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Canada11259 Posts
On November 10 2010 18:44 robertdinh wrote:
Yep unfortunately some people don't understand that separating gaming tourneys by gender does nothing to perpetuate the competitive aspect of gaming, it only holds it back.
And unfortunately some that don't understand that start throwing out personal attacks to anyone that does understand that.
A few decades ago in america it was also believed that women couldn't be as effective in the workplace as men.
If we had just agreed and accepted that we would be pretty silly, but progressive thinkers who were met with strong opposition slowly broke down such misconceptions. They were also called stupid, or ridiculous by people who didn't agree with them.
And yes... there were housewives that didn't see the big picture and personally preferred not having that equal shot at the corporate world, doesn't mean it was good for the long term.
Now obviously the social impact of female gaming tournaments is not to the degree of workplace equality, but there is a similar dynamic at play.
Oh for heaven's sake. No-one's saying they shouldn't compete in the GSL. The tournaments are open and I'd more than happy to see them try out for the other tournaments. The main issue is why you and yours feel the need to crap on these threads by saying women shouldn't have the option to play in a tournament together. Do you also feel the need to crash a girls-only parties?
Also, are you seriously paralleling the current RTS gamer girls to myopic house wives? The women that are actually pioneers in the RTS gaming world that has been traditionally male only? Among games, RTS in particular has seen very little women players.
I feel like you're trying to build the roof before the foundation- we don't have tens of thousands of women trying to break into these tournaments as top-notch gamers. We're still at the recruitment stage. The progressives actually had a critical mass of women wanting to work- we don't have that yet.
As long as we're discussing progressive thinkers- consider this initiative from the same era- affirmative action. Then consider, this was just a game and these women were having fun. But for some reason you feel the need to tell these pioneers to stop having fun and that they're somehow being sexist against themselves.
Congrats to pikachu by the way.
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Seems like most posters don't realise this and it's not really mentioned in the interview, but Linda Liao is a famous singer/actor and the host of a show on chinese MTV, amongst other things.
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Wow. Chill as fuck interview, lol.
Definitely made me a fan.
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On November 10 2010 18:36 PandaPolice wrote:
Let me draw an example from the last Super Street Fighter 4 EVO tournament. It's exactly because there's a separate female tournament, all the girls who could have fought in the main tournament joined it instead, it separates the competition when there's simply no need to. The girls end up with less prestigious title, less reward, and limited chances at more winnings.
It's not like they are bad at the game too, they are GOOD. They can placed themselves easily amongst the top 25, but they got placed in the female tournament where there is such a smaller pool, and the result is a small 8 player tournament that is a whole lot of weird during EVO. Now nobody even heard of those girls any more, and everyone regarded that experiment as a fail. This is why I don't like separating the tournament.
What stopped the girls from joining the main tournament? Were they not allowed? Why couldn't they join both?
In my opinion, girls should be encouraged to join any tournaments. MVP awards can then be separated into genders and given out freely, like "Outstanding Female Commander" or "Lady of the tournament" alongside the normal guy's version. This not only give incentive for gals to participate in any big tournaments, but also ranked them accordingly in the big pool of competitors as well as acknowledgement of their skill in gaming. Sponsors can also scout out potential female players and know their performance without any separation of pools to cloud their judgement.
This actually sounds a lot more sexist than having an all-female tournament...what if a girl wins? We give an "Outstanding Male Commander" award to the best dude?
Also congrats Linda!
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On November 10 2010 20:18 Penetrates wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2010 18:36 PandaPolice wrote:
Let me draw an example from the last Super Street Fighter 4 EVO tournament. It's exactly because there's a separate female tournament, all the girls who could have fought in the main tournament joined it instead, it separates the competition when there's simply no need to. The girls end up with less prestigious title, less reward, and limited chances at more winnings.
It's not like they are bad at the game too, they are GOOD. They can placed themselves easily amongst the top 25, but they got placed in the female tournament where there is such a smaller pool, and the result is a small 8 player tournament that is a whole lot of weird during EVO. Now nobody even heard of those girls any more, and everyone regarded that experiment as a fail. This is why I don't like separating the tournament. What stopped the girls from joining the main tournament? Were they not allowed? Why couldn't they join both? Show nested quote +
In my opinion, girls should be encouraged to join any tournaments. MVP awards can then be separated into genders and given out freely, like "Outstanding Female Commander" or "Lady of the tournament" alongside the normal guy's version. This not only give incentive for gals to participate in any big tournaments, but also ranked them accordingly in the big pool of competitors as well as acknowledgement of their skill in gaming. Sponsors can also scout out potential female players and know their performance without any separation of pools to cloud their judgement.
This actually sounds a lot more sexist than having an all-female tournament...what if a girl wins? We give an "Outstanding Male Commander" award to the best dude? Also congrats Linda!
1) I have no idea why they didn't join both. Did they perhaps feel the existence of a female only tournament automatically excludes females from the main tourny? Did they tried to apply to the main tourny and got placed in the female only tournament? I have no idea, I only saw the result, and it's sad.
2) I am referring to those prizes as MVP-type prizes, which are not always given to player(s) who wins, sometimes it's given to the player(s) who shown the most improvements, performed the most dramatic comeback, etc. You know, sub categories, so combine the competition, but acknowledge outstanding skill performance for those who displays it.
e.g
MVP (male category)
MVP (female category)
These are given out no matter who the final winner is. I really don't know how much simpler I can explain it.
Edit: Anyway last post, don't wanna further derail the thread. Again, big grats to Linda!
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you go girl!11111 so awesome :-]
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Interesting interview! I dont know why I found that more interesting than usual. Is it because it's a cute girl... Oh no I am becoming one of those TL creeps you hear about on the Taiwanese news and feminist blogs!
Seriously though, great to see sc2 growing. Maybe she can even help it spread more to females.
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In the rear with the gear?
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On November 10 2010 06:22 Tenks wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2010 06:18 simme123 wrote:
To be honest I just don't see what's so remarkable she's a girl and she plays starcraft .. what am I missing here? I have to side with this overall sentiment. Not to mention those interview answers were asinine. Most of the time they either lacked any real answer, gave a joke answer or just said something was cute.
Asinine? Really? Sexism really is a problem around here.
There was a sc2 tourney. She won it. Why wouldn't she get recognition? Good for her. No one makes fun of the women 100 meter runners in the Olympics because they're slower than the men. They're still faster than you'll ever be. And she probably is too.
edit: Her answers were fun instead of robotic. Isn't that what everyone always wants around here? Personality? Look inwardly man, you got issues if you had a problem with that interview.
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On November 10 2010 05:54 SmoKim wrote:so that's why people thought Terran were OP
someone better call Satoshi Tajiri(wiki biatch'z) and complain about this imbaness.
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Look at it this way (all of you who are insulted by this interview) :
There are at least 31 girls (number of participants, right?) who thought that a female only tournament was such a good idea that they signed up. It also seems that many of those girls had fun during the tournament. Some of those girls are going to join the next tournament as well. So we have (small) number of girls which all agree that a female only tournament is a fun thing to do and a company (ESL) providing them with the opportunity to do what they like. Where's the problem?
It doesn't really matter whether female tournaments are sexist or not (and keep in mind that there are very few absolute truths). So as long as we remember that everyone are entitled to their own opinion, let's just acknowledge that there are at least 31 persons who chose for themselves to participate in a female-only tournament. It might be that the other 3 billion females in the world boycotted it on grounds of being sexist, but we have at least 31 persons who didn't and I certainly don't mind them having a good time together, nor do I feel that I have any say in how ESL should spend their money, as I'm not a shareholder and they're free to do whatever they like.
Moreover, I don't find any moral implications in interviewing someone who won a tournament and wasn't the best in the world. Even TeamLiquid has had interviews with people who were not best, nor did they even win a tournament. There's been interviews with winners from the Ro8 of GSL, and not surprisingly, seven of those are going to be losers by the time of next saturday. BoxerR (The Emperor) has had several interviews and he hasn't won anything in SC2.
So where's the problem? Is it a problem that:
-A specific group of people get together and do something they like?
-That a company does something for only the benefit of a specific group of people instead of everyone?
-That a specific group of people are allowed to do something which, while it does not involve you in any way, you do not agree with?
-That a group which has a different view than yourself, gets media attention?
-That someone, who is not the best in the world, among the top10 in the world, top100, top any arbitrary number, is interviewed or gets media attention?
The way I see it, that's what this amounts to. Please try to pinpoint exactly where you feel you or anyone have been wronged.
You are free to think that a female only tournament is sexist and you are free to boycott it. Other people are free to think that a female only tournament is not sexist and they are free to participate in it. It doesn't really factor into the topic of this thread, which is about an interview with a winner of a tournament.
So, back on topic: Congratulations, Pikachu! Nice interview 
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On November 10 2010 18:36 PandaPolice wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Let me draw an example from the last Super Street Fighter 4 EVO tournament. It's exactly because there's a separate female tournament, all the girls who could have fought in the main tournament joined it instead, it separates the competition when there's simply no need to. The girls end up with less prestigious title, less reward, and limited chances at more winnings.
It's not like they are bad at the game too, they are GOOD. They can placed themselves easily amongst the top 25, but they got placed in the female tournament where there is such a smaller pool, and the result is a small 8 player tournament that is a whole lot of weird during EVO. Now nobody even heard of those girls any more, and everyone regarded that experiment as a fail. This is why I don't like separating the tournament.
In my opinion, girls should be encouraged to join any tournaments. MVP awards can then be separated into genders and given out freely, like "Outstanding Female Commander" or "Lady of the tournament" alongside the normal guy's version. This not only give incentive for gals to participate in any big tournaments, but also ranked them accordingly in the big pool of competitors as well as acknowledgement of their skill in gaming. Sponsors can also scout out potential female players and know their performance without any separation of pools to cloud their judgement.
Anyway, hope to see Linda progress far and participate in GSL/Blizz Invitational soon. In fact I hope to see more girls participate in supposedly "male-dominated" tournaments and kicking guy's ass. People who think girls needs pampering and need "their own tournaments for encouragement" should be the ones to "get over it" .
The problem with that tournament was that if you were in the female tournament, you weren't allowed in the male one. In this case, if you play in the female tournament, you can still play in any other SC tournament. The female only tournament acts as supplemental.
And of course girls should be encouraged to join any tournament, but consider, maybe a female is good enough to win or at least make an impact MLG or GSL tournament, however, it can be incredibly intimidating to enter. Now she sees another tournament that's only female, smaller scale, much less intimidating. She participates, realizes she's better than she thought, she enjoys the thrill of tournaments and it's something she'd like to pursue and now maybe she has the confidence to take part in these other tournaments.
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At first I thought it was the girl who does the Pikachu voice in Pokemon is also some sort of semi-pro SC2 player...
That would be so frickin' awesome.
...I guess this is cool too.
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The thread has devolved into something on the lines of insecure guys coming here to cry about how a female has more success than them in gaming and most likely in life as well. Seriously wipe your tears, not that big of a deal.
Q: If you were a StarCraft II unit, which one would it be?
A: I think I probably relate myself as a sentry summoned hallucinated colossi, can look intimidating at times but really no harm
How can you NOT like her? =)
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Personally I think that ever since we have had "womens liberation" since the 60s there is no more reason to have separate competitions for the two genders ... unless the activists are wrong and men and women arent "equal" in some way.
The whole tragedy of womens equality is that the activists actually taught the females of our species to behave like men to get equal rights. This is sooo illogical and it should have been the men who change in their attitude instead, but since both genders are supposed to be equal that should be true for competitions as well. Any of those which is gender specific should be considered bad by female rights activists ... especially a competition of "mental skills" should be equally hard for both men and women.
We dont need special cups for spanish speakers only, or chinese, or black people or ... and in the same way we do not need special competitions for women!
Now I can put down my pen which has been dipped in "condensed heavy sarcasm" to write this post.
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On November 11 2010 04:37 Rabiator wrote:
Personally I think that ever since we have had "womens liberation" since the 60s there is no more reason to have separate competitions for the two genders ... unless the activists are wrong and men and women arent "equal" in some way.
The whole tragedy of womens equality is that the activists actually taught the females of our species to behave like men to get equal rights. This is sooo illogical and it should have been the men who change in their attitude instead, but since both genders are supposed to be equal that should be true for competitions as well. Any of those which is gender specific should be considered bad by female rights activists ... especially a competition of "mental skills" should be equally hard for both men and women.
We dont need special cups for spanish speakers only, or chinese, or black people or ... and in the same way we do not need special competitions for women!
Now I can put down my pen which has been dipped in "condensed heavy sarcasm" to write this post.
There's a lot of contradiction with the "men and women are exactly the same" platitudes spouted by the modern multicultural pc police. There's plenty of anecdotal as well as scientific evidence to suggest that we are very different.
Regardless, I don't mind separate leagues. The purpose is not solely for more balanced competition, but simply to reach out to a wider audience. Nothing wrong with that. If you're a 12 year old asian girl, which league is likely to be more appealing?
The reason we don't have special leagues for different ethnicities is because there's a hell of a lot more difference between men and women of the same race than there is between two people of the same gender and different ethnicities.
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On November 11 2010 04:50 Drowsy wrote:
Regardless, I don't mind separate leagues. The purpose is not solely for more balanced competition, but simply to reach out to a wider audience. Nothing wrong with that. If you're a 12 year old asian girl, which league is likely to be more appealing?
If these leagues are going to be full of 12 year old asian girls, I'm going to go ahead and say there will probably be some problems. And that we should definitely have these leagues.
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Calgary25963 Posts
On November 10 2010 20:12 PH wrote:
Wow. Chill as fuck interview, lol.
Definitely made me a fan.
Yea, me too. It was really long and had a lot to say.
The only parts I found myself wanting more were about the strategic aspects. They really left me feeling like she either doesn't play at a very deep level or can't articulate it. I didn't mind that too much because I find English-speaking players, particularly Americans, tend to explain their tactics as if the game is 100 times more complicated than it is.
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Ugh I could go on, I just feel the people that think this is a tainted win, or its sexist or w/e are the people holding back the female gamers.
Its like a child growing up in a sport. The kid wins his little league baseball game, you dont tell him "but you didnt beat the yankees". No you congratulate him, and watch him get better. Next thing you know he is winning in HS, then college, then the pros. Its a mile marker.
I like the interview, and quite frankly, I do wish more questions were like the zerg one, it really brings top gamers back down into that, they started playing this game because they liked the game.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://www.wfbrood.com/sc2/UploadFiles_1348/201011/20101109104355936.jpg)
