|
On October 01 2010 07:46 Raiden X wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2010 07:43 csfield wrote:
It's well-established that BW is only balanced through a miracle (and excellent map-makers), and not through Blizzard's foresight or understanding.
They had little to no idea how strategy would evolve. SC2 on the other hand with its Crappy hard counter system will take way more time to balance. As SCBW was more flexible with its units.
Hard counter system? have you played more than 5 games of SC2?
I think you forgot get something: a clue.
SC2 countering system is no different from BW. There will be unit compositions that work better against other unit composition that is like basic RTS -_-
|
On October 01 2010 07:41 Ndugu wrote:
What are you on about? You outright contradict yourself.
Starcraft was never balanced.
How long did it take for Brood War to get released? How long after that did balance patches come out? 2 and a half years as you said, and then there were still a few patches.
It is perfectly reasonable that SCII isn't flawlessly balanced yet.
The main problem is that the changes are so incredibly tentative (as compared to the relatively major SC1 patches) that it'll take forever for them to make it balanced at the current rate. If Blizzard could develop the balls to make many changes across the board, then we could see some real change in the matchups, and balance would go much faster. As-is, I'm expecting HotS to offer about as much content as a single SC1 patch. That's not good news for the pro scene, considering the current state of Zerg and Terran.
|
On October 01 2010 07:45 .risingdragoon wrote:
Well, you have to remember that The Blizzard that made SC and BW is a different Blizzard. Most of those guys have gone and started new companies, like ArenaNet.
Another common, unsubstantiated claim
|
U cant expect blizz to do anything fast =X
|
One big thing is that Brood War is the expansion to Starcraft. With HoTS coming out, and then the Toss expansion after that, you can't compare BW patching to WoL.
|
A few of the patches here change most of the units in the game. By comparison, SC2's patches change almost nothing (last patch altered 5 or so units?).
|
Brood War being as good as it is like the other guy said was a total fluke.
Blizzard had no idea how well it would do and yes, it takes a long process that could drag on forever with each new variable you throw into the mix. There's a good reason you don't see 4 races in SC2.
There are a ridiculous amount of problems with SC2 as it stands. I think if they paid more attention to the Korean Pro Gaming scene they could have learned several ways to improve the game more, but they didn't. They screwed up on a lot of basic principles including soft counters, unit viability and map making.
|
On October 01 2010 07:52 hugman wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2010 07:45 .risingdragoon wrote:
Well, you have to remember that The Blizzard that made SC and BW is a different Blizzard. Most of those guys have gone and started new companies, like ArenaNet. Another common, unsubstantiated claim
I think yours is the unsubstantiated claim.
|
On October 01 2010 07:51 Seide wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2010 07:46 Raiden X wrote:On October 01 2010 07:43 csfield wrote:
It's well-established that BW is only balanced through a miracle (and excellent map-makers), and not through Blizzard's foresight or understanding.
They had little to no idea how strategy would evolve. SC2 on the other hand with its Crappy hard counter system will take way more time to balance. As SCBW was more flexible with its units. Hard counter system? have you played more than 5 games of SC2? I think you forgot get something: a clue. SC2 countering system is no different from BW. There will be unit compositions that work better against other unit composition that is like basic RTS -_-
Untrue, in brood war, counters could often be overcome by micro or positioning. SC2, not as much so - you always will have to switch to a new unit/composition.
|
On October 01 2010 07:46 Raiden X wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2010 07:43 csfield wrote:
It's well-established that BW is only balanced through a miracle (and excellent map-makers), and not through Blizzard's foresight or understanding.
They had little to no idea how strategy would evolve. And the ingenuity of players. It wasn't until Boxer that people actually took Terran seriously. Or After that July to even out TvZ. BW went though countless stages of innovation. SC2 on the other hand with its Crappy hard counter system will take way more time to balance. As SCBW was more flexible with its units.
The bonus damage counter system is stupid.
Strategy should be more than rock/paper/scissors.
|
On October 01 2010 07:53 Weasel- wrote:
A few of the patches here change most of the units in the game. By comparison, SC2's patches change almost nothing (last patch altered 5 or so units?).
And altered them minutely, at that. The BW patches made an IMPACT. What's the impact of the last patch? From the GSL games I've seen, almost nothing shorter of weaker two gate pressure.
|
On October 01 2010 07:53 noD wrote:
U cant expect blizz to do anything fast =X
This is probably why most of the games they released have been major hits. Because they take their time and dont pull Tabula Rasas.
|
So your point is that they ONLY took 2 and a half years to balance the game?
|
There is no possible comparission between BW and SC2... they are 2 different games...
why?
because of the mechanics? no
because of the races? no
because the community around SC2 at the release compared to the BW community at the release it's completly DIFFERENT. The SC2 community have a HUGE background and knowledge from BW. Things should be faster now compared to Vanilla or BW imo.
|
On October 01 2010 07:55 Pokebunny wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2010 07:51 Seide wrote:On October 01 2010 07:46 Raiden X wrote:On October 01 2010 07:43 csfield wrote:
It's well-established that BW is only balanced through a miracle (and excellent map-makers), and not through Blizzard's foresight or understanding.
They had little to no idea how strategy would evolve. SC2 on the other hand with its Crappy hard counter system will take way more time to balance. As SCBW was more flexible with its units. Hard counter system? have you played more than 5 games of SC2? I think you forgot get something: a clue. SC2 countering system is no different from BW. There will be unit compositions that work better against other unit composition that is like basic RTS -_- Untrue, in brood war, counters could often be overcome by micro or positioning. SC2, not as much so - you always will have to switch to a new unit/composition.
Correct, or slight change in numbers can turn the tides.
Tester already mentioned this.
|
On October 01 2010 07:38 Perscienter wrote:
Many of these statements imply that there were tons of balance changes
+ Show Spoiler + TERRAN:
Valkyrie:
Damage increase to 6 per missile.
Acceleration and velocity increased slightly.
Build time decreased.
Science Facility:
Build time decreased.
Irradiate research cost increased to 200 minerals, 200 gas.
Yamato Cannon research cost decreased to 100 minerals, 100 gas.
Missile Turret:
Decreased cost to 75 minerals.
Factory:
Charon Missile Booster research cost decreased to 100 minerals, 100 gas.
Dropship:
Increased speed.
Goliath:
Increased ground attack range.
Battle Cruiser:
Build time decreased.
Supply cost decreased to 6.
PROTOSS:
Dragoon:
Build time increased.
Scout:
Decreased cost to 275 minerals, 125 gas.
Carrier:
Supply cost decreased to 6.
Templar:
Psi Storm Damage reduced.
Corsair:
Disruption Web spell duration decreased.
Zealot:
Shields decreased to 60 and hit points increased to 100.
ZERG:
Queen:
Decreased build cost to 100 minerals, 100 gas.
Ultralisk:
Supply cost decreased to 4.
Queen's Nest:
Spawn Broodling cost decreased to 100 minerals, 100 gas.
Hydralisk Den:
Lurker Aspect cost increased to 200 minerals, 200 gas.
Hydralisk speed upgrade cost increased to 150 minerals, 150 gas.
Spawning Pool:
Increased build cost to 200 minerals
Sunken Colony:
Building armor increased to 2.
Hit points decreased to 300.
Patch 1.07
Patch 1.06
Exploits
Fixed the Nydus Canal cancellation bug that allowed creating a mobile exit.
Patch 1.05
Reduced Academy cost to 150 minerals.
Reduced Science Facility cost to 100 minerals, 150 gas.
Reduced Spider Mine research cost to 100 minerals, 100 gas.
Reduced the cooldown for units on unload from a transport.
Hallucinated devourers no longer leave acid spores on targeted units.
Spider mines are now properly affected by disruption web.
Patch 1.04
Changes:
StarCraft compatibility with Brood War implemented.
You can select all burrowed units of the same type or cloaked units of the same type by using the Ctrl+select method or by double clicking.
If you have multiple Carriers or Reavers selected you can build Interceptors and Scarabs for all of them at the same time.
Cooldown times of units being dropped out of transports corrected.
Stim Pack causing Firebats to fire slowly corrected.
Zergling adrenal gland upgrade effects corrected.
Balance Changes:
Terran:
Wraith:
Decreased cost to 150 minerals, 100 gas.
Increased cooldown rate of ground attack.
Increased air to air damage to 20.
Dropship:
Increased speed slightly.
Science Vessel:
Decreased cost to 100 minerals, 225 gas.
Increased acceleration
Increased overall damage of Irradiate
Increased sight radius
Battlecruiser:
Increased starting armor to 3
Increased Yamato Cannon damage to 260
Goliath:
Increased ground damage to 12
Increased effectiveness of weapon upgrade on ground to air weapon system
Nuke:
Nuclear Missiles build faster
ComSat:
Decreased energy cost to 50
Starport:
Decrease cost of Starport to 150 minerals, 100 gas
Decreased add-on cost of Control Tower to 50 minerals, 50 gas
Decreased build time
Protoss:
Archon:
Increased acceleration
Dragoon:
Decreased cost to 125 minerals, 50 gas
Decreased build time
Increased range upgrade (Singularity Charge) by 1
High Templar:
Decreased energy cost of Hallucination to 100
Scout:
Increased Air to Air damage to 28
Decreased starting armor to 0
Increased shields to 100 and hit points to 150
Increased cooldown rate of ground attack
Carrier:
Changed build cost to 350 minerals, and 250 gas
Increased hit points of Carrier to 300
Increased starting armor of Carrier to 4
Increased Interceptor shields and hitpoints to 40
Increased Interceptor damage to 6
Decreased Interceptor cost to 25
Arbiter:
Decreased cost to 100 minerals, 350 gas
Shuttle:
Increased build time
Reaver:
Increased build time
Templar Archives:
Increased cost to 150 minerals, 200 gas.
Citadel of Adun:
Decreased cost to 150 minerals, 100 gas.
Stargate:
Decreased cost to 150 minerals, 150 gas
Decreased build time
Robotics Facility:
Increased build time
Robotics Support Bay:
Increased cost to 150 minerals, 100 gas
Observatory:
Decreased cost to 50 minerals, 100 gas
Forge:
Decreased cost to 150 minerals
Photon Cannon:
Decreased build time
Fleet Beacon:
Decreased cost of "Increased Carrier capacity" upgrade to 100 minerals, 100 gas
Decreased research time of "Increased Carrier capacity" upgrade
Shield Battery:
Increased starting energy to 100
Increased effective range of “Recharge Shields” ability
Zerg:
Overlord:
Increased speed bonus for "Pneumatized Carapace" upgrade
Decreased research time of "Ventral Sacs" upgrade
Scourge:
Increase hit points to 25
Hydralisk:
Increased build time
Queen:
Increased range of Broodling by 1
Increase energy cost of Parasite to 75
Decreased Parasite casting range to 12
Defiler:
Increased cost to 50 minerals, 150 gas
Hatchery:
Decreased the speed at which the Hatchery/Lair/Hive spawn new larva
Decreased build cost to 300 minerals
Increased build time
Sunken Colony:
Decreased cost of Sunken Colony upgrade to 50 minerals
Decreased build time
Increased attack rate of Sunken Colony
Increased damage to 40
Spore Colony:
Decreased build time
Changed damage type to normal
Greater Spire:
Increased build time
Patch 1.03
Patch 1.02
Changes:
Flying units no longer receive 'cover' from terrain features.
Fixed the bug when cancelling a guardian in high latency games that killed the Mutalisk and gave multiple refunds.
Increased the cost of a Zerg Hatchery from 300 to 350 minerals.
Changed the damage type of the Photon Cannon weapon system from explosion to normal.
Fixed a bug that could potentially, in high latency games, over-charge zerg players when morphing larva into units.
Patch 1.01
Changes:
Enemy Science Vessels no longer continually unmask after irradiating units.
and that it would have been a hard process to balance the game.
It took 2 and a half years to release the final balance patch for Brood War
I'm sorry, I don't understand your argument.
|
The biggest factor is that the state of computer gaming in general is vastly different from BW. The people of us that are 21+ remember the days when patches were released on PcGamer mags and we had to beg our parents to buy them because our 56k modems would spend all day otherwise.
Now days we live in a culture of patches, look at the youtube and blogger scene surrounding WoW, and other games.
In two years time or so, we will see the release of the final expansion, and shortly after the inevitable balance patch that will hopefully set SC2 up for a long competitive history, but the number of patches between here and there will mostly depend upon the amount of of time Blizzard is willing to put into it while we wait for more expos.
|
I'm confused.
You claim blizzard is being slow w/ patching, that patching Starcraft was easy so, therefore, SC2 should be easy.
However, you present the fact that the major changes happened 6months+ after the game release, including the 4/18/01 Starcraft patch (3 years after release). I played Starcraft and Starcraft:Broodwar hardcore from the day they came out. 1.04 and 1.08 changed gigantic aspects of the game that deeply affected the way people played the game. They were awesome!
The length of time it took to balance Starcraft: Broodwar is EXACTLY why I'm not concerned about SC2 at this point. Starcraft 2 has been out for 2 months. I wouldn't be surprised if a gigantic balance patch came out 6-8 months after release.
|
On October 01 2010 07:48 muzzy wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2010 07:42 blabber wrote:
isn't it the general consensus that Orc (specifically Blademaster) is imbalanced? vs Undead, yes. This is a problem not with the unit, but the random drops in WC3. You can stack BM so much that they really become too powerful. Kind of a inherent problem when you add any random factor to competitive game, which is why they got rid of all randomness in SC2. Even the random hit % when firing uphill in BW was not a good idea.
i disagree, random firing % uphill means it is a tactical move to take a hold of the ramp. There should be a disadvantage when trying to atk upwards. It is a common real war strategy, whoever has the high ground usually has the upper hand.
|
Oh boy another thread to cry about game balance that won't amount to anything.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
