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On December 23 2010 01:19 Sewi wrote:Show nested quote +On December 23 2010 01:16 Pinith wrote:
If winning 11 out of the 18 finals is the only way to get the nice computer, this seems like a pretty logical conclusion two top players would come to. I'd say this is more a flaw in the tournament/prize setup than with the players No. Its part of the tournament that you have to be that good to win the computer. Like GSL ´, MLG etc would say, you only win money if you dont lose a single game. It would be stupid, but if you dont like it, dont play in it. Accept the rules/prices or dont play
GSL is exactly the example I'd use of a better tournament setup. There is a fixed prize pool split up amongst all players. The prize pool doesn't shrink if players have harder matches or based on some other arbitrary rulings. Giving out a smaller prize pool for better games is a bad tournament setup.
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Just ban them from tournaments just like TL did to Dimaga, RoX members and F91 from TSL 2 etc..
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On December 23 2010 01:08 busbarn wrote:
I'm glad atleast one site have the balls to report something fishy. Rakaka have never been shy to publish rumors, and in fact most of what they publish is/becomes true. Many sites fear that if they write something negative about a player or a team they'll never get an interview, hence we never get to know the real story most of the time.
Funny thing is rakaka always get alot of shit from teams and players in (and outside) sweden because of their ability to always dig up stuff like this, but you all forget how important it is to have an independent(somewhat anyway) source of news, especially in a "world" where you look up to players like morrow and sjow. Who is going to make sure it's fair play? The media ofc. You can't just find out about a thing like this and not publish.
Kind of like how Aftonbladet takes something innocent, takes a small portion of that, blows that waaaay out of proportion (leaving most of the vital information out) and repeats it over several days.
If you tell a lie enough times, people will think it's the truth.
+ Show Spoiler [Offtopic example] +
Example:
Few days ago there was a huge article about how violent video games affect kids in a bad way, and scientists had proved it.
And at the bottom of the article, they urged the readers to mail their story if they knew someone who had played too much video games.
The vital part that they left out (only news agency that actually included it, was the radio) was the scientist saying that their research had found no evidence of videogames affecting "normal kids". The only cases they got results, was when the child was mentally ill (ADHD), was hanging out in criminal gangs or had parents that fought alot for example. That combined with the kid playing violent video games in a few cases resulted in a violent kid.
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I think that if you're looking to do this as a profession, and you aren't one of the top 20 or so good enough to do it without cheating, maybe it's time you got a real job.....
Just saying.
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On December 23 2010 01:23 Spacemanspiff wrote:
Let me see if I understand this.
A tournament is set up so there is a bonus prize if you win 11/18 but this prize is not given out if a player only wins 10/18 but still won the tournament.
That seems like a poor idea for a prize since it encourages there only being 1 incredibly good player, but having 2 good players have close matches is discouraged.
Imagine this prize - winning a big non-Korean tournaments gives you a place in GSL Code A. Imagine Ret/Idra/Jinro dropping final games to someone just to have him get that invite. Pretty encouraging to drop a game, right, especially if the other player is his teammate?
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Lol tl.net drama queens... They even spoke to an admin beforehand, so how can it even be considered cheating?
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This kind of stuff looks bad for all the other pro gamers too..such a shame if true.
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On December 23 2010 01:27 hifriend wrote:
Lol tl.net drama queens... They even spoke to an admin beforehand, so how can it even be considered cheating?
One of them was kicked out after they "asked".
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I don't think it's cheating, but it's definitely collusion, and just as unethical.
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Sigh I support Sjow and Morrow.
What they did was basically telling the organizer kindly : " Hey i want to join your tournament but one of us will not play properly in the finals because it is more profitable to us that way. Can we do it?"
Upon being told by the organizer that : "No you can't do that. "
Then they says : Ok then only one of us will join.
I dont see a problem at all with this. Sure it sucks that 2 good players will not go at it to win the prize but the blame is on the poor tournament structure that it discourages competition. Sjow and Morrow didn't do anything wrong.
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On December 23 2010 01:27 hifriend wrote:
Lol tl.net drama queens... They even spoke to an admin beforehand, so how can it even be considered cheating?
"They were caught talking about doing it, since then they talked to the admins to ask if it was ok."
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As a Magic the Gathering player, this makes a lot of sense and isn't necessarily wrong. They talked to the admins, they said it wasn't allowed (obviously), so just one is playing. This happens all the time in terms of prize split in mtg tournaments. You can ask if a situation constitutes bribery, and if you get approval from a judge there's no problem with what you're doing. The fact that they were so transparent with admins about what they were doing means there really shouldn't be a problem. I think a lot of people are just trying to unnecessarily cause drama.
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On December 23 2010 01:21 zev318 wrote:
its like Idra throwing the final series vs QXC in EG masters for some extra cash, i bet all of you who thinks this isnt a big deal would fucking flip out.
It's not the same as that. First off, this isn't a big tournament, this is a tiny LAN that has an incentive for winning a lot of the series. Morrow and Sjow wanted to play the matches, but they also wouldn't want to eliminate each other from earning their prize.
Plenty of pro-gamers have done this in the past because they have little to no incentive to turn down an offer with the risk of losing thousands of dollars.
You work your butt off all year to get good, you finally get to the point where you are confident you can make it to the finals and get 10,000 bucks. But the opponent says look whoever wins this we'll split it 50-50. 2nd place is 2,000 dollars.
You would be fucking stupid not to split.
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8748 Posts
On December 23 2010 01:32 Playguuu wrote:
As a Magic the Gathering player, this makes a lot of sense and isn't necessarily wrong. They talked to the admins, they said it wasn't allowed (obviously), so just one is playing. This happens all the time in terms of prize split in mtg tournaments. You can ask if a situation constitutes bribery, and if you get approval from a judge there's no problem with what you're doing. The fact that they were so transparent with admins about what they were doing means there really shouldn't be a problem. I think a lot of people are just trying to unnecessarily cause drama.
Only naive people believe that they were always going to discuss it with admins before doing it. The message wasn't "let's ask the admins if we can do this" it was "let's do this" and then everyone saw it and then they were like "well everyone knows we're doing it now, so let's ask the admins if we can, then get turned down because it's obviously cheating, and then we'll act like we never meant to cheat"
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On December 23 2010 01:29 Treemonkeys wrote:Show nested quote +On December 23 2010 01:27 hifriend wrote:
Lol tl.net drama queens... They even spoke to an admin beforehand, so how can it even be considered cheating? One of them was kicked out after they "asked".
One of them elected not to sign up for the tournament after they asked. Stop trolling and read the thread -- or at least read the updated OP summarizing what the thread has said so far. Seriously.
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On December 23 2010 01:32 Playguuu wrote:
As a Magic the Gathering player, this makes a lot of sense and isn't necessarily wrong.
Starcraft is not a fucking trading card game.
On December 23 2010 01:33 Aberu wrote:Show nested quote +On December 23 2010 01:21 zev318 wrote:
its like Idra throwing the final series vs QXC in EG masters for some extra cash, i bet all of you who thinks this isnt a big deal would fucking flip out. Plenty of pro-gamers have done this in the past because they have little to no incentive to turn down an offer with the risk of losing thousands of dollars. You work your butt off all year to get good, you finally get to the point where you are confident you can make it to the finals and get 10,000 bucks. But the opponent says look whoever wins this we'll split it 50-50. 2nd place is 2,000 dollars. You would be fucking stupid not to split.
Moral of the story: when money is involved, it's stupid not to fix?
Do you behave the same way at your workplace, too?
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On December 23 2010 01:33 Aberu wrote:Show nested quote +On December 23 2010 01:21 zev318 wrote:
its like Idra throwing the final series vs QXC in EG masters for some extra cash, i bet all of you who thinks this isnt a big deal would fucking flip out. It's not the same as that. First off, this isn't a big tournament, this is a tiny LAN that has an incentive for winning a lot of the series. Morrow and Sjow wanted to play the matches, but they also wouldn't want to eliminate each other from earning their prize. Plenty of pro-gamers have done this in the past because they have little to no incentive to turn down an offer with the risk of losing thousands of dollars. You work your butt off all year to get good, you finally get to the point where you are confident you can make it to the finals and get 10,000 bucks. But the opponent says look whoever wins this we'll split it 50-50. 2nd place is 2,000 dollars. You would be fucking stupid not to split.
Why stop there? Why not the top 4 of GSL collude to just split their combined prize pool 4 ways? It's probably about 35-40 grand each, which is really nice if none of them are the absolute favorites.
It goes against the spirit of competition. People aren't going to like it no matter how many different ways you try to rationalize what they were trying to do.
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On December 23 2010 01:33 Aberu wrote:Show nested quote +On December 23 2010 01:21 zev318 wrote:
its like Idra throwing the final series vs QXC in EG masters for some extra cash, i bet all of you who thinks this isnt a big deal would fucking flip out. It's not the same as that. First off, this isn't a big tournament, this is a tiny LAN that has an incentive for winning a lot of the series. Morrow and Sjow wanted to play the matches, but they also wouldn't want to eliminate each other from earning their prize. Plenty of pro-gamers have done this in the past because they have little to no incentive to turn down an offer with the risk of losing thousands of dollars. You work your butt off all year to get good, you finally get to the point where you are confident you can make it to the finals and get 10,000 bucks. But the opponent says look whoever wins this we'll split it 50-50. 2nd place is 2,000 dollars. You would be fucking stupid not to split.
The fact that they were trying to take advantage of a smaller tournament only makes it worse. This line of reasoning is down right pathetic, they are generous to even offer a prize tournament. But fuck em because the prize isn't big enough? That is a great way to scare people off from sponsoring tournaments at all.
How about the pro's just come clean up all the ~$100 tournaments that are posted here, fix the matches, split the money, and the sponsor is left without even having good games to watch. Fuck em, it's just a small tournament. I hope you are starting to see how disgusting this thinking is.
Oh and yeah, forget pro-gamers, plenty of sports players have been getting paid to lose for a long fucking time. This does not make it good, or okay, or anything like that.
By your logic, pretty much every player would be "fucking stupid" to not get paid to lose, because it is less risky than trying to win.
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I can see why this is looked down upon, but I don't see why it's bad. The tournament prize is structured terribly. If I was a pro gamer playing at that tournament, I would probably do the same thing. If they just gave the computer to the first place winner regardless of how many tournaments he wins, this wouldn't be a problem.
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EPT
