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On October 01 2010 09:25 andrewlt wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2010 08:39 johngalt90 wrote:On October 01 2010 07:56 csfield wrote:On October 01 2010 07:46 Raiden X wrote:On October 01 2010 07:43 csfield wrote:
It's well-established that BW is only balanced through a miracle (and excellent map-makers), and not through Blizzard's foresight or understanding.
They had little to no idea how strategy would evolve. And the ingenuity of players. It wasn't until Boxer that people actually took Terran seriously. Or After that July to even out TvZ. BW went though countless stages of innovation. SC2 on the other hand with its Crappy hard counter system will take way more time to balance. As SCBW was more flexible with its units. The bonus damage counter system is stupid. Strategy should be more than rock/paper/scissors. ur an idiot. there also was dmg reduction in bw do you not remember explosive dmg from vultures tanks and dragoons. bw also revolved around abusing very powerful units (reaver, lurker, siege tank) these units werent hard countered by single units and by standards of starcraft 2 would be nerfed into a former shadow of themselves (the siege tank stands as a great example). armored and bonus vs armor etc. doesnt work much differently from the bw dmg functions You're joking, right? In BW, there were only 3 damage types. Normal did 100% against everything, explosive did 100% to large, 75% to medium and 50% to small, concussive did 25% to large, 50% to medium and 100% to small. Doing it the SC2 way, you could say that concussive had a 4x bonus to small compared to large. There are only 3 units I recall with concussive (vulture, firebat and ghost). 2 of these are rarely used in normal play. That means BW has virtually no units with more than a 2x damage modifier. How many units in SC2 deal more than 2x the damage against one type of armor compared to other types? Way too freaking many.
Reaper, Immortal, Ultralisk.
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On October 01 2010 08:13 StarStruck wrote:
Actually there is. Look at the game manuals, or the credits. There is a shortlist of guys who stuck around with Blizzard.
Bill Roper led the SC:BW team. Now we have Dustin. That's just a starting point.
Stop trolling. You aren't contributing anything.
I wasn't going to respond to this thread because it is filled by misinformation from the start, but this really took the cake. Bill Roper didn't lead the SC:BW team, Rob Pardo did.
Rob Pardo is VP for game design at Blizzard today, in other words Dustin Browder's boss.
Bill Roper started out helping out with the sound with Warcraft 1, then later on he became a producer and director at Blizzard. He never did any actual game design, he was a glorified PR person. Just look how successful his career was after leaving Blizzard.
Regarding the rest of the garbage you posted, you are also wrong there. Around half of those that worked on Starcraft is still at Blizzard today. 50% turnover after 12 years is a really low number in the game industry.
Not to mention most of the key people behind Brood War are still there, like the previous mentioned Rob Pardo, that was the lead designer for Brood War.
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On October 01 2010 09:36 Teddyman wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2010 09:25 andrewlt wrote:On October 01 2010 08:39 johngalt90 wrote:On October 01 2010 07:56 csfield wrote:On October 01 2010 07:46 Raiden X wrote:On October 01 2010 07:43 csfield wrote:
It's well-established that BW is only balanced through a miracle (and excellent map-makers), and not through Blizzard's foresight or understanding.
They had little to no idea how strategy would evolve. And the ingenuity of players. It wasn't until Boxer that people actually took Terran seriously. Or After that July to even out TvZ. BW went though countless stages of innovation. SC2 on the other hand with its Crappy hard counter system will take way more time to balance. As SCBW was more flexible with its units. The bonus damage counter system is stupid. Strategy should be more than rock/paper/scissors. ur an idiot. there also was dmg reduction in bw do you not remember explosive dmg from vultures tanks and dragoons. bw also revolved around abusing very powerful units (reaver, lurker, siege tank) these units werent hard countered by single units and by standards of starcraft 2 would be nerfed into a former shadow of themselves (the siege tank stands as a great example). armored and bonus vs armor etc. doesnt work much differently from the bw dmg functions You're joking, right? In BW, there were only 3 damage types. Normal did 100% against everything, explosive did 100% to large, 75% to medium and 50% to small, concussive did 25% to large, 50% to medium and 100% to small. Doing it the SC2 way, you could say that concussive had a 4x bonus to small compared to large. There are only 3 units I recall with concussive (vulture, firebat and ghost). 2 of these are rarely used in normal play. That means BW has virtually no units with more than a 2x damage modifier. How many units in SC2 deal more than 2x the damage against one type of armor compared to other types? Way too freaking many. Reaper, Immortal, Ultralisk.
How about hellion, marauders, ghosts, phoenixes, banelings, thors(air), voidrays?
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On October 01 2010 07:52 Acritter wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2010 07:41 Ndugu wrote:
What are you on about? You outright contradict yourself.
Starcraft was never balanced.
How long did it take for Brood War to get released? How long after that did balance patches come out? 2 and a half years as you said, and then there were still a few patches.
It is perfectly reasonable that SCII isn't flawlessly balanced yet. The main problem is that the changes are so incredibly tentative (as compared to the relatively major SC1 patches) that it'll take forever for them to make it balanced at the current rate. If Blizzard could develop the balls to make many changes across the board, then we could see some real change in the matchups, and balance would go much faster. As-is, I'm expecting HotS to offer about as much content as a single SC1 patch. That's not good news for the pro scene, considering the current state of Zerg and Terran.
Its been stated by browder that the change to multiplayer seen from SC to BW will be analogous to whats coming with the zerg release.
Some of the posts in this thread are absurd.
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On October 01 2010 08:02 NATO wrote:
It seems ridiculous that people have been begging for balance changes super fast, when the game everyone praises - SC:BW had very long times between balance patches.
Which is exactly why they should be able to do things quicker now since they have had over a decade of experience of balancing a very similar game.
But I guess not much learning happened.
On October 01 2010 08:02 NATO wrote:I think the beta made everyone crazy - they think they are entitled to making whatever race they play more powerful right, now, and in the exact way they want. Says Terran.
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And Blue flame is way strong. Especially against lings. Roasting 50 lings is absurd. Every see a vulture mine even do that?
In a word: yes.
I can't even imagine the QQing if T had spider mine instead of blue flame. That ability was absurdly OP beyond anything in SC2 (like many BW abilities like dark swarm, irradiate, BW psi storm, BW stimpacks....)
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This whole Old Blizzard vs. New Blizzard argument that's going on is retarded.
Anybody who follows the BW scene knows that the community did more for balance than Blizzard did, and a lot of what made BW great was a mostly a fluke. The "Old" Blizzard didn't design SC1 with e-sports in mind because it never existed back then, so I find it strange when people God-worship the old employees when for the most part everything that made BW e-sports worthy was by accident. Blizzard still helped out a lot, but the "old" Blizzard did just as much as the "new" Blizzard is doing right now.
In two years I can guarantee that there will be FAR more changes to SC2 than Blizzard ever made to SC1. There's a lot more invested in this game than any other.
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On October 01 2010 09:43 AssuredVacancy wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2010 09:36 Teddyman wrote:On October 01 2010 09:25 andrewlt wrote:On October 01 2010 08:39 johngalt90 wrote:On October 01 2010 07:56 csfield wrote:On October 01 2010 07:46 Raiden X wrote:On October 01 2010 07:43 csfield wrote:
It's well-established that BW is only balanced through a miracle (and excellent map-makers), and not through Blizzard's foresight or understanding.
They had little to no idea how strategy would evolve. And the ingenuity of players. It wasn't until Boxer that people actually took Terran seriously. Or After that July to even out TvZ. BW went though countless stages of innovation. SC2 on the other hand with its Crappy hard counter system will take way more time to balance. As SCBW was more flexible with its units. The bonus damage counter system is stupid. Strategy should be more than rock/paper/scissors. ur an idiot. there also was dmg reduction in bw do you not remember explosive dmg from vultures tanks and dragoons. bw also revolved around abusing very powerful units (reaver, lurker, siege tank) these units werent hard countered by single units and by standards of starcraft 2 would be nerfed into a former shadow of themselves (the siege tank stands as a great example). armored and bonus vs armor etc. doesnt work much differently from the bw dmg functions You're joking, right? In BW, there were only 3 damage types. Normal did 100% against everything, explosive did 100% to large, 75% to medium and 50% to small, concussive did 25% to large, 50% to medium and 100% to small. Doing it the SC2 way, you could say that concussive had a 4x bonus to small compared to large. There are only 3 units I recall with concussive (vulture, firebat and ghost). 2 of these are rarely used in normal play. That means BW has virtually no units with more than a 2x damage modifier. How many units in SC2 deal more than 2x the damage against one type of armor compared to other types? Way too freaking many. Reaper, Immortal, Ultralisk. How about hellion, marauders, ghosts, phoenixes, banelings, thors(air), voidrays?
Marauders, ghosts, phoenixs banelings, thors do more than 2x the damage now? Need to update my patch, gogogo!
The problem with SC2, battle speed is not because of the damage system. It's because marines, zealots or any other unit (besides zlings) got attack speed boost, marines 1->0.86 and so on. Units attack much faster. Another reason is there are less tactics that stops battles (Lurker, plague, large AOE emp). Another reason is that now units clump up, dealing more DPS at the same time. Another reason is Marauders are do same damage as dragoons but with stim! with stim!
They are two different games, SC2 is more fast paced, get over it. Blizzard will help the game, metagame/maps should help too (Plz don't let blizzard maps be primary maps T-T). Only reason Blizzard is constantly patching sc2 is that, SC2 has high expectations. SC2 need to be balanced quick so SC1 pro players looks at SC2 as a good esport. That's how it is.
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On October 01 2010 07:58 Day[9] wrote:
I'm confused.
You claim blizzard is being slow w/ patching, that patching Starcraft was easy so, therefore, SC2 should be easy.
However, you present the fact that the major changes happened 6months+ after the game release, including the 4/18/01 Starcraft patch (3 years after release). I played Starcraft and Starcraft:Broodwar hardcore from the day they came out. 1.04 and 1.08 changed gigantic aspects of the game that deeply affected the way people played the game. They were awesome!
The length of time it took to balance Starcraft: Broodwar is EXACTLY why I'm not concerned about SC2 at this point. Starcraft 2 has been out for 2 months. I wouldn't be surprised if a gigantic balance patch came out 6-8 months after release.
Perhaps you should read the OP before acting confused? He claims that Blizzard is implying that balancing SC2 will take many many patches with many changes to get everything just right. Then he moves on to state that Starcraft and BW(which ended up with good balance) had a small number of patches with big changes, which is different from the model that Blizzard intends for SC2.
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On October 01 2010 10:10 hacpee wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2010 07:58 Day[9] wrote:
I'm confused.
You claim blizzard is being slow w/ patching, that patching Starcraft was easy so, therefore, SC2 should be easy.
However, you present the fact that the major changes happened 6months+ after the game release, including the 4/18/01 Starcraft patch (3 years after release). I played Starcraft and Starcraft:Broodwar hardcore from the day they came out. 1.04 and 1.08 changed gigantic aspects of the game that deeply affected the way people played the game. They were awesome!
The length of time it took to balance Starcraft: Broodwar is EXACTLY why I'm not concerned about SC2 at this point. Starcraft 2 has been out for 2 months. I wouldn't be surprised if a gigantic balance patch came out 6-8 months after release. Perhaps you should read the OP before acting confused? He claims that Blizzard is implying that balancing SC2 will take many many patches with many changes to get everything just right. Then he moves on to state that Starcraft and BW(which ended up with good balance) had a small number of patches with big changes, which is different from the model that Blizzard intends for SC2.
Would you rather have blizzard patch the game intermittently for the next two years or leave the game in its current state, wait two years and then release a massive patch. The only difference between the two is that the game gets better and better over time instead of staying the same until way down the road it is perfect.
People really need to calm down. The games have been made in completely different times. Back when brood war was released do you think everyone was this concerned over balance? Probably not. But now that we have televised tournaments this quickly after release, Blizzard has to balance frequently (read: less than 6 months in between each) and carefully so that they can make the game more and more balance without causing huge game changing problems (talking about balance not bugs) that can ruin a tournament.
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I can honestly tell u most ppl QQ-ing nowdays weren't even around when SC1 started, nor know the real history of SC1. Peopls should know that in SC1 Blizzard didn't do the balancing , the community did , and the players. They just QQ for the sake of QQ-ing every time they lose a match or w/e.
Even back then those "ProGamers" were constantly complaining about balance (much like it is right now) until some really really good players came along brought in some totally innovative play that brought various matchups to the balance.
Edit: The only difference is back then there weren't so many community forums to QQ on. And nowdays u can see everyone from the Progamers all the way to the Bronze Leagers posting threads and stuff for the sake of QQ-ing.
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You guys need to calm down, a big patch is coming up in 2011. That's no more than 4 months from now.
For now you just have to live with the fact that TvZ and PvZ are imbalanced, and that TvP is slightly favored towards terran.
EDIT: Balanced in BW came about through map designs. Just look at Battle Royale and Dreamliner.
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I like how blizzard went about making the balance changes in BW by increasing or decreasing costs and build times by smaller incraments rather than the larger damage nerfs they are doing now. Just my 2 cents. 
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On October 01 2010 09:36 Subversion wrote:
i dont get it.
chris sigaty says "a year or longer"
patch 1.8 came after 2 and a half years.
whats your point?
I'm also lost as to what the point of the post is. I saw the mod post on the first page but that still doesn't answer the question for me.
The OP seems to be implying that Brood War didn't take a long time to patch, and then saying it took 2.5 years.
That statement is pure opinion, as 2.5 years is "a long time" to a lot of people.
Additionally, if you look at it from another angle, the game was balanced about 2 years after the release of Brood War. By that metric, SC2 should be balanced 2 years after the release of Legacy of the Void.
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On October 01 2010 08:47 tacrats wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2010 08:21 The6357 wrote:
we just need players like jaedong and Flash that can ignore the balance...so people can stfu about balance...constantly complaining about the balance instead of trying to explore different options is not gonna get u anywhere.
yea some noname bw progamer who became known in early stage of sc2 complains about balance...big deal. sorry but millions of players dont have all day to sit there and explore different ways to get past obvious imbalances. newsflash, lots of progamers have spoken out about imbalances. you seem to have some sort of anger towards the one who did it first for some reason.
exactly...I, for one don't have all day to sit in front of my comp to find new ways to play this game.
and I don't understand this "obvious" imbalances you mention here...when the guy who cried about it first is in the GSL finals after beating countless terrans.
I have no answer for you if you say "he has superior micro and mechanics than the other contestants" to ignore so called 'obvious' imbalances u mention.
I might be just ignorant to say "wait until flah/jaedong to figure out the ways to play" or something to that extent but i just think there are too many people QQing about the balance rather than playing with their precious time. If there is obvious imbalances, it will get fixed by the company that made this game. It's not end of the day because it takes them a few months to correct the problems.
P.S. i don't have anger toward Cool...although i want him to lose in the final, so the Fire Bears can get some nerfs.
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On October 01 2010 09:27 Raiden X wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2010 09:05 Wargizmo wrote:
There's a huge myth out there that Blizzard have perfectly balanced Broodwar
Yet, Broodwar, when played on the original Blizzard ladder maps, is not particularly balanced.
The actual balancing of the game is done almost 100% by the mapmakers and has been since 2001.
Blizzard Maps suck and always will suck. ICCUP Starcraft 2 FTW
Exactly, you could even argue that given the right maps SC2 is perfectly balanced right now.
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Brood wars main balancing feature was based off new strategies being made and better players.
who remembers when the 5 hatch hydra came into play? that helped zerg significantly.
as starcraft II develops we can expect new strategies and new patches to balance the game.
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On October 01 2010 07:47 maliceee wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2010 07:46 Manifesto7 wrote:On October 01 2010 07:41 Ndugu wrote:
It is perfectly reasonable that SCII isn't flawlessly balanced yet. On October 01 2010 07:41 lindn wrote:
soooo... you're saying that sc2 should be perfectly balanced in about 2 years from now? Did you guys read the same OP I did? He is simply saying that the statement "BW took a long time to patch" isn't supported by the patch notes. what is a long time then? two a half years seems longgggg to me
Hello? Are you actually reading the posts? Not supported by the patch notes, as in, it did not take very many patches.
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While this is good and everything what I've been wanting to look for is a patchlog for not BW but the original game before BW. If someone has a link for such please link as that might be a better way to compare the two. We might find out that the BW patches end up be more closely mirrored by HOTS patch changes.
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I still dont like the idea of paying 150+ dollars for the same title ..
i dont care if it has 10 expansion as long as its not EXPENSIVE ..
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EPT
