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On December 23 2010 01:36 Liquid`Tyler wrote:Show nested quote +On December 23 2010 01:32 Playguuu wrote:
As a Magic the Gathering player, this makes a lot of sense and isn't necessarily wrong. They talked to the admins, they said it wasn't allowed (obviously), so just one is playing. This happens all the time in terms of prize split in mtg tournaments. You can ask if a situation constitutes bribery, and if you get approval from a judge there's no problem with what you're doing. The fact that they were so transparent with admins about what they were doing means there really shouldn't be a problem. I think a lot of people are just trying to unnecessarily cause drama. Only naive people believe that they were always going to discuss it with admins before doing it. The message wasn't "let's ask the admins if we can do this" it was "let's do this" and then everyone saw it and then they were like "well everyone knows we're doing it now, so let's ask the admins if we can, then get turned down because it's obviously cheating, and then we'll act like we never meant to cheat"
Obi Wan Nony speaks the truth. I think they tried to cover their asses after realizing this could screw their careers completely. If I were their respective team manager I would either not allow them to participate in tournaments for a while or kick them off the team for attempting this crap.
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On December 23 2010 01:34 Tomken wrote:
Still matchfixing.
Will people fucking calm down and get a grip. These are small tournaments with shit prices, and some of you is like omg MATCHFIXING BANN BANN BANN!
1. Nobody gives a shit about this tournament, there is absolutely no esteem in winning it.
2. They are not fixing matches unless you're sitting there betting money on them.
3. I do agree that it's bad sportsmanship and whatever, but what they want to do is their business, not yours.
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Until there are stiff penalties, and a governing body of eSports a la MLB (Pete Rose) or NCAA (UNLV) match fixing will continue to happen. I'm sure that it exists even now in some major eSport tournaments in a big way.
It's tough to detect unless you're a fucking tool and stream it live....
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On December 23 2010 01:40 Chairman Ray wrote:
I can see why this is looked down upon, but I don't see why it's bad. The tournament prize is structured terribly. If I was a pro gamer playing at that tournament, I would probably do the same thing. If they just gave the computer to the first place winner regardless of how many tournaments he wins, this wouldn't be a problem.
Worst excuse for cheating ever. You don't like the tournament, don't be a part of it.
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On December 23 2010 01:38 floor exercise wrote:Show nested quote +On December 23 2010 01:33 Aberu wrote:On December 23 2010 01:21 zev318 wrote:
its like Idra throwing the final series vs QXC in EG masters for some extra cash, i bet all of you who thinks this isnt a big deal would fucking flip out. It's not the same as that. First off, this isn't a big tournament, this is a tiny LAN that has an incentive for winning a lot of the series. Morrow and Sjow wanted to play the matches, but they also wouldn't want to eliminate each other from earning their prize. Plenty of pro-gamers have done this in the past because they have little to no incentive to turn down an offer with the risk of losing thousands of dollars. You work your butt off all year to get good, you finally get to the point where you are confident you can make it to the finals and get 10,000 bucks. But the opponent says look whoever wins this we'll split it 50-50. 2nd place is 2,000 dollars. You would be fucking stupid not to split. Why stop there? Why not the top 4 of GSL collude to just split their combined prize pool 4 ways? It's probably about 35-40 grand each, which is really nice if none of them are the absolute favorites. It goes against the spirit of competition. People aren't going to like it no matter how many different ways you try to rationalize what they were trying to do.
Well the fact is, it goes on all the time. Without anyone knowing. And when people are transparent it's a scandal. The pro teams from korea get paid well enough where they don't have a survival issue where they would do this. I had met progamers that were damn hear homeless from games that don't have the awesome sponsorship, and every win with their immense talent was important. They would always make top 4 at tournaments, but due to the crappy payouts they would split. Just because they were splitting doesn't mean they wouldn't play out the match, and try their best to win. The finals matches of smash were always amazing, but everyone splits. Because competition is more important to that community than who gets the money. If everyone splits, they will still try their absolute best to win, because winning matters more.
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Comeplete and utter bullshit. If you don't think your good enough to win than gtfo and get a job. Splitting a prize-pool is never right, hell if players do that i'd have no problem if the tournament organizers/sponsors refuse to give them the money because they didn't actually play, which is what they need to do to win the money.
PS: Really that was so stupid by them. If they wanted to do this than why the hell let everyone know? Show up at the tournament, get in the finals, than play games and make them look partially good and one player makes a bad attack intentionally and no one will guess, hell even make it a 2-1/3-2 or w/e.
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On December 23 2010 00:07 Sewi wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2010 23:26 cilinder007 wrote:On December 22 2010 22:06 Sewi wrote:On December 22 2010 22:00 cilinder007 wrote:On December 22 2010 21:56 Sewi wrote:
One thing that hasnt been pointed out enough imo is that it is unfair to the sponsors/organizers.
The rule says that the comp is given awy only if one player wins 11 finals. If not, no computer is given away. So matchfixing takes away the option that there is no computer to be given to any player.In a fair competition, the two finalists should try hard to win 11 final games, which is not easy.
Matchfixing in this case ruins the whole thought behind the tournaments system.
It is NOT the same as if there was a single finals with fixed price money, which both of them agree to share after the finals.
My oppinion about the actual two players:
I dont like that they think about doing something like this. And I dont think it makes them look smart when they discuss this while being on stream. Personally I think both should be banned from this specific tournament, now that it is all public. so because the touranment organisers didnt put a rule that this isnt alowed, they should be 'fair' enough to play for real and not get a computer just to please some people who think that they are the moral police and settle for a lesser prize while they can get a bigger and better prize without braking any rules ? Do you really think that? Would be interesting to know if any major tournament like MLG, IEM, GSL has something like "no matchfixing allowed" written in their rules. Seriously, it is just disrespectful to do something like that. And imo it is kinda obvious that matchfixing is NOT allowed at ANY tournament. YES THEY DO !!! if a rule is not written you dont have to follow it, PERIOD weather you choose something from a moral standpoint is up to you Our moral standpoints differ quite a bit then. And so does our understanding of e-sports, pcrices tournaments etc.
And so will your living address once the other guy tries to apply his principles in RL and gets caught...
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This feels like it's being blown out of proportion. Cheating is bad yes. But it's such a small tournament and they shouldn't get crucified internationally for it.
It's like if
1. Micheal Jordan and Larry Bird cheated in a street basketball game tournament
2. It gets leaked on you tube
3. public demands for their heads to be cut off
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On December 23 2010 01:41 goldfishs wrote:Will people fucking calm down and get a grip. These are small tournaments with shit prices, and some of you is like omg MATCHFIXING BANN BANN BANN! 1. Nobody gives a shit about this tournament, there is absolutely no esteem in winning it. 2. They are not fixing matches unless you're sitting there betting money on them. 3. I do agree that it's bad sportsmanship and whatever, but what they want to do is their business, not yours.
1. So because its not the GSL they should be allowed to match fix?
what?
2. They are fixing matches if one of them is forfeiting for no reason/losing intentionally
3. If one of them won the tournament legitimately and then decided to share the prize, yes. If one of them intentionally loses/forfeits 11 games so the other one can win and share with him, no.
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they could play their best game, give community something worth to watch without damaging the challenge spirit and then they could share the prize or just burn the fucking pc if they want.
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On December 23 2010 01:43 hidiliho wrote:
This feels like it's being blown out of proportion. Cheating is bad yes. But it's such a small tournament and they shouldn't get crucified internationally for it.
It's like if
1. Micheal Jordan and Larry Bird cheated in a street basketball game tournament
2. It gets leaked on you tube
3. public demands for their heads to be cut off
I would pay to have the organizers of this tournament come here and respond to some of posts like these. They probably put a lot of effort into setting up tournament and getting sponsors and prizes, and the people are like 'fuck them, it's a pathetic little tourney, it's ok to cheat there'
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On December 23 2010 01:43 hidiliho wrote:
1. Micheal Jordan and Larry Bird cheated in a street basketball game tournament
This only makes it worse. That would be like the lowest of low ways to cheat for someone like MJ. People would completely lose respect for him.
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On December 23 2010 01:42 Aberu wrote:Show nested quote +On December 23 2010 01:38 floor exercise wrote:On December 23 2010 01:33 Aberu wrote:On December 23 2010 01:21 zev318 wrote:
its like Idra throwing the final series vs QXC in EG masters for some extra cash, i bet all of you who thinks this isnt a big deal would fucking flip out. It's not the same as that. First off, this isn't a big tournament, this is a tiny LAN that has an incentive for winning a lot of the series. Morrow and Sjow wanted to play the matches, but they also wouldn't want to eliminate each other from earning their prize. Plenty of pro-gamers have done this in the past because they have little to no incentive to turn down an offer with the risk of losing thousands of dollars. You work your butt off all year to get good, you finally get to the point where you are confident you can make it to the finals and get 10,000 bucks. But the opponent says look whoever wins this we'll split it 50-50. 2nd place is 2,000 dollars. You would be fucking stupid not to split. Why stop there? Why not the top 4 of GSL collude to just split their combined prize pool 4 ways? It's probably about 35-40 grand each, which is really nice if none of them are the absolute favorites. It goes against the spirit of competition. People aren't going to like it no matter how many different ways you try to rationalize what they were trying to do. Well the fact is, it goes on all the time. Without anyone knowing. And when people are transparent it's a scandal. The pro teams from korea get paid well enough where they don't have a survival issue where they would do this. I had met progamers that were damn hear homeless from games that don't have the awesome sponsorship, and every win with their immense talent was important. They would always make top 4 at tournaments, but due to the crappy payouts they would split. Just because they were splitting doesn't mean they wouldn't play out the match, and try their best to win. The finals matches of smash were always amazing, but everyone splits. Because competition is more important to that community than who gets the money. If everyone splits, they will still try their absolute best to win, because winning matters more.
I don't disagree at all that it goes on. There's a reason these kind of things are back room arrangements though and not to be done in public on a stream. It's just really appallingly stupid of the parties involved. TL has banned people from TSL for things far less significant than fixing the outcome of a tourney with a payout of 2000-4000 euro.
Things like this really bring your integrity into question. It was just dumb
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On December 23 2010 01:42 Aberu wrote:Show nested quote +On December 23 2010 01:38 floor exercise wrote:On December 23 2010 01:33 Aberu wrote:On December 23 2010 01:21 zev318 wrote:
its like Idra throwing the final series vs QXC in EG masters for some extra cash, i bet all of you who thinks this isnt a big deal would fucking flip out. It's not the same as that. First off, this isn't a big tournament, this is a tiny LAN that has an incentive for winning a lot of the series. Morrow and Sjow wanted to play the matches, but they also wouldn't want to eliminate each other from earning their prize. Plenty of pro-gamers have done this in the past because they have little to no incentive to turn down an offer with the risk of losing thousands of dollars. You work your butt off all year to get good, you finally get to the point where you are confident you can make it to the finals and get 10,000 bucks. But the opponent says look whoever wins this we'll split it 50-50. 2nd place is 2,000 dollars. You would be fucking stupid not to split. Why stop there? Why not the top 4 of GSL collude to just split their combined prize pool 4 ways? It's probably about 35-40 grand each, which is really nice if none of them are the absolute favorites. It goes against the spirit of competition. People aren't going to like it no matter how many different ways you try to rationalize what they were trying to do. Well the fact is, it goes on all the time. Without anyone knowing. And when people are transparent it's a scandal. The pro teams from korea get paid well enough where they don't have a survival issue where they would do this. I had met progamers that were damn hear homeless from games that don't have the awesome sponsorship, and every win with their immense talent was important. They would always make top 4 at tournaments, but due to the crappy payouts they would split. Just because they were splitting doesn't mean they wouldn't play out the match, and try their best to win. The finals matches of smash were always amazing, but everyone splits. Because competition is more important to that community than who gets the money. If everyone splits, they will still try their absolute best to win, because winning matters more.
That's like saying this murder is okay because there are plenty of others you never knew about.
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On December 23 2010 01:41 goldfishs wrote:Will people fucking calm down and get a grip. These are small tournaments with shit prices, and some of you is like omg MATCHFIXING BANN BANN BANN! 1. Nobody gives a shit about this tournament, there is absolutely no esteem in winning it. 2. They are not fixing matches unless you're sitting there betting money on them. 3. I do agree that it's bad sportsmanship and whatever, but what they want to do is their business, not yours.
Terrible fallacious argument.
The size of the tournament has no bearing on whether or not it is ok to do something like this.
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I'm ashamed that these players are from Sweden, and am sad so many people are defending their actions.
Its not about if its cheating or not, its about trusting the players to do their best. Its boring to watch a rigged game. Once a player plays a rigged game they have a soiled reputation forever, however unimportant the game was.
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On December 23 2010 00:31 Almisael wrote:
hmm there has to be something wrong with that:
ipp says:
"They were caught talking about doing it, since then they talked to the admins to ask if it was ok. The admin said no, so one of them will drop out but they will still share the prize."
and the op says:
"As if this wasn't enough, Rakaka have received reports that one of the admins of Inferno Online's SC2-tournament, the well known Swedish SC2-commentator and tournament admin Marcel "Maven" Mattsson, has given his "approval" for the planed throwaway game."
so one says "no" the other one "yes" -_-;.
I'm not going to dig up a post by SjoW but he stated that one of them is no longer playing. While SjoW and MorroW both speak English very well; translations don't always come out right and it's definitely possible the translators miss snippets.
Also if i had a dollar every time tournament admins change their mind or have a disagreement. I think the moral to this story is tournaments shouldn't be set up like this as it provokes this type of behavior all prizes should be set in stone.
These are actual people, not some robotic players for our amusement. Believe it or not, eSports isn't the most lucrative job and they have bills to pay. They were doing nothing wrong and this is not match fixing or conspiring to fix matches. It is simply them beating a poorly designed system, you can't have a loop hole in a tournament setup and expect a STRATEGY player to not see it; Halo maybe.
Everyone makes mistakes, from my eyes this is Rakaka's mistake for slander; it sucks thats SjoW and MorroW's rep will get hurt
Edit: The matches NEVER took place. There is no confirmation one was going to throw a match; they could of simply just forfeited in the finals. It's not match fixing if there is no match.
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On December 23 2010 01:36 Liquid`Tyler wrote:Show nested quote +On December 23 2010 01:32 Playguuu wrote:
As a Magic the Gathering player, this makes a lot of sense and isn't necessarily wrong. They talked to the admins, they said it wasn't allowed (obviously), so just one is playing. This happens all the time in terms of prize split in mtg tournaments. You can ask if a situation constitutes bribery, and if you get approval from a judge there's no problem with what you're doing. The fact that they were so transparent with admins about what they were doing means there really shouldn't be a problem. I think a lot of people are just trying to unnecessarily cause drama. Only naive people believe that they were always going to discuss it with admins before doing it. The message wasn't "let's ask the admins if we can do this" it was "let's do this" and then everyone saw it and then they were like "well everyone knows we're doing it now, so let's ask the admins if we can, then get turned down because it's obviously cheating, and then we'll act like we never meant to cheat"
That Sjow said "Make sure it's ok. I don't want to cheat" in the very same conversation - how does that fit with your 'theory'?
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Rakaka is a fun fun website. They call themselves for the sensational tabloid of E-gaming and love to write about all kinds of e-gaming gossip and drama. Gotta love them
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On December 23 2010 01:51 Kaboo wrote:
I'm ashamed that these players are from Sweden, and am sad so many people are defending their actions.
Its not about if its cheating or not, its about trusting the players to do their best. Its boring to watch a rigged game. Once a player plays a rigged game they have a soiled reputation forever, however unimportant the game was.
They actually didn't cheat. If you read the update... They were initially "give(n) the go ahead for the two to throwaway games" by the admins.
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EPT
