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Morrow and Sjow Matchfixing? - Page 44

Forum Index > SC2 General
Post a Reply
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zev318
Profile Joined October 2010
Canada4306 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-12-22 17:00:17
December 22 2010 16:59 GMT
#861
"They were doing nothing wrong and this is not match fixing or conspiring to fix matches." - Ipp

Do you even know what the definition of match-fixing is??

Like do I need to copy paste from a dictionary or something for you?
Zorkmid
Profile Joined November 2008
4410 Posts
December 22 2010 17:00 GMT
#862
On December 23 2010 01:51 Ipp wrote:
These are actual people, not some robotic players for our amusement. Believe it or not, eSports isn't the most lucrative job and they have bills to pay. They were doing nothing wrong and this is not match fixing or conspiring to fix matches. It is simply them beating a poorly designed system, you can't have a loop hole in a tournament setup and expect a STRATEGY player to not see it; Halo maybe.


The solution to obtaining $$$ to pay your bills is not to CHEAT, contributing to only of the only dark perception clouds over SC2 and eSports in general that began with Savior's match fixing ring.

The solution would be to get good enough to earn a sponsor that can support you financially, or to get a fucking job. Maybe you can get a gig signing autographs and books in Las Vegas like Pete Rose has. This stuff makes me sick.
wachnlurn
Profile Joined September 2010
Korea (South)50 Posts
December 22 2010 17:00 GMT
#863
What are you talking about? That's like saying that the Chicago Black Sox scandal is okay. It damages the integrity of the sport if stuff like this happens. I really hope this is false. [/QUOTE]

the blacksox were paid by an outside source to throw the world series. if you compared that to this situation it would be like... the braves agreeing to let the yankees win the world series...but the yankees would split their bonus with the braves.
it doesnt really matter what the reward is or whos paying it if you look at it from a professional sports fans perspective and the league owners perspective its damaging to the sport.
"failure should be an experience, not a lifestyle"
idonthinksobro
Profile Joined December 2010
3138 Posts
December 22 2010 17:01 GMT
#864
i hope their teams kick them - they arent worthy to be on a "pro"-team its bad PR for the team - whenever someone now talks about their teams there still is a bitter feeling that it is a cheater team.

They are lucky that it is a small tournament so they most likely not getting banned from other tournaments but if they would be banned that is OK and they should accept it. I think that only 1 is going to play now is damage limitation and a poor try to clean their names.

To be honest a tourney in which you think you can get to the finals 18 times out of 18 games there is no need to cheat for a little bit extra prize money (especially if there is a step system so you guys get at least 9-9 both(assuming 10-8 >9-9)) also its totally fine to share the prize money but to rig games isnt- that greedy attitude just fucked up your team - think about it.
Hatsu
Profile Joined March 2010
United Kingdom474 Posts
December 22 2010 17:02 GMT
#865
Totalbiscuit really said everything that needed to be said. While this kind of behavior might not be illegal and might indeed make financial sense, it is rather embarassing and would never be accepted in any sport, not even at amateur level.

Also, I personally believe that the arguments given by Sjow prove my point.
Sedit qui timuit ne non succederet
razamanaz
Profile Joined August 2010
271 Posts
December 22 2010 17:04 GMT
#866
On December 23 2010 01:59 zev318 wrote:
"They were doing nothing wrong and this is not match fixing or conspiring to fix matches." - Ipp

Do you even know what the definition of match-fixing is??

Like do I need to copy paste from a dictionary or something for you?


Why did you take this one line out of context ?
zev318
Profile Joined October 2010
Canada4306 Posts
December 22 2010 17:05 GMT
#867
On December 23 2010 02:04 razamanaz wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 23 2010 01:59 zev318 wrote:
"They were doing nothing wrong and this is not match fixing or conspiring to fix matches." - Ipp

Do you even know what the definition of match-fixing is??

Like do I need to copy paste from a dictionary or something for you?


Why did you take this one line out of context ?


How is that out of context? I just felt it was stupid to say its not match fixing, when they are planning the outcome of a match.
Aberu
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States968 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-12-22 17:09:07
December 22 2010 17:05 GMT
#868
On December 23 2010 01:50 Treemonkeys wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 23 2010 01:42 Aberu wrote:
On December 23 2010 01:38 floor exercise wrote:
On December 23 2010 01:33 Aberu wrote:
On December 23 2010 01:21 zev318 wrote:
its like Idra throwing the final series vs QXC in EG masters for some extra cash, i bet all of you who thinks this isnt a big deal would fucking flip out.


It's not the same as that. First off, this isn't a big tournament, this is a tiny LAN that has an incentive for winning a lot of the series. Morrow and Sjow wanted to play the matches, but they also wouldn't want to eliminate each other from earning their prize.

Plenty of pro-gamers have done this in the past because they have little to no incentive to turn down an offer with the risk of losing thousands of dollars.

You work your butt off all year to get good, you finally get to the point where you are confident you can make it to the finals and get 10,000 bucks. But the opponent says look whoever wins this we'll split it 50-50. 2nd place is 2,000 dollars.

You would be fucking stupid not to split.


Why stop there? Why not the top 4 of GSL collude to just split their combined prize pool 4 ways? It's probably about 35-40 grand each, which is really nice if none of them are the absolute favorites.

It goes against the spirit of competition. People aren't going to like it no matter how many different ways you try to rationalize what they were trying to do.


Well the fact is, it goes on all the time. Without anyone knowing. And when people are transparent it's a scandal. The pro teams from korea get paid well enough where they don't have a survival issue where they would do this. I had met progamers that were damn hear homeless from games that don't have the awesome sponsorship, and every win with their immense talent was important. They would always make top 4 at tournaments, but due to the crappy payouts they would split. Just because they were splitting doesn't mean they wouldn't play out the match, and try their best to win. The finals matches of smash were always amazing, but everyone splits. Because competition is more important to that community than who gets the money. If everyone splits, they will still try their absolute best to win, because winning matters more.


That's like saying this murder is okay because there are plenty of others you never knew about.



Hey murder is the same as trying to make money from a tournament!

On December 23 2010 02:00 Zorkmid wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 23 2010 01:51 Ipp wrote:
These are actual people, not some robotic players for our amusement. Believe it or not, eSports isn't the most lucrative job and they have bills to pay. They were doing nothing wrong and this is not match fixing or conspiring to fix matches. It is simply them beating a poorly designed system, you can't have a loop hole in a tournament setup and expect a STRATEGY player to not see it; Halo maybe.


The solution to obtaining $$$ to pay your bills is not to CHEAT, contributing to only of the only dark perception clouds over SC2 and eSports in general that began with Savior's match fixing ring.

The solution would be to get good enough to earn a sponsor that can support you financially, or to get a fucking job. Maybe you can get a gig signing autographs and books in Las Vegas like Pete Rose has. This stuff makes me sick.


You are saying you want them to quit the thing they are awesome at, and have worked hard to be awesome at, and just get a regular ol job? You must not love e-sports.

You are also suggesting they write books about starcraft, and then sell their autographs at events in Las Vegas. I think you are officially the most unrealistic poster in this thread.
srsly
Minus`
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
United States174 Posts
December 22 2010 17:06 GMT
#869
On December 23 2010 02:01 idonthinksobro wrote:
i hope their teams kick them - they arent worthy to be on a "pro"-team its bad PR for the team - whenever someone now talks about their teams there still is a bitter feeling that it is a cheater team.

They are lucky that it is a small tournament so they most likely not getting banned from other tournaments but if they would be banned that is OK and they should accept it. I think that only 1 is going to play now is damage limitation and a poor try to clean their names.

To be honest a tourney in which you think you can get to the finals 18 times out of 18 games there is no need to cheat for a little bit extra prize money (especially if there is a step system so you guys get at least 9-9 both(assuming 10-8 >9-9)) also its totally fine to share the prize money but to rig games isnt- that greedy attitude just fucked up your team - think about it.

I don't think so, bro.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=7378351
[11:02:30 PM] <gryzor> calling coh an rts is like calling an sheep a car
zev318
Profile Joined October 2010
Canada4306 Posts
December 22 2010 17:06 GMT
#870
On December 23 2010 02:05 Aberu wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 23 2010 01:50 Treemonkeys wrote:
On December 23 2010 01:42 Aberu wrote:
On December 23 2010 01:38 floor exercise wrote:
On December 23 2010 01:33 Aberu wrote:
On December 23 2010 01:21 zev318 wrote:
its like Idra throwing the final series vs QXC in EG masters for some extra cash, i bet all of you who thinks this isnt a big deal would fucking flip out.


It's not the same as that. First off, this isn't a big tournament, this is a tiny LAN that has an incentive for winning a lot of the series. Morrow and Sjow wanted to play the matches, but they also wouldn't want to eliminate each other from earning their prize.

Plenty of pro-gamers have done this in the past because they have little to no incentive to turn down an offer with the risk of losing thousands of dollars.

You work your butt off all year to get good, you finally get to the point where you are confident you can make it to the finals and get 10,000 bucks. But the opponent says look whoever wins this we'll split it 50-50. 2nd place is 2,000 dollars.

You would be fucking stupid not to split.


Why stop there? Why not the top 4 of GSL collude to just split their combined prize pool 4 ways? It's probably about 35-40 grand each, which is really nice if none of them are the absolute favorites.

It goes against the spirit of competition. People aren't going to like it no matter how many different ways you try to rationalize what they were trying to do.


Well the fact is, it goes on all the time. Without anyone knowing. And when people are transparent it's a scandal. The pro teams from korea get paid well enough where they don't have a survival issue where they would do this. I had met progamers that were damn hear homeless from games that don't have the awesome sponsorship, and every win with their immense talent was important. They would always make top 4 at tournaments, but due to the crappy payouts they would split. Just because they were splitting doesn't mean they wouldn't play out the match, and try their best to win. The finals matches of smash were always amazing, but everyone splits. Because competition is more important to that community than who gets the money. If everyone splits, they will still try their absolute best to win, because winning matters more.


That's like saying this murder is okay because there are plenty of others you never knew about.



Hey murder is the same as trying to make money from a tournament!


People do kill for money.
VoirDire
Profile Joined February 2009
Sweden1923 Posts
December 22 2010 17:06 GMT
#871
Anyone here who can PM me the relevant logs from #swe.sc2?
Rabbitmaster
Profile Joined August 2010
1357 Posts
December 22 2010 17:07 GMT
#872
I actually saw this live on sjows stream and im swedish so i understood what they were talking about. Tbh i didnt interpret it as match fixing in any way.
God is dead.
JJEOS
Profile Joined September 2010
United States127 Posts
December 22 2010 17:12 GMT
#873
LOL so many TL'ers crying about this.
If at first you don't suceed, deny you were ever apart of it.
Aberu
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States968 Posts
December 22 2010 17:12 GMT
#874
On December 23 2010 02:06 zev318 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 23 2010 02:05 Aberu wrote:
On December 23 2010 01:50 Treemonkeys wrote:
On December 23 2010 01:42 Aberu wrote:
On December 23 2010 01:38 floor exercise wrote:
On December 23 2010 01:33 Aberu wrote:
On December 23 2010 01:21 zev318 wrote:
its like Idra throwing the final series vs QXC in EG masters for some extra cash, i bet all of you who thinks this isnt a big deal would fucking flip out.


It's not the same as that. First off, this isn't a big tournament, this is a tiny LAN that has an incentive for winning a lot of the series. Morrow and Sjow wanted to play the matches, but they also wouldn't want to eliminate each other from earning their prize.

Plenty of pro-gamers have done this in the past because they have little to no incentive to turn down an offer with the risk of losing thousands of dollars.

You work your butt off all year to get good, you finally get to the point where you are confident you can make it to the finals and get 10,000 bucks. But the opponent says look whoever wins this we'll split it 50-50. 2nd place is 2,000 dollars.

You would be fucking stupid not to split.


Why stop there? Why not the top 4 of GSL collude to just split their combined prize pool 4 ways? It's probably about 35-40 grand each, which is really nice if none of them are the absolute favorites.

It goes against the spirit of competition. People aren't going to like it no matter how many different ways you try to rationalize what they were trying to do.


Well the fact is, it goes on all the time. Without anyone knowing. And when people are transparent it's a scandal. The pro teams from korea get paid well enough where they don't have a survival issue where they would do this. I had met progamers that were damn hear homeless from games that don't have the awesome sponsorship, and every win with their immense talent was important. They would always make top 4 at tournaments, but due to the crappy payouts they would split. Just because they were splitting doesn't mean they wouldn't play out the match, and try their best to win. The finals matches of smash were always amazing, but everyone splits. Because competition is more important to that community than who gets the money. If everyone splits, they will still try their absolute best to win, because winning matters more.


That's like saying this murder is okay because there are plenty of others you never knew about.



Hey murder is the same as trying to make money from a tournament!


People do kill for money.


Quit trolling, I was calling him out on his slippery-slope fallacy.
srsly
Zocat
Profile Joined April 2010
Germany2229 Posts
December 22 2010 17:13 GMT
#875
On December 23 2010 01:21 zev318 wrote:
its like Idra throwing the final series vs QXC in EG masters for some extra cash, i bet all of you who thinks this isnt a big deal would fucking flip out.


This is my thought exactly.
"Hey IdrA wanna earn 500$? Just let me win the games". (I assume the notebook is worth more than 500$^^)
"Ok, deal, just 2rax me, it's strong enough to beat me when I make some tiny mistakes and no one will know".

Or what will happen in GSL Code S?
Think about the oGs group (Nada, MC, Inca) + sanZenith.
Imagine 1 oGs player (let's call him MC^^) is qualified. sanZenith pulls a miracle and is tied for 2nd place with another oGs player. That oGs player is playing MC last. Should MC let him win so 2 oGs players advance? Even though MC is the better player and would normally beat him which would lead to sanZenith advancing?


The tournament format is strange, sure.
It sounds similiar to premiums (like in football contracts, where players get more money for goals, advancing in tournaments, minimum league rankings,...) but in this case it's tournament side not sponsor/club side.
But I dont think "Oh this sucks - I will try everything to exploit the system" is a good way to solve those problems. Reminds me of the Morrow ESL casting incident where he also acted first and sought communication later. Ah well - maybe it's just his age
Utinni
Profile Joined November 2010
Canada1196 Posts
December 22 2010 17:14 GMT
#876
So... What I am gathering from this 44 page thread is that Morrow and Sjow discussed the format of this tourney.... asked beforehand if it was ok to play the tourney a certain way (I guess forfeiting matches to make sure it wasn't cheating). They were then denied that route so one of them is going to sit out and let the other win and split the winnings?

What is wrong with that?

Why are there so many haters?

Did they do anything wrong besides talk about what can and can't be done?

Why are so many people so willing to believe a source which is known for bad journalism?

Anyways.... It is a bad format for a tourney... and all this is doing is feeding that terrible site free hits for being terrible at reporting news. le sigh.

“... you don’t have to be Sun freakin Tzu to know that real fighting isn’t about killing or even hurting the other guy, it’s about scaring him enough to call it a day.” - Max Brooks: World War Z
GreEny K
Profile Joined February 2008
Germany7312 Posts
December 22 2010 17:15 GMT
#877
On December 23 2010 01:43 hidiliho wrote:
This feels like it's being blown out of proportion. Cheating is bad yes. But it's such a small tournament and they shouldn't get crucified internationally for it.

It's like if
1. Micheal Jordan and Larry Bird cheated in a street basketball game tournament
2. It gets leaked on you tube
3. public demands for their heads to be cut off


Wow that is the worst comparison I have ever seen in my entire life. Try this one, it would make more sense evern though I don't agree with it at all.


1. Michael Jordan and Larry Bird cheat in a minor leage tournament.
2. Gets leaked
3. We want their heads.

See what I did there?

Not the big leagues, but the people in it still take it seriously.
Why would you ever choose failure, when success is an option.
Hirnfrost
Profile Joined May 2010
Germany938 Posts
December 22 2010 17:16 GMT
#878
On December 22 2010 23:41 Ipp wrote:
[...]Do you honestly think a previous IEM winner is stupid enough to talk about match fixing while streaming?[...]

It´s not the first time he is did something like that.
There was an ESL-tournament where he didn´t invite the ESL-streamer to his game and apologised afterwards for doing so. But to a different streamer (bigt) he wrote that he told ESL he regrets it, but in reality he doesn´t... to a streamer who has about 1-2k viewers...
and now he got caught on his OWN stream...

And just because nothing happened doesn´t mean that it couldn´t have happened.
I can kind of understand their point of view, financially it is a no brainer as Ipp said.
But it´s still a shame from a sports perspective.
After Mondays and Tuesdays even the Calender says W T F
DuckSausage
Profile Joined March 2009
United States83 Posts
December 22 2010 17:16 GMT
#879
The community demands blood!
Do not want.
REDBLUEGREEN
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
Germany1904 Posts
December 22 2010 17:16 GMT
#880
On December 23 2010 02:12 JJEOS wrote:
LOL so many TL'ers crying about this.

LOL so many TL'ers without integrity and morals.
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