about said sport. Period. If sports had only hardcores, it wouldn't exist.
Soccer and Hockey prove you are wrong. Especially Soccer, where it is hardcore and nothing else. Those who keep trying to push it on Americans (casual viewers) keep failing miserably.
Hell, I remember back when Hockey considered using a larger puck, or one that glowed in the dark, etc. They finally figured out that there are those of us who love Hockey, and those that dont, and that is that.
I missed it when it was 100% free like the first years and when SQ live stream didn't suck with a quality so low you can't even distinguish the units. I don't think it's worth paying for, Day9 & Husky are all freely available for everyone on youtube in HD and it gets hundreds of thousands of views in-comparison to GomTV's VOD's which only has like a fraction of that.
Most viewed VoDs on GomTV.net: Views: 484,621 Views: 365,879 Views: 341,275 Views: 294,451 Views: 255,091
Pretty good numbers, imo.
But sure, it could (and should!) always be bigger. I think they're doing a great job appealing to international audiences as is. Free livestream with English casters, English interviews after every match, Premium options for VoDs and HQ quality live streams for those who want to invest.
On January 31 2011 11:42 Xafnia wrote: I pretty much don't care or follow GSL because of the lack of vods. I've watched maybe 1-2 series per GSL since season 2.
They are killing the interest in their own product, it's pretty silly.
esports will never survive if it is not financially solvent, and than means paying customers.
You pay $10 and you get what, 50 hours worth of VODs? Yeah, horrible deal!
Bobster, that's the MOST viewed, if you check the recent ones and compare the numbers to Husky's videos then there's a big gap and I think it takes all the videos in one series into consideration so the views on each adds up into the total.
I don't get it.. even A poutine is over $5... A chicken breast sandwich from Subway has similar price as a GSL whole season ticket. come on, It costs only $10. You can buy the ticket if you decide not to buy a sandwich.
you prefer eating a sandwich rather watching a whole GSL season?
On January 31 2011 10:48 PukinDog wrote: It is worth it, PERIOD.
Where else can you see the best players in SC2 playing each other, with commentary, in HQ, and watch the VODs over and over again?
Want to work on your splitting? Simple, go watch Foxer vs Kyrix on Zel Naga Caverns in Season 2 over and over again until you pick up how he does it. (Good luck)
Problem with your macro? Check out how players like Nada and MVP will actually que up 2-3 SCVs sometimes before they push or drop.
Idra seems to always know exactly how many banes and lings will bust a main. Freeze a VOD and count them, bitches!
Watch how players abuse the high ground, and where to best place that Spine Crawler to fight off that Thor on the Cliff, like only Idra and Fruitdealer can.
When I watch the GSL vods, I take note of the strategies used, what works, what didnt and why. I am building an Excel spreadsheet going all the way back to Season 2. (season 1 had poor balance)
Sure, there are YouTube VODs, but I prefer Tastosis, regardless of their bias and premature GG predictions. They are funny, knowlegeble, and often will throw in some insight that I would never have picked up on my own.
When you consider, that these GSL seasons are less than the cost of a decent pizza, what the hell are we even arguing about? If you cant afford the GSL, should you really be playing video games? Get a job. If you are a kid, cut some fucking grass. Shit, cut my grass, I'll buy you a season.
Buy it.
Bitches.
Worth the $? Hell yes.
Worth it to people who know little to nothing about ESports or SCII and you are trying to convert over, or people who watch 1-10 SCII matches a month at most? Hell No.
To me it's not about the hardcore fans, it's a fantastic deal to them, but the casuals are hurt by this move. The casuals make up the bulk of the audience.....
Screw Casuals.
Casual viewers are not what this game needs. Blizzard has sold 4M copies of this game. If 10% of those purchasers watch the GSL, then GOM will be fat dumb and happy.
They should appeal to the hardcore SC & SC2 players, not some herp-a-derp jerk who bought the game based on a review in PC World. That person does NOT help the community.
Anyone who has to be convinced to love this game, is NOT someone I want GOM to waste a minute on trying to convince them. If you dont love Starcraft, F-off and go play something else.
This is a hardcore game, for hardcore gamers. It is NOT for everyone, because it is too damn hard to get good at it. When you try to appeal to the masses, that usually means dumb'ing it down for them.
Love this game or leave it.
You are so off base here it's not funny. The casuals run every sport. This is true from Football to MMA. You need casuals. You need to grow, because right now Esports is pretty small compared to other traditional sports, we NEED the casuals.
Dude, you dont know what you are talking about.
Do you think NFL Football is run by Casuals? NBA Basketball?
In the NFL, most of the money comes from the TV contract, Sky-boxes and jersey sales, not from those who buy tickets for a game anymore. That is a fact. Ask any TV network executive if they would rather have the one or two games they get to broadcast to the masses, or the shitload of dough being raked in by DirecTV for the NFL package, that people pay hundreds for each season.
Casual viewers dont even run Woman's Basketball. If not for lesbians, that shit would be off the air tomorrow, and there is nothing CASUAL about Lesbians.
There would be no hardcore viewers if casuals didn't teach them about said sport. Period. If sports had only hardcores, it wouldn't exist.
Soccer and Hockey prove you are wrong. Especially Soccer, where it is hardcore and nothing else. Those who keep trying to push it on Americans (casual viewers) keep failing miserably.
Hell, I remember back when Hockey considered using a larger puck, or one that glowed in the dark, etc. They finally figured out that there are those of us who love Hockey, and those that dont, and that is that.
Those are completely made up facts. Everyone knows about hockey and soccer and thus are casuals. How would people know about hockey and soccer without everyone telling them about it?
The hockey/soccer fan base would have started out with like 100 hardcore fans and nobody would watch now if that small group of people didn't grow. Everyone starts a casual.
On January 31 2011 11:46 ChaseR wrote: Bobster, that's the MOST viewed, if you check the recent ones and compare the numbers to Husky's videos then there's a big gap and I think it takes all the videos in one series into consideration so the views on each adds up into the total.
I said it's the most viewed videos in my post. And I said that I consider these pretty good numbers, not that they're equal to Husky's (his YT viewership is pretty damn sick).
I've stated my views on live TV and the availability of online streams several times before in this thread, so I won't repeat myself again, but I think Gom is doing a pretty good job so far.
On January 31 2011 11:39 PukinDog wrote:Soccer and Hockey prove you are wrong. Especially Soccer, where it is hardcore and nothing else. Those who keep trying to push it on Americans (casual viewers) keep failing miserably.
wow. Well, I don't even know what to tell you here, since that is roughly as far as you can get from my (and probably most other's) opinion on the matter.
Football is huge because everyone knows about it and is watching/following it, not only the hardcore fans. It is literally the exact opposite of what you said.
They don't even have 1920x1080 VODS on GomTV.net ( and they aren't in the best quality... the bitrate is fairly low for what the details in the game can actually output )
macro blocks, color depth, pixelation ( TL has this in red underlines... ) all very noticeable... Why pay for bad quality on the vods when they can clearly do better...other than a Korean dub
10 bucks for this month wasn't bad. plus you have access for life. its much like paying for a dvd of a show. i don't mind right now. i'm happy as long as they don't raise the prices.
On January 31 2011 11:56 Figgy20000 wrote: It's $10 for a whole season and you are supporting Esports. It's more than worth it to support gomtv for hosting such an amazing event.
Yeah seriously its like one hour of labor for a shit ton of content. Hopefuly gom will continue to price their season because they deserve it.
Compared to MLG i would pay double what Gom is charging now for a season ticket.
On January 31 2011 11:42 Xafnia wrote: I pretty much don't care or follow GSL because of the lack of vods. I've watched maybe 1-2 series per GSL since season 2.
They are killing the interest in their own product, it's pretty silly.
esports will never survive if it is not financially solvent, and than means paying customers.
You pay $10 and you get what, 50 hours worth of VODs? Yeah, horrible deal!
yeah .. like how BW is over 10 year right?
oh wait ..
most people doesn't get the the impact of casuals/non-gamers watching the game ..
do you think that 3/4 year old bisu fan girl plays? No ..
do you think those stalker/fan girls play hardcore BW or do they even play at all? No ..
I would watch the VOD's on gomtv if they were free. Instead I watch them on other sites for free. That means gomtv is losing my advertising revenue, and their revenue is going to another site just because they decide to upload some videos.
This is the internet people.... the idea that you can regulate and keep any data off the internet is rediculous. Nearly every other site relies on viewership and advertising revenue to make their profit. Gomtv needs to get with the program.
On January 31 2011 12:10 jdseemoreglass wrote: I would watch the VOD's on gomtv if they were free. Instead I watch them on other sites for free. That means gomtv is losing my advertising revenue, and their revenue is going to another site just because they decide to upload some videos.
This is the internet people.... the idea that you can regulate and keep any data off the internet is rediculous. Nearly every other site relies on viewership and advertising revenue to make their profit. Gomtv needs to get with the program.
Because you can access it somewhere else makes it okay to do so and cheat GOMtv out of money they need to continue producing the content that you enjoy? You, sir, have a terrible mindset.
On January 31 2011 12:10 jdseemoreglass wrote: I would watch the VOD's on gomtv if they were free. Instead I watch them on other sites for free. That means gomtv is losing my advertising revenue, and their revenue is going to another site just because they decide to upload some videos.
This is the internet people.... the idea that you can regulate and keep any data off the internet is rediculous. Nearly every other site relies on viewership and advertising revenue to make their profit. Gomtv needs to get with the program.
Your logic makes no sense. thats like saying developers should give games for free since they are very pirated with ease anyway. I do however agree with a youtube channel or replays released like a month after the actual season.
On January 31 2011 12:10 jdseemoreglass wrote: I would watch the VOD's on gomtv if they were free. Instead I watch them on other sites for free. That means gomtv is losing my advertising revenue, and their revenue is going to another site just because they decide to upload some videos.
This is the internet people.... the idea that you can regulate and keep any data off the internet is rediculous. Nearly every other site relies on viewership and advertising revenue to make their profit. Gomtv needs to get with the program.
Because you can access it somewhere else makes it okay to do so and cheat GOMtv out of money they need to continue producing the content that you enjoy? You, sir, have a terrible mindset.
You can't claim that I am cheating them of money simply because they are choosing to charge other people for it. Those people can pay if they like... I would rather watch for free, and I won't feel anymore guilty than when I watch free videos on youtube or anywhere else.
On January 31 2011 12:10 jdseemoreglass wrote: I would watch the VOD's on gomtv if they were free. Instead I watch them on other sites for free. That means gomtv is losing my advertising revenue, and their revenue is going to another site just because they decide to upload some videos.
This is the internet people.... the idea that you can regulate and keep any data off the internet is rediculous. Nearly every other site relies on viewership and advertising revenue to make their profit. Gomtv needs to get with the program.
Thanks for stating the obvious for the people who are "Esports saviors" contributing their $10 every month. The fact of the matter is that as long as they won't give it away for free, and as long as people don't want to spend money on the internet, there will be places to get it for free illegitimately. If they just gave it away for free on their site, they'd get all the views and accurate numbers of how many people are watching.
Of course, gomtv is only going to lose money forcibly shutting down torrent site after torrent site to no end. It's a lose-lose situation, and it sucks, but that's how the internet goes. They really do need to get with the program.
The great part is that they seem to have 2011 all squared away financially already, so my choice to not buy a ticket won't hurt them at all (yet).
On January 31 2011 11:42 Xafnia wrote: I pretty much don't care or follow GSL because of the lack of vods. I've watched maybe 1-2 series per GSL since season 2.
They are killing the interest in their own product, it's pretty silly.
esports will never survive if it is not financially solvent, and than means paying customers.
You pay $10 and you get what, 50 hours worth of VODs? Yeah, horrible deal!
yeah .. like how BW is over 10 year right?
oh wait ..
most people doesn't get the the impact of casuals/non-gamers watching the game ..
do you think that 3/4 year old bisu fan girl plays? No ..
do you think those stalker/fan girls play hardcore BW or do they even play at all? No ..
also, 10$ is worth more in other countries.
BW has advertising revenue in its main country. GOM can't offer the same level of advertising because it's online and streamed towards a wide foreign audience. Plugging Sony Ericson and Pepsi isn't enough to carry those bills.
$10 is also worth a lot less in other countries.
Saying the pay per view model doesn't work is ridiculous. MMA seems to be doing fine with it, and until the fights got boring, boxing was as well. SC2 is never going to be like baseball or football, and it's doubtful they'll ever reach those sort of profit margins on advertising revenue alone. It's a niche activity, so it's revenue model works like one. I'm perfectly fine with that and I think GOM does a fantastic job. Especially when VODs are uploaded within hours of completion.
A lot of people in this thread are extremely ignorant of bandwidth costs. There's a reason all the video streaming sites are huge capital ventures and Youtube was in the red until a year ago, and they've got a scale advantage. Thinking that GOM could cover those costs through website ad dollars is absurd.
The first set of every match is free. If someone unacquainted with SC2 wants to get into it, they easily can. Of course they could get more views by making them free, but would they make more money? Since none of you are business managers and not aware of the factors involved, I'm going to put my trust in GOM's MBAs over your internet BSes.
On January 31 2011 12:10 jdseemoreglass wrote: I would watch the VOD's on gomtv if they were free. Instead I watch them on other sites for free. That means gomtv is losing my advertising revenue, and their revenue is going to another site just because they decide to upload some videos.
This is the internet people.... the idea that you can regulate and keep any data off the internet is rediculous. Nearly every other site relies on viewership and advertising revenue to make their profit. Gomtv needs to get with the program.
Because you can access it somewhere else makes it okay to do so and cheat GOMtv out of money they need to continue producing the content that you enjoy? You, sir, have a terrible mindset.
You can't claim that I am cheating them of money simply because they are choosing to charge other people for it. Those people can pay if they like... I would rather watch for free, and I won't feel anymore guilty than when I watch free videos on youtube or anywhere else.
No, I can because you are.
They produce this content which they own, other people steal this and by proxy you steal it as well. "It's okay because someone else stole it first" does not make it so.
ETA: You'll note that even someone speaking in your defense used the term "illegitimate." I don't understand how you can not understand that what you're doing is ripping off a business.
On January 31 2011 11:48 namedplayer wrote: I don't get it.. even A poutine is over $5... A chicken breast sandwich from Subway has similar price as a GSL whole season ticket. come on, It costs only $10. You can buy the ticket if you decide not to buy a sandwich.
you prefer eating a sandwich rather watching a whole GSL season?
People have been spoiled by free restreams and illegally recorded BW streams being uploaded to YouTube. Once someone has been getting something for free its very hard to get them to then go and pay for it, no matter how cheap it is.
Another pointless post. If you love star craft and want it to grow put money into it if not than don't. This is not BW this is a new game completely there for it has it's own scene and needs to grow the same. Think about it this way. Gom can go ahead and say fuck foreigner's we don't care if they watch or not and just have a decent quality Norean stream. but hey ya know what? They actually care so they go and say. Hey guys you can watch for free and we're going to put the first match of every series up as a vod for free. We're doing a completely different stream for international viewers so if you want to help us get set up and make it better here's a way to help.
But this the internet and you can't make everyone happy. Plus just saying if you care enough about gsl to want to sit your friends down and actually watch it and not just one match you would have bought the monthly tickets already.
On January 31 2011 11:42 Xafnia wrote: I pretty much don't care or follow GSL because of the lack of vods. I've watched maybe 1-2 series per GSL since season 2.
They are killing the interest in their own product, it's pretty silly.
esports will never survive if it is not financially solvent, and than means paying customers.
You pay $10 and you get what, 50 hours worth of VODs? Yeah, horrible deal!
yeah .. like how BW is over 10 year right?
oh wait ..
most people doesn't get the the impact of casuals/non-gamers watching the game ..
do you think that 3/4 year old bisu fan girl plays? No ..
do you think those stalker/fan girls play hardcore BW or do they even play at all? No ..
also, 10$ is worth more in other countries.
BW makes it money from advertisers on Korean television, and all the sponsorship money. Online illegal stream viewing is irrelevant to the success of BW; its a drop in the bucket
On January 31 2011 12:10 jdseemoreglass wrote: I would watch the VOD's on gomtv if they were free. Instead I watch them on other sites for free. That means gomtv is losing my advertising revenue, and their revenue is going to another site just because they decide to upload some videos.
This is the internet people.... the idea that you can regulate and keep any data off the internet is rediculous. Nearly every other site relies on viewership and advertising revenue to make their profit. Gomtv needs to get with the program.
Because you can access it somewhere else makes it okay to do so and cheat GOMtv out of money they need to continue producing the content that you enjoy? You, sir, have a terrible mindset.
You can't claim that I am cheating them of money simply because they are choosing to charge other people for it. Those people can pay if they like... I would rather watch for free, and I won't feel anymore guilty than when I watch free videos on youtube or anywhere else.
No, I can because you are.
They produce this content which they own, other people steal this and by proxy you steal it as well. "It's okay because someone else stole it first" does not make it so.
This post is the property of jdseemoreglass. To view the content contained in this post, please send me $5. Viewing this content without authorized permission is illegal.
lol but seriously, if the content you want is just a click away, what do you expect?
Paying for something from someone, when someone else is offering it for free: != morality = stupidity
Simple supply and demand. You can try to enforce artificial scarcity all you want, but data, by its very nature, is NOT scarce. Anything that can be reproduced an infinite number of times with the click of a button will NEVER be a scarce good!
On January 31 2011 12:10 jdseemoreglass wrote: I would watch the VOD's on gomtv if they were free. Instead I watch them on other sites for free. That means gomtv is losing my advertising revenue, and their revenue is going to another site just because they decide to upload some videos.
This is the internet people.... the idea that you can regulate and keep any data off the internet is rediculous. Nearly every other site relies on viewership and advertising revenue to make their profit. Gomtv needs to get with the program.
Because you can access it somewhere else makes it okay to do so and cheat GOMtv out of money they need to continue producing the content that you enjoy? You, sir, have a terrible mindset.
You can't claim that I am cheating them of money simply because they are choosing to charge other people for it. Those people can pay if they like... I would rather watch for free, and I won't feel anymore guilty than when I watch free videos on youtube or anywhere else.
No, I can because you are.
They produce this content which they own, other people steal this and by proxy you steal it as well. "It's okay because someone else stole it first" does not make it so.
This post is the property of jdseemoreglass. To view the content contained in this post, please send me $5. Viewing this content without authorized permission is illegal.
lol but seriously, if the content you want is just a click away, what do you expect?
Paying for something from someone, when someone else is offering it for free: != morality = stupidity
Simple supply and demand. You can try to enforce artificial scarcity all you want, but data, by its very nature, is NOT scarce. Anything that can be reproduced an infinite number of times with the click of a button will NEVER be a scarce good!
plz explain me how this is different from pirating games. if you want something and dont want to pay for it you dont want it enough and dont deserve it in the first place. i love excuses ppl give for doing stuff like that, it makes you look worse then you are for actually doing it.
On January 31 2011 12:10 jdseemoreglass wrote: I would watch the VOD's on gomtv if they were free. Instead I watch them on other sites for free. That means gomtv is losing my advertising revenue, and their revenue is going to another site just because they decide to upload some videos.
This is the internet people.... the idea that you can regulate and keep any data off the internet is rediculous. Nearly every other site relies on viewership and advertising revenue to make their profit. Gomtv needs to get with the program.
Because you can access it somewhere else makes it okay to do so and cheat GOMtv out of money they need to continue producing the content that you enjoy? You, sir, have a terrible mindset.
You can't claim that I am cheating them of money simply because they are choosing to charge other people for it. Those people can pay if they like... I would rather watch for free, and I won't feel anymore guilty than when I watch free videos on youtube or anywhere else.
No, I can because you are.
They produce this content which they own, other people steal this and by proxy you steal it as well. "It's okay because someone else stole it first" does not make it so.
This post is the property of jdseemoreglass. To view the content contained in this post, please send me $5. Viewing this content without authorized permission is illegal.
lol but seriously, if the content you want is just a click away, what do you expect?
Paying for something from someone, when someone else is offering it for free: != morality = stupidity
Simple supply and demand. You can try to enforce artificial scarcity all you want, but data, by its very nature, is NOT scarce. Anything that can be reproduced an infinite number of times with the click of a button will NEVER be a scarce good!
plz explain me how this is different from pirating games. if you want something and dont want to pay for it you dont want it enough and dont deserve it in the first place. i love excuses ppl give for doing stuff like that, it makes you look worse then you are for actually doing it.
I have a morality and a view of the world that not everyone will agree with. I don't believe in victimless crimes. In order for me to feel that something is "wrong," or "immoral," or "bad" it has to actual harm someone in some way. Behavior which cause no harm to anyone cannot be considered immoral according to my libertarian view of the world. Because gomtv is harmed in absolutely no shape, manner, or form, then I cannot feel guilty for watching videos. You cannot claim they are losing the money that I would have voluntarily paid, because I would NOT voluntarily pay. I would rather not watch at all if paying was the only option. Gomtv isn't affected or even aware of my actions in any way, so I don't consider it theft.
But I know it is popular in modern society to desire control over people even where their actions cause no harm to anyone in any way.
On January 31 2011 11:41 DeltruS wrote: To Timbo, using youtube would eliminate bandwidth costs, increase resolution, provide ad revenue and increase viewer base.
The ad revenue through youtube is simply not enough to sustain something as big as the GSL. Sure for someone like Husky who is just one man sat in front of a webcam it can give a nice income. The GSL has to support a team of staff, the studio and equipment required to put on a live show, un-aired qualifier events, a foriegner house and a $100,000 prize pool each month. Obviously ad revenue from youtube is going to do very little to contribute to all these costs. With some proper thought it doesn't take long to come to the conclusion that youtube is not a viable option for GOM despite the fact that it might attract more viewers.
Even if you're a newcomer, if you've watched HD or Husky or Day[9] on youtube and you're interested in watching more, shelling out 10 dollars is not that much. I'd recommend it to anyone and everyone in the Starcraft community. Think about it, 10 dollars is basically free. It's quite easy to get 10 dollars.
On January 31 2011 12:10 jdseemoreglass wrote: I would watch the VOD's on gomtv if they were free. Instead I watch them on other sites for free. That means gomtv is losing my advertising revenue, and their revenue is going to another site just because they decide to upload some videos.
This is the internet people.... the idea that you can regulate and keep any data off the internet is rediculous. Nearly every other site relies on viewership and advertising revenue to make their profit. Gomtv needs to get with the program.
Because you can access it somewhere else makes it okay to do so and cheat GOMtv out of money they need to continue producing the content that you enjoy? You, sir, have a terrible mindset.
You can't claim that I am cheating them of money simply because they are choosing to charge other people for it. Those people can pay if they like... I would rather watch for free, and I won't feel anymore guilty than when I watch free videos on youtube or anywhere else.
No, I can because you are.
They produce this content which they own, other people steal this and by proxy you steal it as well. "It's okay because someone else stole it first" does not make it so.
This post is the property of jdseemoreglass. To view the content contained in this post, please send me $5. Viewing this content without authorized permission is illegal.
lol but seriously, if the content you want is just a click away, what do you expect?
Paying for something from someone, when someone else is offering it for free: != morality = stupidity
Simple supply and demand. You can try to enforce artificial scarcity all you want, but data, by its very nature, is NOT scarce. Anything that can be reproduced an infinite number of times with the click of a button will NEVER be a scarce good!
plz explain me how this is different from pirating games. if you want something and dont want to pay for it you dont want it enough and dont deserve it in the first place. i love excuses ppl give for doing stuff like that, it makes you look worse then you are for actually doing it.
I have a morality and a view of the world that not everyone will agree with. I don't believe in victimless crimes. In order for me to feel that something is "wrong," or "immoral," or "bad" it has to actual harm someone in some way. Behavior which cause no harm to anyone cannot be considered immoral according to my libertarian view of the world. Because gomtv is harmed in absolutely no shape, manner, or form, then I cannot feel guilty for watching videos. You cannot claim they are losing the money that I would have voluntarily paid, because I would NOT voluntarily pay. I would rather not watch at all if paying was the only option. Gomtv isn't affected or even aware of my actions in any way, so I don't consider it theft.
But I know it is popular in modern society to desire control over people even where their actions cause no harm to anyone in any way.
So you're a libertarian who doesn't believe GOM should be paid for their product. Right...
On January 31 2011 06:30 mprs wrote: I think people can still watch SQ live for free, which isn't too bad...
VODs would probably be more pertinent as Live shows are in the night time.
For Americans. Some random "Team Liquid", for example, happens to be mostly non-American.
Last season was good, and its bound to get better with the weaker players being weeded out every season. Sucks for Leenock, but i wasn't impressed with his play anywhere near as much as in that legendary Clide battle. There's still a ton of horrible matches, especially in code a, but its worth it just o have the 1/5 quality match. Go get that premium if you want VODs.
On January 31 2011 12:10 jdseemoreglass wrote: I would watch the VOD's on gomtv if they were free. Instead I watch them on other sites for free. That means gomtv is losing my advertising revenue, and their revenue is going to another site just because they decide to upload some videos.
This is the internet people.... the idea that you can regulate and keep any data off the internet is rediculous. Nearly every other site relies on viewership and advertising revenue to make their profit. Gomtv needs to get with the program.
Because you can access it somewhere else makes it okay to do so and cheat GOMtv out of money they need to continue producing the content that you enjoy? You, sir, have a terrible mindset.
You can't claim that I am cheating them of money simply because they are choosing to charge other people for it. Those people can pay if they like... I would rather watch for free, and I won't feel anymore guilty than when I watch free videos on youtube or anywhere else.
No, I can because you are.
They produce this content which they own, other people steal this and by proxy you steal it as well. "It's okay because someone else stole it first" does not make it so.
This post is the property of jdseemoreglass. To view the content contained in this post, please send me $5. Viewing this content without authorized permission is illegal.
lol but seriously, if the content you want is just a click away, what do you expect?
Paying for something from someone, when someone else is offering it for free: != morality = stupidity
Simple supply and demand. You can try to enforce artificial scarcity all you want, but data, by its very nature, is NOT scarce. Anything that can be reproduced an infinite number of times with the click of a button will NEVER be a scarce good!
plz explain me how this is different from pirating games. if you want something and dont want to pay for it you dont want it enough and dont deserve it in the first place. i love excuses ppl give for doing stuff like that, it makes you look worse then you are for actually doing it.
I have a morality and a view of the world that not everyone will agree with. I don't believe in victimless crimes. In order for me to feel that something is "wrong," or "immoral," or "bad" it has to actual harm someone in some way. Behavior which cause no harm to anyone cannot be considered immoral according to my libertarian view of the world. Because gomtv is harmed in absolutely no shape, manner, or form, then I cannot feel guilty for watching videos. You cannot claim they are losing the money that I would have voluntarily paid, because I would NOT voluntarily pay. I would rather not watch at all if paying was the only option. Gomtv isn't affected or even aware of my actions in any way, so I don't consider it theft.
But I know it is popular in modern society to desire control over people even where their actions cause no harm to anyone in any way.
$10, especially at the current exchange rate, is probably an insignificant amount for most people, relative to the entertainment provided by 1080p vods and a slightly less gimp live stream :o PS. dont tell gom, I wouldnt pay a cent moar :O
On January 31 2011 12:10 jdseemoreglass wrote: I would watch the VOD's on gomtv if they were free. Instead I watch them on other sites for free. That means gomtv is losing my advertising revenue, and their revenue is going to another site just because they decide to upload some videos.
This is the internet people.... the idea that you can regulate and keep any data off the internet is rediculous. Nearly every other site relies on viewership and advertising revenue to make their profit. Gomtv needs to get with the program.
Because you can access it somewhere else makes it okay to do so and cheat GOMtv out of money they need to continue producing the content that you enjoy? You, sir, have a terrible mindset.
You can't claim that I am cheating them of money simply because they are choosing to charge other people for it. Those people can pay if they like... I would rather watch for free, and I won't feel anymore guilty than when I watch free videos on youtube or anywhere else.
No, I can because you are.
They produce this content which they own, other people steal this and by proxy you steal it as well. "It's okay because someone else stole it first" does not make it so.
This post is the property of jdseemoreglass. To view the content contained in this post, please send me $5. Viewing this content without authorized permission is illegal.
lol but seriously, if the content you want is just a click away, what do you expect?
Paying for something from someone, when someone else is offering it for free: != morality = stupidity
Simple supply and demand. You can try to enforce artificial scarcity all you want, but data, by its very nature, is NOT scarce. Anything that can be reproduced an infinite number of times with the click of a button will NEVER be a scarce good!
plz explain me how this is different from pirating games. if you want something and dont want to pay for it you dont want it enough and dont deserve it in the first place. i love excuses ppl give for doing stuff like that, it makes you look worse then you are for actually doing it.
I have a morality and a view of the world that not everyone will agree with. I don't believe in victimless crimes. In order for me to feel that something is "wrong," or "immoral," or "bad" it has to actual harm someone in some way. Behavior which cause no harm to anyone cannot be considered immoral according to my libertarian view of the world. Because gomtv is harmed in absolutely no shape, manner, or form, then I cannot feel guilty for watching videos. You cannot claim they are losing the money that I would have voluntarily paid, because I would NOT voluntarily pay. I would rather not watch at all if paying was the only option. Gomtv isn't affected or even aware of my actions in any way, so I don't consider it theft.
But I know it is popular in modern society to desire control over people even where their actions cause no harm to anyone in any way.
So you're a libertarian who doesn't believe GOM should be paid for their product. Right...
The value of a product is dependent on its scarcity. Something that has no scarcity tends to have no value.
Gomtv only gets away with charging because enough people are either too ignorant to recognize the lack of scarcity, or have separate desires than simply viewing the "unscarce product," such as "supporting the community" or "not being a thief."
On January 31 2011 12:10 jdseemoreglass wrote: I would watch the VOD's on gomtv if they were free. Instead I watch them on other sites for free. That means gomtv is losing my advertising revenue, and their revenue is going to another site just because they decide to upload some videos.
This is the internet people.... the idea that you can regulate and keep any data off the internet is rediculous. Nearly every other site relies on viewership and advertising revenue to make their profit. Gomtv needs to get with the program.
Because you can access it somewhere else makes it okay to do so and cheat GOMtv out of money they need to continue producing the content that you enjoy? You, sir, have a terrible mindset.
You can't claim that I am cheating them of money simply because they are choosing to charge other people for it. Those people can pay if they like... I would rather watch for free, and I won't feel anymore guilty than when I watch free videos on youtube or anywhere else.
No, I can because you are.
They produce this content which they own, other people steal this and by proxy you steal it as well. "It's okay because someone else stole it first" does not make it so.
This post is the property of jdseemoreglass. To view the content contained in this post, please send me $5. Viewing this content without authorized permission is illegal.
lol but seriously, if the content you want is just a click away, what do you expect?
Paying for something from someone, when someone else is offering it for free: != morality = stupidity
Simple supply and demand. You can try to enforce artificial scarcity all you want, but data, by its very nature, is NOT scarce. Anything that can be reproduced an infinite number of times with the click of a button will NEVER be a scarce good!
plz explain me how this is different from pirating games. if you want something and dont want to pay for it you dont want it enough and dont deserve it in the first place. i love excuses ppl give for doing stuff like that, it makes you look worse then you are for actually doing it.
I have a morality and a view of the world that not everyone will agree with. I don't believe in victimless crimes. In order for me to feel that something is "wrong," or "immoral," or "bad" it has to actual harm someone in some way. Behavior which cause no harm to anyone cannot be considered immoral according to my libertarian view of the world. Because gomtv is harmed in absolutely no shape, manner, or form, then I cannot feel guilty for watching videos. You cannot claim they are losing the money that I would have voluntarily paid, because I would NOT voluntarily pay. I would rather not watch at all if paying was the only option. Gomtv isn't affected or even aware of my actions in any way, so I don't consider it theft.
But I know it is popular in modern society to desire control over people even where their actions cause no harm to anyone in any way.
I find it very difficult to believe that if there was no option of obtaining Gomtv games illegally you wouldn't pay the $10 to watch them. It just seems like you tell yourself that to try and justify your theft.
I mean, you must be an avid starcraft 2 fan to make the effort of finding illegal ways to watch the content and as a fan of the GSL you must invest many hours into watching it all. However if there was no possible way to watch it other than spending $10 you wouldn't bother?
That sounds very strange to me and pretty unbelivable. I don't know what terrible financial situation you must be in that spending $10 is completely out of the question for something that you invest a lot of time into and enjoy.
I personally dont care if you would rather pirate the games than pay the $10. Luckily most of us are trying to support esports and are happy to pay for a quality service. If everyone had the same attitude as you there wouldn't even be anything like the GSL.
SC is big in Korea, GomTV is big in Korea, streaming to Korea is relatively cheap for GomTV.
SC is not big in the west, streaming to the west is incredibly expensive for GomTV.
Without some model to make money from westerners, Gom would have no justification to hire great english commentators and set up a FREE live stream for you ungrateful assholes who think they're just being greedy. So, we'd all be stuck watching restreams of Korean commentary if not for this pay-per-month system. Yeah, that sure would be great for the growth of eSports, right?
On January 31 2011 12:10 jdseemoreglass wrote: I would watch the VOD's on gomtv if they were free. Instead I watch them on other sites for free. That means gomtv is losing my advertising revenue, and their revenue is going to another site just because they decide to upload some videos.
This is the internet people.... the idea that you can regulate and keep any data off the internet is rediculous. Nearly every other site relies on viewership and advertising revenue to make their profit. Gomtv needs to get with the program.
Because you can access it somewhere else makes it okay to do so and cheat GOMtv out of money they need to continue producing the content that you enjoy? You, sir, have a terrible mindset.
You can't claim that I am cheating them of money simply because they are choosing to charge other people for it. Those people can pay if they like... I would rather watch for free, and I won't feel anymore guilty than when I watch free videos on youtube or anywhere else.
No, I can because you are.
They produce this content which they own, other people steal this and by proxy you steal it as well. "It's okay because someone else stole it first" does not make it so.
This post is the property of jdseemoreglass. To view the content contained in this post, please send me $5. Viewing this content without authorized permission is illegal.
lol but seriously, if the content you want is just a click away, what do you expect?
Paying for something from someone, when someone else is offering it for free: != morality = stupidity
Simple supply and demand. You can try to enforce artificial scarcity all you want, but data, by its very nature, is NOT scarce. Anything that can be reproduced an infinite number of times with the click of a button will NEVER be a scarce good!
plz explain me how this is different from pirating games. if you want something and dont want to pay for it you dont want it enough and dont deserve it in the first place. i love excuses ppl give for doing stuff like that, it makes you look worse then you are for actually doing it.
I have a morality and a view of the world that not everyone will agree with. I don't believe in victimless crimes. In order for me to feel that something is "wrong," or "immoral," or "bad" it has to actual harm someone in some way. Behavior which cause no harm to anyone cannot be considered immoral according to my libertarian view of the world. Because gomtv is harmed in absolutely no shape, manner, or form, then I cannot feel guilty for watching videos. You cannot claim they are losing the money that I would have voluntarily paid, because I would NOT voluntarily pay. I would rather not watch at all if paying was the only option. Gomtv isn't affected or even aware of my actions in any way, so I don't consider it theft.
But I know it is popular in modern society to desire control over people even where their actions cause no harm to anyone in any way.
I find it very difficult to believe that if there was no option of obtaining Gomtv games illegally you wouldn't pay the $10 to watch them. It just seems like you tell yourself that to try and justify your theft.
I mean, you must be an avid starcraft 2 fan to make the effort of finding illegal ways to watch the content and as a fan of the GSL you must invest many hours into watching it all. However if there was no possible way to watch it other than spending $10 you wouldn't bother?
That sounds very strange to me and pretty unbelivable. I don't know what terrible financial situation you must be in that spending $10 is completely out of the question for something that you invest a lot of time into and enjoy.
I personally dont care if you would rather pirate the games than pay the $10. Luckily most of us are trying to support esports and are happy to pay for a quality service. If everyone had the same attitude as you there wouldn't even be anything like the GSL.
I don't believe in paying to hear the radio station in my car either. Somehow they can manage their business without calling their customer a thief.
And it really takes no effort to find free alternatives, unless you think a google search is a real effort. And I haven't spent hours avidly watching the GSL lmao... If you want to pay to "support the community" go right ahead. I know full well that the community can and will thrive whether I throw away ten dollars or not.
On January 31 2011 13:22 Cel.erity wrote: This is really not so complicated, guys...
SC is big in Korea, GomTV is big in Korea, streaming to Korea is relatively cheap for GomTV.
SC is not big in the west, streaming to the west is incredibly expensive for GomTV.
Without some model to make money from westerners, Gom would have no justification to hire great english commentators and set up a FREE live stream for you ungrateful assholes who think they're just being greedy. So, we'd all be stuck watching restreams of Korean commentary if not for this pay-per-month system. Yeah, that sure would be great for the growth of eSports, right?
OP's main argument is not that Gom is greedy.
Yes business need to make money, But by charging the viewership, Gomtv is alienating not just mainstream but a significant portion of the population within SC2 community itself as well. Thinking about the future, which would be more logical? Small, dedicated niche community or larger viewer-ship/exposure with possibility of getting sponsorship, latter model being used in South Korea even for GSL already?
Also it itsn't unreasonable to ask for at least the VoDs to be free after certain period of time.
I'm sure they're probably looking into or have thought about putting advertisements on the VODs so that it can all just be free. The issue is though that the target audience spans across all continents. It's not like youtube where they're such a huge base and can just show you advertisements based on your location.
I have the season ticket. 10USD is like one meal for me, so i can sacrifice that once a month. I got the season pass because I wanted to be guaranteed an easy way to get access to high quality VODs when I have to stay asleep because of school and such. Honestly 10USD is nothing for a month of entertainment. MLG charges a similar price for a weekend of entertainment with advertisements, (although they do have better quality streams).
As for the people who say that they are in no way harming GOM by watching the videos elsewhere because they otherwise wouldn't watch, yea right. Think of it, if no one ever re-streamed or uploaded the VODs elsewhere, people like you wouldn't have access to those videos and would be forced to pay to watch. Their sales would skyrocket because that would be the only way to watch. Don't think that by watching a restream that's already available, that you are not supporting that act and making it worse because if not that many people watched restreams, then those providing the restreams would be less encouraged to do so.
On January 31 2011 12:10 jdseemoreglass wrote: I would watch the VOD's on gomtv if they were free. Instead I watch them on other sites for free. That means gomtv is losing my advertising revenue, and their revenue is going to another site just because they decide to upload some videos.
This is the internet people.... the idea that you can regulate and keep any data off the internet is rediculous. Nearly every other site relies on viewership and advertising revenue to make their profit. Gomtv needs to get with the program.
Because you can access it somewhere else makes it okay to do so and cheat GOMtv out of money they need to continue producing the content that you enjoy? You, sir, have a terrible mindset.
You can't claim that I am cheating them of money simply because they are choosing to charge other people for it. Those people can pay if they like... I would rather watch for free, and I won't feel anymore guilty than when I watch free videos on youtube or anywhere else.
No, I can because you are.
They produce this content which they own, other people steal this and by proxy you steal it as well. "It's okay because someone else stole it first" does not make it so.
This post is the property of jdseemoreglass. To view the content contained in this post, please send me $5. Viewing this content without authorized permission is illegal.
lol but seriously, if the content you want is just a click away, what do you expect?
Paying for something from someone, when someone else is offering it for free: != morality = stupidity
Simple supply and demand. You can try to enforce artificial scarcity all you want, but data, by its very nature, is NOT scarce. Anything that can be reproduced an infinite number of times with the click of a button will NEVER be a scarce good!
plz explain me how this is different from pirating games. if you want something and dont want to pay for it you dont want it enough and dont deserve it in the first place. i love excuses ppl give for doing stuff like that, it makes you look worse then you are for actually doing it.
I have a morality and a view of the world that not everyone will agree with. I don't believe in victimless crimes. In order for me to feel that something is "wrong," or "immoral," or "bad" it has to actual harm someone in some way. Behavior which cause no harm to anyone cannot be considered immoral according to my libertarian view of the world. Because gomtv is harmed in absolutely no shape, manner, or form, then I cannot feel guilty for watching videos. You cannot claim they are losing the money that I would have voluntarily paid, because I would NOT voluntarily pay. I would rather not watch at all if paying was the only option. Gomtv isn't affected or even aware of my actions in any way, so I don't consider it theft.
But I know it is popular in modern society to desire control over people even where their actions cause no harm to anyone in any way.
I find it very difficult to believe that if there was no option of obtaining Gomtv games illegally you wouldn't pay the $10 to watch them. It just seems like you tell yourself that to try and justify your theft.
I mean, you must be an avid starcraft 2 fan to make the effort of finding illegal ways to watch the content and as a fan of the GSL you must invest many hours into watching it all. However if there was no possible way to watch it other than spending $10 you wouldn't bother?
That sounds very strange to me and pretty unbelivable. I don't know what terrible financial situation you must be in that spending $10 is completely out of the question for something that you invest a lot of time into and enjoy.
I personally dont care if you would rather pirate the games than pay the $10. Luckily most of us are trying to support esports and are happy to pay for a quality service. If everyone had the same attitude as you there wouldn't even be anything like the GSL.
I don't believe in paying to hear the radio station in my car either. Somehow they can manage their business without calling their customer a thief.
And it really takes no effort to find free alternatives, unless you think a google search is a real effort. And I haven't spent hours avidly watching the GSL lmao... If you want to pay to "support the community" go right ahead. I know full well that the community can and will thrive whether I throw away ten dollars or not.
You don't need to pay to watch GSL live, which is what listening on the radio, or watching a live sports event is like.
You pay for the higher quality live option, and the on-demand option.
On January 31 2011 12:10 jdseemoreglass wrote: I would watch the VOD's on gomtv if they were free. Instead I watch them on other sites for free. That means gomtv is losing my advertising revenue, and their revenue is going to another site just because they decide to upload some videos.
This is the internet people.... the idea that you can regulate and keep any data off the internet is rediculous. Nearly every other site relies on viewership and advertising revenue to make their profit. Gomtv needs to get with the program.
Because you can access it somewhere else makes it okay to do so and cheat GOMtv out of money they need to continue producing the content that you enjoy? You, sir, have a terrible mindset.
You can't claim that I am cheating them of money simply because they are choosing to charge other people for it. Those people can pay if they like... I would rather watch for free, and I won't feel anymore guilty than when I watch free videos on youtube or anywhere else.
No, I can because you are.
They produce this content which they own, other people steal this and by proxy you steal it as well. "It's okay because someone else stole it first" does not make it so.
This post is the property of jdseemoreglass. To view the content contained in this post, please send me $5. Viewing this content without authorized permission is illegal.
lol but seriously, if the content you want is just a click away, what do you expect?
Paying for something from someone, when someone else is offering it for free: != morality = stupidity
Simple supply and demand. You can try to enforce artificial scarcity all you want, but data, by its very nature, is NOT scarce. Anything that can be reproduced an infinite number of times with the click of a button will NEVER be a scarce good!
plz explain me how this is different from pirating games. if you want something and dont want to pay for it you dont want it enough and dont deserve it in the first place. i love excuses ppl give for doing stuff like that, it makes you look worse then you are for actually doing it.
I have a morality and a view of the world that not everyone will agree with. I don't believe in victimless crimes. In order for me to feel that something is "wrong," or "immoral," or "bad" it has to actual harm someone in some way. Behavior which cause no harm to anyone cannot be considered immoral according to my libertarian view of the world. Because gomtv is harmed in absolutely no shape, manner, or form, then I cannot feel guilty for watching videos. You cannot claim they are losing the money that I would have voluntarily paid, because I would NOT voluntarily pay. I would rather not watch at all if paying was the only option. Gomtv isn't affected or even aware of my actions in any way, so I don't consider it theft.
But I know it is popular in modern society to desire control over people even where their actions cause no harm to anyone in any way.
So you're a libertarian who doesn't believe GOM should be paid for their product. Right...
The value of a product is dependent on its scarcity. Something that has no scarcity tends to have no value.
Gomtv only gets away with charging because enough people are either too ignorant to recognize the lack of scarcity, or have separate desires than simply viewing the "unscarce product," such as "supporting the community" or "not being a thief."
In a truly libertarian society you would be punished for violating the property rights of GOMtv, as would the people stealing their property so that you could later do so. There clearly is a market for it if people are willing to sponsor the show, willing to have their advertisements run in the Korean stream, and those outside the country are willing to pay money.
You're some kind of a pseudo-libertarian who doesn't follow the central doctrines/axioms of rights inherit to libertarianism.
Your radio argument: advertisements, or have you never actually listened to the radio?
It's clear to me that you're stuck in some sort of delusional belief system designed to make your actions palatable to yourself, and that it's not related to libertarian beliefs.
On January 31 2011 12:10 jdseemoreglass wrote: I would watch the VOD's on gomtv if they were free. Instead I watch them on other sites for free. That means gomtv is losing my advertising revenue, and their revenue is going to another site just because they decide to upload some videos.
This is the internet people.... the idea that you can regulate and keep any data off the internet is rediculous. Nearly every other site relies on viewership and advertising revenue to make their profit. Gomtv needs to get with the program.
Because you can access it somewhere else makes it okay to do so and cheat GOMtv out of money they need to continue producing the content that you enjoy? You, sir, have a terrible mindset.
You can't claim that I am cheating them of money simply because they are choosing to charge other people for it. Those people can pay if they like... I would rather watch for free, and I won't feel anymore guilty than when I watch free videos on youtube or anywhere else.
No, I can because you are.
They produce this content which they own, other people steal this and by proxy you steal it as well. "It's okay because someone else stole it first" does not make it so.
This post is the property of jdseemoreglass. To view the content contained in this post, please send me $5. Viewing this content without authorized permission is illegal.
lol but seriously, if the content you want is just a click away, what do you expect?
Paying for something from someone, when someone else is offering it for free: != morality = stupidity
Simple supply and demand. You can try to enforce artificial scarcity all you want, but data, by its very nature, is NOT scarce. Anything that can be reproduced an infinite number of times with the click of a button will NEVER be a scarce good!
plz explain me how this is different from pirating games. if you want something and dont want to pay for it you dont want it enough and dont deserve it in the first place. i love excuses ppl give for doing stuff like that, it makes you look worse then you are for actually doing it.
I have a morality and a view of the world that not everyone will agree with. I don't believe in victimless crimes. In order for me to feel that something is "wrong," or "immoral," or "bad" it has to actual harm someone in some way. Behavior which cause no harm to anyone cannot be considered immoral according to my libertarian view of the world. Because gomtv is harmed in absolutely no shape, manner, or form, then I cannot feel guilty for watching videos. You cannot claim they are losing the money that I would have voluntarily paid, because I would NOT voluntarily pay. I would rather not watch at all if paying was the only option. Gomtv isn't affected or even aware of my actions in any way, so I don't consider it theft.
But I know it is popular in modern society to desire control over people even where their actions cause no harm to anyone in any way.
I'm going to hack my cable so I can get HBO for free, because I wouldn't pay to watch it otherwise.
Or how about I get an illegal copy of SC2 for my friend, since he would never pay 60$ for it, but I'm sure he would still enjoy it. How could it hurt blizzard?
Anyways, as silent said, GOM has property rights, just like an author has copyright to his book. But wait! Their just words! why can't anyone have access to the book? It can't hurt the author if I wouldn't be willing to pay for the book.
Your view is not libertarian at all. Maybe anarchist, i don't know. If all information should be free, we wouldn't have professional authors, musicians, or game companies like blizzard. Would you like that?
Dollar per hour of entertainment, GSL is offering something incredibly good.
I understand the argument, even if I don't find it to be a good one, that some people obviously do have the resources to restream it for free so paying for it, like buying anything that can be pirated, can feel stupid. I think this decision is harder in American timezones (which I'm also a subject) because the free stream effectively plays at between 2 and 8 in the morning. However considering the production value it's not something they can realistically offer for free, or at least for very long.
An alternative done by other mediums is to run it generated by ads. However for ads to cover the cost ... 40+ hrs (I think it's over 60) of content for international clients who also know how to use things like Adblock... They would never even come close, and when they realize they can't support it eternally the backlash from putting a price on it later would be absurd.
Even something as simple as making the previous season's VODs free would open a lot of doors to growth as new comers could watch the previous season without charge. It is not as if they are so up to date that they need to watch the most recent matches to get a grasp of what they are missing. Thus if they do like what they see, they could end up being paying customers. Could be a decent compromise.
The problem with paying for the product is that they already give it away for free when it airs. Does it not seem silly to pay for something which is free? All I see it as is a big "Fuck you" to the people who can't watch the free stream due to time differences. Well if Gom is telling me "Fuck you", why should I buy their free product?
Although it is completely worth it, I do not think it is the right thing to do. What they need to do is have considerably better marketing, with better marketing comes a bigger fan base. Blizzard should have dates and times for all big tournament games on their website, make advertisements for it inside of wow, reach out to other companies such as but not limited to Game Stop, Best Buy, Slackers, and then also just try and get the community to play it up. With proper advertising they would easily triple the amount of people watching these games. I am not saying all of these people will be die hard fans or even play the game, but, if done right, it will get those that are the die hard fans, aka most TL goers, to try and host small events, like when people have some friends over to watch Sunday football or whatnot. IF they were able to advertise correctly and to the right demographic, I think the sponsors would come easily enough and then there would be no need to make people pay.
why does this always end in a pointless "worth the money" and "morals of the internet" debate..
ofcourse gsl vods costing money is a big obstacle for growing it and getting more ppl involved. lot of the non sc/rts guys i know that started some sc2 were kind interested in the whole esports thing. but mostly into the big high production tournaments (mlg/gsl and first iem). while like 3 very interested enough to look around for alternative sources for gsl vods the others stopped bothering quite fast. and from those 3 only on guy is left who atleast sometimes digs up some vods to watch.
its hard to get the random guy to pay for something hes used getting for free. even moreso over here where very very few ppl have creditcards or similar payment methods. so out of 10+ guys interested in it there is only 1 left still watching gsl sometimes.
ofc gom pays ton of prizemoney and only they know how their finances look. and i dont think its a question if its worth the 10$. still only a very small part of the ones interested will pay for whatever reason. but its also not even a question if $$ requirement keeps lots of people out of watching gsl since not evryone cares enough to search the web evryday for some recorded restream or a lucky not yet taken down youtube wit.
so ya it def hurts gsl in a way and keeps many people from getting into it. but if its possible / better for them to change anything about it (low qual vods for example) knows no one outside of gom. /edit or something like that
On January 31 2011 13:54 Klogon wrote: Even something as simple as making the previous season's VODs free would open a lot of doors to growth as new comers could watch the previous season without charge. It is not as if they are so up to date that they need to watch the most recent matches to get a grasp of what they are missing. Thus if they do like what they see, they could end up being paying customers. Could be a decent compromise.
nothing for the interested follower ofc. but def something great to show a friend "here watch that. thats gsl. amazing huh?"
For $10 I can get every game from a GSL season in 720p and get a higher quality stream while also doing my bit to support them... I can't actually see how this is bad?
Severing the feed and links to your videos in the name of "protecting profits" and "copyright infringement" only works if you're a relevant established property, i.e. "people will go out of their way to find your product". It works for the UFC, it would work for the NFL, it would work for the NBA. Limiting the exposure of a niche product doesn't do the product any favors.
On January 31 2011 13:58 how wrote: Although it is completely worth it, I do not think it is the right thing to do. What they need to do is have considerably better marketing, with better marketing comes a bigger fan base. Blizzard should have dates and times for all big tournament games on their website, make advertisements for it inside of wow, reach out to other companies such as but not limited to Game Stop, Best Buy, Slackers, and then also just try and get the community to play it up. With proper advertising they would easily triple the amount of people watching these games. I am not saying all of these people will be die hard fans or even play the game, but, if done right, it will get those that are the die hard fans, aka most TL goers, to try and host small events, like when people have some friends over to watch Sunday football or whatnot. IF they were able to advertise correctly and to the right demographic, I think the sponsors would come easily enough and then there would be no need to make people pay.
I just love how so many of you believe you know better than Blizzard, GOM, you name it. I wonder how many of you marketing geniuses are still in college, as opposed to out there in the business world. There is more bullshit and happy-talk on this thread than any I have ever seen on this forum.
First, the Libertarian dude, he doesn't know his ass from a hat. He is NO Libertarian, just a guy who likes to think himself intelligent.
As for you, you should know that better marketing does NOT insure a larger audience. (Think New Coke) Marketing is about awareness; not sales. They are two different things. You can make people aware of your product all day, but you still have to close the deal with a value proposition.
Anyway, Blizzard does list the dates and times of the big tournaments, as if anyone bothered to look. Those who want to watch these tournaments KNOW when they are happening. If not, nobody would enter them.
You guys have got to get it out of your heads that every product is attractive to any audience, if you just find a way to get it in front of them. That is nonsense, like most of the criticism of GOM on this thread.
Consider this; Android phones are outselling iPhones. Who do you think has better marketing for phones, Google or Apple? Nobody has better marketing than Apple. Under the logic used on this thread, Apple should outsell everyone on everything they sell.
They don't, because their product is NICHE. Not applicable to the masses. The PC is applicable to the masses, which is part of why it sucks. Mass appeal usually equals suck-age.
Starcraft is NOT a mass-appeal game. No good game is a mass-appeal game. Mass appeal? Think Donkey Kong. Inane, simple, easy, stupid, but POPULAR.
in all honesty if you dont feel your friends will be willing to pay to watch, give them your password, see if they get interesting. I know its "illegal" but its how i got a couple of my friends watching, who now pay for the service. Its not impossible to share the GSL love, but it does somewhat restrict you going to random person you dont know well and getting them hooked.
Personally i think its fine. The fee i just paid for feb was $5. If you have a friend whose interested show them a game, see if they like it, and its $5. I mean, when they started they had no money to support anything and still offered abroad, and can only do so with income from us - at least at the moment. The content is so worth it, i have no complaints and i dont feel it has really held back anyone who is interested. And if your goal is to get people interested who aren't, show them a video yourself (assuming these friends are RL friends).
But one thing i do agree with, and could help, is making old seasons free. Say not the previous season, but everything before that. So gsl 1+2 would be free, 3 goes free when Feb goes live, and Code S still has a small fee because of how recent it is. That would be pretty awesome.
I think that those saying that there should be no such thing as the premium ticket are fucking idiots, especially jdseemoreglass who is just an idiot overall in his entire worldview.
Comparing basic TV or radio to paying for GOMTV is stupid. For basic TV, you have to watch it live when it happens. Sure, there are ways to record it (set-top boxes, old-school VHS recorders) but those all cost money to provide you with that flexible on-demand option.
GSL is provided with a free live english stream for those who want the free option. However, if you do want that free option, you accept the limitations that come along with it, which is to say you accept that you're going to have to watch it at a certain time and the quality may not be amazing.
The time it is streamed could be a problem for some people, but I think its nice for once that the US people are the ones having to deal with awkwardly timed live events instead of everyone catering to the US and letting the rest of the world deal with awkward times.
I do agree, however, that having to buy a separate season ticket for old seasons is a bit much, and edges on the side of money-grabbing.
I don't think its an unreasonable expectation to charge for the current season and perhaps the previous season of HQ VODs, along with a charge for the premium stream, but older seasons should be free.
For example, my ideal view of how the GOMTV payment options should pan out is when this new season of the GSL starts, if I buy a season ticket for it, I get access to that season premium stream, that season HQ VODs, as well as the previous season HQ VODs. The seasons before that all become free. As each season ends and a new one starts, the premium ticket covers the current and immediately-prior-to-current season, and all other VODs are free.
that way if I want to go back and watch Fruitdealer vs HopeTorture from GSL1, I can do that free as a HQ VOD but if I want to see the GSL Season 6 (hypothetical example here) final while Season 7 is going on, I'd have to buy the season pass for that because its still current.
On January 31 2011 13:58 how wrote: Although it is completely worth it, I do not think it is the right thing to do. What they need to do is have considerably better marketing, with better marketing comes a bigger fan base. Blizzard should have dates and times for all big tournament games on their website, make advertisements for it inside of wow, reach out to other companies such as but not limited to Game Stop, Best Buy, Slackers, and then also just try and get the community to play it up. With proper advertising they would easily triple the amount of people watching these games. I am not saying all of these people will be die hard fans or even play the game, but, if done right, it will get those that are the die hard fans, aka most TL goers, to try and host small events, like when people have some friends over to watch Sunday football or whatnot. IF they were able to advertise correctly and to the right demographic, I think the sponsors would come easily enough and then there would be no need to make people pay.
I just love how so many of you believe you know better than Blizzard, GOM, you name it. I wonder how many of you marketing geniuses are still in college, as opposed to out there in the business world. There is more bullshit and happy-talk on this thread than any I have ever seen on this forum.
First, the Libertarian dude, he doesn't know his ass from a hat. He is NO Libertarian, just a guy who likes to think himself intelligent.
As for you, you should know that better marketing does NOT insure a larger audience. (Think New Coke) Marketing is about awareness; not sales. They are two different things. You can make people aware of your product all day, but you still have to close the deal with a value proposition.
Anyway, Blizzard does list the dates and times of the big tournaments, as if anyone bothered to look. Those who want to watch these tournaments KNOW when they are happening. If not, nobody would enter them.
You guys have got to get it out of your heads that every product is attractive to any audience, if you just find a way to get it in front of them. That is nonsense, like most of the criticism of GOM on this thread.
Consider this; Android phones are outselling iPhones. Who do you think has better marketing for phones, Google or Apple? Nobody has better marketing than Apple. Under the logic used on this thread, Apple should outsell everyone on everything they sell.
They don't, because their product is NICHE. Not applicable to the masses. The PC is applicable to the masses, which is part of why it sucks. Mass appeal usually equals suck-age.
Starcraft is NOT a mass-appeal game. No good game is a mass-appeal game. Mass appeal? Think Donkey Kong. Inane, simple, easy, stupid, but POPULAR.
You have just received Marketing 101.
That will be 5 dollars.
Bitches.
I do not believe I know better than them, but I do believe that there is a bigger market out there than what they have captured. I do understand that good marketing does not mean that you will get more sales, but there IS a reason marketing exists. If you have a good product and no one knows about it, who cares? If you have a shitty product, and market the hell out of it, people will figure it out pretty quickly, but if you have a good product and market it, then you got something. All that I am suggesting is that marketing only to the people who are already part of the community is not that effective. Obviously the people within the community need to be marketed to as well so that they know what is going on, but that does not mean there is no point in branching out.
As for you, why do talk down to people with hopes of making StarCraft bigger? If you do not want StarCraft to be any bigger, than why participate in this thread at all? Just because some of us want StarCraft to be something much bigger than it is today, whether or not YOU think it is possible does not mean that you know exactly what people do and do not want.
On January 31 2011 13:58 how wrote: Although it is completely worth it, I do not think it is the right thing to do. What they need to do is have considerably better marketing, with better marketing comes a bigger fan base. Blizzard should have dates and times for all big tournament games on their website, make advertisements for it inside of wow, reach out to other companies such as but not limited to Game Stop, Best Buy, Slackers, and then also just try and get the community to play it up. With proper advertising they would easily triple the amount of people watching these games. I am not saying all of these people will be die hard fans or even play the game, but, if done right, it will get those that are the die hard fans, aka most TL goers, to try and host small events, like when people have some friends over to watch Sunday football or whatnot. IF they were able to advertise correctly and to the right demographic, I think the sponsors would come easily enough and then there would be no need to make people pay.
I just love how so many of you believe you know better than Blizzard, GOM, you name it. I wonder how many of you marketing geniuses are still in college, as opposed to out there in the business world. There is more bullshit and happy-talk on this thread than any I have ever seen on this forum.
First, the Libertarian dude, he doesn't know his ass from a hat. He is NO Libertarian, just a guy who likes to think himself intelligent.
As for you, you should know that better marketing does NOT insure a larger audience. (Think New Coke) Marketing is about awareness; not sales. They are two different things. You can make people aware of your product all day, but you still have to close the deal with a value proposition.
Anyway, Blizzard does list the dates and times of the big tournaments, as if anyone bothered to look. Those who want to watch these tournaments KNOW when they are happening. If not, nobody would enter them.
You guys have got to get it out of your heads that every product is attractive to any audience, if you just find a way to get it in front of them. That is nonsense, like most of the criticism of GOM on this thread.
Consider this; Android phones are outselling iPhones. Who do you think has better marketing for phones, Google or Apple? Nobody has better marketing than Apple. Under the logic used on this thread, Apple should outsell everyone on everything they sell.
They don't, because their product is NICHE. Not applicable to the masses. The PC is applicable to the masses, which is part of why it sucks. Mass appeal usually equals suck-age.
Starcraft is NOT a mass-appeal game. No good game is a mass-appeal game. Mass appeal? Think Donkey Kong. Inane, simple, easy, stupid, but POPULAR.
You have just received Marketing 101.
That will be 5 dollars.
Bitches.
I do not believe I know better than them, but I do believe that there is a bigger market out there than what they have captured. I do understand that good marketing does not mean that you will get more sales, but there IS a reason marketing exists. If you have a good product and no one knows about it, who cares? If you have a shitty product, and market the hell out of it, people will figure it out pretty quickly, but if you have a good product and market it, then you got something. All that I am suggesting is that marketing only to the people who are already part of the community is not that effective. Obviously the people within the community need to be marketed to as well so that they know what is going on, but that does not mean there is no point in branching out.
As for you, why do talk down to people with hopes of making StarCraft bigger? If you do not want StarCraft to be any bigger, than why participate in this thread at all? Just because some of us want StarCraft to be something much bigger than it is today, whether or not YOU think it is possible does not mean that you know exactly what people do and do not want.
Where on earth do you get the idea that I dont want Starcraft to be bigger? What a stupid assumption! Of course, I would love it were Starcraft more popular. In my first post on this forum, I suggested exactly what I think should be done to make it so. I happen to think Blizzard and GOM are doing the right thing.
I think people should pay for what they receive, if they value it. Those who watch free GSL VODs are nobody friend. If you think I am talking down to people on this thread, maybe that is because I am a 36 year old business owner, where most of you are either in college or high school, and from this thread it is apparent that most of you know nothing about business or marketing YET.
Or, maybe the thread just pisses me off, because there are people asking whether or not we should pay for something that we supposedly all love, that is Starcraft. Sorry if you think me condescending, I just wish there was more actual thought on this thread than wishes and hopes.
Imho Gom needs to include the VODs for their daily tickets. Or offer VODs of individual series for a very low price (1$).
10$ is still too much for my casual friends, but I would like them to watch certain matches (which they would enjoy). "Watch them live" is problematic. First, I dont know which matches are going to be good (i.e. disappointing finals) and second the normal matches are at 10am. Not possible on a normal workday.
And they still need to provide better streaming services for EU. I'm on a 20mbit connection, can watch 10 TL streams simultaneously, but need to buffer my VODs which are 1mb.
Starcraft is NOT a mass-appeal game. No good game is a mass-appeal game. Mass appeal? Think Donkey Kong. Inane, simple, easy, stupid, but POPULAR.
I don't think that is the case for SC2. People don't have to play it to be a fan of watching it. Watching it can be simple and easy just like donkey kong. It can be a hell of a lot more exciting, too. I bet more than 50% of the people on this forum don't even play SC2 on a regular basis.
On January 31 2011 15:06 DyEnasTy wrote: I think its ok for GOM to expect money for this. I already pay to have satellite TV, so why not pay to have this (even better) "TV"?
But what deters me from actually paying is that I cant watch GSL so early/late. I work full time, and cant compromise sleep to watch "TV".
This is what I mean. (jesus)
Dude, if you pay for the GSL, you can watch the games whenever you want to. Over and over again. Ok, I'm tired. Good night.
Starcraft is NOT a mass-appeal game. No good game is a mass-appeal game. Mass appeal? Think Donkey Kong. Inane, simple, easy, stupid, but POPULAR.
I don't think that is the case for SC2. People don't have to play it to be a fan of watching it. Watching it can be simple and easy just like donkey kong. It can be a hell of a lot more exciting, too. I bet more than 50% of the people on this forum don't even play SC2 on a regular basis.
Oh brother. Ok, one more.
Dude, when you can explain to your Grandma a Timing Push, or why 2-Port Banshees is deadly against Zerg FE, or why you need detection for DTs, and have Grandma understand it within 60 seconds, then Starcraft will be mass-appeal.
On January 31 2011 15:06 DyEnasTy wrote: I think its ok for GOM to expect money for this. I already pay to have satellite TV, so why not pay to have this (even better) "TV"?
But what deters me from actually paying is that I cant watch GSL so early/late. I work full time, and cant compromise sleep to watch "TV".
I've bought all 4 seasons and I never watch live. I pay for the HQ VODs that I can watch on demand, skip pre-game/post-game commentary if I want, and not have to worry about stream issues.
Starcraft is NOT a mass-appeal game. No good game is a mass-appeal game. Mass appeal? Think Donkey Kong. Inane, simple, easy, stupid, but POPULAR.
I don't think that is the case for SC2. People don't have to play it to be a fan of watching it. Watching it can be simple and easy just like donkey kong. It can be a hell of a lot more exciting, too. I bet more than 50% of the people on this forum don't even play SC2 on a regular basis.
Oh brother. Ok, one more.
Dude, when you can explain to your Grandma a Timing Push, or why 2-Port Banshees is deadly against Zerg FE, or why you need detection for DTs, and have Grandma understand it within 60 seconds, then Starcraft will be mass-appeal.
Dammit.
There is almost no sport that you will understand fully in 60 seconds, she can however see who has the bigger army and should even recognize the larger units as more powerful and understand the basics of the game (losing your base or army = bad).
I think the act of paying online itself is a deterrence for a lot of casual fans or younger kids especially. Maybe not so much in this generation anymore but it is still a valid point.
It is not the price that is the issue. There is barely any difference between $5 or $20 for me ( and for most people here tbh). Someone pointed out something about TIME charging $1 for their online content ( which is negligible) and they immediately lost 90 percent of hits.
Figures might not be accurate but you get the point.
On January 31 2011 13:28 LittleAtari wrote: As for the people who say that they are in no way harming GOM by watching the videos elsewhere because they otherwise wouldn't watch, yea right. Think of it, if no one ever re-streamed or uploaded the VODs elsewhere, people like you wouldn't have access to those videos and would be forced to pay to watch. Their sales would skyrocket because that would be the only way to watch. Don't think that by watching a restream that's already available, that you are not supporting that act and making it worse because if not that many people watched restreams, then those providing the restreams would be less encouraged to do so.
Bull. ****. Forced to pay my ass. No one is forced to buy anything. Those that don't want to pay aren't going to pay and no one can force them to. If there were no restreams or uploaded VODs and the only way to watch was at an inconvenient time or to pay, they just wouldn't watch it. As a result, there would be no interest at all, and they wouldn't even watch the free VODs on the GOM's site. And by not having any interest, even the free VODs would not be shared on sites like Facebook and Twitter and such amongst the people that would no longer watch them, leading to even more decreased exposure because even less people would become interested. Sales would plummet, not skyrocket.
Many of those that watch the free Restreams/VODs want to support E-Sports but think GOM's method of "pay or watch at an inconvenient time" is the wrong way to do it, so they don't support it. But they do want to support the parts of GOM they like and at the very least, watch the first vid/interviews on the GOM site. Free VODs, whether they be HQ, SQ, ad-supported, or ad-free, is the right way to go and everyone will support that, and they share the free official GOM VODs that they like on Facebook and Twitter, leading to more views, more exposure, more free publicity, and potentially more sales. I definitely do.
Definitely worth it. I enjoy it quite too much and I feel like there's something missing during off seasons.
On the e-sports side, yeah more people would be interested if they could get VODs for free too, but there are illicit means available + free streams. Conversely, think about like this. If GomTV couldn't make money or enough money they won't be able to host as large of an event as the GSL as often. Without the GSL SC2 as a e-sport is dead or mute.
the GSL is the by far the best option for SC2 viewers that are willing to purchase content. it has no real competition in this way. it's a good idea from that pov.
as for if GOM would have had made more money if they waited to charge for future seasons, i don't know if anyone can even guess that that but people who have seen their profits and losses.
I bought season tickets since Season 2. I dont watch HQ as Internet is CRAP in Australia (pay for traffic? wtf!). So basically I get access to all the VODs and I think it's amazing.
I dont think argument like "they have to pay that an that" should be used. Want for free? Make your own tourney and organize it.
I'm more then happy to contribute to eSport awareness!!!!!!! :D
And seriously..."$10 is to much for your friends?" did you freaking count how much $ you donate("borrowing" from your mom) to Coca Cola every week......
I'd say for everything great game, there are about five or six groaners. So I'm kind of on the fence for the next season.
If there were more Zergs (the race I'd play), I'd be more inclined to re-subscribe ... but's it looking like Terrans are going to dominate next season.
I also wish there were more foreigners ... not because I'm racist, but I'm starting to find Korean style of all-in-ish, high risk high reward play really monotonous. Most games are one-sided.
I'd rather have macro games, with a lot of back-and-forth. If the GOM puts in the new maps this coming season, that might lure me to re-subscribe as well.
I think the amount of money GOMTV charges is reasonable and I like the fact that the SQ stream is free as well as the first game in every series, but I think they may be able to bring in a larger audience with a rework of their system if the resources are available.
Maybe GOMTV can try to set up an advertising system like youtube or those live streams that people use a lot. They can sell adspots on their VODs and the revenue they earn that way would replace the money they take in for the monthly payments from people. The difficult part would be finding people willing to advertise on the VODs... they could probably try and contact the usual suspects like car companies and electronics/computer companies. I'm not entirely sure how much money these ads bring in and maybe it won't be enough, but heres to hoping they try something like this.
From what I can tell, this conversation is indefinitely going to be "I don't hurt the GSL by paying for something I was never going to" versus "stop being a thief and pay for the GSL, twenty dollars is an unbeatable bargain and the greatest purchase you will ever make but you are just a thief". Not to say that I don't welcome the original poster asking the question, but the battle lines were fairly obvious.
those free-content-for-the-development-of-esport arguements are bs. BW contents on MBC & OGN are paid-contents on korean cable TV. I suppose all those utube VODs and livestreams on TL are not legal and not supported by the company
Technically, BW contents (from Korea) are not free, and same as GOM content. You should be relieved and thankful to GOM for providing a free SQ and so-cheap HQ. Not happy ? there'r always HQ re-streams and sites for downloading VODs. You still can get as much as you want without willing to pay. Stop whining.
Im happy to pay only $15 for one month of HBO, ESPN, and Im more than happy to pay only $15 for one month of daily-entertainment GSL & support esport
I have to admit, I can be a cheap bastard but i'm more than willing to put down $$ for the GSL. 2+ hours every day for a month for $10 and I enjoy every minute - well worth it. I just hope that the money really is going back into the GSL and not just used to pay salaries.
On January 31 2011 08:26 Spacemanspiff wrote: Stop saying how good of a deal it is to people who already want to watch it. The part that matter is if new or casual people will want to pay for it. The current live stream and vod setup is very poor at attracting new viewers.
What of them? There are plenty of streams of non-GSL tournaments that they could be watching.
If people are interested in quality StarCraft 2 programming, it exists. For free. GOM is simply charging for their product. A new or casual person will be perfectly capable of picking up non-GSL tournaments just fine.
Your assumption is that there's something fundamentally different about the GSL. That a new or casual SC2 watcher will be turned off from all StarCraft 2 tournaments if they can't watch the GSL for free.
In general, people who are interested in watching the GSL can decide for themselves if they want to pay for it. New and casual players generally will not know about the GSL (since it is a foreign-to-them tournament). They'll know more about local tournaments and so forth. The Korean market is not the only place to go to find quality StarCraft 2.
Starcraft is NOT a mass-appeal game. No good game is a mass-appeal game. Mass appeal? Think Donkey Kong. Inane, simple, easy, stupid, but POPULAR.
I don't think that is the case for SC2. People don't have to play it to be a fan of watching it. Watching it can be simple and easy just like donkey kong. It can be a hell of a lot more exciting, too. I bet more than 50% of the people on this forum don't even play SC2 on a regular basis.
Oh brother. Ok, one more.
Dude, when you can explain to your Grandma a Timing Push, or why 2-Port Banshees is deadly against Zerg FE, or why you need detection for DTs, and have Grandma understand it within 60 seconds, then Starcraft will be mass-appeal.
Dammit.
People don't need to understand the intricacies of the game to enjoy it, or at least decide they want to understand it because it looks cool. And my grandma isn't exactly who I am thinking of. I am thinking more of 15 or so friends I know, around the age of 18-20.
Starcraft is NOT a mass-appeal game. No good game is a mass-appeal game. Mass appeal? Think Donkey Kong. Inane, simple, easy, stupid, but POPULAR.
I don't think that is the case for SC2. People don't have to play it to be a fan of watching it. Watching it can be simple and easy just like donkey kong. It can be a hell of a lot more exciting, too. I bet more than 50% of the people on this forum don't even play SC2 on a regular basis.
I think Blizzard actually tried to make Starcraft 2 more appealing to the masses, because they tried to "speed up" the whole game with the macro mechanics. Unfortunately the increased unit AI and the completely different handling of the races has introduced a volatility into Starcraft 2 which makes cheese and early aggression much more likely to succeed and I for one dont think that is a good thing, because skill is replaced largely by luck when figuring out who wins a match that way. Sure there are ways to beat most cheeses, but as the complaints of Zerg everywhere have shown it doesnt work equally well for everyone.
IMO it is just as in the movies ... sequels most of the time "need" bigger explosions and "more epic special effects" and that is bad. If we go down that road we arrive at a point when things are simply ridiculous and do not work anymore. Lets see how the new units for the next two SC2 expansions look ...
In all I think it is bad for GOM to ask for payment for the stream instead of having ad breaks for everyone. They do have their own player, so it is entirely possible to take out adblockers that way. The total excitement of any sport comes from watching it live and VODs simply arent as interesting unless you want to study them. I would compare it with newspapers, where nothing is older than yesterdays newspaper.
On January 31 2011 08:26 Spacemanspiff wrote: Stop saying how good of a deal it is to people who already want to watch it. The part that matter is if new or casual people will want to pay for it. The current live stream and vod setup is very poor at attracting new viewers.
What of them? There are plenty of streams of non-GSL tournaments that they could be watching.
If people are interested in quality StarCraft 2 programming, it exists. For free. GOM is simply charging for their product. A new or casual person will be perfectly capable of picking up non-GSL tournaments just fine.
Your assumption is that there's something fundamentally different about the GSL. That a new or casual SC2 watcher will be turned off from all StarCraft 2 tournaments if they can't watch the GSL for free.
In general, people who are interested in watching the GSL can decide for themselves if they want to pay for it. New and casual players generally will not know about the GSL (since it is a foreign-to-them tournament). They'll know more about local tournaments and so forth. The Korean market is not the only place to go to find quality StarCraft 2.
The GSL is fundamentally different...it makes no difference that it's a Korean tournament because Korea is well known to be the center of SC esports; even my non-gamer/non-SC playing friends know that. When word got out about the GSL's huge prize pool it got a lot of attention, and for someone who's casually into the game it's the tourney they're most likely to know about. Suggesting that someone who doesn't know about the game would know enough to look at TL for tourneys or know about something like the TSL is ridiculous; if they know about SCII esports/only one tourney, that tourney is most likely to be the GSL. Casual players, by their definition, are not going to be willing to pay ten dollars for something they aren't too invested in, and don't know enough to watch other free tournaments. As the best known tournament out there, to both Koreans and foreigners, having the most famous tournament out there essentially closed off to people who are curious about esports is going to hurt.
On January 31 2011 13:58 how wrote: Although it is completely worth it, I do not think it is the right thing to do. What they need to do is have considerably better marketing, with better marketing comes a bigger fan base. Blizzard should have dates and times for all big tournament games on their website, make advertisements for it inside of wow, reach out to other companies such as but not limited to Game Stop, Best Buy, Slackers, and then also just try and get the community to play it up. With proper advertising they would easily triple the amount of people watching these games. I am not saying all of these people will be die hard fans or even play the game, but, if done right, it will get those that are the die hard fans, aka most TL goers, to try and host small events, like when people have some friends over to watch Sunday football or whatnot. IF they were able to advertise correctly and to the right demographic, I think the sponsors would come easily enough and then there would be no need to make people pay.
I just love how so many of you believe you know better than Blizzard, GOM, you name it. I wonder how many of you marketing geniuses are still in college, as opposed to out there in the business world. There is more bullshit and happy-talk on this thread than any I have ever seen on this forum.
First, the Libertarian dude, he doesn't know his ass from a hat. He is NO Libertarian, just a guy who likes to think himself intelligent.
As for you, you should know that better marketing does NOT insure a larger audience. (Think New Coke) Marketing is about awareness; not sales. They are two different things. You can make people aware of your product all day, but you still have to close the deal with a value proposition.
Anyway, Blizzard does list the dates and times of the big tournaments, as if anyone bothered to look. Those who want to watch these tournaments KNOW when they are happening. If not, nobody would enter them.
You guys have got to get it out of your heads that every product is attractive to any audience, if you just find a way to get it in front of them. That is nonsense, like most of the criticism of GOM on this thread.
Consider this; Android phones are outselling iPhones. Who do you think has better marketing for phones, Google or Apple? Nobody has better marketing than Apple. Under the logic used on this thread, Apple should outsell everyone on everything they sell.
They don't, because their product is NICHE. Not applicable to the masses. The PC is applicable to the masses, which is part of why it sucks. Mass appeal usually equals suck-age.
Starcraft is NOT a mass-appeal game. No good game is a mass-appeal game. Mass appeal? Think Donkey Kong. Inane, simple, easy, stupid, but POPULAR.
You have just received Marketing 101.
That will be 5 dollars.
Bitches.
I do not believe I know better than them, but I do believe that there is a bigger market out there than what they have captured. I do understand that good marketing does not mean that you will get more sales, but there IS a reason marketing exists. If you have a good product and no one knows about it, who cares? If you have a shitty product, and market the hell out of it, people will figure it out pretty quickly, but if you have a good product and market it, then you got something. All that I am suggesting is that marketing only to the people who are already part of the community is not that effective. Obviously the people within the community need to be marketed to as well so that they know what is going on, but that does not mean there is no point in branching out.
As for you, why do talk down to people with hopes of making StarCraft bigger? If you do not want StarCraft to be any bigger, than why participate in this thread at all? Just because some of us want StarCraft to be something much bigger than it is today, whether or not YOU think it is possible does not mean that you know exactly what people do and do not want.
Where on earth do you get the idea that I dont want Starcraft to be bigger? What a stupid assumption! Of course, I would love it were Starcraft more popular. In my first post on this forum, I suggested exactly what I think should be done to make it so. I happen to think Blizzard and GOM are doing the right thing.
I think people should pay for what they receive, if they value it. Those who watch free GSL VODs are nobody friend. If you think I am talking down to people on this thread, maybe that is because I am a 36 year old business owner, where most of you are either in college or high school, and from this thread it is apparent that most of you know nothing about business or marketing YET.
Or, maybe the thread just pisses me off, because there are people asking whether or not we should pay for something that we supposedly all love, that is Starcraft. Sorry if you think me condescending, I just wish there was more actual thought on this thread than wishes and hopes.
Pay for the GSL, kids.
Well I am glad that we are on the same team, and I will be the first to admit that I am in deed a kid that is in college, and while when I read you your post, I did see that you made valid points, but doing so in a condescending tone does not make people want to agree with you. If you are getting personally mad at what people are saying, just chill out, don't take what any says personally, and if you want to guide how they can help the community, do that ,don't just tell them thye are wrong and to pay more money.
Starcraft is NOT a mass-appeal game. No good game is a mass-appeal game. Mass appeal? Think Donkey Kong. Inane, simple, easy, stupid, but POPULAR.
I don't think that is the case for SC2. People don't have to play it to be a fan of watching it. Watching it can be simple and easy just like donkey kong. It can be a hell of a lot more exciting, too. I bet more than 50% of the people on this forum don't even play SC2 on a regular basis.
Oh brother. Ok, one more.
Dude, when you can explain to your Grandma a Timing Push, or why 2-Port Banshees is deadly against Zerg FE, or why you need detection for DTs, and have Grandma understand it within 60 seconds, then Starcraft will be mass-appeal.
Dammit.
SC2 is still enjoyable to people who don't understand any of that stuff. My fiancee is a prime example. She now does play the game and plays it damn well, but she didn't when we started watching GSL together and while she had the advantage of having me there to explain certain things that were said she still enjoyed it despite not knowing a lot about it yet.
Sure, your grandma might not be able to pick it up, but old people just aren't very good at picking up new things like this, thats not a phenomenon exclusive to Starcraft.
In all I think it is bad for GOM to ask for payment for the stream instead of having ad breaks for everyone. They do have their own player, so it is entirely possible to take out adblockers that way. The total excitement of any sport comes from watching it live and VODs simply arent as interesting unless you want to study them. I would compare it with newspapers, where nothing is older than yesterdays newspaper.
and it sucks.
I watched GSL the first and second season, then I lost interest. Id never pay for something that is free every other place you go. The more people that pays the more you promote pay-per-view and the less the sport will grow.
How do you expect them to grow with the only money coming in is sponsorship? Also why wouldn't you pay TEN DOLLARS, thats TEN DOLLARS, something a 14 year old could earn in ONE HOUR for a whole month to watch professional starcraft 2, and by doing so you are helping e-sports grow so much.
People complaining about waking up a few hours earlier.. Grow the fuck up I mean seriously go to bed an hour or two earlier, there are so much more worse things that could happen to you then waking up early.
I'm going to buy the premium package when march comes along and I might even buy it for this months GSTL I mean $120 over a year to watch HOURS and HOURS of professional level starcraft is SO worth it.
2) SC2 is niche right now. It is also unclear whether it will expand beyond niche. This point is another debate.
3) Advertising on SC2 international streams will reach members of a niche eSports market. There is no geographic context, no market data on spending habits, absolutely no real quantitative data (at least publicly available) that is characterizes this market beyond 'watches or interested in watching SC2' and a really rough population (i.e. how many people).
4) Price insensitivity. People within this niche market seem not to enjoy paying for things. Figures on this are sketchy (and probably unavailable AND difficult to estimate), but if there's a sufficient risk members of a small, niche market simply not paying for the main product, that smells like a low chance of paying for anything an advertiser would sell.
5) No market research data + risk of price sensitivity = no advertisers.
6) No advertisers = no advertising/free stream business model to sustain the foreign stream unless a) Gom's supplementing with other sources of revenue, or b) Gom's willing to take a loss (hey, let's just make some less money this year and maybe stuff'll happen).
I can't see how anyone can justify advertising as an effective, or even feasible way of sustaining the foreign stream. Rebuttals to the free TV/radio arguments have already been detailed sufficiently.
The point of exposure is fair, but what really drives the growth of sports (e- or otherwise) or any industry for that matter, is money. I don't pretend to understand sports industries, as they are way out of the industry I work in, but I can posit that if there is no money in esports, then it will not grow. You can have as great of a fan community as you would like but ultimately, if the companies involved in the industry (or required for that industry, e.g. Blizz, broadcasting, etc) are not generating some value, the industry won't develop.
I don't believe that 'more exposure' is the way to do things. I think more people paying for the stream is the way to do things. The more you show that the niche foreign SC2 market is honestly willing to spend money, the more likely an advertiser will be interested. However, if an advertiser sees a currently uncharacterized market that is openly resistant to not paying ... well. Doesn't take a genius.
Actually, it might be an interesting marketing exercise to characterize the foreign SC2 market. Someone should get on that. Or help me somehow turn it into a legitimate white paper or something.
On January 31 2011 08:26 Spacemanspiff wrote: Stop saying how good of a deal it is to people who already want to watch it. The part that matter is if new or casual people will want to pay for it. The current live stream and vod setup is very poor at attracting new viewers.
What of them? There are plenty of streams of non-GSL tournaments that they could be watching.
If people are interested in quality StarCraft 2 programming, it exists. For free. GOM is simply charging for their product. A new or casual person will be perfectly capable of picking up non-GSL tournaments just fine.
Your assumption is that there's something fundamentally different about the GSL. That a new or casual SC2 watcher will be turned off from all StarCraft 2 tournaments if they can't watch the GSL for free.
In general, people who are interested in watching the GSL can decide for themselves if they want to pay for it. New and casual players generally will not know about the GSL (since it is a foreign-to-them tournament). They'll know more about local tournaments and so forth. The Korean market is not the only place to go to find quality StarCraft 2.
One of the few rational posts in this thread so far.
On January 31 2011 08:26 Spacemanspiff wrote: Stop saying how good of a deal it is to people who already want to watch it. The part that matter is if new or casual people will want to pay for it. The current live stream and vod setup is very poor at attracting new viewers.
What of them? There are plenty of streams of non-GSL tournaments that they could be watching.
If people are interested in quality StarCraft 2 programming, it exists. For free. GOM is simply charging for their product. A new or casual person will be perfectly capable of picking up non-GSL tournaments just fine.
Your assumption is that there's something fundamentally different about the GSL. That a new or casual SC2 watcher will be turned off from all StarCraft 2 tournaments if they can't watch the GSL for free.
In general, people who are interested in watching the GSL can decide for themselves if they want to pay for it. New and casual players generally will not know about the GSL (since it is a foreign-to-them tournament). They'll know more about local tournaments and so forth. The Korean market is not the only place to go to find quality StarCraft 2.
The GSL is fundamentally different...it makes no difference that it's a Korean tournament because Korea is well known to be the center of SC esports; even my non-gamer/non-SC playing friends know that. When word got out about the GSL's huge prize pool it got a lot of attention, and for someone who's casually into the game it's the tourney they're most likely to know about. Suggesting that someone who doesn't know about the game would know enough to look at TL for tourneys or know about something like the TSL is ridiculous; if they know about SCII esports/only one tourney, that tourney is most likely to be the GSL. Casual players, by their definition, are not going to be willing to pay ten dollars for something they aren't too invested in, and don't know enough to watch other free tournaments. As the best known tournament out there, to both Koreans and foreigners, having the most famous tournament out there essentially closed off to people who are curious about esports is going to hurt.
Personally I think the GSl is not that much "better" than the other tournaments due to their big prize pool, because you can still have crappy and boring games. The only difference is that the streaming is "organized" and you get to watch every game. For other tournaments you only get to watch a fraction of the games and might miss some epic ones while watching a boring one.
Big money <> better games!
That is the reason why I think the GOM stream should be free / ad supported.
The only comparable thing - when looking at the streaming / organization of the matches - is the IEM, but the last european one from Kiev showed that having a schedule with different games coming from the same stage and where "B starts when A is finished" is really really bad. Delays do not improve watchability, so they have room to improve as well. Additionally there is nothing as bad as reading the comments of tons of Counterstrike / Quake - Kiddies who are dissing Starcraft as boring on the forum ...
On January 31 2011 15:38 kash2k wrote: And seriously..."$10 is to much for your friends?" did you freaking count how much $ you donate("borrowing" from your mom) to Coca Cola every week......
Actually I can tell you the amount I donated to Coca Cola every week: 0$
And for only 5€ more / month I could watch 53 more TV channels. For only 10€ more / month I could get 64mbit internet (I have 20mbit). For only 20€ / month I could watch all soccer games.
But I'm not interested in more TV channels (havent watched any TV at all the last 2 weeks). I dont need 64mbit downstream, maybe I'd need it once a week. And I dont want to watch all soccer games, maybe 2-3 /month.
So "it's just XXX money" doesnt count - for me the 10$ GSL are worth it. But for my friends it isnt. They pay for other stuff that I dont buy. But my friends dont surf on TL, they play SC2 once/twice a week for maybe 2 hours. No 1on1 only teamgames with people they know. So the typical "casual". But they would be interested in watching good 1on1s for the right price. And 10$ for 2-3 series isnt the right price for them. So a cheaper option would be good. We hardcore fans will still buy the 10$ package (someone said 65 VODs) while the casuals can buy 2-3 games. Good for everyone (even GOM, because they get additional paying customers).
On January 31 2011 11:42 Xafnia wrote: I pretty much don't care or follow GSL because of the lack of vods. I've watched maybe 1-2 series per GSL since season 2.
They are killing the interest in their own product, it's pretty silly.
esports will never survive if it is not financially solvent, and than means paying customers.
You pay $10 and you get what, 50 hours worth of VODs? Yeah, horrible deal!
yeah .. like how BW is over 10 year right?
oh wait ..
most people doesn't get the the impact of casuals/non-gamers watching the game ..
do you think that 3/4 year old bisu fan girl plays? No ..
do you think those stalker/fan girls play hardcore BW or do they even play at all? No ..
also, 10$ is worth more in other countries.
BW has advertising revenue in its main country. GOM can't offer the same level of advertising because it's online and streamed towards a wide foreign audience. Plugging Sony Ericson and Pepsi isn't enough to carry those bills.
$10 is also worth a lot less in other countries.
Saying the pay per view model doesn't work is ridiculous. MMA seems to be doing fine with it, and until the fights got boring, boxing was as well. SC2 is never going to be like baseball or football, and it's doubtful they'll ever reach those sort of profit margins on advertising revenue alone. It's a niche activity, so it's revenue model works like one. I'm perfectly fine with that and I think GOM does a fantastic job. Especially when VODs are uploaded within hours of completion.
A lot of people in this thread are extremely ignorant of bandwidth costs. There's a reason all the video streaming sites are huge capital ventures and Youtube was in the red until a year ago, and they've got a scale advantage. Thinking that GOM could cover those costs through website ad dollars is absurd.
The first set of every match is free. If someone unacquainted with SC2 wants to get into it, they easily can. Of course they could get more views by making them free, but would they make more money? Since none of you are business managers and not aware of the factors involved, I'm going to put my trust in GOM's MBAs over your internet BSes.
Thank you Jibba. I do understand how people are reluctant to pay, PERIOD. It is still quite ridiculous how a lot of people have the sense of entitlement to free stuff everywhere they go.
"hey, you can watch this US/EU SC2 tournament with top players competing for a few thousand bucks on the internet" "wow, this is awesome" "well, guess what? You should check out the GSL. It's a global tournament in South Korea (where starcraft 1 has become a spectator sport over the last decade) that has only the best of the best. The winner gets like $80,000 or something crazy like that. You can watch a whole season on GOMTV.net for only $10 in HD, casted in English."
I don't see how we wouldn't attract casuals with the current setup.
On January 31 2011 07:02 JoeSchmoe wrote: my question is simple. how do they make money? gomtv is not a charity.
How does MLG make money? MLG isn't a charity. How does the IEM make money? IEM isn't a charity. How does TL make money? TL isn't a charity.
i didn't realize a $50k 1st place prize was equal to like a total of $20k prize pot the streams are free in korea i believe because that's where their audience is
I'd rather have free VODs and a slightly lower prize pool.
How nice of you to sacrifice the prize pools you wouldn't be winning.
Players need to make money. Companies need to make money. Advertisers need to make money.
E-sports is a business in the end.
I don't think they care if they don't attract watchers who don't want to spend on their entertainment - "success" of e-sports is only secondary to making a goddamn living.
I haven't even been able to get my GomPlayer to load for more than 30 seconds this season. Season 1-2 wouldn't load, season 3 worked fine, season 4.. no dice. I've reinstalled so many times, both the player and streamer, it's really annoying. I got interested in SC2 in the beta watching Husky's casts on youtube, without that I may not have been as interested. I certainly wouldn't be staying up late or getting up early to watch something as a first introduction to it, VoD's serve as the introduction and watching Live is what you do once you have an interest.
On January 31 2011 07:02 JoeSchmoe wrote: my question is simple. how do they make money? gomtv is not a charity.
How does MLG make money? MLG isn't a charity. How does the IEM make money? IEM isn't a charity. How does TL make money? TL isn't a charity.
i didn't realize a $50k 1st place prize was equal to like a total of $20k prize pot the streams are free in korea i believe because that's where their audience is
I'd rather have free VODs and a slightly lower prize pool.
How nice of you to sacrifice the prize pools you wouldn't be winning.
OSL and MSL pay about half the prize pool of GSL and have less frequent tournaments, just in case you weren't aware.
On January 31 2011 07:02 JoeSchmoe wrote: my question is simple. how do they make money? gomtv is not a charity.
How does MLG make money? MLG isn't a charity. How does the IEM make money? IEM isn't a charity. How does TL make money? TL isn't a charity.
i didn't realize a $50k 1st place prize was equal to like a total of $20k prize pot the streams are free in korea i believe because that's where their audience is
I'd rather have free VODs and a slightly lower prize pool.
How nice of you to sacrifice the prize pools you wouldn't be winning.
OSL and MSL pay about half the prize pool of GSL and have less frequent tournaments, just in case you weren't aware.
So your point is... they should have less tournaments so theres less content, and less prize money so there's less incentive for pros to play/foreigners to come to korea?
You do realise the majority of Pros in BW make a salary?
On January 31 2011 07:02 JoeSchmoe wrote: my question is simple. how do they make money? gomtv is not a charity.
How does MLG make money? MLG isn't a charity. How does the IEM make money? IEM isn't a charity. How does TL make money? TL isn't a charity.
i didn't realize a $50k 1st place prize was equal to like a total of $20k prize pot the streams are free in korea i believe because that's where their audience is
I'd rather have free VODs and a slightly lower prize pool.
How nice of you to sacrifice the prize pools you wouldn't be winning.
OSL and MSL pay about half the prize pool of GSL and have less frequent tournaments, just in case you weren't aware.
So your point is... they should have less tournaments so theres less content, and less prize money so there's less incentive for pros to play/foreigners to come to korea?
You do realise the majority of Pros in BW make a salary?
Some people are under the impression that people who do not fork over $10 for the ticket are lazy and unwilling to part with a meager amount of money, but there ARE other restrictions *coughparentscough*. Simply having the transaction online, regardless of price, is a HUGE deterrent for people who would otherwise be glad to spend some money.
Other than that, having to pay for a ticket from 12 years ago seems a bit ridiculous (slightly exaggerated). I think VODs should go free after 2 seasons or so, since it makes more sense >.<
this is going to be my last season paying for it. if i enjoyed sc2 as much as i enjoyed sc1 i would probably still pay for it because of the sheer amount of content provided.
an issue i had is that the one time i wanted to watch live matches (idra vs jinro), the shit was so bogged down i couldnt, and waited till the next day. not a huge deal but what a pain in the ass.
On one hand, if you have the money you are easily getting your money's worth out of the $10.00 no question.
However, that's only if you're interested in SC2 in the first place. It cuts out the casual fan base. For a sports analogy- there's no way I'd pay to watch the NHL play-off on TV. I casually watch hockey with my friends during the play-offs and that's it. If I had to pay for it, I wouldn't watch at all.
So then there is the SQ live stream. Which is good. It's free and I've used it quite often. However, I often ended up going to bed at 4am or 5am in the morning (My time zone is PST). It's worth it to me because I'm really into Starcraft and watching a Jinro or Boxer game means something to me. But even your average laddering SC player is probably not going to watch till 4am and people that have never played SC will NEVER stay up that late to do so.
Actually, I wouldn't be able to do that anymore as I'm on a work schedule, not a university schedule and the GSL3 just wasted me.
An official restream at a more reasonable hour would be a nice addition to increase it's accessibility without making things very awkward on the Korean end. (Although I did appreciate the change of schedule in this last GSL.)
On January 31 2011 17:22 Zeke50100 wrote: *coughparentscough*. Simply having the transaction online, regardless of price, is a HUGE deterrent for people who would otherwise be glad to spend some money.
Your parent wont let you buy it i take it?
That sucks... As for having the treansactions online i personally dont see the problem, there are so many options for safe and easy online transactions nowadays. I personally use a VISA generator my bank provides (generates a new temporary VISA number with only as much money i want on it).
And back to the topic. I think this really is the best option for them by far, i would suggest they run some other leagues as free for all to draw in audience and keep charging for the regular GSL's. Looking at something like MMA who has grown using PPV it is probably the best option for any niche-sport.
I just have a really hard time beliving that the extra wievers they would get from having it all free would somehow compensate (from thier POV) for the loss on revenue. It is to niche a market to begin with.
I would much rather GOM charge for the streaming services only and release the VODs (albiet at a later date) for free. Streaming is what costs them money, so streaming is what they should be charging for. Hosting VODs is basically free for them, hell they could even use youtube to do it if hosting the data is really that costly. I just don't understand why they're giving away a service that costs them money and charging for a service that doesn't. Obviously it's because nobody would pay for the stream (most foreigners can't watch it anyway), but still. I wish they would be up front about their business model so we the customers can stop guessing about their intentions. It's bullshit!
You people keep mentioning the time factor like its relevant at all.
The US is not the only place where SC2 has an audience and the non-US GSL audience outweighs the US audience by a significant margin given that its an international broadcast.
On January 31 2011 18:40 Dhalphir wrote: You people keep mentioning the time factor like its relevant at all.
The US is not the only place where SC2 has an audience and the non-US GSL audience outweighs the US audience by a significant margin given that its an international broadcast.
source? i would imagine that USA accounts for most of GSL's premium ticket income because we cannot actually be up at 3:00 AM to watch the live stream.
I have a premium ticket, I don't mind. I'm trying to get some friends into it, and its hard when they miss games. But it recognize that GOM needs cash to do this shit.
I feel if they filled the 10min breaks with adds, which I assume they do on the Korean stream, they may be able to reduce/remove vod costs. (Hell, even add adds into the VODs themselves).
I'm guessing before this is possible GOM would have to establish GSL as an attractive medium for advertising, which I (hope) they have or are in the process of doing! Maybe there's some kind of discussion the works as we speak? Here's hoping :D
I saw the first 3 seasons from pirates like most. But since they cut down the price for S4, it was really worth it especially if you want to see all matches.
It would be cool if they had everything for free, but you get some pretty HQ production for a small fee, it's not like exploitation + a tsunami of nerds would break the site.
On January 31 2011 06:30 mprs wrote: I think people can still watch SQ live for free, which isn't too bad...
I think its an awful policy that shows very little understanding of how to grow a sport.
Ironically it's working very well. Consider the following:
- The money used goes directly into improving the stream quality. Tasteless says it at least 5 times per day. (The stream quality, incidentally, has improved significantly since the first season.) - Anyone can watch it (SQ) for free. If that doesn't suit your timezone, that's not GomTV's fault. - This is a better service than anything we've ever seen in the past, especially when you consider prestige, production quality and comparative value for money. - It's growing phenomenally with every passing season. - GomTV employees consult the community directly for feedback and suggestions. The current pricing is a result of that.
I've happily paid for every season thus far and I've enjoyed every cent of it. I can't think of anything else in the world which can provide so many hours of entertainment for so little.
For me it's not really worth it. They would get lots of more views out of me if all the vods were free but then again I don't need it. The games start between 10 and 11am for me and I happen to be in a office where I can watch them live everyday. So what incentive do I have to pay exactly? Because improving a stream is not improving E-SPORTS in my eyes. And I don't care about quality.
But what the customers are essentially paying for is the english commentary, lets be honest. The GSL would still run without Tastosis and I would still watch it and it would still reach an international audience.
That is not to say what they provide is bad. About 52 vods (the grouped ones) have over 100k viewers. Compared to some of the youtube rips who barely reach 1k that's remarkable. A quick search tells me that the Justin.tv rips have a lot more viewers than youtube and go into the 10-50k range.
Again I don't think paying for a good service is bad. But going into breaks and then showing us 5 minutes of a half empty studio is not exactly the sign of marketing geniuses. It's lost screen time.
On January 31 2011 19:59 Jayson X wrote: Again I don't think paying for a good service is bad. But going into breaks and then showing us 5 minutes of a half empty studio is not exactly the sign of marketing geniuses. It's lost screen time.
It's not like they can just pull out sponsors for a global audience... As the awareness of SC2 grows I'm sure they'll find sponsors for the breaks.
Paying a few bucks for such a high quality content is totally worth it. It's by far the best coverage you can get for a SC2 event or eSport in generell. I don't understand why people complain about it as the SQ is even free to watch for everyone (it's not GOMTVs fault that your timezone is a bit "shitty").
It kills any potential newcomers, since they can't watch VOD's and the live stream time is usually too late or too early for other countries in the world.
Steps to watch GOM: 1: Register on the website 2: Download and install GOMTV players 3: tune in a 6O'clock in the morning 4: Log in to the website to be able to start the stream
if you want to watch vods or higher quality stream you have to: 5: Pay for it
Too many steps and it costs money, not the best way to get huge amount of viewers. Additionally the time at which the games starts is really crap for viewers and only unemployed teens can view it at those time, anyone with work or other life responsibilities is going to have a hard time tuning in at those times.
How can people complain about the time. It's in Korea FFS. They suppose to play in the early morning for us in the USA. Get real. It's not all about American viewers.
On January 31 2011 20:38 thehitman wrote: It kills any potential newcomers, since they can't watch VOD's and the live stream time is usually too late or too early for other countries in the world.
Steps to watch GOM: 1: Register on the website 2: Download and install GOMTV players 3: tune in a 6O'clock in the morning 4: Log in to the website to be able to start the stream
if you want to watch vods or higher quality stream you have to: 5: Pay for it
Too many steps and it costs money, not the best way to get huge amount of viewers. Additionally the time at which the games starts is really crap for viewers and only unemployed teens can view it at those time, anyone with work or other life responsibilities is going to have a hard time tuning in at those times.
The first video of every set is free. If newcomers want to watch, it's very easy to. I don't think you even need an account to watch it.
EDIT: Yep, just tested. Even G1 of the finals is free.
The point of this thread isn't "$10 isn't worth it". Not many people will argue that $10 is an extravagant price for the content you're receiving. The concept being presented is that having VODs being a paid-only experience restricts growing interest in the game from a GSL standpoint.
On January 31 2011 20:48 Arckan wrote: The point of this thread isn't "$10 isn't worth it". Not many people will argue that $10 is an extravagant price for the content you're receiving. The concept being presented is that having VODs being a paid-only experience restricts growing interest in the game from a GSL standpoint.
Only for certain time zones though. It's fine for Europeans. Maybe they should change what VODs are free. Instead of first match of every series free, perhaps the tournament up to Ro16 is free.
On January 31 2011 20:38 thehitman wrote: It kills any potential newcomers, since they can't watch VOD's and the live stream time is usually too late or too early for other countries in the world.
Steps to watch GOM: 1: Register on the website 2: Download and install GOMTV players 3: tune in a 6O'clock in the morning 4: Log in to the website to be able to start the stream
if you want to watch vods or higher quality stream you have to: 5: Pay for it
Too many steps and it costs money, not the best way to get huge amount of viewers. Additionally the time at which the games starts is really crap for viewers and only unemployed teens can view it at those time, anyone with work or other life responsibilities is going to have a hard time tuning in at those times.
The first video of every set is free. If newcomers want to watch, it's very easy to. I don't think you even need an account to watch it.
EDIT: Yep, just tested. Even G1 of the finals is free.
That is if you
a) Find their website b) create an account c) download their player d) download their codecs
Of course if newcomers want to watch GSL they will. That's not the point. The point is to introduce more viewers to the GSL expirience so they become customers. The first vod of every set should be on youtube and on the gsl site they should use the youtube player for the first vod aswell. That way they could boost viewernumbers and exposure.
edit: Or I'm doing something wrong because I can't get the vods to work logged out.
I think a large deterrent from paying for GSL coverage (at least in the case of me and my friends) is that the gom player it requires you to use doesn't seem to be very good.
Having to install a player just for the sole purpose of watching GSL seems little excessive and despite how insignificant it may actually be it's still what's been stopping me.
But having said that, I have actually seen some people who are restreaming it use an ip/url in VLC player to watch it but obviously that is still excess work when they could just stream it like any other streaming website.
On January 31 2011 20:48 Arckan wrote: The point of this thread isn't "$10 isn't worth it". Not many people will argue that $10 is an extravagant price for the content you're receiving. The concept being presented is that having VODs being a paid-only experience restricts growing interest in the game from a GSL standpoint.
Only for certain time zones though. It's fine for Europeans. Maybe they should change what VODs are free. Instead of first match of every series free, perhaps the tournament up to Ro16 is free.
It's not fine for Europeans really - anyone with a job or at school is unable to watch.
The OP raises a valid point, I have several friends who I think would enjoy SC2 but it's difficult to get them to watch GSL when there are so many obstacles, minor and major. Sure I could point them to some normal cast on TL but it's far from the same thing.
It's not fine for Europeans really - anyone with a job or at school is unable to watch.
Bet you a lot of the viewers are watching it at work
Anyways, that's a good reason to buy the ticket. HQ VOD's are awesome. And all the "hard steps" people are funny. I would say it's more time consuming and just as hard to go to the nearest grocer and pay for stuff there. Get used to it, stuff on the internet will not be free much longer. We've been heading in that direction for years now.
On January 31 2011 20:48 Arckan wrote: The point of this thread isn't "$10 isn't worth it". Not many people will argue that $10 is an extravagant price for the content you're receiving. The concept being presented is that having VODs being a paid-only experience restricts growing interest in the game from a GSL standpoint.
You guys still don't get it, it's not about if it's worth it or not. Of course it's worth it, I don't think many here disagree. It's about what effect it has on attracting new potential viewers. Register, download and install a probably unheard of player and then pay 15 bucks or whatever it is just to be able to watch a BO3 are no small hurdles for someone new to the scene and esports.
I think its quite a stupid question because if you want Esports to succeed, there has to be some sort of income backing it. Obviously SC2 doesnt have loads of corporate sponsors unlike NFL so every dollar we chip into SC2 counts. Its money to:
- help the stream - help to keep GSL going - create a fancy prize pool for the competitors to be motivated - show the koreans that the SC2 has potential to be HUGE, not only in korea - show that we want Esports to continue to flourish with SC2
I do agree with some of the people here though. GOM could make like previous 2-3 seasons' vods free to play since nobody is gonna buy season 1 tickets. so might aswell release them as vods!
On January 31 2011 06:37 stork4ever wrote: I cant even be bothered to do their sign ups to watch the free content. I followed Sc2 religiously in the beginning but alas it has become too commercialized and flooded with excess commentators. I watch Day9 for SC2 and thats about it.
I will however continue to stay up till 3 am to watch the beesuit
I'm exactly the same, the second i saw that you had to sign up to watch SC2 live i didnt bother. Now later when i really felt like watching the GSL i signed up and the stream was so fucking laggy that i could only watch 3 sets before turning it off out of frustration.
If GOM would allow their free content onto YouTube then they would get more exposure, but the best way to further e-sports would that all their content except a Ultra-quality stream with a chat window implemented would be free. They can't just start taking payments for people to watch live streams of a relatively new game.
I have never gotten into anything that requires me to pay first, so i'm 100% sure that GOM will never get anywhere except for diehard fans paying for their services.
Well, with the amount of tournaments being ran almost non-stop, with the quality on the rise, I find it hard to justify paying for GSL. Look at tournaments like Reddit invitational, IEM, TL opens, all of them churn out more games than GSL can ever hope to. Reddit was perfectly timed with all the hype and intro videos, if GOM could just put together a short intros for the players and put it up on youtube or something, there would be way more interest. TL open is the thing to watch if you want to see up and coming players and these tournaments also dropped most of the stupid maps of the map pool. I find it borderline retarded when you have all the players admitting that playing ZvT on JB/SoW/etc. is like getting kicked in the balls, yet they still force them to do it.
As someone said, they are catering to the hardcore minority and while I consider myself quite hardcore too, I'm more familiar with USA/EU players than the korean ones and they aren't helping things.
It is very cheap for the content you get and really worth it. But I totally understand that it is a bad thing to attract new people. Money instantly discourage 95% of their potential viewers (if they are not able the watch it live that is).
On January 31 2011 06:37 stork4ever wrote: I cant even be bothered to do their sign ups to watch the free content. I followed Sc2 religiously in the beginning but alas it has become too commercialized and flooded with excess commentators. I watch Day9 for SC2 and thats about it.
I will however continue to stay up till 3 am to watch the beesuit
I'm exactly the same, the second i saw that you had to sign up to watch SC2 live i didnt bother. Now later when i really felt like watching the GSL i signed up and the stream was so fucking laggy that i could only watch 3 sets before turning it off out of frustration.
If GOM would allow their free content onto YouTube then they would get more exposure, but the best way to further e-sports would that all their content except a Ultra-quality stream with a chat window implemented would be free. They can't just start taking payments for people to watch live streams of a relatively new game.
I have never gotten into anything that requires me to pay first, so i'm 100% sure that GOM will never get anywhere except for diehard fans paying for their services.
The GOM stream is one of the best out there, you have no right to complain about that.
I agree with paying to watch the current season paying to watch previous seasons doesnt make too sense ....
Edit: even on previous topics people are discussing what the op meant, even I mistook, he is telling about people that arent familiar and wont wake up 4-6-2 am to watch then will never watch a gsl game because it's kinda troublesome to get into it....
Perhaps someone should suggest gom guys do a youtube channel with highlights or free old games (like season 1 or 2)
As a company, GOM has every right to charge whatever they want to for their services. If the prices are outrageous there will simply be no demand for GOM's content and the prices will lower or the company will fail.
It is in their own best interest to charge reasonably for their entertainment. Personally, I think a season of GSL is a much better deal than an alternative for the same cost, say, seeing a movie in the theatres.
I guess what I am saying here is that GOM is in no way "supposed" to further esports. Of course, it is in their best interest if esports really takes off, but they don't have to do anything about attracting new viewers at all.
On January 31 2011 22:07 Occidental wrote: I guess what I am saying here is that GOM is in no way "supposed" to further esports. Of course, it is in their best interest if esports really takes off, but they don't have to do anything about attracting new viewers at all.
Isn't this one of the major reasons why Blizzard chose Gretech rather than allowing Kespa to do what they were doing?
On January 31 2011 22:07 Occidental wrote: As a company, GOM has every right to charge whatever they want to for their services. If the prices are outrageous there will simply be no demand for GOM's content and the prices will lower or the company will fail.
It is in their own best interest to charge reasonably for their entertainment. Personally, I think a season of GSL is a much better deal than an alternative for the same cost, say, seeing a movie in the theatres.
I guess what I am saying here is that GOM is in no way "supposed" to further esports. Of course, it is in their best interest if esports really takes off, but they don't have to do anything about attracting new viewers at all.
What about denying your competitors (i.e: OGN and MBC) from broadcasting e-sports? They can only charge people only because they are preventing others from entering the market and it is damaging Starcraft 2's overall growth
I love watching gsl so far and because of that I find the price _really_ cheap.
maybe gom will release some time the old seasons for free, but I don't care too much - especially because I think the games have gotten better from season to season.
On January 31 2011 22:22 Markus138 wrote: I love watching gsl so far and because of that I find the price _really_ cheap.
maybe gom will release some time the old seasons for free, but I don't care too much - especially because I think the games have gotten better from season to season.
Its about the exposure to people who haven`t watched GSL games yet.
Wow, I can't believe people are complaining that they provide this service to people. With the amount of content and hours of definitely good standard SC2, for $10, why are people complaining, when they also operate a free alternative that is restricted.
I didn't drop the money for GSL 1-3 but I thought "What the hell" with GSL 4. I can honestly say I'm going to probably pay for GSL 5, mainly because of the fact I saw so many entertaining games, and so many hours of good content.
Don't pay the money if you so wish, all I can say is that you're missing out.
I think it's a no brainer! 10 bucks? It's definitely a great deal, and after a while great deals catch on. I don't think it will slow esports. If esports isn't a revenue-generating venture, it won't get the kind of attention we all want it to. There is sooo much free sc2 content out there (even provided by GSL as others have noted with the free sq stream and first vods to get you hooked). Streams, youtube shoutcasts are doing there part, but there is a role for a service that can afford the production quality of GSL: to give the sc2 world a flagship that does consistent justice to the highest current level of play in one, recurring tournament of epic proportions.
On January 31 2011 22:22 Markus138 wrote: I love watching gsl so far and because of that I find the price _really_ cheap.
maybe gom will release some time the old seasons for free, but I don't care too much - especially because I think the games have gotten better from season to season.
Its about the exposure to people who haven`t watched GSL games yet.
People do understand what the OP is trying to say. And the answer people give is: "It doesn't cost a lot of money". I think it is OP and friends who don't understand: 1) economics 2) marketing
Every product out there has marketing (advertising) around it. Everything, from drinks, household products, luxury products and even charity. This is what Tastosis is asking you to do. ADVERTISE. BRAND RECOGNITION.
Every product out there has a price tag. Pepsi, toilet paper, perfume and donating to charity. Now tell me how it "hurts" these companies like Pepsi and Chanel that costumers have to pay for their products. I don't see the difference between a company as GoMTV and Pepsi or Sony Ericsson.
But I don't see you yell: "WOULDN'T IT BE BETTER IF WE GET FREE SMARTPHONES" Then Sony Ericsson will sure be the number one used/known cell phone. Sure, but that isn't how the world works.
Thus, all these answers: "It doesn't cost a lot of money" are VERY valid answers.
P.S.: I am bothered by all these "Why can't everything be free" posts. Seriously, are you all 12 year old? You want E-sports to grow but it has to be free? Then who the F is going to put all the money in to make it grow?
On January 31 2011 16:59 StUfF wrote: Players need to make money. Companies need to make money. Advertisers need to make money.
E-sports is a business in the end.
I don't think they care if they don't attract watchers who don't want to spend on their entertainment - "success" of e-sports is only secondary to making a goddamn living.
No one is challenging that, but asking people to pay for HQ stream sounds like GOM trying to make more money.
I also think that all the microtransactions for seasonal / daily tickets does cost money as well for the whole bureaucracy involved in that. Personally I dont like paying for that when it would be easier if GOM just made a deal with an ad company to provide localized ads for each country like the ESL seems to be able to. It is entirely possible to get these ad sponsors and the ad breaks are in there already, so why waste money and time to force people to do it individually?
As the live stream is free, and the first set of a match up is free, i think they do enough for free to attract new viewers. You got hours of free vods and a free life stream. i would call that sufficiant.
I think however that the payment options for gom are 2 slim for young viewers. In europe it isnt that commen to get a credit card when you are 18. And i can for sure imagine that parents dont like the idea of online payment.
anyway, if you have the option to pay.... i woudnt think twice just do it, you will never get more bang for your buck.
I would personally recommend newcomers to the SC2 scene to start out by watching commentaries by HD/Husky/Day9/other youtube casters. I think Tastosis are awesome and the GSL usually provides me with a lot of entertainment, but their style just assumes that their viewers have some kind of understanding of the game, which a total newcomer wouldnt have. So for me, the 10$ to watch the VODs are definitely worth it, for a guy who just picked up SC2 as his first RTS, not so much.
GOMTV wont get a penny from me, payed for the 3 first seasons, and I regret it, yes, regret it.
HQ Live is horribe, way too much lag for us in Europe VODs are horrible, uses a very poor streamreader, and the amount of time it takes to stream a VOD is also terrible (damage). Only VODs that have been there for 2-3 days that noone watches is being streamed fast. Forget to watch a fresh VOD after coming home from work.
Also notice one thing, its not about the amount of money, Im not greedy, I have money, but I will not be treated like shit.
Why on earth would I pay for this? I just watch the vods free on sc2rep.com anyway.
@OP (and anyone else trying to get other/casual people into the sc2/esports scene via GOM)
Invite people over to watch the games at a good time (pay for it yourself of course).
A few years ago I started throwing UFC parties where I'd buy the PPV fight and my friends (who were not into MMA) would bring some pizza and beer. Turned out well and my friends then started watching fights on their own or at each other's houses (when I had work or wasn't around).
On January 31 2011 22:22 Markus138 wrote: I love watching gsl so far and because of that I find the price _really_ cheap.
maybe gom will release some time the old seasons for free, but I don't care too much - especially because I think the games have gotten better from season to season.
Its about the exposure to people who haven`t watched GSL games yet.
People do understand what the OP is trying to say. And the answer people give is: "It doesn't cost a lot of money". I think it is OP and friends who don't understand: 1) economics 2) marketing
Every product out there has marketing (advertising) around it. Everything, from drinks, household products, luxury products and even charity. This is what Tastosis is asking you to do. ADVERTISE. BRAND RECOGNITION.
Every product out there has a price tag. Pepsi, toilet paper, perfume and donating to charity. Now tell me how it "hurts" these companies like Pepsi and Chanel that costumers have to pay for their products. I don't see the difference between a company as GoMTV and Pepsi or Sony Ericsson.
But I don't see you yell: "WOULDN'T IT BE BETTER IF WE GET FREE SMARTPHONES" Then Sony Ericsson will sure be the number one used/known cell phone. Sure, but that isn't how the world works.
Thus, all these answers: "It doesn't cost a lot of money" are VERY valid answers.
P.S.: I am bothered by all these "Why can't everything be free" posts. Seriously, are you all 12 year old? You want E-sports to grow but it has to be free? Then who the F is going to put all the money in to make it grow?
You just don't seem to get that growth in itself is an important aspect. You're making people pay at a critical phase where e-sports should be about growth.
Facebook and Youtube would not be valued at 50 billion $ / bought out at 10 billion $ had it gone through a sort of payment system GOM is doing. Granted, the streaming is expensive and that is understandable; what is not is preventing MBC and OGN from televising these games.
And I will assure you that there will be NO BRAND RECOGNITION if people constantly cut exposure. How is preventing GSL matches from being uploaded to youtube help GSL grow? We can either stay the small niche audience (which seems to be a lot of people content with) or we can encourage e-sports to gain a certain number of audiences that would later on be a lot more profitable and bigger.
Starcraft 2 has a lot more potential just internet streaming.
[QUOTE]On January 31 2011 23:40 Koshi wrote: [QUOTE]On January 31 2011 22:45 aimaimaim wrote: most people here didn't really get what the OP was trying to convey ..
sigh[/QUOTE] [QUOTE]On January 31 2011 23:13 ShcShc wrote: [QUOTE]On January 31 2011 22:22 Markus138 wrote:
Thus, all these answers: "It doesn't cost a lot of money" are VERY valid answers. [/QUOTE]
No they are irrelevant to the topic. As stated in the OP(!) it isn't about the price, 1 cent or 10 bucks makes little difference it's the act of having to use your credit card and pay a fee which potentially detracts new viewers. Disagree if you want but at least read and understand the OP.
It's a business, they need to make money somehow. I'm curious how many who complain about having to pay for it realise just how expensive bandwidth/servers are on the scale that GOM would have setup for the GSL? It's not free, businesses are around to make money, or at the very least sustain what they have, and it's the business model they have chosen.
Would they have higher viewership if it was free? Sure. Would the servers be able to keep up with the increased demand without money to support it? Not a chance.
So to answer the OP's question I say yes it is a good idea and yes it is necessary.
On January 31 2011 20:38 thehitman wrote: It kills any potential newcomers, since they can't watch VOD's and the live stream time is usually too late or too early for other countries in the world.
Steps to watch GOM: 1: Register on the website 2: Download and install GOMTV players 3: tune in a 6O'clock in the morning 4: Log in to the website to be able to start the stream
if you want to watch vods or higher quality stream you have to: 5: Pay for it
Too many steps and it costs money, not the best way to get huge amount of viewers. Additionally the time at which the games starts is really crap for viewers and only unemployed teens can view it at those time, anyone with work or other life responsibilities is going to have a hard time tuning in at those times.
The first video of every set is free. If newcomers want to watch, it's very easy to. I don't think you even need an account to watch it.
EDIT: Yep, just tested. Even G1 of the finals is free.
That is if you
a) Find their website b) create an account c) download their player d) download their codecs
Of course if newcomers want to watch GSL they will. That's not the point. The point is to introduce more viewers to the GSL expirience so they become customers. The first vod of every set should be on youtube and on the gsl site they should use the youtube player for the first vod aswell. That way they could boost viewernumbers and exposure.
edit: Or I'm doing something wrong because I can't get the vods to work logged out.
for VODs you only need a) and b) (assuming you have a recent flash player already installed, wich most people have). I didn't try it, but if I remember correctly, you could sign in with your facebook acc, so hardly any trouble at all from what I understood.
On February 01 2011 00:21 crappen wrote: Also notice one thing, its not about the amount of money, Im not greedy, I have money, but I will not be treated like shit.
Why are you so bitter? The service doesn't work well for you so you shouldn't pay for it. Everyone is happy.
You make it sound like GOM isn't clicking the "Provide great service to crappen" button just to be douches. It's obviously not the case. No need to be bitter about it.
On February 01 2011 00:25 Longshank wrote: No they are irrelevant to the topic. As stated in the OP(!) it isn't about the price, 1 cent or 10 bucks makes little difference it's the act of having to use your credit card and pay a fee which potentially detracts new viewers. Disagree if you want but at least read and understand the OP.
Are you deliberate stupid or what? IT IS ABOUT THE PRICE. Is it about potatoes? Or tomatoes? Is it about personal hygiene? Is it about Jinro his sexy face? NO. IT IS ABOUT THE PRICE. He wants the content to be free. THUS, the price to be 0.
GOM seems to acknowledge this problem too because they cut the ticket prices last season, but the actual procedure of making us pay (even just 1 cent) seems that it would cut GSL exposure. Its kind of like "What if Teamliquid made us pay 1$ to be able to see its contents?". Its absolutely worth it (hell, Il go as far as 50 bucks), but it wouldn't be anywhere near the most popular SC site as it is today.
The problem: The price. The Solution from GomTV: Cut the price.
The problem OP has: The price. The solution OP offers: Remove the price.
The problem GomTV has with OP his solution: They are running a company. The problem OP has with GoMTV their solution: Not everybody wants/is able to see great content for a price that is worth it.
The problem with OP his solution in my eyes: GoMTV will have to ask for bankruptcy within a year. The problem with GoMTV their solution in my eyes: Young people are not able to see this great content GoMTV provides.
I think I understand the OP, I understand GoMTV and I understand you.
But I do not understand the 150 posts in this thread that say: "OMG why isn't it free" "OMG all you people who think this is about the price, it isn't about the price."
EDIT: The OP wants this discussion ---> Isn't it sad that some people can't watch GoMTV in HD because they ask money?
GOMTV wont get a penny from me, payed for the 3 first seasons, and I regret it, yes, regret it.
HQ Live is horribe, way too much lag for us in Europe
S4 had no lag at all. I had the same issue as you the previous 3 seasons, but it's fixed during S4 for me. (Norway) They are improving it, so don't take the performance of the first seasons as an example of how it is.
There is so much free SC2 content out there, with amazing community support from Day9 and others...
Personally, I am very appreciative of GOMTV and the GSL. The value is insanely cheap in terms of hours of entertainment... and in terms of quality I get really nice streaming, and the VODS are totally solid. Might not be the same for everyone, but that is the beauty of it: It's not the only game in town. Tons of other free content, great casters, great players.
I'm sure they will adjust their business model as needed, to become/remain profitable.
I don't believe there is a mandate that GOMTV is responsible for growing eSport,
if one day there is global advertising where someone is going to pay GOM for commercial time then they can make it free. For now think about it like you are watching cable tv or renting a movie. It is entertainment that has a demand and a price to produce. GOM needs to furnish a building and make fancy booths and provide utilities and keep a high quality stream up. Also they have to pay Tasteless and Artosis and John and buy equipment to keep the show running.
So if you do not want to pay for the highest quality games then don't. You can go watch the crap people like Husky put on youtube for free or you can pay a little bit and get a highly produced high level commentary from some of the best players in the world.
You get what you pay for really. If you want terrible commentary from Husky you get it for free, if you want high quality quality with high level players you get it from GOM.
(yes i know Day[9] gives is stuff away for free but he is not a company that is running a tournament monthly basis)
Point of the op : Will gom get people that arent from esports scene to watch and pay their stream ? Answer : of course not
What is the solution ? -Gom do something to attract newcomers -Free esport scene grow up with western tourneys so people will end up interested in gsl ....
a simple trending topics is no use with the current system to watch streams from gom, from 100 persons completely new to esports, probably 99.5 wont be bothered to register, pay, etc etc....
Yes, more people will watch if all the streams were free, just as if our coaches coached for free, they'd have more students, and if cars were free more people would drive cars.
But, if the streams were free, GOM.tv might not put any effort into offering them at all. If our coaches coached for free, they probably wouldn't bother because their entire lives would be consumed by coaching with nothing coming to them for their efforts. If cars were free more people would drive them except there wouldn't be more cars to drive because nobody would make cars for free.
I get that there is a mentality today that everything on the Internet should be free. But the reality is, GOM.tv is a business like any other, they have to generate revenue like any other, and they have to weigh how much to charge to still maximize viewership while maintaining a solid revenue stream.
If I'm a business owner and I want to make X profit, I charge what I can for my product than sell Y amount to make X profit. I charge as much as the market will allow in order for that equation to make X (or more) profit. If I want to increase market share, I may temporarily lower my price and even operate at a loss for a while, but at the end of the day I want to make a profit. The fact that their SQ stream is free shows that they are still interested in growing their fan base.
In a nutshell, I've no issue at all with this business model, and would question the maturity and business accumen of anybody who DOES question it.
i dont get it way so many people are willing to pay for content these days. as soon as its on the internet people pay for it.
there were numerous attempts to bring payTV to the broad masses, but all failed (at least here in germany), but as soon as it is in on the internet you start to pay for anything? totally crazy.
im probably of a too old generation, i also dont pay for iphone apps and mp3 downloads or porn or whatever you guys pay for on a regular basis, but i only bought a season ticket once and its not worth it and i will never again. now maybe if the casters wouldnt be so annoying and egocentric in their views, but since things stay like they are i cant be fooled into paying again.
i guess its just easier to let people pay as long as they dont mind, then add sponsors, double the money and then make advertisement as soon as you have some numbers to show. some good numbers ofc. which probably arent there. thats why we still have to pay.
On January 31 2011 16:59 StUfF wrote: Players need to make money. Companies need to make money. Advertisers need to make money.
E-sports is a business in the end.
I don't think they care if they don't attract watchers who don't want to spend on their entertainment - "success" of e-sports is only secondary to making a goddamn living.
No one is challenging that, but asking people to pay for HQ stream sounds like GOM trying to make more money.
I also think that all the microtransactions for seasonal / daily tickets does cost money as well for the whole bureaucracy involved in that. Personally I dont like paying for that when it would be easier if GOM just made a deal with an ad company to provide localized ads for each country like the ESL seems to be able to. It is entirely possible to get these ad sponsors and the ad breaks are in there already, so why waste money and time to force people to do it individually?
ESL uses Octoshape to cover the bandwidth, which pisses a lot of people off.
Paying to watch starcraft is like buying one of those cable packages for hockey or football. Sure it costs less than those, but over time, it adds up, and the seasons continue throughout the year, so in the end it costs just as much. Only really hardcore fans will do it. I don't think the current GSL has what it takes to make me pay to watch it, and this is a conclusion I got after paying for GSL open 2 and 3. Honestly, both the korean and the english commentary for the GSL is wayyyyyy subpar compared to OGN for MBCGame commentaries(even if you don't understand korean, you can still feel the energy and the enthusiasm), and the lack of team based league makes it bland.
On a more personal note though, I like SC2 more as a gamer, but I like SC1 more as a spectator, so that might bias my judgements, but I still don't think it would be worth it to pay even if it was just as good as the sc1 broadcasts.
The past pages have some recurring themes, well, they almost exclusively have these themes coming back: - It hinders community growth - They could rake money from putting it on youtube/some streaming service that has partner deals or simply because it would cut the costs of providing it - they should just insert ads - they should go find sponsors - it is/it isn't like regular television - my parents won't pay for me
Community First of all, it doesn't make sense to view it from your personal perspective. Sure, you want the scene to grow big, to have the most content available in the easiest way possible etcetc. But gomtv is a privately owned company with commercial goals. Their bottom-line isn't number of people in the sc community or anything like that. It's about making money, having a sustainable business.
This basically means that the community size, the number of GSL fans isn't relevant to them as long as it lowers their profits. Their efforts in a gom house are in that light actually a really nice move, since we're most likely not the primary source of income. Even better, it's probably a signal they want to develop their foreign activities and make it become significant enough.
Besides, they certainly don't hurt the sc2 community overal: they do provide free stream (the finals are always during the weekends, so if you're really curious about GSL, you can most likely watch at least those), the first VOD is always free. Artosis has several matches of Koreans on his channel. (for those mainly interested in Korean scene as a whole and not specifically the GSL) And i doubt that there is any sizeable number of players who first hears about the Korean scene before getting to know anything about the foreign proscene.
youtube/ustream and similar Obviously, if they'd provide the content this way, they can't charge for it. The only way to make money out of it is by the partnership deals most of these offer. However, this has severe downsides: Those advertising systems basically pop-up ads somewhere on the screen, but they're not at all incorporated in the show. So they have a very hard time grabbing your attention. The value of these is obviously way way lower then integrated advertising like Tasteless giving a big kiss to Sony or Tastosis bringing a regular toast with their Pespi drinks. Even simple banners are more effective when in the show, because at least they're in the area your eyes are paying attention to.
Just to give an idea of the value of these ads you get to see everywhere: those centrals pay you around 1$ for 1000 views... (there is some variation according to network, how interesting/well defined your audience is, the aggresive nature of the ad etcetc, but it still looks rather shitty, no?)
Also, especially in the case of youtube, you're negotiating with a very strong company. They totally don't need you. So i wouldn't be too optimistic of how much of the money your views generate are sent through to you.
Last, it's rather hard to develop the needed contacts, expertise and reputation to actually get into advertising/sponsorships yourself later on.
just insert ads Quite similar to above, but while still streaming themselves: it has the main issues of above, except for lack of negotiating power. Downside is, they would need to adapt the GOMplayer and/or the VOD's to allow for their advertisment central partner to feed it ads which will then be shown.
Finding ads themselves isn't really feasible, but i'll explain below
Sponsorships This is what really rakes in the money, since you can offer your sponsors a lot: - airing time - good placement of banners/products - mentions/endorsements - putting their name on/under the event (not only literally ofc) - possibility for extra activities (like the lottery at the end, but there are certainly wider opportunities, like having players in your ads or on your package or some special signing sessions or whatever those creative marketing guys can come up with)
Basically what they already do for their Korean market. (and i have the impression they could easily drive up the intensity a bit if they wanted)
But GOM being a Korean Company and the foreign market being rather diffuse (and worldwide ofc) implies 2 significant barriers: 1. They have no expertise with dealing with companies who're mainly active abroad, i wouldn't be surpised if John was the only guy they have who speaks fluent English and has marketing/communication skills/experience. (and is familiar with foreign culture on top of that, nice resume in fact! :p) So it's very hard to reach out to companies interested in a worldwide sponsorship. 2. Because it's for the whole foreign scene, you need a company who's actually active in most of the world so the number of relevant viewers remains high. Now you might think that there are enough companies active around the globe (hell, their current sponsor is like Sony), but it's more complicated: - Quite some multinationals actually tailor their image to local markets. (in extreme cases, they may even be hurting their image in some places if they accepted) - Many multinationals use a local strategy for their marketing, where local departments are in control of marketing for their region.
Also, it wouldn't be that easy to have a second main sponsor for the foreign market integrated in the show, besides the one for the Korean market. Ofc, if it's really a global sponsor, you don't have the split. But then again, the value one gets for the Korean market alone is (at least right now) so large that it's still their main selling point to anyone they'd partner with.
television well, their are common themes: it's presented as a tv-show. and just as for television: if you want to watch it afterwards, you have to pay. (well, at least in Belgium :p and i dont' know how it is for channels that charge you anyhow in order to be available) okay, the hours are bad, but it's korean television. :p if you're favorite sitcom was on korean television, you would have exactly the same problem, but probably wouldn't think of it as something they should fix.
ofc, there are differences, mainly: there is no 24/7 cycle at the gom stream, so they can actually restream if they wanted to. and it's over the internet, allowing a bit more flexibility. also note that you don't get commercial-free television for free. (and God, if i had to choose between an mlg-like commercial cycle and paying, no way i'd keep my wallet locked. that's ofc personal opinion)
But i'm in fact not that interested in this comparison, only mentionned it because it kept popping back up.
Parents Won't Pay Really, consider the following: 1. you can pay with paypal. 2. you can put money on your paypal account without any kind of card in your possession, all you need is a bank account. (only the account, so again, no banking card or anything) 3. all banks offer free accounts below 16 years of age and most extend that up to 25 years of age. (well, again, i'm only sure about that in Belgium )
Even if you would be in the rare situation of not even having a bank account, i find it hard to imagine a parent opposing to you putting your pocket money on an account instead of a wallet or below the matress or whatever.
Really, remember that. Paypal is that awesome. (i don't know if there was an age registration limitation for paypal, but common, it's not like they'll go after you if you lie on that, as long as you don't do illegal stuff with your paypal account)
ps: please consider the post as a whole, don't go berserk on one point, ignoring all the others like they were never made.
On February 01 2011 00:21 crappen wrote: Also notice one thing, its not about the amount of money, Im not greedy, I have money, but I will not be treated like shit.
Why are you so bitter? The service doesn't work well for you so you shouldn't pay for it. Everyone is happy.
You make it sound like GOM isn't clicking the "Provide great service to crappen" button just to be douches. It's obviously not the case. No need to be bitter about it.
Not sure why I am bitter, Im usually not bitter about anything. The first 3 seasons I followed sc2 a lot, but GOMTV was simply not working properly, and it was pain to watch LQ. It just seems they spent more time on shutting down HQ youtube VODS and restreams then fixing the issue towards europe (which according to people have been fixed in S4, so that is a good sign). So yes, I had some hard time following S1-3.
I question the move they made of making people pay at this stage of the growth of SC2 as an esport.
honestly, if it were any other issue, id just be like F off man not paying 1 cent, especially with the nice SQ stream. But since its Starcraft2, a game I would personally like to see gain E-fame and spread worldwide, I would support gom with a 10 buck ticket, especially since Hey, its only 10 bucks. And if its something you actually want to improve, like stream quality/Vods. Why not.
On January 31 2011 06:30 StarBrift wrote: It absolutely cuts exposure for the GSL. But it's the path they've chosen to go as worldwide streaming is not free and they have to finance it somehow. Hopefully they can get sponsors abroad and have a high quality free stream + vods in the future.
GomTV should just do a low speed korean stream, then allow restream. Fans will take care of the rest.
Pay per View = Lower viewer counts, but Gom makes more profit in the short term.
Free per View = Higher Viewer counts, less profit in the short term, (more profit in the long term from sponsors and advertisers though)
obviously GOM is worried about making money right now, and has lost sight of the bigger picture imo.
Also, to those who say, 10$/month is nothing, I beg to differ, 10$/mo is a LOT. Especially for a broke college student, not all of us have great jobs, or have parents with deep pockets who like to spoil their kids rotten with whatever they want. 10$/mo is almost as much as I pay for my cell phone bill, It's 1/4 of how much I pay for my Internet. 20$/year sounds like a fair price to me but 10$/mo is ludicrous.(and isn't it 15$/mo for gom anyways?) If I can get billions of hours of free content(youtube, hulu etc) and thousands of hours of free starcraft2 content by paying 40$/mo for internet, I shouldn't have to pay 10$/mo for a few GSL games. GOM would do better in the long term if they get more viewers, and make them watch a couple advertisements rather than trying to make all the viewers pay a fee, This business model has been reproduced all over the internet. Saying that the only way they can do it is by charging a fee is just simply not true.
The way I see it, if you're not working you can probably arrange your schedule to view the live stream.
If you are working you can probably afford the $10 for what amounts to 15-20+ hours of VODS.
I'll agree that the price cuts down on their audience, but it's ultimately GOM's decision to go with this business model. Someone in charge there ultimately believes that the money earned from subs is equal to or greater than the additional advertising revenue if the streams & VODS were free to watch, and I won't sit here pretending to know more about their business than they do.
On February 01 2011 02:19 Heimatloser wrote: [...] i dont get it way so many people are willing to pay for content these days. [...]
Because contrary to what most of the internet generation believes, having access to the internet does not equal accessing everything for free. A decade of unregulated downloads, P2P and torrenting created that mindset. And I'm pretty sure you're wrong if you speak of "so many people"; most internet users, even those with a healthy wallet or paypal account are cheapskates with afore mentioned attitude.
If GomTV wouldn't charge, it wouldn't exist in the form we know it today. Maybe there'd be a league just financed by sponsoring, but the quality would be abysmal and the future outlook bleak at best.
------- This is all off-topic, of course. Regarding the OP and the question asked there: I think we should be happy there's quality SC2 content at all. It's not as if GomTV had an unique position in a saturated market; they're basically holding the monopoly on high level SC2 league play with streams, VODs and commentary included.
Without GOM, we wouldn't be talking about the possibilty of introducing new people to the scene at all, because there would be no scene to begin with. Free, accessible content as a niche will follow once there's a whole market for this and some competition for GOM, but until then we should respect the pioneer work they're doing for the SC2 scene.
If gomtv was smart, they would use youtube.com/gomtv and upload the VODs there; they could eventually make a killing through youtube partnership, and the increased exposure they would get would be immense. But it would never happen because they aren't that tied to the foreigner market.
I watch sports for free on tv. I watch starcraft for free on the internet. Why would I pay. Yes it might be the ultimate starcraft... but if its so good then they should get sponsors and advertising when they get huge hits from how popular it is and make their money the traditional way. Streams can have adverts.... in between games can be adverts. Advertising is how sports run. Teams have sponsors and companies pay to advertise during breaks etc.
Esports shouldn't be any different if they let it grow. The cost to watch just chokes the enthusiasm of a non existent fan base. The whole facebook thing... its not cool if it costs.
On February 01 2011 03:41 Iplaythings wrote: You wont win any diehard broodwar fans over by declining their favorite sport and then wanting them to pay for your shit that took away my passion.
Thats my look on it, I can enjoy sc2 matches but if they want me to pay for something like that.
They do it the wrong way around. I'd pay if I had to, to watch BW. I wouldn't if I wasnt allready inside the community.
The SQ live is unstable as hell and has a viewer limmit to prevent an allready existing lag, but if they decrease viewers to STILL decreasing the lag.
I never understood why GSL didn't restream itself into multiple SQ's, that would fix so much of the lag...
That's not true since like...season 2 ? for viewer limit (perhaps season 3) And the stream being unstable is very excessive. For GSL january, we had 2 laggy days, and the lag is like 15-20 minutes before being fixed. I understand this is computer and some people will always have problems no matter what. But the problems you mention makes it look like you quickly read 2 or 3 pages of season 1 live report thread, saw some posts, and 4 months later that you use those posts to say it sucks ><
tldr : there is no viewer limit for free stream for at least 2 seasons, same for stream problem.
I agree on the first part of your post anyway, but I guess GOM wants to deliver the best players and the best games. I imagine they see people coming into sc with free content, and the people who get into the game and want to see the best it has to offer will pay for it.
On February 01 2011 04:02 Bobgrimly wrote: I watch sports for free on tv. I watch starcraft for free on the internet.
Actually for most sporting events you DO pay through your cable subscription. Your provider pays for the rights to air the channels, and those channels pay for the rights to air the sporting event.
Paying for the internet is not analogous in the slightest.
While I do agree that free sq vods and premium hd vods are a better buisness model, with the sq vods having adverts so it's a win win situation.
But the same people who say "well they should have ads in the vods" are the same people who run adblock. Ofc they could put the ads right into the video feed, but that would be awfull and limited.
I don't believe there is a mandate that GOMTV is responsible for growing eSport,
Precisely. I think this is the point that needs to be hammered into people heads.
People who know nothing about professional StarCraft are more likely to start watching it through local tournaments. That's what they'll hear about. That's what their friends will link them to.
The GSL is a different beast. It's Korean, which for most people who know nothing about professional StarCraft means that it's foreign to them. Yes, there's English commentary, but that doesn't change the fact that it's clearly foreign. That presents a barrier to entry, one that is best bypassed by interest. That is, not being someone who knows nothing about professional StarCraft.
The GSL is not, and will not be, a gateway into watching StarCraft. Even if it's free.
On February 01 2011 03:49 TheGiftedApe wrote: The answer here is obvious imo:
Pay per View = Lower viewer counts, but Gom makes more profit in the short term.
Free per View = Higher Viewer counts, less profit in the short term, (more profit in the long term from sponsors and advertisers though)
I think there's a lot of assumptions in that post that you're just glossing over. What are GOM's total viewership on their VODs? I'm at work but I'd assume a Ro16 game gets somewhere between 30,000 - 70,000 views. How many views do you think it would get if it was free?
Now, do you think the costs associated with streaming content for free to those users could be supported by completely untargeted, global ads? And do you think they would end up further ahead this year if they went that route, or stuck with the $10 / season model? At what point does the profit / season cross over that threshold? I don't think it's as cut and dry as "more profit in the long term".
The foreign market isn't even on a sponsor's radar, so we can ignore that. Advertising is of course something GOM is looking at. But I don't think you can just say "GOM, if you took a loss to provide free content now, you'd make a 50% return by 2012." It's not that simple. It's a pretty huge risk. I think GOM is playing it right.
i just now got off the site prepaying for the gsl-tl and omg 4.99! i swear the gsl is going to have my money every month, so much content its just so worth it. to the point about it not helping the popularity and not spreading the word because it is pay to view is a good argument but world wide streaming like this cant be cheap. maybe one day with more sponsors i hope but until then ill gladly give them my money.
On February 01 2011 03:49 TheGiftedApe wrote: obviously GOM is worried about making money right now, and has lost sight of the bigger picture imo.
If making money right now is the difference between being able to continue as an enterprise and not, it would seem to me that is the bigger picture.
If they had unlimited capital and could defer making money on what they're doing for an indefinite time, I'm sure they could do a lot of things differently that might greatly enhance the popularity of their tournament.
Honestly; I have never been eager to spend money to watch the GSL. It's not because I hate paying for it, or I don't like GOMtv, or anything like that. It's the fact that I get the same entertainment from watching HuK and Kiwikaki videos being casted and put on youtube. GSL can't really offer viewers much since there isn't a huge skill gap between GSL and other top tournaments.
I'd like to watch Starcraft for the same reason I watch football. I'd like to watch insane micro as two players go into 300 APM-mode and duke it out like absolute ballers. Crazy strategies that work because they timed it within a split-second of perfection. If a pro could make me get on starcraft and try what he's done, I'd pay to see that. I want inspired by the "professionals", and frankly; I don't see much of it in the GSL.
I don't see a problem. You pay like 20$ for a premium service and those who don't get the free service. Oh jesus, heaven forbid trying to give E sports an economy.
On February 01 2011 03:49 TheGiftedApe wrote: The answer here is obvious imo:
Pay per View = Lower viewer counts, but Gom makes more profit in the short term.
Free per View = Higher Viewer counts, less profit in the short term, (more profit in the long term from sponsors and advertisers though)
I think there's a lot of assumptions in that post that you're just glossing over. What are GOM's total viewership on their VODs? I'm at work but I'd assume a Ro16 game gets somewhere between 30,000 - 70,000 views. How many views do you think it would get if it was free?
Now, do you think the costs associated with streaming content for free to those users could be supported by completely untargeted, global ads? And do you think they would end up further ahead this year if they went that route, or stuck with the $10 / season model? At what point does the profit / season cross over that threshold? I don't think it's as cut and dry as "more profit in the long term".
The foreign market isn't even on a sponsor's radar, so we can ignore that. Advertising is of course something GOM is looking at. But I don't think you can just say "GOM, if you took a loss to provide free content now, you'd make a 50% return by 2012." It's not that simple. It's a pretty huge risk. I think GOM is playing it right.
Why don't Blizzard just pay for the streaming cost? It's probably less than 1% of their WoW income.
On February 01 2011 03:49 TheGiftedApe wrote: The answer here is obvious imo:
Pay per View = Lower viewer counts, but Gom makes more profit in the short term.
Free per View = Higher Viewer counts, less profit in the short term, (more profit in the long term from sponsors and advertisers though)
I think there's a lot of assumptions in that post that you're just glossing over. What are GOM's total viewership on their VODs? I'm at work but I'd assume a Ro16 game gets somewhere between 30,000 - 70,000 views. How many views do you think it would get if it was free?
Now, do you think the costs associated with streaming content for free to those users could be supported by completely untargeted, global ads? And do you think they would end up further ahead this year if they went that route, or stuck with the $10 / season model? At what point does the profit / season cross over that threshold? I don't think it's as cut and dry as "more profit in the long term".
The foreign market isn't even on a sponsor's radar, so we can ignore that. Advertising is of course something GOM is looking at. But I don't think you can just say "GOM, if you took a loss to provide free content now, you'd make a 50% return by 2012." It's not that simple. It's a pretty huge risk. I think GOM is playing it right.
Why don't Blizzard just pay for the streaming cost? It's probably less than 1% of their WoW income.
Why doesent Blizzard pay for my heating and electric bill too so i can watch GSL? Blizzard is a company separate from GomTV. I cant believe you actually posted that.
A lot of you are assuming that if they don't charge then they will "make more money in the long run". This is based on.... a complete guess? Pretty sure nobody on earth has a clue how much Gom would make on advertising in the future and even if you did you still don't have a clue how much they are making now so it sounds like you just don't want to pay a few bucks to watch. Not that there's anything wrong with that, just sayin'.
And Blizz probably makes more off of WoW every five minutes than the streaming costs are for the GSL... but obviously they'll never pay for that (and they shouldn't).
If I can get billions of hours of free content(youtube, hulu etc) and thousands of hours of free starcraft2 content by paying 40$/mo for internet, I shouldn't have to pay 10$/mo for a few GSL games.
You can watch the games live for free. If you want the luxury of watching them whenever you want you have to pay. You are renting storage and web hosting. Was your hard drive free?
Here's the deal. I would love to watch the GSL. Really. I would. If the Stream aired at a reasonable time, I would watch it then.
The Stream does not air at a reasonable time. It airs at 2AM where I am. I love watching Starcraft - but I cannot stay up till 2AM to do so.
I can't afford to pay the money for GOMTV services. And if I could, why would I? Huk is free. Day9 is Free.
So I cannot watch the GSL. This is disappointing. I would like to watch the GSL. I would like to share the GSL with my friends, who might get further interested in SC2.
Look, all I'm asking for, at the very least, is the SQ to restream at a reasonable time. That or free SQ Vods.
I really would like to watch the GSL. But I cannot. GomTV will not get any money from me, nor will they get the word spread.
I'd happily sit through ads to watch free vods, but I just can't justify the cost. Heck, I don't even pay for normal television, so I'm not going to pay for this.
If I can get billions of hours of free content(youtube, hulu etc) and thousands of hours of free starcraft2 content by paying 40$/mo for internet, I shouldn't have to pay 10$/mo for a few GSL games.
You can watch the games live for free. If you want the luxury of watching them whenever you want you have to pay. You are renting storage and web hosting. Was your hard drive free?
Consider this argument: Youtube is free because it's done right.
If I don't catch GSL late, I don't watch it - because of that I don't care so much about the results because usually, I can't see all the games. I don't even know how much it is - I just think it's silly that I'd have to pay.
On February 01 2011 03:49 TheGiftedApe wrote: The answer here is obvious imo:
Pay per View = Lower viewer counts, but Gom makes more profit in the short term.
Free per View = Higher Viewer counts, less profit in the short term, (more profit in the long term from sponsors and advertisers though)
obviously GOM is worried about making money right now, and has lost sight of the bigger picture imo.
Also, to those who say, 10$/month is nothing, I beg to differ, 10$/mo is a LOT. Especially for a broke college student, not all of us have great jobs, or have parents with deep pockets who like to spoil their kids rotten with whatever they want. 10$/mo is almost as much as I pay for my cell phone bill, It's 1/4 of how much I pay for my Internet. 20$/year sounds like a fair price to me but 10$/mo is ludicrous.(and isn't it 15$/mo for gom anyways?) If I can get billions of hours of free content(youtube, hulu etc) and thousands of hours of free starcraft2 content by paying 40$/mo for internet, I shouldn't have to pay 10$/mo for a few GSL games. GOM would do better in the long term if they get more viewers, and make them watch a couple advertisements rather than trying to make all the viewers pay a fee, This business model has been reproduced all over the internet. Saying that the only way they can do it is by charging a fee is just simply not true.
First off, GOMtv provides both the Pay per View and Free per View models for their live stream. The difference? Better quality (higher screen resolution) if you pay.
As for VODs, if $10 is too much for you, get a job at McDonalds. Even at minimum wage, you'll generate enough income for a couple year's worth of GSL content within a week. You make $10 out to be something only "rich folk" have, which is an absolute joke. If you don't want to cough up chump change for lifetime access to hundreds of hours of pro-level StarCraft 2, then either watch the free SQ stream or stick to your free youtube/hulu/whatever content and don't watch the GSL.
On February 01 2011 06:31 MasterFwiffo wrote: Here's the deal. I would love to watch the GSL. Really. I would. If the Stream aired at a reasonable time, I would watch it then.
The Stream does not air at a reasonable time. It airs at 2AM where I am. I love watching Starcraft - but I cannot stay up till 2AM to do so.
I can't afford to pay the money for GOMTV services. And if I could, why would I? Huk is free. Day9 is Free.
So I cannot watch the GSL. This is disappointing. I would like to watch the GSL. I would like to share the GSL with my friends, who might get further interested in SC2.
Look, all I'm asking for, at the very least, is the SQ to restream at a reasonable time. That or free SQ Vods.
I really would like to watch the GSL. But I cannot. GomTV will not get any money from me, nor will they get the word spread.
And that is hurting E-Sports.
Okay, but who is at fault here? GOM for not giving you a service for free in the name of ESports, or you, for not working a job equivalent of $10 per month in the name of ESports?
It's easy to demonize someone "in the name of ESports"...
On February 01 2011 03:49 TheGiftedApe wrote: The answer here is obvious imo:
Pay per View = Lower viewer counts, but Gom makes more profit in the short term.
Free per View = Higher Viewer counts, less profit in the short term, (more profit in the long term from sponsors and advertisers though)
I think there's a lot of assumptions in that post that you're just glossing over. What are GOM's total viewership on their VODs? I'm at work but I'd assume a Ro16 game gets somewhere between 30,000 - 70,000 views. How many views do you think it would get if it was free?
Now, do you think the costs associated with streaming content for free to those users could be supported by completely untargeted, global ads? And do you think they would end up further ahead this year if they went that route, or stuck with the $10 / season model? At what point does the profit / season cross over that threshold? I don't think it's as cut and dry as "more profit in the long term".
The foreign market isn't even on a sponsor's radar, so we can ignore that. Advertising is of course something GOM is looking at. But I don't think you can just say "GOM, if you took a loss to provide free content now, you'd make a 50% return by 2012." It's not that simple. It's a pretty huge risk. I think GOM is playing it right.
Why don't Blizzard just pay for the streaming cost? It's probably less than 1% of their WoW income.
Why doesent Blizzard pay for my heating and electric bill too so i can watch GSL? Blizzard is a company separate from GomTV. I cant believe you actually posted that.
Blizzard sponsors the GSL, they specifically partnered with GOM for this tournament. Michael Morhaime even gave a speech at the opening ceremony for season 1. Clearly there is an intimate relationship between Blizzard and GOM, and I personally think Blizzard should take some responsibility for this. They completely ignored BW when it was released and we got free VODs of pro games, free replays and even though it was mostly devoid of English commentary, at least it was free. I'd rather have that, but that's a personal opinion. It doesn't take a lot of knowledge of the game to enjoy it with no sound. That's how we had to enjoy e-sports in the first plays before youtube- with replays alone.
Blizzard needs to man up and respond, regardless of what GOM decides to do.
To any college/university student: Take 1 night off from partying, BAM! 2 months of GSL right there. I'm a broke ass student too, I don't get handouts from my parents, but $10 is really not *that* hard to come by.. Volunteer for a psychology experiment, they often pay subjects $10-15 for an hour of your time :p
On February 01 2011 06:31 MasterFwiffo wrote: I really would like to watch the GSL. But I cannot. GomTV will not get any money from me, nor will they get the word spread.
And that is hurting E-Sports.
I think what really hurts e-sports is a certain subset of the community's refusal to support it monetarily, and then refuse to spread the word when they get hit with the realization that sports industries -- electronic or not -- cost money to operate.
If I can get billions of hours of free content(youtube, hulu etc) and thousands of hours of free starcraft2 content by paying 40$/mo for internet, I shouldn't have to pay 10$/mo for a few GSL games.
You can watch the games live for free. If you want the luxury of watching them whenever you want you have to pay. You are renting storage and web hosting. Was your hard drive free?
Consider this argument: Youtube is free because it's done right.
If I don't catch GSL late, I don't watch it - because of that I don't care so much about the results because usually, I can't see all the games. I don't even know how much it is - I just think it's silly that I'd have to pay.
Youtube is free because it is another business model because it is another market. How much content was produced by Youtube when it was the size of GomTV? Please people...
On February 01 2011 06:31 MasterFwiffo wrote: Here's the deal. I would love to watch the GSL. Really. I would. If the Stream aired at a reasonable time, I would watch it then.
The Stream does not air at a reasonable time. It airs at 2AM where I am. I love watching Starcraft - but I cannot stay up till 2AM to do so.
I can't afford to pay the money for GOMTV services. And if I could, why would I? Huk is free. Day9 is Free.
So I cannot watch the GSL. This is disappointing. I would like to watch the GSL. I would like to share the GSL with my friends, who might get further interested in SC2.
Look, all I'm asking for, at the very least, is the SQ to restream at a reasonable time. That or free SQ Vods.
I really would like to watch the GSL. But I cannot. GomTV will not get any money from me, nor will they get the word spread.
And that is hurting E-Sports.
Okay, but who is at fault here? GOM for not giving you a service for free in the name of ESports, or you, for not working a job equivalent of $10 per month in the name of ESports?
It's easy to demonize someone "in the name of ESports"...
On February 01 2011 03:49 TheGiftedApe wrote: The answer here is obvious imo:
Pay per View = Lower viewer counts, but Gom makes more profit in the short term.
Free per View = Higher Viewer counts, less profit in the short term, (more profit in the long term from sponsors and advertisers though)
obviously GOM is worried about making money right now, and has lost sight of the bigger picture imo.
You need money to make money, if they don't have a decent stream people won't watch anyway, and they won't get sponsors. (If you haven't noticed, there are at times a bunch of complaining regarding the quality of the free SQ stream).
If they have alot of viewers on the other hand, sponsors will be willing to pay more.
On February 01 2011 03:49 TheGiftedApe wrote: Also, to those who say, 10$/month is nothing, I beg to differ, 10$/mo is a LOT. Especially for a broke college student, not all of us have great jobs, or have parents with deep pockets who like to spoil their kids rotten with whatever they want. 10$/mo is almost as much as I pay for my cell phone bill, It's 1/4 of how much I pay for my Internet. 20$/year sounds like a fair price to me but 10$/mo is ludicrous.(and isn't it 15$/mo for gom anyways?) If I can get billions of hours of free content(youtube, hulu etc) and thousands of hours of free starcraft2 content by paying 40$/mo for internet, I shouldn't have to pay 10$/mo for a few GSL games. GOM would do better in the long term if they get more viewers, and make them watch a couple advertisements rather than trying to make all the viewers pay a fee, This business model has been reproduced all over the internet. Saying that the only way they can do it is by charging a fee is just simply not true.
Just to add some counter balance... $10 is hardly anything, it's the average price of a lunch here. I dunno about you, but I can easely sleep past breakfast on weekends, wake up, and don't eat anything until dinner, problem solved, $10 saved on not eating breakfast & lunch 1 day per month. And you pay $10/mo on cellphone bill? O.o Admittedly, my bill has gone up in the past 2 years, so I'm currently paying about $25/year. But while i was still in school and meeting everyone daily, my phone bill was about $10 per year. Try talking to people in person (or over internet) more to save some money there.
And oh, I bet you're one of the majority that like to go out a friday night and spend $300 once or twice per month on drinks.
On February 01 2011 03:49 TheGiftedApe wrote: The answer here is obvious imo:
Pay per View = Lower viewer counts, but Gom makes more profit in the short term.
Free per View = Higher Viewer counts, less profit in the short term, (more profit in the long term from sponsors and advertisers though)
I think there's a lot of assumptions in that post that you're just glossing over. What are GOM's total viewership on their VODs? I'm at work but I'd assume a Ro16 game gets somewhere between 30,000 - 70,000 views. How many views do you think it would get if it was free?
Now, do you think the costs associated with streaming content for free to those users could be supported by completely untargeted, global ads? And do you think they would end up further ahead this year if they went that route, or stuck with the $10 / season model? At what point does the profit / season cross over that threshold? I don't think it's as cut and dry as "more profit in the long term".
The foreign market isn't even on a sponsor's radar, so we can ignore that. Advertising is of course something GOM is looking at. But I don't think you can just say "GOM, if you took a loss to provide free content now, you'd make a 50% return by 2012." It's not that simple. It's a pretty huge risk. I think GOM is playing it right.
Why don't Blizzard just pay for the streaming cost? It's probably less than 1% of their WoW income.
Why doesent Blizzard pay for my heating and electric bill too so i can watch GSL? Blizzard is a company separate from GomTV. I cant believe you actually posted that.
Blizzard sponsors the GSL, they specifically partnered with GOM for this tournament. Michael Morhaime even gave a speech at the opening ceremony for season 1. Clearly there is an intimate relationship between Blizzard and GOM, and I personally think Blizzard should take some responsibility for this. They completely ignored BW when it was released and we got free VODs of pro games, free replays and even though it was mostly devoid of English commentary, at least it was free. I'd rather have that, but that's a personal opinion. It doesn't take a lot of knowledge of the game to enjoy it with no sound. That's how we had to enjoy e-sports in the first plays before youtube- with replays alone.
Blizzard needs to man up and respond, regardless of what GOM decides to do.
You realize all those "free" BW VODs and such were actually pirated, right? Blows my mind that people think they should get free entitlements because they got stolen content for free in the past.
It's really incredible how unwilling some of you are to pay for ANYTHING on the internet. The $40 a month you pay for internet is only for access to the internet, not free access to everything on the internet. Should your WoW subscription, Netflix membership, Xbox live membership, etc. etc. be free also? You guys know the point of a business is to make money and not give cheap people free stuff... right?
On February 01 2011 03:49 TheGiftedApe wrote: The answer here is obvious imo:
Pay per View = Lower viewer counts, but Gom makes more profit in the short term.
Free per View = Higher Viewer counts, less profit in the short term, (more profit in the long term from sponsors and advertisers though)
I think there's a lot of assumptions in that post that you're just glossing over. What are GOM's total viewership on their VODs? I'm at work but I'd assume a Ro16 game gets somewhere between 30,000 - 70,000 views. How many views do you think it would get if it was free?
Now, do you think the costs associated with streaming content for free to those users could be supported by completely untargeted, global ads? And do you think they would end up further ahead this year if they went that route, or stuck with the $10 / season model? At what point does the profit / season cross over that threshold? I don't think it's as cut and dry as "more profit in the long term".
The foreign market isn't even on a sponsor's radar, so we can ignore that. Advertising is of course something GOM is looking at. But I don't think you can just say "GOM, if you took a loss to provide free content now, you'd make a 50% return by 2012." It's not that simple. It's a pretty huge risk. I think GOM is playing it right.
We really have to stop focusing on GOM per say, but rather the reasons why MBC and OGN have no rights to broadcasting Starcraft 2.
With MBC and OGN, you would finally have: 1) Free Games on Youtube 2) More Prize pools (2 or 3 tournaments with 40-50k prizes rather than 1 tournament) 3) Televised games, bigger fanclubs and better growth.
GOM is right in making people pay for streams (NHL/NFL/NBA does it too) However, GOM is wrong in preventing their game from growing by barring other major companies from televising it.
Starcraft 2 has a very decent chance of getting exposure outside of Korea because its new and shiny, but we're blowing it in a very critical moment.
On February 01 2011 06:45 Freak705 wrote: To any college/university student: Take 1 night off from partying, BAM! 2 months of GSL right there. I'm a broke ass student too, I don't get handouts from my parents, but $10 is really not *that* hard to come by.. Volunteer for a psychology experiment, they often pay subjects $10-15 for an hour of your time :p
It's not about the money, it's about the principle. I don't care to pay for content which, while it's good, I expect to get for free through various sponsorships. If Dexter episodes were 50 cents each, some people wouldn't bother - not necessarily because it's not worth it - the entertainment value is definitely worth 50 cents, but there's other things to do, therefore the show would watch a large part of its audience. Maybe GOMTV figured that that was the optimal business model because it creates the perfect balance between ad revenue and customer money.
I just think it's a shame because a couple of days ago, my friend told me "I wish you'd seen this game, Nestea pulled off something amazing". Oh well, I've never seen that game and probably never will. The contrary is also true. I've been "initiating" some friends to Starcraft and Starcraft 2, and I can't redirect them to the absolute best Starcraft 2 ever played... And yet I can easily point them at free, commentated SCBW games.
Public domain man, it rocks. And it helps things grow. You can go on and on about how people should just pay $10, but at the end of the day, less people are exposed to the game because I can't copy paste a youtube link to show you someone doing something amazing.
If I can get billions of hours of free content(youtube, hulu etc) and thousands of hours of free starcraft2 content by paying 40$/mo for internet, I shouldn't have to pay 10$/mo for a few GSL games.
You can watch the games live for free. If you want the luxury of watching them whenever you want you have to pay. You are renting storage and web hosting. Was your hard drive free?
Consider this argument: Youtube is free because it's done right.
If I don't catch GSL late, I don't watch it - because of that I don't care so much about the results because usually, I can't see all the games. I don't even know how much it is - I just think it's silly that I'd have to pay.
Youtube is free because it is another business model because it is another market. How much content was produced by Youtube when it was the size of GomTV? Please people...
... What about MBC and OGN which have business models similar to GOMTV but their content is free?
On February 01 2011 06:51 Neo.NEt wrote: It's really incredible how unwilling some of you are to pay for ANYTHING on the internet. The $40 a month you pay for internet is only for access to the internet, not free access to everything on the internet. Should your WoW subscription, Netflix membership, Xbox live membership, etc. etc. be free also? You guys know the point of a business is to make money and not give cheap people free stuff... right?
People have to understand that its not about the money. Its that it limits other people from seeing it.
Don't we all want Starcraft 2 to become more mainstream rather than being a small market niche?
Should we make a poll on how many of the people that claim that esport should be free + ads have adblock (or similar) activated ? i don't think ads would work. others tournament in US and EU are ads driven and their organisation lack of quality
On February 01 2011 03:49 TheGiftedApe wrote: The answer here is obvious imo:
Pay per View = Lower viewer counts, but Gom makes more profit in the short term.
Free per View = Higher Viewer counts, less profit in the short term, (more profit in the long term from sponsors and advertisers though)
I think there's a lot of assumptions in that post that you're just glossing over. What are GOM's total viewership on their VODs? I'm at work but I'd assume a Ro16 game gets somewhere between 30,000 - 70,000 views. How many views do you think it would get if it was free?
Now, do you think the costs associated with streaming content for free to those users could be supported by completely untargeted, global ads? And do you think they would end up further ahead this year if they went that route, or stuck with the $10 / season model? At what point does the profit / season cross over that threshold? I don't think it's as cut and dry as "more profit in the long term".
The foreign market isn't even on a sponsor's radar, so we can ignore that. Advertising is of course something GOM is looking at. But I don't think you can just say "GOM, if you took a loss to provide free content now, you'd make a 50% return by 2012." It's not that simple. It's a pretty huge risk. I think GOM is playing it right.
We really have to stop focusing on GOM per say, but rather the reasons why MBC and OGN have no rights to broadcasting Starcraft 2.
With MBC and OGN, you would finally have: 1) Free Games on Youtube 2) More Prize pools (2 or 3 tournaments with 40-50k prizes rather than 1 tournament) 3) Televised games, bigger fanclubs and better growth.
GOM is right in making people pay for streams (NHL/NFL/NBA does it too) However, GOM is wrong in preventing their game from growing by barring other major companies from televising it.
Starcraft 2 has a very decent chance of getting exposure outside of Korea because its new and shiny, but we're blowing it in a very critical moment.
Just my 2 cents.
You know those OGN/MBC VODs were all pirated, right? They just didn't care.
On February 01 2011 06:45 Freak705 wrote: To any college/university student: Take 1 night off from partying, BAM! 2 months of GSL right there. I'm a broke ass student too, I don't get handouts from my parents, but $10 is really not *that* hard to come by.. Volunteer for a psychology experiment, they often pay subjects $10-15 for an hour of your time :p
It's not about the money, it's about the principle. I don't care to pay for content which, while it's good, I expect to get for free through various sponsorships. If Dexter episodes were 50 cents each, some people wouldn't bother - not necessarily because it's not worth it - the entertainment value is definitely worth 50 cents, but there's other things to do, therefore the show would watch a large part of its audience. Maybe GOMTV figured that that was the optimal business model because it creates the perfect balance between ad revenue and customer money.
I just think it's a shame because a couple of days ago, my friend told me "I wish you'd seen this game, Nestea pulled off something amazing". Oh well, I've never seen that game and probably never will. The contrary is also true. I've been "initiating" some friends to Starcraft and Starcraft 2, and I can't redirect them to the absolute best Starcraft 2 ever played... And yet I can easily point them at free, commentated SCBW games.
Public domain man, it rocks. And it helps things grow. You can go on and on about how people should just pay $10, but at the end of the day, less people are exposed to the game because I can't copy paste a youtube link to show you someone doing something amazing.
If I can get billions of hours of free content(youtube, hulu etc) and thousands of hours of free starcraft2 content by paying 40$/mo for internet, I shouldn't have to pay 10$/mo for a few GSL games.
You can watch the games live for free. If you want the luxury of watching them whenever you want you have to pay. You are renting storage and web hosting. Was your hard drive free?
Consider this argument: Youtube is free because it's done right.
If I don't catch GSL late, I don't watch it - because of that I don't care so much about the results because usually, I can't see all the games. I don't even know how much it is - I just think it's silly that I'd have to pay.
Youtube is free because it is another business model because it is another market. How much content was produced by Youtube when it was the size of GomTV? Please people...
... What about MBC and OGN which have business models similar to GOMTV but their content is free?
Please dude.
Where is it free? Show me where I can go to OGN.com and watch VODs for free now please.
On February 01 2011 06:51 Neo.NEt wrote: It's really incredible how unwilling some of you are to pay for ANYTHING on the internet. The $40 a month you pay for internet is only for access to the internet, not free access to everything on the internet. Should your WoW subscription, Netflix membership, Xbox live membership, etc. etc. be free also? You guys know the point of a business is to make money and not give cheap people free stuff... right?
People have to understand that its not about the money. Its that it limits other people from seeing it.
Don't we all want Starcraft 2 to become more mainstream rather than being a small market niche?
Then I think you should start working very hard to earn a lot of money and pay GOM a flat rate to make their service free. I can't get how you're arguing that it should just be free for whatever reason.
On February 01 2011 06:45 Freak705 wrote: To any college/university student: Take 1 night off from partying, BAM! 2 months of GSL right there. I'm a broke ass student too, I don't get handouts from my parents, but $10 is really not *that* hard to come by.. Volunteer for a psychology experiment, they often pay subjects $10-15 for an hour of your time :p
It's not about the money, it's about the principle. I don't care to pay for content which, while it's good, I expect to get for free through various sponsorships. If Dexter episodes were 50 cents each, some people wouldn't bother - not necessarily because it's not worth it - the entertainment value is definitely worth 50 cents, but there's other things to do, therefore the show would watch a large part of its audience. Maybe GOMTV figured that that was the optimal business model because it creates the perfect balance between ad revenue and customer money.
I just think it's a shame because a couple of days ago, my friend told me "I wish you'd seen this game, Nestea pulled off something amazing". Oh well, I've never seen that game and probably never will. The contrary is also true. I've been "initiating" some friends to Starcraft and Starcraft 2, and I can't redirect them to the absolute best Starcraft 2 ever played... And yet I can easily point them at free, commentated SCBW games.
Public domain man, it rocks. And it helps things grow. You can go on and on about how people should just pay $10, but at the end of the day, less people are exposed to the game because I can't copy paste a youtube link to show you someone doing something amazing.
On February 01 2011 06:47 LagT_T wrote:
On February 01 2011 06:40 Djzapz wrote:
On February 01 2011 06:14 LagT_T wrote:
If I can get billions of hours of free content(youtube, hulu etc) and thousands of hours of free starcraft2 content by paying 40$/mo for internet, I shouldn't have to pay 10$/mo for a few GSL games.
You can watch the games live for free. If you want the luxury of watching them whenever you want you have to pay. You are renting storage and web hosting. Was your hard drive free?
Consider this argument: Youtube is free because it's done right.
If I don't catch GSL late, I don't watch it - because of that I don't care so much about the results because usually, I can't see all the games. I don't even know how much it is - I just think it's silly that I'd have to pay.
Youtube is free because it is another business model because it is another market. How much content was produced by Youtube when it was the size of GomTV? Please people...
... What about MBC and OGN which have business models similar to GOMTV but their content is free?
Please dude.
Where is it free? Show me where I can go to OGN.com and watch VODs for free now please.
Youtube is full of games played on OGN - company which allows its content to be on public domain. It's not directly on the site but people are allowed to "spread the word", so to speak
On February 01 2011 06:51 Neo.NEt wrote: It's really incredible how unwilling some of you are to pay for ANYTHING on the internet. The $40 a month you pay for internet is only for access to the internet, not free access to everything on the internet. Should your WoW subscription, Netflix membership, Xbox live membership, etc. etc. be free also? You guys know the point of a business is to make money and not give cheap people free stuff... right?
People have to understand that its not about the money. Its that it limits other people from seeing it.
Don't we all want Starcraft 2 to become more mainstream rather than being a small market niche?
Gom doesn't care if that's what we want and they shouldn't... they are a business and they need to make money. If they think this is the best way to do that, that is what they should do. If making everything free made SC2 blow up and also put Gom out of business because they weren't making enough money, sure that's good for us, but Gom wouldn't be too pleased.
Let's be honest, almost every person in this thread that isn't paying the 10 bucks is doing it because either 1) they actually can't afford it which is understandable or 2) they are too cheap (or I guess they don't actually want to watch). It's beyond pointless to protest this honestly.
I've alway bought the season pass. It started out 20$ for GSL 1 ..then the GSL 2 and 3 only costed me 15$ each. GSL 4 was only 10$ and now GSTL Feb is only 5$. For the stream quality, production value of the event and the hrs and hrs of footage ..its worth it.
On February 01 2011 06:53 Djzapz wrote: It's not about the money, it's about the principle. I don't care to pay for content which, while it's good, I expect to get for free through various sponsorships.
I think your expectations are somewhat tilted. Have you looked at Hulu recently, for example? If you want full access to an entire season, all season long, you now have to cough up $7.99/mo for that content. They call it Hulu Plus. http://www.hulu.com/plus
On February 01 2011 06:53 Djzapz wrote: I've been "initiating" some friends to Starcraft and Starcraft 2, and I can't redirect them to the absolute best Starcraft 2 ever played... And yet I can easily point them at free, commentated SCBW games.
Public domain man, it rocks. And it helps things grow. You can go on and on about how people should just pay $10, but at the end of the day, less people are exposed to the game because I can't copy paste a youtube link to show you someone doing something amazing.
There's plenty of public domain SC2 content out there -- and on YouTube -- if you want to introduce people to StarCraft in general. HDStarCraft, Husky, Crota, etc. Even Day[9] has his dailies distributed to YouTube. That's no argument.
Also, Brood War content is free because it's technically pirated. That stuff coming out of Korea isn't produced with the intention of distributing it globally. If anyone even dared to try charging people for stolen content, you could bet there'd be lawsuits up the wazoo.
On February 01 2011 06:53 Djzapz wrote: It's not about the money, it's about the principle. I don't care to pay for content which, while it's good, I expect to get for free through various sponsorships.
I think your expectations are somewhat tilted. Have you looked at Hulu recently, for example? If you want full access to an entire season, all season long, you now have to cough up $7.99/mo for that content. They call it Hulu Plus. http://www.hulu.com/plus
On February 01 2011 06:53 Djzapz wrote: I've been "initiating" some friends to Starcraft and Starcraft 2, and I can't redirect them to the absolute best Starcraft 2 ever played... And yet I can easily point them at free, commentated SCBW games.
Public domain man, it rocks. And it helps things grow. You can go on and on about how people should just pay $10, but at the end of the day, less people are exposed to the game because I can't copy paste a youtube link to show you someone doing something amazing.
There's plenty of public domain SC2 content out there -- and on YouTube -- if you want to introduce people to StarCraft in general. HDStarCraft, Husky, Crota, etc. Even Day[9] has his dailies distributed to YouTube. That's no argument.
Also, Brood War content is free because it's technically pirated. That stuff coming out of Korea isn't produced with the intention of distributing it globally. If anyone even dared to try charging people for stolen content, you could bet there'd be lawsuits up the wazoo.
Yeah maybe you're right, I'd have to give it some more thought. Oh well.
On February 01 2011 06:51 Neo.NEt wrote: It's really incredible how unwilling some of you are to pay for ANYTHING on the internet. The $40 a month you pay for internet is only for access to the internet, not free access to everything on the internet. Should your WoW subscription, Netflix membership, Xbox live membership, etc. etc. be free also? You guys know the point of a business is to make money and not give cheap people free stuff... right?
People have to understand that its not about the money. Its that it limits other people from seeing it.
Don't we all want Starcraft 2 to become more mainstream rather than being a small market niche?
It's so easy to say that if you don't have to pay the bills, nor have to take the risks. Also, may i presume that you think SC2 should be freely available?
On February 01 2011 03:49 TheGiftedApe wrote: The answer here is obvious imo:
Pay per View = Lower viewer counts, but Gom makes more profit in the short term.
Free per View = Higher Viewer counts, less profit in the short term, (more profit in the long term from sponsors and advertisers though)
I think there's a lot of assumptions in that post that you're just glossing over. What are GOM's total viewership on their VODs? I'm at work but I'd assume a Ro16 game gets somewhere between 30,000 - 70,000 views. How many views do you think it would get if it was free?
Now, do you think the costs associated with streaming content for free to those users could be supported by completely untargeted, global ads? And do you think they would end up further ahead this year if they went that route, or stuck with the $10 / season model? At what point does the profit / season cross over that threshold? I don't think it's as cut and dry as "more profit in the long term".
The foreign market isn't even on a sponsor's radar, so we can ignore that. Advertising is of course something GOM is looking at. But I don't think you can just say "GOM, if you took a loss to provide free content now, you'd make a 50% return by 2012." It's not that simple. It's a pretty huge risk. I think GOM is playing it right.
We really have to stop focusing on GOM per say, but rather the reasons why MBC and OGN have no rights to broadcasting Starcraft 2.
With MBC and OGN, you would finally have: 1) Free Games on Youtube 2) More Prize pools (2 or 3 tournaments with 40-50k prizes rather than 1 tournament) 3) Televised games, bigger fanclubs and better growth.
GOM is right in making people pay for streams (NHL/NFL/NBA does it too) However, GOM is wrong in preventing their game from growing by barring other major companies from televising it.
Starcraft 2 has a very decent chance of getting exposure outside of Korea because its new and shiny, but we're blowing it in a very critical moment.
Just my 2 cents.
You know those OGN/MBC VODs were all pirated, right? They just didn't care.
Yes and GOM cares. They actively take down the VODs from youtube.
...which is the whole point. If the whole reason for the payment is because of the VODs hosted by GOM, then just let youtube take care of it.
On February 01 2011 03:49 TheGiftedApe wrote: The answer here is obvious imo:
Pay per View = Lower viewer counts, but Gom makes more profit in the short term.
Free per View = Higher Viewer counts, less profit in the short term, (more profit in the long term from sponsors and advertisers though)
I think there's a lot of assumptions in that post that you're just glossing over. What are GOM's total viewership on their VODs? I'm at work but I'd assume a Ro16 game gets somewhere between 30,000 - 70,000 views. How many views do you think it would get if it was free?
Now, do you think the costs associated with streaming content for free to those users could be supported by completely untargeted, global ads? And do you think they would end up further ahead this year if they went that route, or stuck with the $10 / season model? At what point does the profit / season cross over that threshold? I don't think it's as cut and dry as "more profit in the long term".
The foreign market isn't even on a sponsor's radar, so we can ignore that. Advertising is of course something GOM is looking at. But I don't think you can just say "GOM, if you took a loss to provide free content now, you'd make a 50% return by 2012." It's not that simple. It's a pretty huge risk. I think GOM is playing it right.
We really have to stop focusing on GOM per say, but rather the reasons why MBC and OGN have no rights to broadcasting Starcraft 2.
With MBC and OGN, you would finally have: 1) Free Games on Youtube 2) More Prize pools (2 or 3 tournaments with 40-50k prizes rather than 1 tournament) 3) Televised games, bigger fanclubs and better growth.
GOM is right in making people pay for streams (NHL/NFL/NBA does it too) However, GOM is wrong in preventing their game from growing by barring other major companies from televising it.
Starcraft 2 has a very decent chance of getting exposure outside of Korea because its new and shiny, but we're blowing it in a very critical moment.
Just my 2 cents.
You know those OGN/MBC VODs were all pirated, right? They just didn't care.
Yes and GOM cares. They actively take down the VODs from youtube.
...which is the whole point. If the whole reason for the payment is because of the VODs hosted by GOM, then just let youtube take care of it.
GOMtv cares because they're catering to a global audience. OGN/MBC don't care because their business model is purely focused on Korea. If they ever tried distributing their content to other countries, you can bet they'd be flexing their IP rights as well and having that pirated content taken down.
Its worth it if you are not going to stay up late like me to watch them all live, because if you dont stay up then you wont see all the games you missed. If you are going to stay up then you might as well watch the free stream its decent quality. I would buy the GSL package but ive had sooooooo many problems with getting the stream to play, and tastosis have recognized how GomTV has been "broke" due to so many people getting on, I would be worried that when I want to watch the show I paid for I wouldnt be able to live.
On February 01 2011 06:51 Neo.NEt wrote: It's really incredible how unwilling some of you are to pay for ANYTHING on the internet. The $40 a month you pay for internet is only for access to the internet, not free access to everything on the internet. Should your WoW subscription, Netflix membership, Xbox live membership, etc. etc. be free also? You guys know the point of a business is to make money and not give cheap people free stuff... right?
People have to understand that its not about the money. Its that it limits other people from seeing it.
Don't we all want Starcraft 2 to become more mainstream rather than being a small market niche?
It's so easy to say that if you don't have to pay the bills, nor have to take the risks. Also, may i presume that you think SC2 should be freely available?
There are organizations who are willing to take these risks (OGN and MBC), but they are barred from showing Starcraft 2.
Its pretty simple. I would like to see the game be a lot more than it is today. If we want to put an anchor to its growth, then that's fine. I would still pay because its entertaining but the game will never reach its fullest potential in terms of audiences.
On February 01 2011 03:49 TheGiftedApe wrote: The answer here is obvious imo:
Pay per View = Lower viewer counts, but Gom makes more profit in the short term.
Free per View = Higher Viewer counts, less profit in the short term, (more profit in the long term from sponsors and advertisers though)
obviously GOM is worried about making money right now, and has lost sight of the bigger picture imo.
You need money to make money, if they don't have a decent stream people won't watch anyway, and they won't get sponsors. (If you haven't noticed, there are at times a bunch of complaining regarding the quality of the free SQ stream).
If they have alot of viewers on the other hand, sponsors will be willing to pay more.
On February 01 2011 03:49 TheGiftedApe wrote: Also, to those who say, 10$/month is nothing, I beg to differ, 10$/mo is a LOT. Especially for a broke college student, not all of us have great jobs, or have parents with deep pockets who like to spoil their kids rotten with whatever they want. 10$/mo is almost as much as I pay for my cell phone bill, It's 1/4 of how much I pay for my Internet. 20$/year sounds like a fair price to me but 10$/mo is ludicrous.(and isn't it 15$/mo for gom anyways?) If I can get billions of hours of free content(youtube, hulu etc) and thousands of hours of free starcraft2 content by paying 40$/mo for internet, I shouldn't have to pay 10$/mo for a few GSL games. GOM would do better in the long term if they get more viewers, and make them watch a couple advertisements rather than trying to make all the viewers pay a fee, This business model has been reproduced all over the internet. Saying that the only way they can do it is by charging a fee is just simply not true.
Just to add some counter balance... $10 is hardly anything, it's the average price of a lunch here. I dunno about you, but I can easely sleep past breakfast on weekends, wake up, and don't eat anything until dinner, problem solved, $10 saved on not eating breakfast & lunch 1 day per month. And you pay $10/mo on cellphone bill? O.o Admittedly, my bill has gone up in the past 2 years, so I'm currently paying about $25/year. But while i was still in school and meeting everyone daily, my phone bill was about $10 per year. Try talking to people in person (or over internet) more to save some money there.
And oh, I bet you're one of the majority that like to go out a friday night and spend $300 once or twice per month on drinks.
It's all about prioritys.
Wow you guys are complaining? I pay 89.95 a month for my net which isn't that good and has a download limit which I know many Americans and Europeans apparently think is ridiculous from what my experiences with foreign students have told me and a minimum of $100/month on my phone bill and pay my own rent and I was a student until VERY recently. I worked to get the money to pay for these things, and I didn't have rich parents with deep pockets, far from it in fact. $10/month is nothing and anyone who's saying it is clearly is not budgeting their money properly or isn't interested enough to deem in worth saving for.
As i have already mentioned previously, making people pay for GSL does in no way hinder anything especially the future of esports, everyone already says 'why should I' I can get' x' for free on youtube etc....Exactly you can but why do you want the GSL games then? The caliber of play and the players playing, you pay for quality that's how the world works.
Anyone can go to the park and watch a kids soccer game. You wanna see the A-league play. You pay. Simple.
I would like to point out that Koreans wouldn't even watch SC1 if they started charging for VODs. Remember when they tried to charge money to see the live events?
Mainstream e-sports fan just are not willing to pay money to watch these stuff.
Of course TL community would pay (myself included) to watch Gom. But if it were to grow beyond hardcore SC2 fans, you can't charge money for this stuff.
Also, you can get the GSL vods for free. If you were in Korea.
On February 01 2011 03:49 TheGiftedApe wrote: The answer here is obvious imo:
Pay per View = Lower viewer counts, but Gom makes more profit in the short term.
Free per View = Higher Viewer counts, less profit in the short term, (more profit in the long term from sponsors and advertisers though)
I think there's a lot of assumptions in that post that you're just glossing over. What are GOM's total viewership on their VODs? I'm at work but I'd assume a Ro16 game gets somewhere between 30,000 - 70,000 views. How many views do you think it would get if it was free?
Now, do you think the costs associated with streaming content for free to those users could be supported by completely untargeted, global ads? And do you think they would end up further ahead this year if they went that route, or stuck with the $10 / season model? At what point does the profit / season cross over that threshold? I don't think it's as cut and dry as "more profit in the long term".
The foreign market isn't even on a sponsor's radar, so we can ignore that. Advertising is of course something GOM is looking at. But I don't think you can just say "GOM, if you took a loss to provide free content now, you'd make a 50% return by 2012." It's not that simple. It's a pretty huge risk. I think GOM is playing it right.
We really have to stop focusing on GOM per say, but rather the reasons why MBC and OGN have no rights to broadcasting Starcraft 2.
With MBC and OGN, you would finally have: 1) Free Games on Youtube 2) More Prize pools (2 or 3 tournaments with 40-50k prizes rather than 1 tournament) 3) Televised games, bigger fanclubs and better growth.
GOM is right in making people pay for streams (NHL/NFL/NBA does it too) However, GOM is wrong in preventing their game from growing by barring other major companies from televising it.
Starcraft 2 has a very decent chance of getting exposure outside of Korea because its new and shiny, but we're blowing it in a very critical moment.
Just my 2 cents.
You know those OGN/MBC VODs were all pirated, right? They just didn't care.
Yes and GOM cares. They actively take down the VODs from youtube.
...which is the whole point. If the whole reason for the payment is because of the VODs hosted by GOM, then just let youtube take care of it.
GOMtv cares because they're catering to a global audience. OGN/MBC don't care because their business model is purely focused on Korea. If they ever tried distributing their content to other countries, you can bet they'd be flexing their IP rights as well and having that pirated content taken down.
GOM cares because they see the potential of what Starcraft 2 can be in terms of audiences. They've seen it in the GOM MSL days (5 seasons) and wanted to expand into SC1 to take advantage of it. That's fine.
But this time, because they are the only one allowed to Starcraft 2 contents, there won't be that many people who will be exposed to it.
OGN made people pay tickets for a Finals, but stopped (I wonder why).
On February 01 2011 06:45 Freak705 wrote: To any college/university student: Take 1 night off from partying, BAM! 2 months of GSL right there. I'm a broke ass student too, I don't get handouts from my parents, but $10 is really not *that* hard to come by.. Volunteer for a psychology experiment, they often pay subjects $10-15 for an hour of your time :p
It's not about the money, it's about the principle. I don't care to pay for content which, while it's good, I expect to get for free through various sponsorships. If Dexter episodes were 50 cents each, some people wouldn't bother - not necessarily because it's not worth it - the entertainment value is definitely worth 50 cents, but there's other things to do, therefore the show would watch a large part of its audience. Maybe GOMTV figured that that was the optimal business model because it creates the perfect balance between ad revenue and customer money.
I just think it's a shame because a couple of days ago, my friend told me "I wish you'd seen this game, Nestea pulled off something amazing". Oh well, I've never seen that game and probably never will. The contrary is also true. I've been "initiating" some friends to Starcraft and Starcraft 2, and I can't redirect them to the absolute best Starcraft 2 ever played... And yet I can easily point them at free, commentated SCBW games.
Public domain man, it rocks. And it helps things grow. You can go on and on about how people should just pay $10, but at the end of the day, less people are exposed to the game because I can't copy paste a youtube link to show you someone doing something amazing.
On February 01 2011 06:47 LagT_T wrote:
On February 01 2011 06:40 Djzapz wrote:
On February 01 2011 06:14 LagT_T wrote:
If I can get billions of hours of free content(youtube, hulu etc) and thousands of hours of free starcraft2 content by paying 40$/mo for internet, I shouldn't have to pay 10$/mo for a few GSL games.
You can watch the games live for free. If you want the luxury of watching them whenever you want you have to pay. You are renting storage and web hosting. Was your hard drive free?
Consider this argument: Youtube is free because it's done right.
If I don't catch GSL late, I don't watch it - because of that I don't care so much about the results because usually, I can't see all the games. I don't even know how much it is - I just think it's silly that I'd have to pay.
Youtube is free because it is another business model because it is another market. How much content was produced by Youtube when it was the size of GomTV? Please people...
... What about MBC and OGN which have business models similar to GOMTV but their content is free?
Please dude.
Where is it free? Show me where I can go to OGN.com and watch VODs for free now please.
Wait, you really didn't know about free VODs on OGN.com?
Blocked at work, but I'll take your word for it. Are there ads on the page, or ads on the broadcast, or can I actually just load any vod adfree? The latter would be really surprising.
On February 01 2011 03:49 TheGiftedApe wrote: The answer here is obvious imo:
Pay per View = Lower viewer counts, but Gom makes more profit in the short term.
Free per View = Higher Viewer counts, less profit in the short term, (more profit in the long term from sponsors and advertisers though)
I think there's a lot of assumptions in that post that you're just glossing over. What are GOM's total viewership on their VODs? I'm at work but I'd assume a Ro16 game gets somewhere between 30,000 - 70,000 views. How many views do you think it would get if it was free?
Now, do you think the costs associated with streaming content for free to those users could be supported by completely untargeted, global ads? And do you think they would end up further ahead this year if they went that route, or stuck with the $10 / season model? At what point does the profit / season cross over that threshold? I don't think it's as cut and dry as "more profit in the long term".
The foreign market isn't even on a sponsor's radar, so we can ignore that. Advertising is of course something GOM is looking at. But I don't think you can just say "GOM, if you took a loss to provide free content now, you'd make a 50% return by 2012." It's not that simple. It's a pretty huge risk. I think GOM is playing it right.
We really have to stop focusing on GOM per say, but rather the reasons why MBC and OGN have no rights to broadcasting Starcraft 2.
With MBC and OGN, you would finally have: 1) Free Games on Youtube 2) More Prize pools (2 or 3 tournaments with 40-50k prizes rather than 1 tournament) 3) Televised games, bigger fanclubs and better growth.
GOM is right in making people pay for streams (NHL/NFL/NBA does it too) However, GOM is wrong in preventing their game from growing by barring other major companies from televising it.
Starcraft 2 has a very decent chance of getting exposure outside of Korea because its new and shiny, but we're blowing it in a very critical moment.
Just my 2 cents.
You know those OGN/MBC VODs were all pirated, right? They just didn't care.
Yes and GOM cares. They actively take down the VODs from youtube.
...which is the whole point. If the whole reason for the payment is because of the VODs hosted by GOM, then just let youtube take care of it.
GOMtv cares because they're catering to a global audience. OGN/MBC don't care because their business model is purely focused on Korea. If they ever tried distributing their content to other countries, you can bet they'd be flexing their IP rights as well and having that pirated content taken down.
GOM cares because they see the potential of what Starcraft 2 can be in terms of audiences. They've seen it in the GOM MSL days (5 seasons) and wanted to expand into SC1 to take advantage of it. That's fine.
But this time, because they are the only one allowed to Starcraft 2 contents, there won't be that many people who will be exposed to it.
OGN made people pay tickets for a Finals, but stopped (I wonder why).
Do you think the average American gamer is more likely to know about the GSL or OSL?
On February 01 2011 06:45 Freak705 wrote: To any college/university student: Take 1 night off from partying, BAM! 2 months of GSL right there. I'm a broke ass student too, I don't get handouts from my parents, but $10 is really not *that* hard to come by.. Volunteer for a psychology experiment, they often pay subjects $10-15 for an hour of your time :p
It's not about the money, it's about the principle. I don't care to pay for content which, while it's good, I expect to get for free through various sponsorships. If Dexter episodes were 50 cents each, some people wouldn't bother - not necessarily because it's not worth it - the entertainment value is definitely worth 50 cents, but there's other things to do, therefore the show would watch a large part of its audience. Maybe GOMTV figured that that was the optimal business model because it creates the perfect balance between ad revenue and customer money.
I just think it's a shame because a couple of days ago, my friend told me "I wish you'd seen this game, Nestea pulled off something amazing". Oh well, I've never seen that game and probably never will. The contrary is also true. I've been "initiating" some friends to Starcraft and Starcraft 2, and I can't redirect them to the absolute best Starcraft 2 ever played... And yet I can easily point them at free, commentated SCBW games.
Public domain man, it rocks. And it helps things grow. You can go on and on about how people should just pay $10, but at the end of the day, less people are exposed to the game because I can't copy paste a youtube link to show you someone doing something amazing.
On February 01 2011 06:47 LagT_T wrote:
On February 01 2011 06:40 Djzapz wrote:
On February 01 2011 06:14 LagT_T wrote:
If I can get billions of hours of free content(youtube, hulu etc) and thousands of hours of free starcraft2 content by paying 40$/mo for internet, I shouldn't have to pay 10$/mo for a few GSL games.
You can watch the games live for free. If you want the luxury of watching them whenever you want you have to pay. You are renting storage and web hosting. Was your hard drive free?
Consider this argument: Youtube is free because it's done right.
If I don't catch GSL late, I don't watch it - because of that I don't care so much about the results because usually, I can't see all the games. I don't even know how much it is - I just think it's silly that I'd have to pay.
Youtube is free because it is another business model because it is another market. How much content was produced by Youtube when it was the size of GomTV? Please people...
... What about MBC and OGN which have business models similar to GOMTV but their content is free?
Please dude.
Where is it free? Show me where I can go to OGN.com and watch VODs for free now please.
Wait, you really didn't know about free VODs on OGN.com?
Blocked at work, but I'll take your word for it. Are there ads on the page, or ads on the broadcast, or can I actually just load any vod adfree? The latter would be really surprising.
It's straight rip from TV (this is what you get on tv VoDs as well), so it gives you the opening.
On February 01 2011 06:45 Freak705 wrote: To any college/university student: Take 1 night off from partying, BAM! 2 months of GSL right there. I'm a broke ass student too, I don't get handouts from my parents, but $10 is really not *that* hard to come by.. Volunteer for a psychology experiment, they often pay subjects $10-15 for an hour of your time :p
It's not about the money, it's about the principle. I don't care to pay for content which, while it's good, I expect to get for free through various sponsorships. If Dexter episodes were 50 cents each, some people wouldn't bother - not necessarily because it's not worth it - the entertainment value is definitely worth 50 cents, but there's other things to do, therefore the show would watch a large part of its audience. Maybe GOMTV figured that that was the optimal business model because it creates the perfect balance between ad revenue and customer money.
I just think it's a shame because a couple of days ago, my friend told me "I wish you'd seen this game, Nestea pulled off something amazing". Oh well, I've never seen that game and probably never will. The contrary is also true. I've been "initiating" some friends to Starcraft and Starcraft 2, and I can't redirect them to the absolute best Starcraft 2 ever played... And yet I can easily point them at free, commentated SCBW games.
Public domain man, it rocks. And it helps things grow. You can go on and on about how people should just pay $10, but at the end of the day, less people are exposed to the game because I can't copy paste a youtube link to show you someone doing something amazing.
On February 01 2011 06:47 LagT_T wrote:
On February 01 2011 06:40 Djzapz wrote:
On February 01 2011 06:14 LagT_T wrote:
If I can get billions of hours of free content(youtube, hulu etc) and thousands of hours of free starcraft2 content by paying 40$/mo for internet, I shouldn't have to pay 10$/mo for a few GSL games.
You can watch the games live for free. If you want the luxury of watching them whenever you want you have to pay. You are renting storage and web hosting. Was your hard drive free?
Consider this argument: Youtube is free because it's done right.
If I don't catch GSL late, I don't watch it - because of that I don't care so much about the results because usually, I can't see all the games. I don't even know how much it is - I just think it's silly that I'd have to pay.
Youtube is free because it is another business model because it is another market. How much content was produced by Youtube when it was the size of GomTV? Please people...
... What about MBC and OGN which have business models similar to GOMTV but their content is free?
Please dude.
Where is it free? Show me where I can go to OGN.com and watch VODs for free now please.
Wait, you really didn't know about free VODs on OGN.com?
Blocked at work, but I'll take your word for it. Are there ads on the page, or ads on the broadcast, or can I actually just load any vod adfree? The latter would be really surprising.
I'm watching it now, there's no ads or registration required, kssn or otherwise. Not even a commercial at the start.
This has got to be pretty new though. Also it's awesome
On February 01 2011 06:45 Freak705 wrote: To any college/university student: Take 1 night off from partying, BAM! 2 months of GSL right there. I'm a broke ass student too, I don't get handouts from my parents, but $10 is really not *that* hard to come by.. Volunteer for a psychology experiment, they often pay subjects $10-15 for an hour of your time :p
It's not about the money, it's about the principle. I don't care to pay for content which, while it's good, I expect to get for free through various sponsorships. If Dexter episodes were 50 cents each, some people wouldn't bother - not necessarily because it's not worth it - the entertainment value is definitely worth 50 cents, but there's other things to do, therefore the show would watch a large part of its audience. Maybe GOMTV figured that that was the optimal business model because it creates the perfect balance between ad revenue and customer money.
I just think it's a shame because a couple of days ago, my friend told me "I wish you'd seen this game, Nestea pulled off something amazing". Oh well, I've never seen that game and probably never will. The contrary is also true. I've been "initiating" some friends to Starcraft and Starcraft 2, and I can't redirect them to the absolute best Starcraft 2 ever played... And yet I can easily point them at free, commentated SCBW games.
Public domain man, it rocks. And it helps things grow. You can go on and on about how people should just pay $10, but at the end of the day, less people are exposed to the game because I can't copy paste a youtube link to show you someone doing something amazing.
On February 01 2011 06:47 LagT_T wrote:
On February 01 2011 06:40 Djzapz wrote:
On February 01 2011 06:14 LagT_T wrote:
If I can get billions of hours of free content(youtube, hulu etc) and thousands of hours of free starcraft2 content by paying 40$/mo for internet, I shouldn't have to pay 10$/mo for a few GSL games.
You can watch the games live for free. If you want the luxury of watching them whenever you want you have to pay. You are renting storage and web hosting. Was your hard drive free?
Consider this argument: Youtube is free because it's done right.
If I don't catch GSL late, I don't watch it - because of that I don't care so much about the results because usually, I can't see all the games. I don't even know how much it is - I just think it's silly that I'd have to pay.
Youtube is free because it is another business model because it is another market. How much content was produced by Youtube when it was the size of GomTV? Please people...
... What about MBC and OGN which have business models similar to GOMTV but their content is free?
Please dude.
Where is it free? Show me where I can go to OGN.com and watch VODs for free now please.
Wait, you really didn't know about free VODs on OGN.com?
Blocked at work, but I'll take your word for it. Are there ads on the page, or ads on the broadcast, or can I actually just load any vod adfree? The latter would be really surprising.
its direct recording of the matches sans commercials. there are short game commercials like what you see on the channel, when you first get into the player and switch vods, but nothing as bad as ustream for sure.
on the subject, you cant really blame GOM. yes it sucks that you have to pay for everything but that's how GOM's business model is built, from payperview internet streaming. asking them to stream for free is asking them, well, to just abandon making money. ogn and mbc have traditional revenue channels to support themselves.
On February 01 2011 06:45 Freak705 wrote: To any college/university student: Take 1 night off from partying, BAM! 2 months of GSL right there. I'm a broke ass student too, I don't get handouts from my parents, but $10 is really not *that* hard to come by.. Volunteer for a psychology experiment, they often pay subjects $10-15 for an hour of your time :p
It's not about the money, it's about the principle. I don't care to pay for content which, while it's good, I expect to get for free through various sponsorships. If Dexter episodes were 50 cents each, some people wouldn't bother - not necessarily because it's not worth it - the entertainment value is definitely worth 50 cents, but there's other things to do, therefore the show would watch a large part of its audience. Maybe GOMTV figured that that was the optimal business model because it creates the perfect balance between ad revenue and customer money.
I just think it's a shame because a couple of days ago, my friend told me "I wish you'd seen this game, Nestea pulled off something amazing". Oh well, I've never seen that game and probably never will. The contrary is also true. I've been "initiating" some friends to Starcraft and Starcraft 2, and I can't redirect them to the absolute best Starcraft 2 ever played... And yet I can easily point them at free, commentated SCBW games.
Public domain man, it rocks. And it helps things grow. You can go on and on about how people should just pay $10, but at the end of the day, less people are exposed to the game because I can't copy paste a youtube link to show you someone doing something amazing.
On February 01 2011 06:47 LagT_T wrote:
On February 01 2011 06:40 Djzapz wrote:
On February 01 2011 06:14 LagT_T wrote:
If I can get billions of hours of free content(youtube, hulu etc) and thousands of hours of free starcraft2 content by paying 40$/mo for internet, I shouldn't have to pay 10$/mo for a few GSL games.
You can watch the games live for free. If you want the luxury of watching them whenever you want you have to pay. You are renting storage and web hosting. Was your hard drive free?
Consider this argument: Youtube is free because it's done right.
If I don't catch GSL late, I don't watch it - because of that I don't care so much about the results because usually, I can't see all the games. I don't even know how much it is - I just think it's silly that I'd have to pay.
Youtube is free because it is another business model because it is another market. How much content was produced by Youtube when it was the size of GomTV? Please people...
... What about MBC and OGN which have business models similar to GOMTV but their content is free?
Please dude.
Where is it free? Show me where I can go to OGN.com and watch VODs for free now please.
Wait, you really didn't know about free VODs on OGN.com?
Blocked at work, but I'll take your word for it. Are there ads on the page, or ads on the broadcast, or can I actually just load any vod adfree? The latter would be really surprising.
I'm watching it now, there's no ads or registration required, kssn or otherwise. Not even a commercial at the start.
This has got to be pretty new though. Also it's awesome
It's been there since 2008ish. Sorry checked again and theres vods going as far back as 2004.
On February 01 2011 03:49 TheGiftedApe wrote: The answer here is obvious imo:
Pay per View = Lower viewer counts, but Gom makes more profit in the short term.
Free per View = Higher Viewer counts, less profit in the short term, (more profit in the long term from sponsors and advertisers though)
I think there's a lot of assumptions in that post that you're just glossing over. What are GOM's total viewership on their VODs? I'm at work but I'd assume a Ro16 game gets somewhere between 30,000 - 70,000 views. How many views do you think it would get if it was free?
Now, do you think the costs associated with streaming content for free to those users could be supported by completely untargeted, global ads? And do you think they would end up further ahead this year if they went that route, or stuck with the $10 / season model? At what point does the profit / season cross over that threshold? I don't think it's as cut and dry as "more profit in the long term".
The foreign market isn't even on a sponsor's radar, so we can ignore that. Advertising is of course something GOM is looking at. But I don't think you can just say "GOM, if you took a loss to provide free content now, you'd make a 50% return by 2012." It's not that simple. It's a pretty huge risk. I think GOM is playing it right.
We really have to stop focusing on GOM per say, but rather the reasons why MBC and OGN have no rights to broadcasting Starcraft 2.
With MBC and OGN, you would finally have: 1) Free Games on Youtube 2) More Prize pools (2 or 3 tournaments with 40-50k prizes rather than 1 tournament) 3) Televised games, bigger fanclubs and better growth.
GOM is right in making people pay for streams (NHL/NFL/NBA does it too) However, GOM is wrong in preventing their game from growing by barring other major companies from televising it.
Starcraft 2 has a very decent chance of getting exposure outside of Korea because its new and shiny, but we're blowing it in a very critical moment.
Just my 2 cents.
You know those OGN/MBC VODs were all pirated, right? They just didn't care.
Yes and GOM cares. They actively take down the VODs from youtube.
...which is the whole point. If the whole reason for the payment is because of the VODs hosted by GOM, then just let youtube take care of it.
GOMtv cares because they're catering to a global audience. OGN/MBC don't care because their business model is purely focused on Korea. If they ever tried distributing their content to other countries, you can bet they'd be flexing their IP rights as well and having that pirated content taken down.
GOM cares because they see the potential of what Starcraft 2 can be in terms of audiences. They've seen it in the GOM MSL days (5 seasons) and wanted to expand into SC1 to take advantage of it. That's fine.
But this time, because they are the only one allowed to Starcraft 2 contents, there won't be that many people who will be exposed to it.
OGN made people pay tickets for a Finals, but stopped (I wonder why).
GOM isn't the only one allowed to provide SC2 content. In Korea, they have the broadcasting rights. So, speaking of Korea only, GOM can either have exclusive rights or contract out rights to other broadcasting companies in the country. Outside of Korea, there's always events/pro-leagues like MLG or ESL. SC2 is different from SC1 in that the non-Korean scene is much, much larger this time around.
I probably would've bought season tickets for GSL already if it were easier to get the stream working. I have yet to get the official (free SD) livestream to play in about 3 or 4 attempts (Windows XP and Mac). (However, I have been able to watch a couple matches on restreams.) I'm hoping to get the official stream working via reddit's bookmarklet and mplayer (Linux) for the upcoming season.
I could join the crowd and cry foul but in all honesty, I'm a paying customer. I'm a poor student who hardly affords any fun after my rent/school books (every course is like 500$ in books) yet I gladly pay for GomTV. Not because I can watch HQ live but because they need my support and I love the content they provide.
I believe it may have been pointed out once in the thread, but this system is pretty bad for teenagers with no money but want to watch it, and typically a teen that young cant stay up and watch the live stream 2 o clock in the morning.
however, this isn't really a problem with GSL as much as people that don't have any means of purchasing it. the only thing that these people can do is try and watch the stream, and hope the ads might help with the expenses. But as I said before, it's damn near impossible to actually watch that early in the morning.
My standing on the issue is that it is needed, but only because no sponsor pays for the stream. which I find interesting because having such a crazy prize pool means the sponsor for the event has a lot of cash they can spare.
It probably will get to the point that the sponsor will pay for the stream expenses so we don't have too. Which will make everyone happy, but that seems a ways off since it's already season 5 and vods, stream still costs money.
On January 31 2011 06:30 StarBrift wrote: It absolutely cuts exposure for the GSL. But it's the path they've chosen to go as worldwide streaming is not free and they have to finance it somehow. Hopefully they can get sponsors abroad and have a high quality free stream + vods in the future.
I really don't understand why GSL haven't implemented commercials for the foreign stream already. On the live stream they have ample time to add a ton of commercials in between games, and they could attach commercials to the VODs aswell.
I think pay to watch should be the last resort, they really need to explore other sources of revenues first (SMALL HINT: COMMERCIALS/SPONSORS!).
the OP seems to frame most of his argument around what gom should be doing to promote esports but don't forget its our individual duties to promote esports as well. the only way esports can be grow is if companies see it as a profitable venture. this includes the sponsors and providers. we need to contribute our part, running a global stream is by no means cheap. gom has not only given us an increasingly better quality stream with better games each season but its getting cheaper and cheaper every season. because they found sponsors, the price went down to 10 dollars a month and if you buy now its only 5 bucks. you get so much content and dont have to plan your sleeping around it. its well worth it. 5 bucks is the equivalent of one cheap sandwich. so just skip one meal and your even.
It should eventually go to free VoD's with other extra content to supply value to the subscription. But at this current time, there is not a large enough foreign market to sustain running and maintaining the infrastructure required to stream all over the world. So they need to scrap money together every way they can in order to better the organization. The quicker more people show interest in the GSL the quicker GOM can move things likes VoD's into the free realm, but as of now they need the money and VoD's are a good reason for many people to purchase the subscription.
Sponsorship is great, but they will only get sponsors if they can assure a viewer count for the investor, which is not there yet. Team Liquid is a microcosm. I would love this to blow up and be successful, but it is going to be a slow burn and you are going to have to make the environment more suitable for a larger market in what little ways you can. Tell you friends, family, anyone about competitive SC2. If you are part of another forum, create a GSL or Team Liquid thread.
If you want to build a stronger e-sports scene, you need to spread the creep of interest over EVERYTHING. We can see that the Korean experts do not tend to do this, but as foreigners, we link our passions together with our creep. We are Zer-....er....GSL watchers!
On February 01 2011 03:49 TheGiftedApe wrote: The answer here is obvious imo:
Pay per View = Lower viewer counts, but Gom makes more profit in the short term.
Free per View = Higher Viewer counts, less profit in the short term, (more profit in the long term from sponsors and advertisers though)
I think there's a lot of assumptions in that post that you're just glossing over. What are GOM's total viewership on their VODs? I'm at work but I'd assume a Ro16 game gets somewhere between 30,000 - 70,000 views. How many views do you think it would get if it was free?
Now, do you think the costs associated with streaming content for free to those users could be supported by completely untargeted, global ads? And do you think they would end up further ahead this year if they went that route, or stuck with the $10 / season model? At what point does the profit / season cross over that threshold? I don't think it's as cut and dry as "more profit in the long term".
The foreign market isn't even on a sponsor's radar, so we can ignore that. Advertising is of course something GOM is looking at. But I don't think you can just say "GOM, if you took a loss to provide free content now, you'd make a 50% return by 2012." It's not that simple. It's a pretty huge risk. I think GOM is playing it right.
We really have to stop focusing on GOM per say, but rather the reasons why MBC and OGN have no rights to broadcasting Starcraft 2.
With MBC and OGN, you would finally have: 1) Free Games on Youtube 2) More Prize pools (2 or 3 tournaments with 40-50k prizes rather than 1 tournament) 3) Televised games, bigger fanclubs and better growth.
GOM is right in making people pay for streams (NHL/NFL/NBA does it too) However, GOM is wrong in preventing their game from growing by barring other major companies from televising it.
Starcraft 2 has a very decent chance of getting exposure outside of Korea because its new and shiny, but we're blowing it in a very critical moment.
Just my 2 cents.
You know those OGN/MBC VODs were all pirated, right? They just didn't care.
Yes and GOM cares. They actively take down the VODs from youtube.
...which is the whole point. If the whole reason for the payment is because of the VODs hosted by GOM, then just let youtube take care of it.
GOMtv cares because they're catering to a global audience. OGN/MBC don't care because their business model is purely focused on Korea. If they ever tried distributing their content to other countries, you can bet they'd be flexing their IP rights as well and having that pirated content taken down.
GOM cares because they see the potential of what Starcraft 2 can be in terms of audiences. They've seen it in the GOM MSL days (5 seasons) and wanted to expand into SC1 to take advantage of it. That's fine.
But this time, because they are the only one allowed to Starcraft 2 contents, there won't be that many people who will be exposed to it.
OGN made people pay tickets for a Finals, but stopped (I wonder why).
Do you think the average American gamer is more likely to know about the GSL or OSL?
Obviously GOM stands to make more money THIS YEAR if they charge per access, that's the whole point of what I was trying to say, while Making viewers PAY now is good for the short term success of GOM, the Bigger picture is that this will never go mainstream if it's a pay to access premium. Gom is taking the road of, we want money now, instead of taking the long-term road of giving it away for free and charging advertisers/sponsors.
and your average american knows way more about GSL, than OSL, as yoru average American doesn't remember that starcraft1 exists.
On February 01 2011 08:02 stangstang wrote: People should also stop bringing up the "can't watch live cause its on at 2am" argument. The world does not revolve around North America.
The whole time thing is irrelevant for an "E"-sport. And the talk of restreaming is retarded. Hello, what is a VOD if not a "re-stream".
There is enough SC2 content out there for casual and pro alike. Just because GOM is charging for content is not going to keep people away from SC2. Some of you make it seem like GOM is keeping SC2 hidden and away from new players.
And I've paid for a subscription every season since GSL3 and think it's a great deal.
On January 31 2011 06:30 StarBrift wrote: It absolutely cuts exposure for the GSL. But it's the path they've chosen to go as worldwide streaming is not free and they have to finance it somehow. Hopefully they can get sponsors abroad and have a high quality free stream + vods in the future.
I really don't understand why GSL haven't implemented commercials for the foreign stream already. On the live stream they have ample time to add a ton of commercials in between games, and they could attach commercials to the VODs aswell.
I think pay to watch should be the last resort, they really need to explore other sources of revenues first (SMALL HINT: COMMERCIALS/SPONSORS!).
If you look at the GSTL pricing model, it seems like it's gonna be cheaper ($5) with supporting ads. I honestly wouldn't be surprised if GOM eventually managed to switch over to an ad-only model, but that model only works if you actually have advertisers. Up until now, GOM hasn't had any foreign advertising, hence the premium package for services at GOMtv.net.
On January 31 2011 06:30 mprs wrote: I think people can still watch SQ live for free, which isn't too bad...
Not VODs.
I think its an awful policy that shows very little understanding of how to grow a sport. Historically things like baseball became much bigger when they began to give out content for free (like when baseball was first put on the radio).
Wow. You think because something is on the radio it's free? Those things they play between half innings in baseball games on the radio are called "commercials" and are paid for by "advertisers".
Find enough advertisers willing to pay GOM for the right to play commercials between games and then the GSL content will be "free".
Of course, then people will complain about all the commercials between the games and how it's ruining SC2.
On January 31 2011 06:30 StarBrift wrote: It absolutely cuts exposure for the GSL. But it's the path they've chosen to go as worldwide streaming is not free and they have to finance it somehow. Hopefully they can get sponsors abroad and have a high quality free stream + vods in the future.
I really don't understand why GSL haven't implemented commercials for the foreign stream already. On the live stream they have ample time to add a ton of commercials in between games, and they could attach commercials to the VODs aswell.
I think pay to watch should be the last resort, they really need to explore other sources of revenues first (SMALL HINT: COMMERCIALS/SPONSORS!).
They haven't done it yet because its really hard to convince companies that advertising with your channel/stream/whatever is going to be beneficial to them and worth the investment, particularly on a regular basis rather than a one-off event. Companies pay many millions to have their company names and logos on F1 cars because hundreds of millions of people worldwide watch F1 races, unless GOM can drum up significant viewing figures then comapnies won't see the return on their investment. I'm not saying they have to have similar viewing figures to F1 or any other sport, but significant enough in their own rights to make it worthwhlie.
I'm sure that GOM would like to take this route, as people have already said having the streams and VODs for 'free' would encourage greater viewer numbers, but there's the immediate costs of bandwidth and running the shows which, if the figures do not increase to the point where many advertisers take an interest, could put the show out of business.
On January 31 2011 06:30 StarBrift wrote: It absolutely cuts exposure for the GSL. But it's the path they've chosen to go as worldwide streaming is not free and they have to finance it somehow. Hopefully they can get sponsors abroad and have a high quality free stream + vods in the future.
I really don't understand why GSL haven't implemented commercials for the foreign stream already. On the live stream they have ample time to add a ton of commercials in between games, and they could attach commercials to the VODs aswell.
I think pay to watch should be the last resort, they really need to explore other sources of revenues first (SMALL HINT: COMMERCIALS/SPONSORS!).
They haven't done it yet because its really hard to convince companies that advertising with your channel/stream/whatever is going to be beneficial to them and worth the investment, particularly on a regular basis rather than a one-off event. Companies pay many millions to have their company names and logos on F1 cars because hundreds of millions of people worldwide watch F1 races, unless GOM can drum up significant viewing figures then comapnies won't see the return on their investment. I'm not saying they have to have similar viewing figures to F1 or any other sport, but significant enough in their own rights to make it worthwhlie.
I'm sure that GOM would like to take this route, as people have already said having the streams and VODs for 'free' would encourage greater viewer numbers, but there's the immediate costs of bandwidth and running the shows which, if the figures do not increase to the point where many advertisers take an interest, could put the show out of business.
Aren't they already doing this? I thought it was $10 for the VODs with ads and $20 for the ones without.
On January 31 2011 06:30 StarBrift wrote: It absolutely cuts exposure for the GSL. But it's the path they've chosen to go as worldwide streaming is not free and they have to finance it somehow. Hopefully they can get sponsors abroad and have a high quality free stream + vods in the future.
I really don't understand why GSL haven't implemented commercials for the foreign stream already. On the live stream they have ample time to add a ton of commercials in between games, and they could attach commercials to the VODs aswell.
I think pay to watch should be the last resort, they really need to explore other sources of revenues first (SMALL HINT: COMMERCIALS/SPONSORS!).
They haven't done it yet because its really hard to convince companies that advertising with your channel/stream/whatever is going to be beneficial to them and worth the investment, particularly on a regular basis rather than a one-off event. Companies pay many millions to have their company names and logos on F1 cars because hundreds of millions of people worldwide watch F1 races, unless GOM can drum up significant viewing figures then comapnies won't see the return on their investment. I'm not saying they have to have similar viewing figures to F1 or any other sport, but significant enough in their own rights to make it worthwhlie.
I'm sure that GOM would like to take this route, as people have already said having the streams and VODs for 'free' would encourage greater viewer numbers, but there's the immediate costs of bandwidth and running the shows which, if the figures do not increase to the point where many advertisers take an interest, could put the show out of business.
Aren't they already doing this? I thought it was $10 for the VODs with ads and $20 for the ones without.
You would be mistaken. GSL January (Season 4) was $10 for ad-less VODs and HQ stream. However, it seems like GSTL February will be just $5 with advertisements in VODs? That's what the premium package messaging says, anyway.
On January 31 2011 06:30 StarBrift wrote: It absolutely cuts exposure for the GSL. But it's the path they've chosen to go as worldwide streaming is not free and they have to finance it somehow. Hopefully they can get sponsors abroad and have a high quality free stream + vods in the future.
I really don't understand why GSL haven't implemented commercials for the foreign stream already. On the live stream they have ample time to add a ton of commercials in between games, and they could attach commercials to the VODs aswell.
I think pay to watch should be the last resort, they really need to explore other sources of revenues first (SMALL HINT: COMMERCIALS/SPONSORS!).
They haven't done it yet because its really hard to convince companies that advertising with your channel/stream/whatever is going to be beneficial to them and worth the investment, particularly on a regular basis rather than a one-off event. Companies pay many millions to have their company names and logos on F1 cars because hundreds of millions of people worldwide watch F1 races, unless GOM can drum up significant viewing figures then comapnies won't see the return on their investment. I'm not saying they have to have similar viewing figures to F1 or any other sport, but significant enough in their own rights to make it worthwhlie.
I'm sure that GOM would like to take this route, as people have already said having the streams and VODs for 'free' would encourage greater viewer numbers, but there's the immediate costs of bandwidth and running the shows which, if the figures do not increase to the point where many advertisers take an interest, could put the show out of business.
Aren't they already doing this? I thought it was $10 for the VODs with ads and $20 for the ones without.
I mean wholly paid for by advertisments, rather than the partial model there.
With that said though, I'll happily wager a significant amount of money that the moment after GOM switch to this (assuming they do of course) that Starcraft related forums all over the internet will explode with whining about how the adverts are destroying E-sports and ruining SC2 and how everything would be so much better of they just removed the ads.
On January 31 2011 06:30 StarBrift wrote: It absolutely cuts exposure for the GSL. But it's the path they've chosen to go as worldwide streaming is not free and they have to finance it somehow. Hopefully they can get sponsors abroad and have a high quality free stream + vods in the future.
I really don't understand why GSL haven't implemented commercials for the foreign stream already. On the live stream they have ample time to add a ton of commercials in between games, and they could attach commercials to the VODs aswell.
I think pay to watch should be the last resort, they really need to explore other sources of revenues first (SMALL HINT: COMMERCIALS/SPONSORS!).
They haven't done it yet because its really hard to convince companies that advertising with your channel/stream/whatever is going to be beneficial to them and worth the investment, particularly on a regular basis rather than a one-off event. Companies pay many millions to have their company names and logos on F1 cars because hundreds of millions of people worldwide watch F1 races, unless GOM can drum up significant viewing figures then comapnies won't see the return on their investment. I'm not saying they have to have similar viewing figures to F1 or any other sport, but significant enough in their own rights to make it worthwhlie.
I'm sure that GOM would like to take this route, as people have already said having the streams and VODs for 'free' would encourage greater viewer numbers, but there's the immediate costs of bandwidth and running the shows which, if the figures do not increase to the point where many advertisers take an interest, could put the show out of business.
Aren't they already doing this? I thought it was $10 for the VODs with ads and $20 for the ones without.
I mean wholly paid for by advertisments, rather than the partial model there.
With that said though, I'll happily wager a significant amount of money that the moment after GOM switch to this (assuming they do of course) that Starcraft related forums all over the internet will explode with whining about how the adverts are destroying E-sports and ruining SC2 and how everything would be so much better of they just removed the ads.
No one bitches about MLG having ads, or even about the Korean ads during BW casts. The closest you'll get to that is people making fun of them.
The SQ quality live is like 240p on youtube, probably worse it feels like. I honestly can barely stand it, but I'm not going to pay money for something I barely watch live.
No point in buying VOD's, I spoil the games for myself I dont watch anyways.
On January 31 2011 06:30 StarBrift wrote: It absolutely cuts exposure for the GSL. But it's the path they've chosen to go as worldwide streaming is not free and they have to finance it somehow. Hopefully they can get sponsors abroad and have a high quality free stream + vods in the future.
I really don't understand why GSL haven't implemented commercials for the foreign stream already. On the live stream they have ample time to add a ton of commercials in between games, and they could attach commercials to the VODs aswell.
I think pay to watch should be the last resort, they really need to explore other sources of revenues first (SMALL HINT: COMMERCIALS/SPONSORS!).
If you look at the GSTL pricing model, it seems like it's gonna be cheaper ($5) with supporting ads. I honestly wouldn't be surprised if GOM eventually managed to switch over to an ad-only model, but that model only works if you actually have advertisers. Up until now, GOM hasn't had any foreign advertising, hence the premium package for services at GOMtv.net.
Wait they are making people pay for $5 for GSTL? its a week of games, thats absolutely pathetic.
On January 31 2011 06:30 StarBrift wrote: It absolutely cuts exposure for the GSL. But it's the path they've chosen to go as worldwide streaming is not free and they have to finance it somehow. Hopefully they can get sponsors abroad and have a high quality free stream + vods in the future.
I really don't understand why GSL haven't implemented commercials for the foreign stream already. On the live stream they have ample time to add a ton of commercials in between games, and they could attach commercials to the VODs aswell.
I think pay to watch should be the last resort, they really need to explore other sources of revenues first (SMALL HINT: COMMERCIALS/SPONSORS!).
If you look at the GSTL pricing model, it seems like it's gonna be cheaper ($5) with supporting ads. I honestly wouldn't be surprised if GOM eventually managed to switch over to an ad-only model, but that model only works if you actually have advertisers. Up until now, GOM hasn't had any foreign advertising, hence the premium package for services at GOMtv.net.
Wait they are making people pay for $5 for GSTL? its a week of games, thats absolutely pathetic.
They've streamed team leagues/events in the past for free. Realistically its $5 to pay for the VOD hosting.
Personally I would never pay a PENNY to watch one month's worth of sc games. Not a fucking penny. I'd rather watch replays or sc1 or something, and I've been watching starcraft since july won his golden mouse. If they want it to get popular they would treat it as an actual sport and not some money milking machine. They're trying to milk as much money as they can from people, and IMO it not going to work IMO. I don't know how many people subscribe to the GSL, but I can tell you they would have a lot more people interested in the sport if they made it free.
why do ppl keep asking about this, theres been so many topics about this already. Why do you need someone elses approval to decide? If you enjoy the games enough and don't wanna stay up late, and/or would like HQ. Then pay the simple $10. I
Personally, I pay for the $10 ticket because I like to watch when I wake up rather than stay up later than I'd prefer to watch. Not to mention HQ is better quality in a VOD than live . and i can skip parts that boring. $10 for a ton of games is awesome
On February 01 2011 09:26 Fruscainte wrote: No point in buying VOD's, I spoil the games for myself I dont watch anyways.
Clearly, you're not an example of e-sports' target market, let alone GOM's.
I think we're all examples of e-sports' target market merely by being fans of the game. I don't buy the VODs either and I don't watch games I spoil for myself unless I hear they're spectacular (which they usually aren't).
The animosity that the buyers of the VODs in this thread have toward the people who haven't purchased them is insane. We're all on the same team here.
A perfect example of a true Starcraft fan is Manifesto7. From an interview with Artosis in 2009 (which is no longer available), he stated that he buys: "Hite Beer, CJ Rice, KTF Phone Service and banks with Shinhan Bank"
Whether or not he buys the VODs from GOM (I assume he does), the fact that he actively purchases products from sponsors of StarCraft tournaments ensures the livelihood of the scene.
I personally bought a new computer last year and without any questions went with an Intel processor. Why? Because they sponsor StarCraft tournaments. The fact of the matter is that sponsors are not, and should not be lost unto westerners. I would gladly purchase from tournament sponsors whenever convenient, and in that sense it would be a Win-Win. Companies just need to figure that out so that we can stopped being charged for the tournaments themselves.
On January 31 2011 06:30 StarBrift wrote: It absolutely cuts exposure for the GSL. But it's the path they've chosen to go as worldwide streaming is not free and they have to finance it somehow. Hopefully they can get sponsors abroad and have a high quality free stream + vods in the future.
I really don't understand why GSL haven't implemented commercials for the foreign stream already. On the live stream they have ample time to add a ton of commercials in between games, and they could attach commercials to the VODs aswell.
I think pay to watch should be the last resort, they really need to explore other sources of revenues first (SMALL HINT: COMMERCIALS/SPONSORS!).
If you look at the GSTL pricing model, it seems like it's gonna be cheaper ($5) with supporting ads. I honestly wouldn't be surprised if GOM eventually managed to switch over to an ad-only model, but that model only works if you actually have advertisers. Up until now, GOM hasn't had any foreign advertising, hence the premium package for services at GOMtv.net.
Wait they are making people pay for $5 for GSTL? its a week of games, thats absolutely pathetic.
You don't think a week of games is worth $5? Thats less than an hour of work at any job (minimum wage is at least $7.25 in the US) and would probably be spent at starbucks. I'm willing to sacrifice one frappacino for homemade coffee and a week of GSTL.
The prices are so dirt cheap I don't see what the problem is.
On January 31 2011 06:30 StarBrift wrote: It absolutely cuts exposure for the GSL. But it's the path they've chosen to go as worldwide streaming is not free and they have to finance it somehow. Hopefully they can get sponsors abroad and have a high quality free stream + vods in the future.
I really don't understand why GSL haven't implemented commercials for the foreign stream already. On the live stream they have ample time to add a ton of commercials in between games, and they could attach commercials to the VODs aswell.
I think pay to watch should be the last resort, they really need to explore other sources of revenues first (SMALL HINT: COMMERCIALS/SPONSORS!).
If you look at the GSTL pricing model, it seems like it's gonna be cheaper ($5) with supporting ads. I honestly wouldn't be surprised if GOM eventually managed to switch over to an ad-only model, but that model only works if you actually have advertisers. Up until now, GOM hasn't had any foreign advertising, hence the premium package for services at GOMtv.net.
Wait they are making people pay for $5 for GSTL? its a week of games, thats absolutely pathetic.
They've streamed team leagues/events in the past for free. Realistically its $5 to pay for the VOD hosting.
Really? Let's say 100 people pay the GSTL and watch the games. They aren't going to "balance even" on $500. They will make money on this no matter how much they charge. Realistically, 500+ people will probably pay to watch the videos; so I can't imagine it's entirely for VOD hosting.
Now, if GOMtv were bringing in funds for a future tournament, increasing the prize pool, advertising, etc. Those things would seem more likely for charging $5 on the GSTL broadcasting.
On February 01 2011 08:55 UruzuNine wrote: If you look at the GSTL pricing model, it seems like it's gonna be cheaper ($5) with supporting ads. I honestly wouldn't be surprised if GOM eventually managed to switch over to an ad-only model, but that model only works if you actually have advertisers. Up until now, GOM hasn't had any foreign advertising, hence the premium package for services at GOMtv.net.
Wait they are making people pay for $5 for GSTL? its a week of games, thats absolutely pathetic.
Could you explain to me how roughly 2 hours per match, 7 matches (i.e. ~14 hours of content) isn't worth $5? How much money do you spend on a single 2-hour-long movie ticket?
Just trying to gauge how pathetic I am for spending $12 to see TRON: Legacy in 3D.
On February 01 2011 08:55 UruzuNine wrote: If you look at the GSTL pricing model, it seems like it's gonna be cheaper ($5) with supporting ads. I honestly wouldn't be surprised if GOM eventually managed to switch over to an ad-only model, but that model only works if you actually have advertisers. Up until now, GOM hasn't had any foreign advertising, hence the premium package for services at GOMtv.net.
Wait they are making people pay for $5 for GSTL? its a week of games, thats absolutely pathetic.
Could you explain to me how roughly 2 hours per match, 7 matches (i.e. ~14 hours of content) isn't worth $5? How much money do you spend on a single 2-hour-long movie ticket?
Just trying to gauge how pathetic I am for spending $12 to see TRON: Legacy in 3D.
I think I can explain this. I've watched literally hundreds of professional brood war games over the past seven years. Probably over a thousand to be completely honest, if you include replays. How much did I pay for those? $0. And they were at least as entertaining as GSL vods, if not more so.
On February 01 2011 09:50 Lucid90 wrote: Personally I would never pay a PENNY to watch one month's worth of sc games. Not a fucking penny. I'd rather watch replays or sc1 or something, and I've been watching starcraft since july won his golden mouse. If they want it to get popular they would treat it as an actual sport and not some money milking machine. They're trying to milk as much money as they can from people, and IMO it not going to work IMO. I don't know how many people subscribe to the GSL, but I can tell you they would have a lot more people interested in the sport if they made it free.
I take it you've never had a job before, since you don't seem to value the importance of earning a paycheque. The people at GOM aren't working for charity, they're working to support their families. Call it a "money milking machine" if you want and watch pirated SC:BW VODs on YouTube or wherever, but don't try to pretend like you actually care for the longevity of e-sports.
It hurts my head to see how many kids just want to get everything for free, and make their complaints while hiding behind the self-righteous concept of "furthering e-sports," even though their selfish suggestions would prevent such an industry from ever being financially viable.
On January 31 2011 06:30 StarBrift wrote: It absolutely cuts exposure for the GSL. But it's the path they've chosen to go as worldwide streaming is not free and they have to finance it somehow. Hopefully they can get sponsors abroad and have a high quality free stream + vods in the future.
I really don't understand why GSL haven't implemented commercials for the foreign stream already. On the live stream they have ample time to add a ton of commercials in between games, and they could attach commercials to the VODs aswell.
I think pay to watch should be the last resort, they really need to explore other sources of revenues first (SMALL HINT: COMMERCIALS/SPONSORS!).
If you look at the GSTL pricing model, it seems like it's gonna be cheaper ($5) with supporting ads. I honestly wouldn't be surprised if GOM eventually managed to switch over to an ad-only model, but that model only works if you actually have advertisers. Up until now, GOM hasn't had any foreign advertising, hence the premium package for services at GOMtv.net.
Wait they are making people pay for $5 for GSTL? its a week of games, thats absolutely pathetic.
They've streamed team leagues/events in the past for free. Realistically its $5 to pay for the VOD hosting.
Really? Let's say 100 people pay the GSTL and watch the games. They aren't going to "balance even" on $500. They will make money on this no matter how much they charge. Realistically, 500+ people will probably pay to watch the videos; so I can't imagine it's entirely for VOD hosting.
Now, if GOMtv were bringing in funds for a future tournament, increasing the prize pool, advertising, etc. Those things would seem more likely for charging $5 on the GSTL broadcasting.
Have you seen the quality of the stream S1 and now? That should speak for itself. There are still issues yes but the streaming has improved quite well and going from 50 dollars to 10 in less than half a year. I don't know what you can think of that then.
People just whine because they want better content from GOM while they're doing everything they can to improve. GOM listens to the community which is something what distinguishes them from KeSPA for the better but they also have faults which KeSPA does better (promotion of matches / event planning etc).
Anyone who plays/watches/follows/does anything Starcraft related knows about the GSL. How much exposure do you want? If it was absolutely free it would still have the same word-of-mouth it has now.
On February 01 2011 08:55 UruzuNine wrote: If you look at the GSTL pricing model, it seems like it's gonna be cheaper ($5) with supporting ads. I honestly wouldn't be surprised if GOM eventually managed to switch over to an ad-only model, but that model only works if you actually have advertisers. Up until now, GOM hasn't had any foreign advertising, hence the premium package for services at GOMtv.net.
Wait they are making people pay for $5 for GSTL? its a week of games, thats absolutely pathetic.
Could you explain to me how roughly 2 hours per match, 7 matches (i.e. ~14 hours of content) isn't worth $5? How much money do you spend on a single 2-hour-long movie ticket?
Just trying to gauge how pathetic I am for spending $12 to see TRON: Legacy in 3D.
I think I can explain this. I've watched literally hundreds of professional brood war games over the past seven years. Probably over a thousand to be completely honest, if you include replays. How much did I pay for those? $0. And they were at least as entertaining as GSL vods, if not more so.
That's how it's not worth the money.
Professional Brood War games? Oh, you mean all that pirated OGN/MBC content you watched on YouTube? I guess that's fine, since those Korean broadcasters never had any intention of distributing their content internationally anyway. However, you really don't have a valid argument if all you're banking on is the fact that you can get pirated content for free.
As for replays: http://www.sc2replayed.com/ or any of the many other SC2 replay sites. Problem solved. Besides, I don't recall GOM ever asking money for replay files.
On February 01 2011 09:50 Lucid90 wrote: Personally I would never pay a PENNY to watch one month's worth of sc games. Not a fucking penny. I'd rather watch replays or sc1 or something, and I've been watching starcraft since july won his golden mouse. If they want it to get popular they would treat it as an actual sport and not some money milking machine. They're trying to milk as much money as they can from people, and IMO it not going to work IMO. I don't know how many people subscribe to the GSL, but I can tell you they would have a lot more people interested in the sport if they made it free.
I take it you've never had a job before, since you don't seem to value the importance of earning a paycheque. The people at GOM aren't working for charity, they're working to support their families. Call it a "money milking machine" if you want and watch pirated SC:BW VODs on YouTube or wherever, but don't try to pretend like you actually care for the longevity of e-sports.
It hurts my head to see how many kids just want to get everything for free, and make their complaints while hiding behind the self-righteous concept of "furthering e-sports," even though their selfish suggestions would prevent such an industry from ever being financially viable.
Are you serious? I'll tell you right now man, I have a job and I still think GOM should adopt a more professional model which is designed to open the doors to long term viewership. Obviously they aren't working for charity, the whole point is that they could be making money a different way not that they shouldn't be making any money at all.
I had to laugh at you calling "kids" (sounds like you have some issues there Mr. Adult) self-righteous, when the entire point of your post was you putting yourself up on a self-righteous pedestal, lecturing all children without jobs on the merits of wasting money on GOMTV's shortsighted and flawed business model. Ever heard of a win-win situation? That's what we're talking about here. Your condescending zero-sum attitude contributes nothing to what has already been suggested, because we're past looking at this in terms of black and white.
On February 01 2011 08:55 UruzuNine wrote: If you look at the GSTL pricing model, it seems like it's gonna be cheaper ($5) with supporting ads. I honestly wouldn't be surprised if GOM eventually managed to switch over to an ad-only model, but that model only works if you actually have advertisers. Up until now, GOM hasn't had any foreign advertising, hence the premium package for services at GOMtv.net.
Wait they are making people pay for $5 for GSTL? its a week of games, thats absolutely pathetic.
Could you explain to me how roughly 2 hours per match, 7 matches (i.e. ~14 hours of content) isn't worth $5? How much money do you spend on a single 2-hour-long movie ticket?
Just trying to gauge how pathetic I am for spending $12 to see TRON: Legacy in 3D.
I think I can explain this. I've watched literally hundreds of professional brood war games over the past seven years. Probably over a thousand to be completely honest, if you include replays. How much did I pay for those? $0. And they were at least as entertaining as GSL vods, if not more so.
That's how it's not worth the money.
Professional Brood War games? Oh, you mean all that pirated OGN/MBC content you watched on YouTube? I guess that's fine, since those Korean broadcasters never had any intention of distributing their content internationally anyway. However, you really don't have a valid argument if all you're banking on is the fact that you can get pirated content for free.
As for replays: http://www.sc2replayed.com/ or any of the many other SC2 replay sites. Problem solved. Besides, I don't recall GOM ever asking money for replay files.
If you read the past three pages of the thread, you'd see that OGN distributes their VODs for free on their site. Every professional BW match that was aired on OGN since 2004 is freely available to anybody all over the world. (This was Chill's point of contention as well). Furthermore, they don't mind restreams of their games as they're happening, which does more for the international brood war community's prosperity than any action GOM has taken in that regard towards the burgeoning international SC2 community (in my personal opinion, anyway).
GOM doesn't ask money for replays because they don't distribute replays, which makes game analysis much harder than it was in the hayday of BW, when you could open up the replays of high level tournament matches and see the builds specifically.
I'd rather watch free vods or replays without commentary than have to pay for ones with commentary any day. But that's just a personal opinion, as I've stated in previous posts. It's a shame they don't even offer that as an option.
Personally I would never pay a PENNY to watch one month's worth of sc games. Not a fucking penny. I'd rather watch replays or sc1 or something, and I've been watching starcraft since july won his golden mouse. If they want it to get popular they would treat it as an actual sport and not some money milking machine. They're trying to milk as much money as they can from people, and IMO it not going to work IMO. I don't know how many people subscribe to the GSL, but I can tell you they would have a lot more people interested in the sport if they made it free.
While I do agree that certainly paying to watch Starcraft II right now seems pretty bad, especially when a lot of the old BW viewers were somewhat spoiled since BW was always on TV, with Starcraft II, Gretech doesn't the same amount of power that OGN or MBC has ever had. While it certainly does feel unfair for the viewers, I do believe that it is somewhat justified, especially since this is done through the INTERNET and not through the broadcasting station where, although my knowledge on TV stations in limited, gains money through the amount of viewership usually and not by what every viewer pays. Sure more people may be interested in the sport if everything was free, and even Gretech understands that since they always have the first game be kind of a lure for the viewers to buy the VODs, but currently I feel that Gretech has very limited choices to have a economic success with Starcraft II via the internet. I may be wrong but that's just how I see it.
On February 01 2011 03:49 TheGiftedApe wrote: The answer here is obvious imo:
Pay per View = Lower viewer counts, but Gom makes more profit in the short term.
Free per View = Higher Viewer counts, less profit in the short term, (more profit in the long term from sponsors and advertisers though)
obviously GOM is worried about making money right now, and has lost sight of the bigger picture imo.
Also, to those who say, 10$/month is nothing, I beg to differ, 10$/mo is a LOT. Especially for a broke college student, not all of us have great jobs, or have parents with deep pockets who like to spoil their kids rotten with whatever they want. 10$/mo is almost as much as I pay for my cell phone bill, It's 1/4 of how much I pay for my Internet. 20$/year sounds like a fair price to me but 10$/mo is ludicrous.(and isn't it 15$/mo for gom anyways?) If I can get billions of hours of free content(youtube, hulu etc) and thousands of hours of free starcraft2 content by paying 40$/mo for internet, I shouldn't have to pay 10$/mo for a few GSL games. GOM would do better in the long term if they get more viewers, and make them watch a couple advertisements rather than trying to make all the viewers pay a fee, This business model has been reproduced all over the internet. Saying that the only way they can do it is by charging a fee is just simply not true.
Obviously you in denial or just dont have any clue. But it seems in common with all broke college students.
If you cant afford $10/m, you shouldn't "obvious" someone who runs an international company.
Try to get an investor to sing up on promoting new released game for 3-5(?) years.
On February 01 2011 09:50 Lucid90 wrote: Personally I would never pay a PENNY to watch one month's worth of sc games. Not a fucking penny. I'd rather watch replays or sc1 or something, and I've been watching starcraft since july won his golden mouse. If they want it to get popular they would treat it as an actual sport and not some money milking machine. They're trying to milk as much money as they can from people, and IMO it not going to work IMO. I don't know how many people subscribe to the GSL, but I can tell you they would have a lot more people interested in the sport if they made it free.
I take it you've never had a job before, since you don't seem to value the importance of earning a paycheque. The people at GOM aren't working for charity, they're working to support their families. Call it a "money milking machine" if you want and watch pirated SC:BW VODs on YouTube or wherever, but don't try to pretend like you actually care for the longevity of e-sports.
It hurts my head to see how many kids just want to get everything for free, and make their complaints while hiding behind the self-righteous concept of "furthering e-sports," even though their selfish suggestions would prevent such an industry from ever being financially viable.
Are you serious? I'll tell you right now man, I have a job and I still think GOM should adopt a more professional model which is designed to open the doors to long term viewership. Obviously they aren't working for charity, the whole point is that they could be making money a different way not that they shouldn't be making any money at all.
I had to laugh at you calling "kids" (sounds like you have some issues there Mr. Adult) self-righteous, when the entire point of your post was you putting yourself up on a self-righteous pedestal, lecturing all children without jobs on the merits of wasting money on GOMTV's shortsighted and flawed business model. Ever heard of a win-win situation? That's what we're talking about here. Your condescending zero-sum attitude contributes nothing to what has already been suggested, because we're past looking at this in terms of black and white.
Explain to me how a paid subscription model (a perfectly viable and rather common business model) is not "professional." When you get to that, I'll start taking you seriously.
As for my rant about kids wanting free things, just read through this thread. Nearly all the complaints regarding GOM's business model come from teenagers who want GOM content for free on their favourite video/streaming site (YouTube/Ustream/etc.) or college kids that don't want to spend even a penny. If I do have any issues, it's with people that claim to be supporting the e-sports industry while actively hindering its growth. That's not self-righteousness, that's getting annoyed at self-righteousness.
And back to the point about GOM's business model, the only other viable alternative would be free content paid for by advertising revenue. I encourage you to go back and read the posts addressing how advertising works. From a business perspective, GOM needs to be able to show potential advertisers that dumping money into GSL will actually provide a decent return on investment. GOM can't do that if they don't have a good quality stream and VODs with lots of viewers. Tasteless and Artosis have mentioned plenty of times that the money from premium packages goes directly toward improving the quality of the stream and the GOMtv website. Now with GSTL, it's possible we might begin to see some advertisements, and the cost of the premium package has consistently been dropping over time ($20 Open S1, $15 Open S2, $15 Open S3, $10 GSL Jan., and now only $5 for GSTL Feb.).
In summary, it's a progression toward advertisement-based revenue while simultaneously making sure that the company remains financially viable in the short term. As someone who actually cares about the future of e-sports, I don't mind putting my money where my mouth is -- literally.
On a final note, as far as "contributing to what has already been suggested" is concerned, your post also gets a big F for doing nothing more than getting butthurt over comments that weren't directed at you. If you actually want to contribute, how about supporting GOMtv by getting their premium package?
Its not about expanding e-sports its about paying bills. I assure you eventually VoD's will be free once they replace it on the subscription with some other premium service and have stabilized their communications infrastructure. SC2 has only been out for few months and GOM is really the only big player consistently hosting and streaming high level tournament play. GOM's focus now is to maximize early profit and reinvest it in their company to strengthen their position and expand their capabilities. Once they are comfortable with that, then its about spreading the e-sport love and SC2...there is no point in getting more people when the already have a hard enough time catering to the hardcore viewership en mass.
I think it should be free to watch including vods and if they decide they would like more money, they can always make the final event of the season pay per view? But I think that it's best if it was free and like that they'll get more viewers and possibly more sponsors.
Since OGN is on TV, do they show reruns of games? And thus the VOD's on the OGN site shouldn't be very popular at all? (i know my country's TV channels has VOD's like that as well, but they aren't very popular, since you can watch them on TV)
If so I would expect that the cost difference is huge, bandwidth isn't dirt cheap yet. Also they aren't very high quality either? (meaning even less bandwidth) I don't really think comparing the two is possible for these reasons then.
Until GOM starts broadcasting on TV I don't really see how we can complain about their business model and argue that the BW model is better. As far as I know making profits on just ad's on internet content isn't easy, unless you are big, and GOM isn't there yet. Youtube went on a loss for ages, and I think they are just now starting to be profitable.
Second point, are we really a good market to throw ad's at? The cheapness of many people here would suggest otherwise, and that we don't have a dedicated sponsor for us (foreign scene) after 4 seasons of GSL further suggests it. So everyone arguing that it costs too much and you want it free, well it *might* happen if you all pay up and show some economic muscle. As it is now, if you can't pay even $5 why would any company sponsor you and provide you content for free? Watching stuff with ad's isn't really free, it's all about what you buy after watching it.
On February 01 2011 09:50 Lucid90 wrote: Personally I would never pay a PENNY to watch one month's worth of sc games. Not a fucking penny. I'd rather watch replays or sc1 or something, and I've been watching starcraft since july won his golden mouse. If they want it to get popular they would treat it as an actual sport and not some money milking machine. They're trying to milk as much money as they can from people, and IMO it not going to work IMO. I don't know how many people subscribe to the GSL, but I can tell you they would have a lot more people interested in the sport if they made it free.
I take it you've never had a job before, since you don't seem to value the importance of earning a paycheque. The people at GOM aren't working for charity, they're working to support their families. Call it a "money milking machine" if you want and watch pirated SC:BW VODs on YouTube or wherever, but don't try to pretend like you actually care for the longevity of e-sports.
It hurts my head to see how many kids just want to get everything for free, and make their complaints while hiding behind the self-righteous concept of "furthering e-sports," even though their selfish suggestions would prevent such an industry from ever being financially viable.
Completely baseless. Anyone who actually watched bw will know that ogn/mbc stream their shit on internet through a ton of mediums. In fact, I remember Daum had VODS of bw stretching pretty far back. Yes, Gom doesn't work for a charity, and neither does KESPA/MBC/OGN. Besides Kespa (though I really doubt their claims about being a profitless company), these guys are out to make a profit. I generally don't see them charging people a ticket price to watch these games. Just admit it, Gom doesn't know how to do its shit. That's why despite having the largest prize pool in bw out of all the SLs, players still treated its tournies like a joke, last priority.
People has been taken things for granted with the Internet. You don't pay for porn, you don't pay for movie ( yeah, i know you have been pirated the latest movie, dont lie ), you don't pay for music. So have a courtesy and pay for GOMtv. They are totally worth it.
Right now, i believe that GOMtv tried to establish a good base of Koreans viewers before worrying about foreigners qq about unstable streams. They have their own priorities and pleasing you is not on top of the list.
On February 01 2011 10:50 Prime`Rib wrote: Right now, i believe that GOMtv tried to establish a good base of Koreans viewers before worrying about foreigners qq about unstable streams. They have their own priorities and pleasing you is not on top of the list.
not getting sucked into this thread but this is a retarded statement. If they don't care about pleasing me as a consumer of their product why in the fuck would I support them? derp?
On February 01 2011 08:55 UruzuNine wrote: If you look at the GSTL pricing model, it seems like it's gonna be cheaper ($5) with supporting ads. I honestly wouldn't be surprised if GOM eventually managed to switch over to an ad-only model, but that model only works if you actually have advertisers. Up until now, GOM hasn't had any foreign advertising, hence the premium package for services at GOMtv.net.
Wait they are making people pay for $5 for GSTL? its a week of games, thats absolutely pathetic.
Could you explain to me how roughly 2 hours per match, 7 matches (i.e. ~14 hours of content) isn't worth $5? How much money do you spend on a single 2-hour-long movie ticket?
Just trying to gauge how pathetic I am for spending $12 to see TRON: Legacy in 3D.
I think I can explain this. I've watched literally hundreds of professional brood war games over the past seven years. Probably over a thousand to be completely honest, if you include replays. How much did I pay for those? $0. And they were at least as entertaining as GSL vods, if not more so.
That's how it's not worth the money.
Professional Brood War games? Oh, you mean all that pirated OGN/MBC content you watched on YouTube? I guess that's fine, since those Korean broadcasters never had any intention of distributing their content internationally anyway. However, you really don't have a valid argument if all you're banking on is the fact that you can get pirated content for free.
As for replays: http://www.sc2replayed.com/ or any of the many other SC2 replay sites. Problem solved. Besides, I don't recall GOM ever asking money for replay files.
If you read the past three pages of the thread, you'd see that OGN distributes their VODs for free on their site. Every professional BW match that was aired on OGN since 2004 is freely available to anybody all over the world. (This was Chill's point of contention as well). Furthermore, they don't mind restreams of their games as they're happening, which does more for the international brood war community's prosperity than any action GOM has taken in that regard towards the burgeoning international SC2 community (in my personal opinion, anyway).
GOM doesn't ask money for replays because they don't distribute replays, which makes game analysis much harder than it was in the hayday of BW, when you could open up the replays of high level tournament matches and see the builds specifically.
I'd rather watch free vods or replays without commentary than have to pay for ones with commentary any day. But that's just a personal opinion, as I've stated in previous posts. It's a shame they don't even offer that as an option.
If I'm not mistaken, wasn't it mentioned that OGN added the VOD access in 2008? Erk, nevermind, I went back and saw the guy edited his post. Let me check the actual site.
The game is from 2004, but the VOD was added 2010-11-29. You claimed to have been watching BW for the past 7 years. Seeing as OGN's service appears to be new, I highly doubt you watched all those games from the OGN website. As far as I'm concerned, my statements stand. It's neat to see that OGN is now offering this new service (I mean, even Chill didn't know about it), but on that note, it's pretty pre-mature to criticize GOM for not doing the same when it's taken this long for OGN to do it.
On February 01 2011 10:50 Prime`Rib wrote: Right now, i believe that GOMtv tried to establish a good base of Koreans viewers before worrying about foreigners qq about unstable streams. They have their own priorities and pleasing you is not on top of the list.
not getting sucked into this thread but this is a retarded statement. If they don't care about pleasing me as a consumer of their product why in the fuck would I support them? derp?
Way to read my post and then interpret it with your own retardation.
On February 01 2011 08:55 UruzuNine wrote: If you look at the GSTL pricing model, it seems like it's gonna be cheaper ($5) with supporting ads. I honestly wouldn't be surprised if GOM eventually managed to switch over to an ad-only model, but that model only works if you actually have advertisers. Up until now, GOM hasn't had any foreign advertising, hence the premium package for services at GOMtv.net.
Wait they are making people pay for $5 for GSTL? its a week of games, thats absolutely pathetic.
Could you explain to me how roughly 2 hours per match, 7 matches (i.e. ~14 hours of content) isn't worth $5? How much money do you spend on a single 2-hour-long movie ticket?
Just trying to gauge how pathetic I am for spending $12 to see TRON: Legacy in 3D.
I think I can explain this. I've watched literally hundreds of professional brood war games over the past seven years. Probably over a thousand to be completely honest, if you include replays. How much did I pay for those? $0. And they were at least as entertaining as GSL vods, if not more so.
That's how it's not worth the money.
Professional Brood War games? Oh, you mean all that pirated OGN/MBC content you watched on YouTube? I guess that's fine, since those Korean broadcasters never had any intention of distributing their content internationally anyway. However, you really don't have a valid argument if all you're banking on is the fact that you can get pirated content for free.
As for replays: http://www.sc2replayed.com/ or any of the many other SC2 replay sites. Problem solved. Besides, I don't recall GOM ever asking money for replay files.
If you read the past three pages of the thread, you'd see that OGN distributes their VODs for free on their site. Every professional BW match that was aired on OGN since 2004 is freely available to anybody all over the world. (This was Chill's point of contention as well). Furthermore, they don't mind restreams of their games as they're happening, which does more for the international brood war community's prosperity than any action GOM has taken in that regard towards the burgeoning international SC2 community (in my personal opinion, anyway).
GOM doesn't ask money for replays because they don't distribute replays, which makes game analysis much harder than it was in the hayday of BW, when you could open up the replays of high level tournament matches and see the builds specifically.
I'd rather watch free vods or replays without commentary than have to pay for ones with commentary any day. But that's just a personal opinion, as I've stated in previous posts. It's a shame they don't even offer that as an option.
If I'm not mistaken, wasn't it mentioned that OGN added the VOD access in 2008? Erk, nevermind, I went back and saw the guy edited his post. Let me check the actual site.
The game is from 2004, but the VOD was added 2010-11-29. You claimed to have been watching BW for the past 7 years. Seeing as OGN's service appears to be new, I highly doubt you watched all those games from the OGN website. As far as I'm concerned, my statements stand. It's neat to see that OGN is now offering this new service (I mean, even Chill didn't know about it), but on that note, it's pretty pre-mature to criticize GOM for not doing the same when it's taken this long for OGN to do it.
Fair enough. But at least they weren't actively trying to abolish the resources that foreigners had to use to view their games during that time.
I think we can agree that hopefully GOM will find sources of income through advertisement that are sufficient to sustain the tournament sometime soon. Until then, I'll continue to purchase from the current sponsors like I always have and take that as enough contribution for now.
On February 01 2011 10:05 UruzuNine wrote: I take it you've never had a job before, since you don't seem to value the importance of earning a paycheque. The people at GOM aren't working for charity, they're working to support their families. Call it a "money milking machine" if you want and watch pirated SC:BW VODs on YouTube or wherever, but don't try to pretend like you actually care for the longevity of e-sports.
It hurts my head to see how many kids just want to get everything for free, and make their complaints while hiding behind the self-righteous concept of "furthering e-sports," even though their selfish suggestions would prevent such an industry from ever being financially viable.
Completely baseless. Anyone who actually watched bw will know that ogn/mbc stream their shit on internet through a ton of mediums. In fact, I remember Daum had VODS of bw stretching pretty far back. Yes, Gom doesn't work for a charity, and neither does KESPA/MBC/OGN. Besides Kespa (though I really doubt their claims about being a profitless company), these guys are out to make a profit. I generally don't see them charging people a ticket price to watch these games. Just admit it, Gom doesn't know how to do its shit. That's why despite having the largest prize pool in bw out of all the SLs, players still treated its tournies like a joke, last priority.
Daum is a search engine. Videos on Daum are like videos on Google Video or YouTube. Sure, you can find television episodes on YT and watch them, but they're still pirated content. That you assumed finding pirated VODs on Daum was "OGN/MBC streaming their content on the internet" leads me to believe that I can safely assume a lack of credibility.
The rest of your post doesn't have anything to do with GOM's business model, instead opting to bash the company's ability to run a tournament, even though in interviews players have been mostly positive about GOM's system.
On February 01 2011 08:55 UruzuNine wrote: If you look at the GSTL pricing model, it seems like it's gonna be cheaper ($5) with supporting ads. I honestly wouldn't be surprised if GOM eventually managed to switch over to an ad-only model, but that model only works if you actually have advertisers. Up until now, GOM hasn't had any foreign advertising, hence the premium package for services at GOMtv.net.
Wait they are making people pay for $5 for GSTL? its a week of games, thats absolutely pathetic.
Could you explain to me how roughly 2 hours per match, 7 matches (i.e. ~14 hours of content) isn't worth $5? How much money do you spend on a single 2-hour-long movie ticket?
Just trying to gauge how pathetic I am for spending $12 to see TRON: Legacy in 3D.
I think I can explain this. I've watched literally hundreds of professional brood war games over the past seven years. Probably over a thousand to be completely honest, if you include replays. How much did I pay for those? $0. And they were at least as entertaining as GSL vods, if not more so.
That's how it's not worth the money.
Professional Brood War games? Oh, you mean all that pirated OGN/MBC content you watched on YouTube? I guess that's fine, since those Korean broadcasters never had any intention of distributing their content internationally anyway. However, you really don't have a valid argument if all you're banking on is the fact that you can get pirated content for free.
As for replays: http://www.sc2replayed.com/ or any of the many other SC2 replay sites. Problem solved. Besides, I don't recall GOM ever asking money for replay files.
If you read the past three pages of the thread, you'd see that OGN distributes their VODs for free on their site. Every professional BW match that was aired on OGN since 2004 is freely available to anybody all over the world. (This was Chill's point of contention as well). Furthermore, they don't mind restreams of their games as they're happening, which does more for the international brood war community's prosperity than any action GOM has taken in that regard towards the burgeoning international SC2 community (in my personal opinion, anyway).
GOM doesn't ask money for replays because they don't distribute replays, which makes game analysis much harder than it was in the hayday of BW, when you could open up the replays of high level tournament matches and see the builds specifically.
I'd rather watch free vods or replays without commentary than have to pay for ones with commentary any day. But that's just a personal opinion, as I've stated in previous posts. It's a shame they don't even offer that as an option.
If I'm not mistaken, wasn't it mentioned that OGN added the VOD access in 2008? Erk, nevermind, I went back and saw the guy edited his post. Let me check the actual site.
The game is from 2004, but the VOD was added 2010-11-29. You claimed to have been watching BW for the past 7 years. Seeing as OGN's service appears to be new, I highly doubt you watched all those games from the OGN website. As far as I'm concerned, my statements stand. It's neat to see that OGN is now offering this new service (I mean, even Chill didn't know about it), but on that note, it's pretty pre-mature to criticize GOM for not doing the same when it's taken this long for OGN to do it.
Fair enough. But at least they weren't actively trying to abolish the resources that foreigners had to use to view their games during that time.
I think we can agree that hopefully GOM will find sources of income through advertisement that are sufficient to sustain the tournament sometime soon. Until then, I'll continue to purchase from the current sponsors like I always have and take that as enough contribution for now.
From a business perspective, it wouldn't make sense to dump resources into removing IP-related content from foreign websites when you aren't catering to those markets, so OGN/MBC inaction there isn't surprising to me. Same idea as to why there are so many clones of products in China with no repercussion; the products they're cloning are usually not offered in the country. GOM is different from OGN/MBC in that they distribute to a global audience. Can't say I blame GOM for exercising their IP rights.
On February 01 2011 10:50 Prime`Rib wrote: Right now, i believe that GOMtv tried to establish a good base of Koreans viewers before worrying about foreigners qq about unstable streams. They have their own priorities and pleasing you is not on top of the list.
not getting sucked into this thread but this is a retarded statement. If they don't care about pleasing me as a consumer of their product why in the fuck would I support them? derp?
Way to read my post and then interpret it with your own retardation.
people take things for granted on the internet, GOM doesn't care about us right now, they want to establish a Korean base. Pleasing us is not on the top of their list? hmm.. what did I miss?
The only retardation going on in this conversation is your inability to formulate a position that follows any reason and my inability to let you just merrily spew this garbage.
On January 31 2011 06:30 StarBrift wrote: It absolutely cuts exposure for the GSL. But it's the path they've chosen to go as worldwide streaming is not free and they have to finance it somehow. Hopefully they can get sponsors abroad and have a high quality free stream + vods in the future.
I really don't understand why GSL haven't implemented commercials for the foreign stream already. On the live stream they have ample time to add a ton of commercials in between games, and they could attach commercials to the VODs aswell.
I think pay to watch should be the last resort, they really need to explore other sources of revenues first (SMALL HINT: COMMERCIALS/SPONSORS!).
If you look at the GSTL pricing model, it seems like it's gonna be cheaper ($5) with supporting ads. I honestly wouldn't be surprised if GOM eventually managed to switch over to an ad-only model, but that model only works if you actually have advertisers. Up until now, GOM hasn't had any foreign advertising, hence the premium package for services at GOMtv.net.
Wait they are making people pay for $5 for GSTL? its a week of games, thats absolutely pathetic.
isn't the SQ stream free as usual? And 5$ for the HQ (if indeed the SQ is free for the GSTL too) is not bad compared to other tournaments. I believe MLG HQ is 10$ and that is only a weekend. Homestory Cup was 2.5$, but that was also only a weekend. So 5$ for a whole week ain't a bad deal. (and that makes 10$ for a whole month rather awesome)
On January 31 2011 06:30 StarBrift wrote: It absolutely cuts exposure for the GSL. But it's the path they've chosen to go as worldwide streaming is not free and they have to finance it somehow. Hopefully they can get sponsors abroad and have a high quality free stream + vods in the future.
I really don't understand why GSL haven't implemented commercials for the foreign stream already. On the live stream they have ample time to add a ton of commercials in between games, and they could attach commercials to the VODs aswell.
I think pay to watch should be the last resort, they really need to explore other sources of revenues first (SMALL HINT: COMMERCIALS/SPONSORS!).
They haven't done it yet because its really hard to convince companies that advertising with your channel/stream/whatever is going to be beneficial to them and worth the investment, particularly on a regular basis rather than a one-off event. Companies pay many millions to have their company names and logos on F1 cars because hundreds of millions of people worldwide watch F1 races, unless GOM can drum up significant viewing figures then comapnies won't see the return on their investment. I'm not saying they have to have similar viewing figures to F1 or any other sport, but significant enough in their own rights to make it worthwhlie.
I'm sure that GOM would like to take this route, as people have already said having the streams and VODs for 'free' would encourage greater viewer numbers, but there's the immediate costs of bandwidth and running the shows which, if the figures do not increase to the point where many advertisers take an interest, could put the show out of business.
Aren't they already doing this? I thought it was $10 for the VODs with ads and $20 for the ones without.
I mean wholly paid for by advertisments, rather than the partial model there.
With that said though, I'll happily wager a significant amount of money that the moment after GOM switch to this (assuming they do of course) that Starcraft related forums all over the internet will explode with whining about how the adverts are destroying E-sports and ruining SC2 and how everything would be so much better of they just removed the ads.
No one bitches about MLG having ads, or even about the Korean ads during BW casts. The closest you'll get to that is people making fun of them.
Actually, isn't MLG a rather nice example of how hard it is to get sponsoring? I believe the past 3 or 4 MLG's, it were the same sponsors (being a good thing ofc if you can retain them), but mostly even the same ads. + How many are there? Hot Buns, Old Spice, Those chips (Cheetos? can't recall brand) and that brand with the yeti-like mascotte. In an insane cycle. (really, the times i watch CNN the commercials aren't even that repetitive imho) And all clearly catering towards the US market. (well, at least not the European one, i've never seen any of those brands here, except for the chips)
I don't blame MLG, but it only is an indication of how absurdly hard it is to get marketing for a global public.
Too many people (i'm not directing this to you personally) seem to think an advertising model for something like GSL is easy while it's actually extremely hard.
It would be nice for a single GOM representative to perhaps explain the plan or come in here and adress the situation.
I do believe charging is the way to go, but it's like the movie "The Social Network" (I HOPE EVERYONE SAW THAT BECAUSE ITS AWESOME) anyway, in the movie his CFO wants to smash ads into everyones throats, and Mark says no its a bad idea because then its not cool and once it losses that, people won't move in and being a habit of being at the place. Plus with Koreans actually boycotting (so to speak) SC2 MBC I believe it is and other channels trying their hardest to stay away from it, it's a bad idea to start out going hey... Fuck you, pay now.
I believe it is to soon to charge, watch the movie and you will fully understand what I mean, plus they need to give you DL vods... jesus.
On February 01 2011 11:58 MERLIN. wrote: It would be nice for a single GOM representative to perhaps explain the plan or come in here and adress the situation.
I do believe charging is the way to go, but it's like the movie "The Social Network" (I HOPE EVERYONE SAW THAT BECAUSE ITS AWESOME) anyway, in the movie his CFO wants to smash ads into everyones throats, and Mark says no its a bad idea because then its not cool and once it losses that, people won't move in and being a habit of being at the place. Plus with Koreans actually boycotting (so to speak) SC2 MBC I believe it is and other channels trying their hardest to stay away from it, it's a bad idea to start out going hey... Fuck you, pay now.
I believe it is to soon to charge, watch the movie and you will fully understand what I mean, plus they need to give you DL vods... jesus.
It's actually that kind of thinking that created the internet bubble. Nobody cared really about revenue streams, the idea was grow big first, we'll see later for profits. But admittedly, you have no other choice with a social network, you need an immense critical scale since the value of your product offering is directly and strongly related to the amoubnt of people using it. Also, the final result is way better than just a side you can put ads on, you can do very precise targeting since you know everything about the user, making your adscpace way more valuable.
But that's not the case with the GSL, so why would they take such insane risks? Give them time to take a small step at a time, so they won't trip over their own feet, smashing their face into the ground. They'll soon be experimenting with part ad, part fee system. I bet that if that works out well (on the side of finding enough and good sponsors), they'll start experimenting with totally free access.
On February 01 2011 10:50 Prime`Rib wrote: Right now, i believe that GOMtv tried to establish a good base of Koreans viewers before worrying about foreigners qq about unstable streams. They have their own priorities and pleasing you is not on top of the list.
not getting sucked into this thread but this is a retarded statement. If they don't care about pleasing me as a consumer of their product why in the fuck would I support them? derp?
Way to read my post and then interpret it with your own retardation.
people take things for granted on the internet, GOM doesn't care about us right now, they want to establish a Korean base. Pleasing us is not on the top of their list? hmm.. what did I miss?
The only retardation going on in this conversation is your inability to formulate a position that follows any reason and my inability to let you just merrily spew this garbage.
eurf. Calm down. Its likely that GOM will stay the way it is. This is merely a discussion/
On February 01 2011 11:58 MERLIN. wrote: It would be nice for a single GOM representative to perhaps explain the plan or come in here and adress the situation.
I do believe charging is the way to go, but it's like the movie "The Social Network" (I HOPE EVERYONE SAW THAT BECAUSE ITS AWESOME) anyway, in the movie his CFO wants to smash ads into everyones throats, and Mark says no its a bad idea because then its not cool and once it losses that, people won't move in and being a habit of being at the place. Plus with Koreans actually boycotting (so to speak) SC2 MBC I believe it is and other channels trying their hardest to stay away from it, it's a bad idea to start out going hey... Fuck you, pay now.
I believe it is to soon to charge, watch the movie and you will fully understand what I mean, plus they need to give you DL vods... jesus.
Facebook did not create content. It let the users create content, which added value to the website. Your example would be better suited to a replay submission website wanting to charge for downloading replays. Its not applicable to GOMTV because they create their content.
They don't need to address the "situation" simply because some vocal members of the community think that because they get other things for free on the internet, that it should instantly apply to GSL.
On February 01 2011 11:58 MERLIN. wrote: It would be nice for a single GOM representative to perhaps explain the plan or come in here and adress the situation.
I do believe charging is the way to go, but it's like the movie "The Social Network" (I HOPE EVERYONE SAW THAT BECAUSE ITS AWESOME) anyway, in the movie his CFO wants to smash ads into everyones throats, and Mark says no its a bad idea because then its not cool and once it losses that, people won't move in and being a habit of being at the place. Plus with Koreans actually boycotting (so to speak) SC2 MBC I believe it is and other channels trying their hardest to stay away from it, it's a bad idea to start out going hey... Fuck you, pay now.
I believe it is to soon to charge, watch the movie and you will fully understand what I mean, plus they need to give you DL vods... jesus.
Facebook did not create content. It let the users create content, which added value to the website. Your example would be better suited to a replay submission website wanting to charge for downloading replays. Its not applicable to GOMTV because they create their content.
They don't need to address the "situation" simply because some vocal members of the community think that because they get other things for free on the internet, that it should instantly apply to GSL.
Both Facebook and GOM need the users. That's what he is trying to compare. If there is no growth then there is nothing (or at least a small fraction of what it can ever be).
I don't think its very expensive for the amount of content we get. Running things like that really isn't cheap they have to get some source of income other than ads. Besides, VODs don't have ads and I rarely stay up till 2-4 am to watch it. I had a few problems with the HQ stream for time to time (recurrent error x000072 or something) but no other complaints.
Honestly, I'm surprised by the quality of the tournament. They do things like introduce new maps independently from Blizzard, seed 4 foreigners into Code A (they could just not care like many bw leagues). I wish they'd post replays, but I understands the problem with that. I like the GSL and want to keep watching it anyways. They pay english casters...they care.
GOMtv needs to be a profitable business for it to work, it's pretty logical. That's the whole point of a fucking business. They can't really pass Korean ads here, so we have to pay minimal fees.
First GSLs were 15 then 10...now 5$ per month? big deal, you can share accounts anyway.
On February 01 2011 11:58 MERLIN. wrote: It would be nice for a single GOM representative to perhaps explain the plan or come in here and adress the situation.
I do believe charging is the way to go, but it's like the movie "The Social Network" (I HOPE EVERYONE SAW THAT BECAUSE ITS AWESOME) anyway, in the movie his CFO wants to smash ads into everyones throats, and Mark says no its a bad idea because then its not cool and once it losses that, people won't move in and being a habit of being at the place. Plus with Koreans actually boycotting (so to speak) SC2 MBC I believe it is and other channels trying their hardest to stay away from it, it's a bad idea to start out going hey... Fuck you, pay now.
I believe it is to soon to charge, watch the movie and you will fully understand what I mean, plus they need to give you DL vods... jesus.
Facebook did not create content. It let the users create content, which added value to the website. Your example would be better suited to a replay submission website wanting to charge for downloading replays. Its not applicable to GOMTV because they create their content.
They don't need to address the "situation" simply because some vocal members of the community think that because they get other things for free on the internet, that it should instantly apply to GSL.
Both Facebook and GOM need the users. That's what he is trying to compare. If there is no growth then there is nothing (or at least a small fraction of what it can ever be).
You could go compare it to a commercial sauna, they need users too. (actually, that comparison would be better because at least then in both cases the user is paying) Facebook needs users for different reasons than the GSL.
The amount of users on facebook directly influence how valuable facebook is to those same users. Since there is no point in joining a social network if none/not enough of the people you know are there. The value of the offer facebook makes is an S-curve with y=value, x=#users. The value the GSL offers compared to #users is very close to a flatline.
Ofc, on the profit side, it's a bit the other way round. GSL has quite some fixed costs, so to the more people they sell, the more it can be spread the higher their margin is on sales. So yes, there is a point for getting more people, but it only matters if it can be done without reducing revenue per user too much. But to have the same revenue of one user with ads as with payment method, you need to show him around 10k ads a month. Also, getting 10 times the amount of viewers and being able to show them all 1k ads per month (just for the math), you don't have the same profit as of that 1 user paying 10$, since you have to expand your capacity 10fold.
Also, switching the system is a gamble. If it doesn't work, it's hard to switch back due to expectations. (this thread actually proves it. :p)
Of all sporting/pay per view events I've seen, SC2 is the most entertaining - I'd gladly pay to watch good games and stay up all night - but I think it would put off newcomers. Advertising, endorsements and special PPV events, yeah - but I feel the GSL is too important to restrict to those viewers who can pay.
On February 01 2011 14:29 Steel wrote: First GSLs were 15 then 10...now 5$ per month?
$20, then $10. The team league is $5 but it's much shorter than a standard GSL
I wouldn't have a problem with the free stream if it wasn't so horrible quality. It's almost impossible to tell what goes on during battles, and the minimap is blurred to hell. It's the kind of quality that might have been acceptable in BW, but sc2 is a game that clearly was meant to be presented at a higher resolution
If they lowered the price of 25% I'd pay. I don't believe the current price is justifiable in terms of cost. Hell, if they had an intermediate option for half the price and half the quality I'd take it. I'm not watching for SUPER HD ZOMG QUALITY of a game, I'm watching for the commentary and action.
On February 01 2011 16:36 han_han wrote: If they lowered the price of 25% I'd pay. I don't believe the current price is justifiable in terms of cost. Hell, if they had an intermediate option for half the price and half the quality I'd take it. I'm not watching for SUPER HD ZOMG QUALITY of a game, I'm watching for the commentary and action.
Its $10 bucks man for like, hundreds of hours of content in HQ.
Our generation is so used to stealing or getting things for free that even bargains are too expensive for us.
In my opinion, GOM charging for the VODs severely limits the audience. I feel like they could make way more money from making them all free and expanding their audience while getting all of their revenue from advertising. I definitely have not done the market research, but I can say that having to pay ANYTHING to watch SC2 will instantly deter any average fan.
I personally refuse to pay for a ticket so that is at least one customer they have lost, and i consider myself to be directly in their target market. Since team liquid is the mecca of starcraft, it might seem like everyone is willing to fork over money every month just to watch SC2. I know several people however, that are casual fans that will absolutely NEVER pay for it. I think that GOM is totally killing the popularity of SC2 amongst the casual audience.
Money/profit comes with numbers. A sport needs numbers of fans to survive... far larger than the number of pro gamers.
You can't generate fans for a new sport by charging them season tickets to a sport they might not even like. They won't pay. You want to generate fans. Don't charge them.... charge the advertisers and sponsors. It is how sports works. Why are so many people in this thread thinking that paying is a good business model. Has anyone who agreed with the pay per view ever run an actual business?
And don't say they have to cover costs in the short term. Long term goals with the backing from blizzard shouldn't be a problem. Even with short term (year or so) of loss.
Next ten years of esports or longer... with potential for actual worldwide audiences..... should be greater than a short term gain.
On February 01 2011 16:36 han_han wrote: If they lowered the price of 25% I'd pay. I don't believe the current price is justifiable in terms of cost. Hell, if they had an intermediate option for half the price and half the quality I'd take it. I'm not watching for SUPER HD ZOMG QUALITY of a game, I'm watching for the commentary and action.
Its $10 bucks man for like, hundreds of hours of content in HQ.
Our generation is so used to stealing or getting things for free that even bargains are too expensive for us.
And what about the audiences who doesn't know about GSL?
On February 01 2011 16:36 han_han wrote: If they lowered the price of 25% I'd pay. I don't believe the current price is justifiable in terms of cost. Hell, if they had an intermediate option for half the price and half the quality I'd take it. I'm not watching for SUPER HD ZOMG QUALITY of a game, I'm watching for the commentary and action.
Its $10 bucks man for like, hundreds of hours of content in HQ.
Our generation is so used to stealing or getting things for free that even bargains are too expensive for us.
And what about the audiences who doesn't know about GSL?
Then they have tons of free content (65 VOD's a season~) to judge it and see if it's worth skippin a meal for. If they're even newer than that then theres loads more free content around here that they can also enjoy. Although it shouldn't be the gateway into SC2 spectating, GSL is definitely not restricting the amount of "new" viewers. Theres plenty of free content for "new" viewers to check it out, just about 2 games a day for an entire month or 13+ (at the minimum) hours of straight content to view. After checking out the free content they're no longer "new" viewers and can rightfully decide whether the GSL is for them or not. If it is, skip a meal, if it's not, then move on.
On February 01 2011 02:19 Heimatloser wrote: [...] i dont get it way so many people are willing to pay for content these days. [...]
Because contrary to what most of the internet generation believes, having access to the internet does not equal accessing everything for free. A decade of unregulated downloads, P2P and torrenting created that mindset. And I'm pretty sure you're wrong if you speak of "so many people"; most internet users, even those with a healthy wallet or paypal account are cheapskates with afore mentioned attitude. If GomTV wouldn't charge, it wouldn't exist in the form we know it today. Maybe there'd be a league just financed by sponsoring, but the quality would be abysmal and the future outlook bleak at best.
------- This is all off-topic, of course. Regarding the OP and the question asked there: I think we should be happy there's quality SC2 content at all. It's not as if GomTV had an unique position in a saturated market; they're basically holding the monopoly on high level SC2 league play with streams, VODs and commentary included.
Without GOM, we wouldn't be talking about the possibilty of introducing new people to the scene at all, because there would be no scene to begin with. Free, accessible content as a niche will follow once there's a whole market for this and some competition for GOM, but until then we should respect the pioneer work they're doing for the SC2 scene.
i dare to say that if GOMTV wouldnt charge, it would exist in a better form than we know it today
On February 01 2011 18:45 Bobgrimly wrote: Money/profit comes with numbers. A sport needs numbers of fans to survive... far larger than the number of pro gamers.
You can't generate fans for a new sport by charging them season tickets to a sport they might not even like. They won't pay. You want to generate fans. Don't charge them.... charge the advertisers and sponsors. It is how sports works. Why are so many people in this thread thinking that paying is a good business model. Has anyone who agreed with the pay per view ever run an actual business?
And don't say they have to cover costs in the short term. Long term goals with the backing from blizzard shouldn't be a problem. Even with short term (year or so) of loss.
Next ten years of esports or longer... with potential for actual worldwide audiences..... should be greater than a short term gain.
While that holds for some sports, there are enough out there who can't have it from that. Over here i can name several sports who almost never get anything televised and entrance to the event is to be paid. - boxing - volleybal (even though we have two teams who're top European level) - any soccer that isn't in the highest league. (second highest sometimes get a small recap at 11pm i believe)
Sure, their audiences are way way lower than the GSL already has. However, what i mentioned above were geographically very specific audiences (small country :p). On Global scale, you're aiming for a totally different type of sponsors and those have standards way higher up.
And as many people have said: you have 60+ vods/season to judge upon wether it's worth your money. (in the case you really never can see the livestream) So that argument really doesn't hold water.
Besides, all you people complaining you can't go check it out to see if it's worth it, none of you ever tries a new brand of any product? :s Never like "damn, always that extremely cheap coffee, i'll try a more expensive brand for once, just to see if it's really worth the difference? Since the situation is totally equivalent.
On February 01 2011 18:45 Bobgrimly wrote: Money/profit comes with numbers. A sport needs numbers of fans to survive... far larger than the number of pro gamers.
You can't generate fans for a new sport by charging them season tickets to a sport they might not even like. They won't pay. You want to generate fans. Don't charge them.... charge the advertisers and sponsors. It is how sports works. Why are so many people in this thread thinking that paying is a good business model. Has anyone who agreed with the pay per view ever run an actual business?
And don't say they have to cover costs in the short term. Long term goals with the backing from blizzard shouldn't be a problem. Even with short term (year or so) of loss.
Next ten years of esports or longer... with potential for actual worldwide audiences..... should be greater than a short term gain.
While that holds for some sports, there are enough out there who can't have it from that. Over here i can name several sports who almost never get anything televised and entrance to the event is to be paid. - boxing - volleybal (even though we have two teams who're top European level) - any soccer that isn't in the highest league. (second highest sometimes get a small recap at 11pm i believe)
Sure, their audiences are way way lower than the GSL already has. However, what i mentioned above were geographically very specific audiences (small country :p). On Global scale, you're aiming for a totally different type of sponsors and those have standards way higher up.
And as many people have said: you have 60+ vods/season to judge upon wether it's worth your money. (in the case you really never can see the livestream) So that argument really doesn't hold water.
Besides, all you people complaining you can't go check it out to see if it's worth it, none of you ever tries a new brand of any product? :s Never like "damn, always that extremely cheap coffee, i'll try a more expensive brand for once, just to see if it's really worth the difference? Since the situation is totally equivalent.
well im from germany and i can watch the highest level boxing and football, volleyball in olympics or whatever (i dont care) for free on television.
and the bold line just states that all your points are invalid. so you say gsl has more viewers then all other pay-tv sports? then it probably wont rise anymore. thats just what we want to tell you.
On February 01 2011 18:45 Bobgrimly wrote: Money/profit comes with numbers. A sport needs numbers of fans to survive... far larger than the number of pro gamers.
You can't generate fans for a new sport by charging them season tickets to a sport they might not even like. They won't pay. You want to generate fans. Don't charge them.... charge the advertisers and sponsors. It is how sports works. Why are so many people in this thread thinking that paying is a good business model. Has anyone who agreed with the pay per view ever run an actual business?
And don't say they have to cover costs in the short term. Long term goals with the backing from blizzard shouldn't be a problem. Even with short term (year or so) of loss.
Next ten years of esports or longer... with potential for actual worldwide audiences..... should be greater than a short term gain.
There's almost everything wrong with that post.
Charge the advertisers and sponsors? that's how sports work? I'm gonna tell that the man in his ticket booth the next time I go to a football(i.e. soccer) match when he wants to charge me for watching!
Also, u don't think pay per view is a good business model, alright then. Try to generate enough revenue through advertisement on the internet to support quality content like gom does. There is a reason why major news sites are stuggling for survival: internet advertisemt is not what it was 10 years ago and software like adblock - useful as it may be - has not been particularly helpful either. Ever wondered why the TL mascot is asking u to turn it off? And then this: The support of Blizzard. Blizzard wants to make money with esports. that'S why with their new license policy, all broadcasting rights are reserved for Blizzard. You want to start a league and broadcast it? Well, better pay to Blizzard or they are gonna sue ur ass (think MBC...)
On February 01 2011 16:36 han_han wrote: If they lowered the price of 25% I'd pay. I don't believe the current price is justifiable in terms of cost. Hell, if they had an intermediate option for half the price and half the quality I'd take it. I'm not watching for SUPER HD ZOMG QUALITY of a game, I'm watching for the commentary and action.
Its $10 bucks man for like, hundreds of hours of content in HQ.
Our generation is so used to stealing or getting things for free that even bargains are too expensive for us.
And what about the audiences who doesn't know about GSL?
Gom is not trying to expand e-sports. They're trying to make a profit, but it's not like they're overcharging some exhorbitant amount of money. It's 10 bucks for a season, which is perfectly reasonable. It's obvious that a fully ad-supported version of GSL is not possible. Gom gives you the choice of $10 with ads or $15 without ads. Obviously, they expect ads will only cover the cost partially. Advertisers aren't exactly lining up at the door to advertise to mouthbreathing Starcraft 2 nerds.
For the audiences who don't know about GSL, there's HuskyStarcraft and HD who have free vods. For someone who is just checking out pro SC2 casually, that's good enough.
And why do people assume that GOMtv should be responsible for making SC2 and esports big?
There's plenty of weekly tournaments, hdstarcraft, husky etc that provide lots of content free of charge.
You don't take your friends to a Liverpool v Manchester Utd. game to get them interested in soccer, and then complain about the ticket price, do you? (TV is not a argument since a) Gomtv is also free sq live, and b) Most people have to pay extra for those sport channels that show the hyped games).
Besides, pay per view simply gives GOM more control over its content. Don't underestimate sponsors. They get a say over whatever content they are sponsoring. Less people to please with PPV.
And, fun fact: sponsors don't back you up unless there's a sure chance of profit. SC2 is relatively young, you simply can't ask them to assume all costs at this point.
On February 01 2011 18:45 Bobgrimly wrote: Money/profit comes with numbers. A sport needs numbers of fans to survive... far larger than the number of pro gamers.
You can't generate fans for a new sport by charging them season tickets to a sport they might not even like. They won't pay. You want to generate fans. Don't charge them.... charge the advertisers and sponsors. It is how sports works. Why are so many people in this thread thinking that paying is a good business model. Has anyone who agreed with the pay per view ever run an actual business?
And don't say they have to cover costs in the short term. Long term goals with the backing from blizzard shouldn't be a problem. Even with short term (year or so) of loss.
Next ten years of esports or longer... with potential for actual worldwide audiences..... should be greater than a short term gain.
While that holds for some sports, there are enough out there who can't have it from that. Over here i can name several sports who almost never get anything televised and entrance to the event is to be paid. - boxing - volleybal (even though we have two teams who're top European level) - any soccer that isn't in the highest league. (second highest sometimes get a small recap at 11pm i believe)
Sure, their audiences are way way lower than the GSL already has. However, what i mentioned above were geographically very specific audiences (small country :p). On Global scale, you're aiming for a totally different type of sponsors and those have standards way higher up.
And as many people have said: you have 60+ vods/season to judge upon wether it's worth your money. (in the case you really never can see the livestream) So that argument really doesn't hold water.
Besides, all you people complaining you can't go check it out to see if it's worth it, none of you ever tries a new brand of any product? :s Never like "damn, always that extremely cheap coffee, i'll try a more expensive brand for once, just to see if it's really worth the difference? Since the situation is totally equivalent.
well im from germany and i can watch the highest level boxing and football, volleyball in olympics or whatever (i dont care) for free on television.
and the bold line just states that all your points are invalid. so you say gsl has more viewers then all other pay-tv sports? then it probably wont rise anymore. thats just what we want to tell you.
Apparantly i forgot to mention that i was talking about situation here. Compared to almost any sport here, GSL is prolly bigger. (since there are like only 10M inhabitants here)
It's worth it because So much content for ten bucks. A movie trip costs about twenty and only last two hours. I am supporting something I enjoy playing watching.
On February 01 2011 18:45 Bobgrimly wrote: Money/profit comes with numbers. A sport needs numbers of fans to survive... far larger than the number of pro gamers.
You can't generate fans for a new sport by charging them season tickets to a sport they might not even like. They won't pay. You want to generate fans. Don't charge them.... charge the advertisers and sponsors. It is how sports works. Why are so many people in this thread thinking that paying is a good business model. Has anyone who agreed with the pay per view ever run an actual business?
And don't say they have to cover costs in the short term. Long term goals with the backing from blizzard shouldn't be a problem. Even with short term (year or so) of loss.
Next ten years of esports or longer... with potential for actual worldwide audiences..... should be greater than a short term gain.
No, sport does not work like that, it works by charging people to watch it. It charges at the gates for entry, it charges broadcasters to show games who in turn charge their customers to view the games (cable/satellite channels, or in the case of the BBC the license fee) either by subscription or pay-per-view, it charges for match programmes, replica shirts and other merchandise, then it charges companies to advertise in stadiums or on shirts/equipment, and the broadcasters charge for commercials.
To say that the punters don't pay is just wrong on every level, the only ones who don't pay are those who watch pirate streams and even they they're paying their ISP so someone is getting money, it just doesn't benefit the sport. I'm sorry, but to think that companies can cover their costs purely through advertisments and still put out such a well made product is naive. Compare the GSL to some of the non-payment model competitions, sure they still offer entertaining games but their production values are lower which reflects this.
GOM have to balance the short term survival of their product with the long term goal of growth and, at this time, this is the compromise, I don't expect it to stay that way, season ticket prices have already fallen, but until GSL is truly established and can sell its-self to major advertisers anywhere near to how the OSL can, it has to be endured.
On February 01 2011 18:45 Bobgrimly wrote: Money/profit comes with numbers. A sport needs numbers of fans to survive... far larger than the number of pro gamers.
You can't generate fans for a new sport by charging them season tickets to a sport they might not even like. They won't pay. You want to generate fans. Don't charge them.... charge the advertisers and sponsors. It is how sports works. Why are so many people in this thread thinking that paying is a good business model. Has anyone who agreed with the pay per view ever run an actual business?
And don't say they have to cover costs in the short term. Long term goals with the backing from blizzard shouldn't be a problem. Even with short term (year or so) of loss.
Next ten years of esports or longer... with potential for actual worldwide audiences..... should be greater than a short term gain.
There's almost everything wrong with that post.
Charge the advertisers and sponsors? that's how sports work? I'm gonna tell that the man in his ticket booth the next time I go to a football(i.e. soccer) match when he wants to charge me for watching!
Also, u don't think pay per view is a good business model, alright then. Try to generate enough revenue through advertisement on the internet to support quality content like gom does. There is a reason why major news sites are stuggling for survival: internet advertisemt is not what it was 10 years ago and software like adblock - useful as it may be - has not been particularly helpful either. Ever wondered why the TL mascot is asking u to turn it off? And then this: The support of Blizzard. Blizzard wants to make money with esports. that'S why with their new license policy, all broadcasting rights are reserved for Blizzard. You want to start a league and broadcast it? Well, better pay to Blizzard or they are gonna sue ur ass (think MBC...)
dont talk if you have no clue. the man in the ticket booth is collecting money for his team/club. not for the UEFA, FIFA or DFB. those companys earn money buy selling the broadcasting rights. like blizzard did. and the broadcasting agencys earn money by advertisement. like gom should.
On February 01 2011 18:45 Bobgrimly wrote: Money/profit comes with numbers. A sport needs numbers of fans to survive... far larger than the number of pro gamers.
You can't generate fans for a new sport by charging them season tickets to a sport they might not even like. They won't pay. You want to generate fans. Don't charge them.... charge the advertisers and sponsors. It is how sports works. Why are so many people in this thread thinking that paying is a good business model. Has anyone who agreed with the pay per view ever run an actual business?
And don't say they have to cover costs in the short term. Long term goals with the backing from blizzard shouldn't be a problem. Even with short term (year or so) of loss.
Next ten years of esports or longer... with potential for actual worldwide audiences..... should be greater than a short term gain.
There's almost everything wrong with that post.
Charge the advertisers and sponsors? that's how sports work? I'm gonna tell that the man in his ticket booth the next time I go to a football(i.e. soccer) match when he wants to charge me for watching!
Also, u don't think pay per view is a good business model, alright then. Try to generate enough revenue through advertisement on the internet to support quality content like gom does. There is a reason why major news sites are stuggling for survival: internet advertisemt is not what it was 10 years ago and software like adblock - useful as it may be - has not been particularly helpful either. Ever wondered why the TL mascot is asking u to turn it off? And then this: The support of Blizzard. Blizzard wants to make money with esports. that'S why with their new license policy, all broadcasting rights are reserved for Blizzard. You want to start a league and broadcast it? Well, better pay to Blizzard or they are gonna sue ur ass (think MBC...)
dont talk if you have no clue. the man in the ticket booth is collecting money for his team/club. not for the UEFA, FIFA or DFB. those companys earn money buy selling the broadcasting rights. like blizzard did. and the broadcasting agencys earn money by advertisement. like gom should.
As much as I understand Blizzard's viewpoint, they are shooting themselves in the leg.
I just can't wrap my mind around paying to watch Starcraft 2 because the Starcraft series has always been free to watch. I can justify the cost if i was a huge Starcraft 2 fan, but for a casual player with 400 games played in the past 6 months, I cannot see the value.
It's easy to say that they should give us all the content for free, but really it wouldn't be free at that point, it would be them paying for us to watch SC2. Someone has to pay to facillitate such a service. What incentive is there for them to produce a product that actually costs them money? How is "growing Starcraft 2" any benefit at all to them if they lose money doing it?
The cost for the content is very very reasonable and from what I understand, they don't take any profits from the money paid for the premium package. All of the money is dumped back into improving the service.
Gom does not have unlimited bandwidth, there is a free stream that everyone can watch, but if everything was free, the streams would be too crowded and the quality and consistency of the streams/vods will suffer. If you want to watch the vods/HQ enough, then paying for it will ensure you the (at least theoretically, whether this is true in practice is another matter, but I think they are getting a lot better) smooth and clean experience.
Otherwise, there are tons of other Starcraft 2 that you can have for free and very easily. The production values of Gom and the way they have improved is way worth the price they are charging imo.
On February 01 2011 18:45 Bobgrimly wrote: Money/profit comes with numbers. A sport needs numbers of fans to survive... far larger than the number of pro gamers.
You can't generate fans for a new sport by charging them season tickets to a sport they might not even like. They won't pay. You want to generate fans. Don't charge them.... charge the advertisers and sponsors. It is how sports works. Why are so many people in this thread thinking that paying is a good business model. Has anyone who agreed with the pay per view ever run an actual business?
And don't say they have to cover costs in the short term. Long term goals with the backing from blizzard shouldn't be a problem. Even with short term (year or so) of loss.
Next ten years of esports or longer... with potential for actual worldwide audiences..... should be greater than a short term gain.
There's almost everything wrong with that post.
Charge the advertisers and sponsors? that's how sports work? I'm gonna tell that the man in his ticket booth the next time I go to a football(i.e. soccer) match when he wants to charge me for watching!
Also, u don't think pay per view is a good business model, alright then. Try to generate enough revenue through advertisement on the internet to support quality content like gom does. There is a reason why major news sites are stuggling for survival: internet advertisemt is not what it was 10 years ago and software like adblock - useful as it may be - has not been particularly helpful either. Ever wondered why the TL mascot is asking u to turn it off? And then this: The support of Blizzard. Blizzard wants to make money with esports. that'S why with their new license policy, all broadcasting rights are reserved for Blizzard. You want to start a league and broadcast it? Well, better pay to Blizzard or they are gonna sue ur ass (think MBC...)
dont talk if you have no clue. the man in the ticket booth is collecting money for his team/club. not for the UEFA, FIFA or DFB. those companys earn money buy selling the broadcasting rights. like blizzard did. and the broadcasting agencys earn money by advertisement. like gom should.
Okay, but in those cases, the clubs also bear quite some of the costs. It's the clubs who provide the infrastructure. (the stadium)
Also, i believe code S players get some pay from GOM.
On February 02 2011 03:21 Darklance wrote: Think about it this way:
Gom does not have unlimited bandwidth, there is a free stream that everyone can watch, but if everything was free, the streams would be too crowded and the quality and consistency of the streams/vods will suffer. If you want to watch the vods/HQ enough, then paying for it will ensure you the (at least theoretically, whether this is true in practice is another matter, but I think they are getting a lot better) smooth and clean experience.
Otherwise, there are tons of other Starcraft 2 that you can have for free and very easily. The production values of Gom and the way they have improved is way worth the price they are charging imo.
Starcraft 2 doesn't need to revolve around stream. It doesn't need to go backward from the sc1 scene.
On February 02 2011 01:34 Danjoh wrote: And why do people assume that GOMtv should be responsible for making SC2 and esports big?
There's plenty of weekly tournaments, hdstarcraft, husky etc that provide lots of content free of charge.
You don't take your friends to a Liverpool v Manchester Utd. game to get them interested in soccer, and then complain about the ticket price, do you? (TV is not a argument since a) Gomtv is also free sq live, and b) Most people have to pay extra for those sport channels that show the hyped games).
Yeah, but most people complaining aren't looking for common sense, they're looking for free stuff.
On February 01 2011 18:45 Bobgrimly wrote: Money/profit comes with numbers. A sport needs numbers of fans to survive... far larger than the number of pro gamers.
You can't generate fans for a new sport by charging them season tickets to a sport they might not even like. They won't pay. You want to generate fans. Don't charge them.... charge the advertisers and sponsors. It is how sports works. Why are so many people in this thread thinking that paying is a good business model. Has anyone who agreed with the pay per view ever run an actual business?
And don't say they have to cover costs in the short term. Long term goals with the backing from blizzard shouldn't be a problem. Even with short term (year or so) of loss.
Next ten years of esports or longer... with potential for actual worldwide audiences..... should be greater than a short term gain.
There's almost everything wrong with that post.
Charge the advertisers and sponsors? that's how sports work? I'm gonna tell that the man in his ticket booth the next time I go to a football(i.e. soccer) match when he wants to charge me for watching!
Also, u don't think pay per view is a good business model, alright then. Try to generate enough revenue through advertisement on the internet to support quality content like gom does. There is a reason why major news sites are stuggling for survival: internet advertisemt is not what it was 10 years ago and software like adblock - useful as it may be - has not been particularly helpful either. Ever wondered why the TL mascot is asking u to turn it off? And then this: The support of Blizzard. Blizzard wants to make money with esports. that'S why with their new license policy, all broadcasting rights are reserved for Blizzard. You want to start a league and broadcast it? Well, better pay to Blizzard or they are gonna sue ur ass (think MBC...)
dont talk if you have no clue. the man in the ticket booth is collecting money for his team/club. not for the UEFA, FIFA or DFB. those companys earn money buy selling the broadcasting rights. like blizzard did. and the broadcasting agencys earn money by advertisement. like gom should.
My point was that there is a lot u have to pay for in pro sports while u on the other hand are comparing two totally different systems. GOM is much more than a simple broadcaster since they also organize the GSL and directly pay the players but even if they were just a simple broadcaster: ever heard of pay tv? If you want to watch Bundesliga live u'll have to subscribe to sky and guess what, that's not for free.
I've been a subscriber since half way through the first season, so I may not be remembering correctly. I think that they let you watch the first set of each round in SQ. I think that makes a lot of sense. They let people sample the content for free, then charge them for the complete product. Perhaps they should consider letting people watch the SQ VODs for free, but having advertisements in them.
On February 01 2011 18:45 Bobgrimly wrote: Money/profit comes with numbers. A sport needs numbers of fans to survive... far larger than the number of pro gamers.
You can't generate fans for a new sport by charging them season tickets to a sport they might not even like. They won't pay. You want to generate fans. Don't charge them.... charge the advertisers and sponsors. It is how sports works. Why are so many people in this thread thinking that paying is a good business model. Has anyone who agreed with the pay per view ever run an actual business?
And don't say they have to cover costs in the short term. Long term goals with the backing from blizzard shouldn't be a problem. Even with short term (year or so) of loss.
Next ten years of esports or longer... with potential for actual worldwide audiences..... should be greater than a short term gain.
There's almost everything wrong with that post.
Charge the advertisers and sponsors? that's how sports work? I'm gonna tell that the man in his ticket booth the next time I go to a football(i.e. soccer) match when he wants to charge me for watching!
Also, u don't think pay per view is a good business model, alright then. Try to generate enough revenue through advertisement on the internet to support quality content like gom does. There is a reason why major news sites are stuggling for survival: internet advertisemt is not what it was 10 years ago and software like adblock - useful as it may be - has not been particularly helpful either. Ever wondered why the TL mascot is asking u to turn it off? And then this: The support of Blizzard. Blizzard wants to make money with esports. that'S why with their new license policy, all broadcasting rights are reserved for Blizzard. You want to start a league and broadcast it? Well, better pay to Blizzard or they are gonna sue ur ass (think MBC...)
dont talk if you have no clue. the man in the ticket booth is collecting money for his team/club. not for the UEFA, FIFA or DFB. those companys earn money buy selling the broadcasting rights. like blizzard did. and the broadcasting agencys earn money by advertisement. like gom should.
Difference is the SC2 teams aren't providing the stadium, the staff, the broadcasters, and other costs. GOMTV is doing all that.
If some third party wants to do that and negotiates a deal, then you might have a point.
On February 01 2011 18:45 Bobgrimly wrote: Money/profit comes with numbers. A sport needs numbers of fans to survive... far larger than the number of pro gamers.
You can't generate fans for a new sport by charging them season tickets to a sport they might not even like. They won't pay. You want to generate fans. Don't charge them.... charge the advertisers and sponsors. It is how sports works. Why are so many people in this thread thinking that paying is a good business model. Has anyone who agreed with the pay per view ever run an actual business?
And don't say they have to cover costs in the short term. Long term goals with the backing from blizzard shouldn't be a problem. Even with short term (year or so) of loss.
Next ten years of esports or longer... with potential for actual worldwide audiences..... should be greater than a short term gain.
There's almost everything wrong with that post.
Charge the advertisers and sponsors? that's how sports work? I'm gonna tell that the man in his ticket booth the next time I go to a football(i.e. soccer) match when he wants to charge me for watching!
Also, u don't think pay per view is a good business model, alright then. Try to generate enough revenue through advertisement on the internet to support quality content like gom does. There is a reason why major news sites are stuggling for survival: internet advertisemt is not what it was 10 years ago and software like adblock - useful as it may be - has not been particularly helpful either. Ever wondered why the TL mascot is asking u to turn it off? And then this: The support of Blizzard. Blizzard wants to make money with esports. that'S why with their new license policy, all broadcasting rights are reserved for Blizzard. You want to start a league and broadcast it? Well, better pay to Blizzard or they are gonna sue ur ass (think MBC...)
dont talk if you have no clue. the man in the ticket booth is collecting money for his team/club. not for the UEFA, FIFA or DFB. those companys earn money buy selling the broadcasting rights. like blizzard did. and the broadcasting agencys earn money by advertisement. like gom should.
Difference is the SC2 teams aren't providing the stadium, the staff, the broadcasters, and other costs. GOMTV is doing all that.
If some third party wants to do that and negotiates a deal, then you might have a point.
great idea! we could call that third party something like "korean esports association" or "kespa" in short. + Show Spoiler +
EPT
