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South Africa4316 Posts
On January 31 2011 04:22 Omnipresent wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2011 01:55 shannn wrote:
People need to calm down over the invitees. The invites has been done and I am pretty confident they will do well this upcoming season. This also means more new slots for foreigners (if the current ones do well) where we will have a better chance of more foreigners for code S. GSL will grow in viewer numbers and we'll all be happy. First try to root and congratulate the players who has been invited. I'm rooting for them! Obviously I hope everyone plays to the best of their abilities. I hope they enjoy themselves and are happy with their results. However, I'm not sure why you think this is a positive thing for the GSL. Seeding players in Code A was a risky decision to begin with. Exempting players from the standard rules undermines the competition in general. These picks have only made it worse. It's tough to give unqualified players a free pass into Code A and still .run a "legitimate" tournament (though Huk was probably a safe bet). This decision will almost certainly hurt the GSL's ratings in Korea, and threatens its legitimacy in general I don't want to cry doom here. This clearly isn't the end of the GSL. But if GOM makes this sort of choice every season (seeding foreign players simply because they're foreign, not based on skill), it'll be pretty hard to take them seriously. As far as rooting for players, I'm interested in cheering for the best or most interesting players, not necessarily the ones that happen to look like me or speak my language. It's nice to watch an interview with a player who speaks English, but it's also nice to see great players play.
What many people like you seem to miss is that it is necessary to seed players into Code A if you want foreigners to have any chance of competing in the GSL. oGsTOP mentioned somewhere that winning the Code A tournament earned him as much money as those dropping out first round in Code S (lets say, for arguments sake, $1000). Going to Korea costs players the plane tickets (lets say $1000) plus living expenses (lets say another $1000). Going to Korea without having qualification assured is way too risky. Not only do you need to get through the 192 person qualifier tournament, you also need to win the Code A tournament AND qualify (the two things aren't the same) just to break even.
Now, if you look at a tournament like  FXOpen Shatter The Sky, two Koreans (who both failed to qualify for Code A) competed with the best from the NA server (Fenix, Tyler, Painuser, Allboutyou, etc.), and the two Koreans came first and third. Not even WhiteRa is guaranteed to qualify if he goes through the open qualifier tournament. It's simply not financially viable for players to go to Korea without knowing that they are seeded in.
This doesn't mean the seeded players don't deserve to play in the tournament. For example, I think WhiteRa (as well as all the invitees) could compete with all the other players in Code A quite well. But if you don't have a seeding system in place, it's just not worth it for these players to even try going there. Being seeded doesn't mean they are too weak to compete, it just takes some of the risk out of going to Korea for these players. It's an incentive for the top players to go to Korea. Because of this, I can't see how it harms the legitimacy of the tournament. International players have a way higher risk when taking part in these tournaments, so GOM is sweetening the deal for them a bit to even the playing field.
Finally, you have no idea how good these players actually are. Yes, Ret had bad games in Code A, but he had great games the season before that. Everyone has bad games at times. Haypro qualified for the GSL through the painful qualifying process the season before and got cheesed out by a player that successfully cheese out many strong competitors. No one has seen HuK compete in tournaments in a long time, so we have no idea (other than his ladder rankings) how good he is. Moonglade is the only person we know anything about, and he seems deserving. The Liquid players have shown consistently good results when playing outside of Korea, especially if you consider how rarely they do participate outside of Korea. There's no evidence that WhiteRa is any better than those invited into the GSL.
EDIT: Just to add, there's a fair chance that GOM will invite different players next season. This season, many players still said they may or may not go, and it's likely that GOM chose the safest options this season (being the players in Korea). However, with more time to organize and more players stating that they would like to go, GOM will no doubt have more available players to choose from for next season.
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I agree with the HuK and moonglade seeds, but Ret and Haypro have both had their chance and have been shown to be waaay too greedy, especially against Korean style. I guess there weren't any better candidates actually living in Korea, hopefully that changes soon (DeMu, WhiteRa, Sjow, Select, qxc)
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+ Show Spoiler +On January 31 2011 04:52 Daigomi wrote:On January 31 2011 04:22 Omnipresent wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2011 01:55 shannn wrote:
People need to calm down over the invitees. The invites has been done and I am pretty confident they will do well this upcoming season. This also means more new slots for foreigners (if the current ones do well) where we will have a better chance of more foreigners for code S. GSL will grow in viewer numbers and we'll all be happy. First try to root and congratulate the players who has been invited. I'm rooting for them! Obviously I hope everyone plays to the best of their abilities. I hope they enjoy themselves and are happy with their results. However, I'm not sure why you think this is a positive thing for the GSL. Seeding players in Code A was a risky decision to begin with. Exempting players from the standard rules undermines the competition in general. These picks have only made it worse. It's tough to give unqualified players a free pass into Code A and still .run a "legitimate" tournament (though Huk was probably a safe bet). This decision will almost certainly hurt the GSL's ratings in Korea, and threatens its legitimacy in general I don't want to cry doom here. This clearly isn't the end of the GSL. But if GOM makes this sort of choice every season (seeding foreign players simply because they're foreign, not based on skill), it'll be pretty hard to take them seriously. As far as rooting for players, I'm interested in cheering for the best or most interesting players, not necessarily the ones that happen to look like me or speak my language. It's nice to watch an interview with a player who speaks English, but it's also nice to see great players play. What many people like you seem to miss is that it is necessary to seed players into Code A if you want foreigners to have any chance of competing in the GSL. oGsTOP mentioned somewhere that winning the Code A tournament earned him as much money as those dropping out first round in Code S (lets say, for arguments sake, $1000). Going to Korea costs players the plane tickets (lets say $1000) plus living expenses (lets say another $1000). Going to Korea without having qualification assured is way too risky. Not only do you need to get through the 192 person qualifier tournament, you also need to win the Code A tournament AND qualify (the two things aren't the same) just to break even. Now, if you look at a tournament like FXOpen Shatter The Sky, two Koreans (who both failed to qualify for Code A) competed with the best from the NA server (Fenix, Tyler, Painuser, Allboutyou, etc.), and the two Koreans came first and third. Not even WhiteRa is guaranteed to qualify if he goes through the open qualifier tournament. It's simply not financially viable for players to go to Korea without knowing that they are seeded in. This doesn't mean the seeded players don't deserve to play in the tournament. For example, I think WhiteRa (as well as all the invitees) could compete with all the other players in Code A quite well. But if you don't have a seeding system in place, it's just not worth it for these players to even try going there. Being seeded doesn't mean they are too weak to compete, it just takes some of the risk out of going to Korea for these players. It's an incentive for the top players to go to Korea. Because of this, I can't see how it harms the legitimacy of the tournament. International players have a way higher risk when taking part in these tournaments, so GOM is sweetening the deal for them a bit to even the playing field. Finally, you have no idea how good these players actually are. Yes, Ret had bad games in Code A, but he had great games the season before that. Everyone has bad games at times. Haypro qualified for the GSL through the painful qualifying process the season before and got cheesed out by a player that successfully cheese out many strong competitors. No one has seen HuK compete in tournaments in a long time, so we have no idea (other than his ladder rankings) how good he is. Moonglade is the only person we know anything about, and he seems deserving. The Liquid players have shown consistently good results when playing outside of Korea, especially if you consider how rarely they do participate outside of Korea. There's no evidence that WhiteRa is any better than those invited into the GSL.
you cant take 1 tournament and make a conclusion.
AFAIK TheStC did not try to qualify for GSL and he is one of the best Terran players in the world.
Also, oGsJ won Most of his games 2-1
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i think players like mana, fenix, morow, demuslin should be invited to gsl
ret 26 years?, withe -ra 31 years?, haypro 27 years?
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South Africa4316 Posts
On January 31 2011 05:00 Reptilia wrote:Show nested quote ++ Show Spoiler +On January 31 2011 04:52 Daigomi wrote:On January 31 2011 04:22 Omnipresent wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2011 01:55 shannn wrote:
People need to calm down over the invitees. The invites has been done and I am pretty confident they will do well this upcoming season. This also means more new slots for foreigners (if the current ones do well) where we will have a better chance of more foreigners for code S. GSL will grow in viewer numbers and we'll all be happy. First try to root and congratulate the players who has been invited. I'm rooting for them! Obviously I hope everyone plays to the best of their abilities. I hope they enjoy themselves and are happy with their results. However, I'm not sure why you think this is a positive thing for the GSL. Seeding players in Code A was a risky decision to begin with. Exempting players from the standard rules undermines the competition in general. These picks have only made it worse. It's tough to give unqualified players a free pass into Code A and still .run a "legitimate" tournament (though Huk was probably a safe bet). This decision will almost certainly hurt the GSL's ratings in Korea, and threatens its legitimacy in general I don't want to cry doom here. This clearly isn't the end of the GSL. But if GOM makes this sort of choice every season (seeding foreign players simply because they're foreign, not based on skill), it'll be pretty hard to take them seriously. As far as rooting for players, I'm interested in cheering for the best or most interesting players, not necessarily the ones that happen to look like me or speak my language. It's nice to watch an interview with a player who speaks English, but it's also nice to see great players play. What many people like you seem to miss is that it is necessary to seed players into Code A if you want foreigners to have any chance of competing in the GSL. oGsTOP mentioned somewhere that winning the Code A tournament earned him as much money as those dropping out first round in Code S (lets say, for arguments sake, $1000). Going to Korea costs players the plane tickets (lets say $1000) plus living expenses (lets say another $1000). Going to Korea without having qualification assured is way too risky. Not only do you need to get through the 192 person qualifier tournament, you also need to win the Code A tournament AND qualify (the two things aren't the same) just to break even. Now, if you look at a tournament like FXOpen Shatter The Sky, two Koreans (who both failed to qualify for Code A) competed with the best from the NA server (Fenix, Tyler, Painuser, Allboutyou, etc.), and the two Koreans came first and third. Not even WhiteRa is guaranteed to qualify if he goes through the open qualifier tournament. It's simply not financially viable for players to go to Korea without knowing that they are seeded in. This doesn't mean the seeded players don't deserve to play in the tournament. For example, I think WhiteRa (as well as all the invitees) could compete with all the other players in Code A quite well. But if you don't have a seeding system in place, it's just not worth it for these players to even try going there. Being seeded doesn't mean they are too weak to compete, it just takes some of the risk out of going to Korea for these players. It's an incentive for the top players to go to Korea. Because of this, I can't see how it harms the legitimacy of the tournament. International players have a way higher risk when taking part in these tournaments, so GOM is sweetening the deal for them a bit to even the playing field. Finally, you have no idea how good these players actually are. Yes, Ret had bad games in Code A, but he had great games the season before that. Everyone has bad games at times. Haypro qualified for the GSL through the painful qualifying process the season before and got cheesed out by a player that successfully cheese out many strong competitors. No one has seen HuK compete in tournaments in a long time, so we have no idea (other than his ladder rankings) how good he is. Moonglade is the only person we know anything about, and he seems deserving. The Liquid players have shown consistently good results when playing outside of Korea, especially if you consider how rarely they do participate outside of Korea. There's no evidence that WhiteRa is any better than those invited into the GSL. you cant take 1 tournament and make a conclusion. AFAIK TheStC did not try to qualify for GSL and he is one of the best Terran players in the world. Also, oGsJ won Most of his games 2-1
I cannot take one tournament in which two koreans came out on top against 30 non-koreans to draw the conclusion that any single non-korean playing in a qualifier of 200 players is uncertain of qualifying? I never said that WhiteRa would get crushed or wouldn't qualify, I said that it's uncertain if he would qualify. All it takes is one "2-1" win by a Korean like oGsJ for him to fall out of the qualifiers.
Anyway, I don't know what conclusions you got from my post, but my point was, given the risk involved, it isn't financially viable for players to go without the chance of being seeded. In fact, even with being seeded I doubt it's financially viable except for the exposure their sponsors get. Just on pure tournament money, it's just not worth the risk for foreigners to go to Korea, not even for WhiteRa.
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On January 31 2011 04:52 Daigomi wrote:Now, if you look at a tournament like FXOpen Shatter The Sky, two Koreans (who both failed to qualify for Code A) competed with the best from the NA server (Fenix, Tyler, Painuser, Allboutyou, etc.), and the two Koreans came first and third. Not even WhiteRa is guaranteed to qualify if he goes through the open qualifier tournament. It's simply not financially viable for players to go to Korea without knowing that they are seeded in.
Not to harp on your actual message I think this should be addressed. oGsTheStC never attempted to qualify since he's doing his military service now. He was considered one of the best Terrans in the Beta and I think he's still considered one of the best.
Anyway everything else was well said. People will always find a reason to complain
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I would like to see online tournament open for everyone, to determent the seeding.
WhiteRa, dimaga, brate_ok are what I would like to see. there isn't enough eourpean player.
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I don't know if I misunderstood, but I was pretty sure they meant foreigners that also is residing outside of Korea, but I guess not. No offence to anyone at Liquid or GOM(considering we don't have all the info yet), but there's alot of foreigners that(imo) could have taken at least HayprO(maybe Rets place). My opinion, don't eat me.
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On January 31 2011 05:17 miDnight_SC wrote:
I would like to see online tournament open for everyone, to determent the seeding.
WhiteRa, dimaga, brate_ok are what I would like to see. there isn't enough eourpean player.
what are you talking about... there is a grand total of 7 foreigners in the GSL given no more qualifiers, and 3 of those are european... i'm not really sure what you want, but those are pretty good numbers all things considered
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On January 31 2011 05:29 Coramoor wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2011 05:17 miDnight_SC wrote:
I would like to see online tournament open for everyone, to determent the seeding.
WhiteRa, dimaga, brate_ok are what I would like to see. there isn't enough eourpean player. what are you talking about... there is a grand total of 7 foreigners in the GSL given no more qualifiers, and 3 of those are european... i'm not really sure what you want, but those are pretty good numbers all things considered
Don't forget that TLO would have been in code A if not for double CTS and whatever the other factors were behind him leaving korea.
Our European hero's are doing just fine! I would like to see more, yes, but i would also like to see more NA and LA players qualifying too. The more foreigners the better imo!
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On January 31 2011 04:52 Daigomi wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2011 04:22 Omnipresent wrote:On January 31 2011 01:55 shannn wrote:
People need to calm down over the invitees. The invites has been done and I am pretty confident they will do well this upcoming season. This also means more new slots for foreigners (if the current ones do well) where we will have a better chance of more foreigners for code S. GSL will grow in viewer numbers and we'll all be happy. First try to root and congratulate the players who has been invited. I'm rooting for them! Obviously I hope everyone plays to the best of their abilities. I hope they enjoy themselves and are happy with their results. However, I'm not sure why you think this is a positive thing for the GSL. Seeding players in Code A was a risky decision to begin with. Exempting players from the standard rules undermines the competition in general. These picks have only made it worse. It's tough to give unqualified players a free pass into Code A and still .run a "legitimate" tournament (though Huk was probably a safe bet). This decision will almost certainly hurt the GSL's ratings in Korea, and threatens its legitimacy in general I don't want to cry doom here. This clearly isn't the end of the GSL. But if GOM makes this sort of choice every season (seeding foreign players simply because they're foreign, not based on skill), it'll be pretty hard to take them seriously. As far as rooting for players, I'm interested in cheering for the best or most interesting players, not necessarily the ones that happen to look like me or speak my language. It's nice to watch an interview with a player who speaks English, but it's also nice to see great players play. What many people like you seem to miss is that it is necessary to seed players into Code A if you want foreigners to have any chance of competing in the GSL. oGsTOP mentioned somewhere that winning the Code A tournament earned him as much money as those dropping out first round in Code S (lets say, for arguments sake, $1000). Going to Korea costs players the plane tickets (lets say $1000) plus living expenses (lets say another $1000). Going to Korea without having qualification assured is way too risky. Not only do you need to get through the 192 person qualifier tournament, you also need to win the Code A tournament AND qualify (the two things aren't the same) just to break even. Now, if you look at a tournament like FXOpen Shatter The Sky, two Koreans (who both failed to qualify for Code A) competed with the best from the NA server (Fenix, Tyler, Painuser, Allboutyou, etc.), and the two Koreans came first and third. Not even WhiteRa is guaranteed to qualify if he goes through the open qualifier tournament. It's simply not financially viable for players to go to Korea without knowing that they are seeded in. This doesn't mean the seeded players don't deserve to play in the tournament. For example, I think WhiteRa (as well as all the invitees) could compete with all the other players in Code A quite well. But if you don't have a seeding system in place, it's just not worth it for these players to even try going there. Being seeded doesn't mean they are too weak to compete, it just takes some of the risk out of going to Korea for these players. It's an incentive for the top players to go to Korea. Because of this, I can't see how it harms the legitimacy of the tournament. International players have a way higher risk when taking part in these tournaments, so GOM is sweetening the deal for them a bit to even the playing field. Finally, you have no idea how good these players actually are. Yes, Ret had bad games in Code A, but he had great games the season before that. Everyone has bad games at times. Haypro qualified for the GSL through the painful qualifying process the season before and got cheesed out by a player that successfully cheese out many strong competitors. No one has seen HuK compete in tournaments in a long time, so we have no idea (other than his ladder rankings) how good he is. Moonglade is the only person we know anything about, and he seems deserving. The Liquid players have shown consistently good results when playing outside of Korea, especially if you consider how rarely they do participate outside of Korea. There's no evidence that WhiteRa is any better than those invited into the GSL. EDIT: Just to add, there's a fair chance that GOM will invite different players next season. This season, many players still said they may or may not go, and it's likely that GOM chose the safest options this season (being the players in Korea). However, with more time to organize and more players stating that they would like to go, GOM will no doubt have more available players to choose from for next season.
I actually completely understand why GOM would want to seed foreign players. Without seeds, the risk of making the move is extremely high, and the rewards are (initially, at least) underwhelming. It's easy to make a pretty strong case for seeding foreign players in Code A, but GOM's picks don't line up with any rationale I can think of.
A) If they had seeded players in order to help them make the move, there would be almost nothing to complain about. I think most people understand that it's not a wise decision to move to Korea just so you can try to qualify (potentially failing). The trouble is, they invited players who had already made the move, have team support, and have already either qualified or tried to qualify for Code A (not sure if this last one applies to Moonglade).
B) They could even justify seeding players based entirely on skill. Very few people would argue that Huk is probably good enough for Code A (S). Ret was also good enough to qualify (and probably good enough to compete in Code A long term). But on the list of top players, Haypro and Moonglade are not standout competitors. They're both good pretty good, but it wouldn't be hard to find better choices.
Meanwhile, the recommendations given by the community are full of players who are both very skilled and willing to make the move (given the proper conditions).
I admit. Seeding players makes me uneasy on a visceral level, but I can completely understand why it's a reasonable choice. The choices GOM finally settled on, however, make me wonder what their intentions were to begin with. I don't see a rational justification for their decision (though I'm open to hearing one, if anyone can explain it to me). I hope it was just an issue of time or cost constraints for GOM, not poor decision making or worse, a blatant attempt at gaining viewers.
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South Africa4316 Posts
On January 31 2011 05:42 Omnipresent wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2011 04:52 Daigomi wrote:On January 31 2011 04:22 Omnipresent wrote:On January 31 2011 01:55 shannn wrote:
People need to calm down over the invitees. The invites has been done and I am pretty confident they will do well this upcoming season. This also means more new slots for foreigners (if the current ones do well) where we will have a better chance of more foreigners for code S. GSL will grow in viewer numbers and we'll all be happy. First try to root and congratulate the players who has been invited. I'm rooting for them! Obviously I hope everyone plays to the best of their abilities. I hope they enjoy themselves and are happy with their results. However, I'm not sure why you think this is a positive thing for the GSL. Seeding players in Code A was a risky decision to begin with. Exempting players from the standard rules undermines the competition in general. These picks have only made it worse. It's tough to give unqualified players a free pass into Code A and still .run a "legitimate" tournament (though Huk was probably a safe bet). This decision will almost certainly hurt the GSL's ratings in Korea, and threatens its legitimacy in general I don't want to cry doom here. This clearly isn't the end of the GSL. But if GOM makes this sort of choice every season (seeding foreign players simply because they're foreign, not based on skill), it'll be pretty hard to take them seriously. As far as rooting for players, I'm interested in cheering for the best or most interesting players, not necessarily the ones that happen to look like me or speak my language. It's nice to watch an interview with a player who speaks English, but it's also nice to see great players play. What many people like you seem to miss is that it is necessary to seed players into Code A if you want foreigners to have any chance of competing in the GSL. oGsTOP mentioned somewhere that winning the Code A tournament earned him as much money as those dropping out first round in Code S (lets say, for arguments sake, $1000). Going to Korea costs players the plane tickets (lets say $1000) plus living expenses (lets say another $1000). Going to Korea without having qualification assured is way too risky. Not only do you need to get through the 192 person qualifier tournament, you also need to win the Code A tournament AND qualify (the two things aren't the same) just to break even. Now, if you look at a tournament like FXOpen Shatter The Sky, two Koreans (who both failed to qualify for Code A) competed with the best from the NA server (Fenix, Tyler, Painuser, Allboutyou, etc.), and the two Koreans came first and third. Not even WhiteRa is guaranteed to qualify if he goes through the open qualifier tournament. It's simply not financially viable for players to go to Korea without knowing that they are seeded in. This doesn't mean the seeded players don't deserve to play in the tournament. For example, I think WhiteRa (as well as all the invitees) could compete with all the other players in Code A quite well. But if you don't have a seeding system in place, it's just not worth it for these players to even try going there. Being seeded doesn't mean they are too weak to compete, it just takes some of the risk out of going to Korea for these players. It's an incentive for the top players to go to Korea. Because of this, I can't see how it harms the legitimacy of the tournament. International players have a way higher risk when taking part in these tournaments, so GOM is sweetening the deal for them a bit to even the playing field. Finally, you have no idea how good these players actually are. Yes, Ret had bad games in Code A, but he had great games the season before that. Everyone has bad games at times. Haypro qualified for the GSL through the painful qualifying process the season before and got cheesed out by a player that successfully cheese out many strong competitors. No one has seen HuK compete in tournaments in a long time, so we have no idea (other than his ladder rankings) how good he is. Moonglade is the only person we know anything about, and he seems deserving. The Liquid players have shown consistently good results when playing outside of Korea, especially if you consider how rarely they do participate outside of Korea. There's no evidence that WhiteRa is any better than those invited into the GSL. EDIT: Just to add, there's a fair chance that GOM will invite different players next season. This season, many players still said they may or may not go, and it's likely that GOM chose the safest options this season (being the players in Korea). However, with more time to organize and more players stating that they would like to go, GOM will no doubt have more available players to choose from for next season. I actually completely understand why GOM would want to seed foreign players. Without seeds, the risk of making the move is extremely high, and the rewards are (initially, at least) underwhelming. It's easy to make a pretty strong case for seeding foreign players in Code A, but GOM's picks don't line up with any rationale I can think of. A) If they had seeded players in order to help them make the move, there would be almost nothing to complain about. I think most people understand that it's not a wise decision to move to Korea just so you can try to qualify (potentially failing). The trouble is, they invited players who had already made the move, have team support, and have already either qualified or tried to qualify for Code A (not sure if this last one applies to Moonglade). B) They could even justify seeding players based entirely on skill. Very few people would argue that Huk is probably good enough for Code A (S). Ret was also good enough to qualify (and probably good enough to compete in Code A long term). But on the list of top players, Haypro and Moonglade are not standout competitors. They're both good pretty good, but it wouldn't be hard to find better choices. Meanwhile, the recommendations given by the community are full of players who are both very skilled and willing to make the move (given the proper conditions). I admit. Seeding players makes me uneasy on a visceral level, but I can completely understand why it's a reasonable choice. The choices GOM finally settled on, however, make me wonder what their intentions were to begin with. I don't see a rational justification for their decision (though I'm open to hearing one, if anyone can explain it to me). I hope it was just an issue of time or cost constraints for GOM, not poor decision making or worse, a blatant attempt at gaining viewers.
Like I say at the end of my post, I think the seeded players will probably change next season. Not because there's anything wrong this with this season's, but I don't think there were that many legitimate candidates available. Perhaps people are underestimating the amount of work involved in going to Korea. I mean, EG has been talking about going to Korea for months, but they haven't set things up yet. It's not like GOM could just invite four players and get them to play in the tournament a few days later. That's why I expect the next round of invitations to differ. If I'm not mistaken, Sjow has applied to go to Korea now, so he's likely to get an invite next time around. Also, with more time to organize they might speak to WhiteRa and ask him if he's interested in going.
There are probably other factors to consider that we don't know about. For example, the players they invite need to be dedicated about staying there. It's no good if a player gets seeded into Code A, manages to stay in Code A, but then goes home the next time. There would also be logistical factors to consider with players like BratOK and Eastern Europeans, as far as I know. In the end, I think they chose safe choices this time by choosing players who are already there. All the players chosen will have a fair shot at competing, and I don't think any of the choices are bad. In future, GOM might reach out to more players and draw some players into Korea, but for the first season they really had to choose the players who have shown that they are dedicated and that they can compete with the Koreans on the Korean server. Doing anything else would have been a major slap in the face to these players.
Anyway, if it was a "blatant attempt to get viewers" they would have invited players like WhiteRa and Dimaga. The Liquid players, especially HuK, have a lot of support, but I don't doubt that there are players they could have invited that would have drawn more viewers.
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On January 31 2011 05:42 Omnipresent wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2011 04:52 Daigomi wrote:On January 31 2011 04:22 Omnipresent wrote:On January 31 2011 01:55 shannn wrote:
People need to calm down over the invitees. The invites has been done and I am pretty confident they will do well this upcoming season. This also means more new slots for foreigners (if the current ones do well) where we will have a better chance of more foreigners for code S. GSL will grow in viewer numbers and we'll all be happy. First try to root and congratulate the players who has been invited. I'm rooting for them! Obviously I hope everyone plays to the best of their abilities. I hope they enjoy themselves and are happy with their results. However, I'm not sure why you think this is a positive thing for the GSL. Seeding players in Code A was a risky decision to begin with. Exempting players from the standard rules undermines the competition in general. These picks have only made it worse. It's tough to give unqualified players a free pass into Code A and still .run a "legitimate" tournament (though Huk was probably a safe bet). This decision will almost certainly hurt the GSL's ratings in Korea, and threatens its legitimacy in general I don't want to cry doom here. This clearly isn't the end of the GSL. But if GOM makes this sort of choice every season (seeding foreign players simply because they're foreign, not based on skill), it'll be pretty hard to take them seriously. As far as rooting for players, I'm interested in cheering for the best or most interesting players, not necessarily the ones that happen to look like me or speak my language. It's nice to watch an interview with a player who speaks English, but it's also nice to see great players play. What many people like you seem to miss is that it is necessary to seed players into Code A if you want foreigners to have any chance of competing in the GSL. oGsTOP mentioned somewhere that winning the Code A tournament earned him as much money as those dropping out first round in Code S (lets say, for arguments sake, $1000). Going to Korea costs players the plane tickets (lets say $1000) plus living expenses (lets say another $1000). Going to Korea without having qualification assured is way too risky. Not only do you need to get through the 192 person qualifier tournament, you also need to win the Code A tournament AND qualify (the two things aren't the same) just to break even. Now, if you look at a tournament like FXOpen Shatter The Sky, two Koreans (who both failed to qualify for Code A) competed with the best from the NA server (Fenix, Tyler, Painuser, Allboutyou, etc.), and the two Koreans came first and third. Not even WhiteRa is guaranteed to qualify if he goes through the open qualifier tournament. It's simply not financially viable for players to go to Korea without knowing that they are seeded in. This doesn't mean the seeded players don't deserve to play in the tournament. For example, I think WhiteRa (as well as all the invitees) could compete with all the other players in Code A quite well. But if you don't have a seeding system in place, it's just not worth it for these players to even try going there. Being seeded doesn't mean they are too weak to compete, it just takes some of the risk out of going to Korea for these players. It's an incentive for the top players to go to Korea. Because of this, I can't see how it harms the legitimacy of the tournament. International players have a way higher risk when taking part in these tournaments, so GOM is sweetening the deal for them a bit to even the playing field. Finally, you have no idea how good these players actually are. Yes, Ret had bad games in Code A, but he had great games the season before that. Everyone has bad games at times. Haypro qualified for the GSL through the painful qualifying process the season before and got cheesed out by a player that successfully cheese out many strong competitors. No one has seen HuK compete in tournaments in a long time, so we have no idea (other than his ladder rankings) how good he is. Moonglade is the only person we know anything about, and he seems deserving. The Liquid players have shown consistently good results when playing outside of Korea, especially if you consider how rarely they do participate outside of Korea. There's no evidence that WhiteRa is any better than those invited into the GSL. EDIT: Just to add, there's a fair chance that GOM will invite different players next season. This season, many players still said they may or may not go, and it's likely that GOM chose the safest options this season (being the players in Korea). However, with more time to organize and more players stating that they would like to go, GOM will no doubt have more available players to choose from for next season. I actually completely understand why GOM would want to seed foreign players. Without seeds, the risk of making the move is extremely high, and the rewards are (initially, at least) underwhelming. It's easy to make a pretty strong case for seeding foreign players in Code A, but GOM's picks don't line up with any rationale I can think of. A) If they had seeded players in order to help them make the move, there would be almost nothing to complain about. I think most people understand that it's not a wise decision to move to Korea just so you can try to qualify (potentially failing). The trouble is, they invited players who had already made the move, have team support, and have already either qualified or tried to qualify for Code A (not sure if this last one applies to Moonglade). B) They could even justify seeding players based entirely on skill. Very few people would argue that Huk is probably good enough for Code A (S). Ret was also good enough to qualify (and probably good enough to compete in Code A long term). But on the list of top players, Haypro and Moonglade are not standout competitors. They're both good pretty good, but it wouldn't be hard to find better choices. Meanwhile, the recommendations given by the community are full of players who are both very skilled and willing to make the move (given the proper conditions). I admit. Seeding players makes me uneasy on a visceral level, but I can completely understand why it's a reasonable choice. The choices GOM finally settled on, however, make me wonder what their intentions were to begin with. I don't see a rational justification for their decision (though I'm open to hearing one, if anyone can explain it to me). I hope it was just an issue of time or cost constraints for GOM, not poor decision making or worse, a blatant attempt at gaining viewers.
It's very much true that it's odd to take the players already settled as they could just try to qualify the normal way. I'm thinking and I'm very sure actually the choise was based on logistics and if top SC2 players showing interest would actually make it in time.
Packing your bags and moving to Korea for an uncertain amount of time requires planning and I'm really surprised to see that soo many ppl in general takes it for granted that topplayers can just go to Korea. I'm sure that a lot want to go but I dont think we are going to see them before GSL6 at the earliest.
I could be wrong but I have not seen one top SC2 player that stood forward saying they wanted to go for GSL5 already. They've all said "long term plans" and "in the future" so I wouldnt worry about GOMs choise for these seedings. I think it's the only time we will see foreigners already in Korea being seeded.
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On January 30 2011 19:37 SmoKim wrote:From Artosis Twitter: awesome news :D
So basically, they didn't really "invite" international players, but picked the four highest ranking out of the (11? I think) foreigners who registered for the Code A preliminaries.
Nothing wrong with that, although I think the way they announced this was slightly misleading.
Best of luck to the 4 Code A invitees. With 5 foreigners in Code A, some of them just have to make it to the up and down matches.
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On January 31 2011 05:42 Omnipresent wrote:I admit. Seeding players makes me uneasy on a visceral level, but I can completely understand why it's a reasonable choice. The choices GOM finally settled on, however, make me wonder what their intentions were to begin with. I don't see a rational justification for their decision (though I'm open to hearing one, if anyone can explain it to me). I hope it was just an issue of time or cost constraints for GOM, not poor decision making or worse, a blatant attempt at gaining viewers.
They looked at the foreigners who registered for the Code A preliminaries and selected the 4 highest ranking ones on the Ladder.
Done.
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These invites seems to be based on convenience. I do hope they have had contact with top foreigners even if they didn't sign up for the preliminaries otherwise this has been very poorly handled. If Sjow or White-Ra who no doubt are more deserving of an invite than Haypro and Ret got the offer to go straight into Code A they would be far more likely to go than if they had to qualify.
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Not to get too far ahead here, but I'm fairly certain that Gom just looks at the Code A preliminary registrations. It removes the trouble of contacting/scheduling international players who may or may not have any actual interest in coming. Creating the Gom team house is basically their way of inviting people over. Those who follow the call and register for the preliminaries are evaluated and the Top 4 get the seeds.
So let me say this now: when DeMuslim and Sjow arrive in Korea for GSL6, they won't have to play in the preliminaries - they'll get two of the seeded spots.
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Now, if you look at a tournament like FXOpen Shatter The Sky, two Koreans (who both failed to qualify for Code A) competed with the best from the NA server (Fenix, Tyler, Painuser, Allboutyou, etc.), and the two Koreans came first and third.
Yeah and in the SCReddit Invitational, two Europeans competed with the best from the NA server (Fenix, Kiwikaki, Machine, TT1, etc.) and the two Europeans came first and second. Morrow wasn't even doing to well in European tournaments.
And at DreamHack Winter 2010, the best Code A player this season (ogsTop) almost lost to Adelscott (2-1 and the games ogsTop won were very close) and lost to Naama (1-2) and Fenix (1-3).
I don't like it when people are hyping Korean players because of one or two tournament results, but I have to agree that it's to risky for foreigners to go to Korea for the qualifiers.
Hopefully they will chose better players (except Huk) next season and I hope that the Liquid players will take the opportunity and stay in Code A.
Edit: I'm not saying that ret, haypro and moonglade won't have a chance to qualify for code s but I think that other players from Europe and America would have bigger chances.
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On January 31 2011 09:44 vdale wrote:Show nested quote +Now, if you look at a tournament like FXOpen Shatter The Sky, two Koreans (who both failed to qualify for Code A) competed with the best from the NA server (Fenix, Tyler, Painuser, Allboutyou, etc.), and the two Koreans came first and third. Yeah and in the SCReddit Invitational, two Europeans competed with the best from the NA server (Fenix, Kiwikaki, Machine, TT1, etc.) and the two Europeans came first and second. Morrow wasn't even doing to well in European tournaments. And at DreamHack Winter 2010, the best Code A player this season (ogsTop) almost lost to Adelscott (2-1 and the games ogsTop won were very close) and lost to Naama (1-2) and Fenix (1-3). I don't like it when people are hyping Korean players because of one or two tournament results, but I have to agree that it's to risky for foreigners to go to Korea for the qualifiers. Hopefully they will chose better players (except Huk) next season and I hope that the Liquid players will take the opportunity and stay in Code A. Edit: I'm not saying that ret, haypro and moonglade won't have a chance to qualify for code s but I think that other players from Europe and America would have bigger chances.
m00nglade beat loner, who is currently in code A, i dont get all the hate, players like ret and haypro do pretty well in european and north american tournaments for the most part, all this better player nonsense is trying to measure tiniest fractions based on online tournaments that have invites so some players dont even get in, or can't make it etc, there is no easy way to measure between the top 100 NA and EU players
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On January 31 2011 00:09 bennyaus wrote:
'A million other' is a massive exaggeration.
Mate, I don't know if you know, but Moonglade beat the guy that knocked Sen out of IEM (Loner), and is top 200 in KR server (achieved whilst in Aus). Bratok doesn't compete regularly in competitions outside Russia due to visa issues, and Incontrol whilst being a swell guy, doesn't have the credentials in tournaments that his fan base suggests.
At least choose some players who have a legitimate claim to one of these spots, if they wanted to compete they would come and attempt the Code A qualifiers, and we only saw VTSpades and VTTorch (+FXO/VT managers) attempting besides the Liquid guys. It is a completely fair concept that GOM only chose foreigners who were committed to attempting to qualify, to get an invite into the tournament, and even if they weren't, there are actually not that many other good choices.... You have to remember that many (if not all) of the top players from NA and EU are not willing to live in Korea right now (Example: WhiteRa, based on recent results, is maybe the best choice and he said he is only 50:50)
Bravo, it's almost like you understand hyperbole.
If GOM was really interested in a good sample of the best foreigners, they wouldn't have selected this political Liquid-circlejerk pool. GOM even established a foreigner house in Korea, supposedly to attract people. Ret failed hard, Haypro is not special, and Moonglade is just a wank for the Australians.
Your standard is also retarded. So if I (2200 Master's Protoss) moved to Korea, and I wanted to play in GSL real real bad, I would be more deserving than Sen/Incontrol/Bratok? Absurd.
Also, EG has been announcing forever that they are planning on a Korean invasion, so Incontrol Machine Demuslim are all valid options, using the foreigner house or whatever.
User was warned for this post
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EPT
