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On September 24 2010 02:33 Deadlyfish wrote:
Everyone is in such a hurry to balance the game perfectly, these things take time.
Broodwar was also super imbalanced in the beginning, every single game is. You cant just expect a 2 month old game to be perfectly balanced. But blizzard is moving in the right direction. Slowly maybe, but still.
Or do people honestly think that zerg is not going to change in the next 10 years? or even ½ a year?
Just stop complaining, play whichever race you want and enjoy the game, the game will be balanced eventually. Maybe in a few months Zerg will dominate.
Every single online game i've ever played in my entire life has been unbalanced for the first few months until they sorted it out.
Name a game that hasnt been unbalanced for the first few months.
Several things make this game so much more important to balance out fast.
1. It's already a game being played professionally (and it's Bliz's vision to be), this wasn't the case immediately and obviously not any vision from Bliz at the time of the creation/early stages of BW.
2. Let's go back, i imagine BW was mostly created for singleplay or friendly lan play at the early stages, balance would be nice, but not very necessary early on.
3. Bliz back then was nothing compared to what it is now, the monetary and human resources for balance issues are probably a hundred times bigger this time around. And their help from the pro-scene has to be a huge help aswell.
Also, small things like this game being not very different from classic helps out with the balancing obviously.
I don't think it has to take 2 years to balance this thing, Bliz just have to work to make this right.
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On September 24 2010 06:47 mahnini wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2010 06:41 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:On September 24 2010 06:38 mahnini wrote:On September 24 2010 06:34 OreoBoi wrote:
If blizzard is going to continue to promote SC2 as an E-sport right now, they need to patch it. The biggest problem right now is that there are many many tournaments and a lot of prizes to be won. Maybe zerg is the best if someone plays for a year, but this player will not win anything in this year. The thing with starcraft and brood war is that it took a while for the E-sports aspect to arrive, so people had a long time to practice all the races before professionally playing.
The learning curve for terran and protoss is easier than zerg, there's no arguing that. There's no incentive to learn to play zerg when you can win lots of money with terran or protoss right now. If everything shuts down for a few years, people will play zerg because they think it's fun and new strategies will form. However, if things remain as they are, top level zerg players will most likely switch to the other races to win. i never understood the whole "patch it now!" mentality. to me that makes very little sense if we think about the game long term. if we mis-patch something now and have to re-patch something later what does that say about the people who won during the mis-patch? is blizzard going to babysit the game with patches every time a race has a hard time? understandably, it may be frustrating now but it's best to take it slow with long-term stability in mind. What if we patch and realize the game was, in fact, crap before? What does it say about the people who won? Works both ways -.- that's true but it but being patient avoids having to have blizzard intervene frequently and possibly introducing the flavor of the month so to speak with patches. what if they were to nerf marauders and 3 months from now a terran has the reverse problem tvz and instead of a patient, methodical approach they patched it shortly after?
Then we shrug and hope Blizzard is capable of understanding the distortions it has caused from each fotm patch and able to patch properly over time.
If there is time then I personally wouldn't really care, not like I am going to lack games to play or things to read in the time I might've spent playing SC2. However, if I am going to want to pay for GOM or any future paid tournaments, I should hope that I am actually going to see all that the game can offer, and not just 2/3 of the races. That is the real constraint at hand - how much we'd care for an esport when the game in question is apparently imbalanced.
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On September 24 2010 06:46 Ecael wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2010 06:38 mahnini wrote:On September 24 2010 06:34 OreoBoi wrote:
If blizzard is going to continue to promote SC2 as an E-sport right now, they need to patch it. The biggest problem right now is that there are many many tournaments and a lot of prizes to be won. Maybe zerg is the best if someone plays for a year, but this player will not win anything in this year. The thing with starcraft and brood war is that it took a while for the E-sports aspect to arrive, so people had a long time to practice all the races before professionally playing.
The learning curve for terran and protoss is easier than zerg, there's no arguing that. There's no incentive to learn to play zerg when you can win lots of money with terran or protoss right now. If everything shuts down for a few years, people will play zerg because they think it's fun and new strategies will form. However, if things remain as they are, top level zerg players will most likely switch to the other races to win. i never understood the whole "patch it now!" mentality. to me that makes very little sense if we think about the game long term. if we mis-patch something now and have to re-patch something later what does that say about the people who won during the mis-patch? is blizzard going to babysit the game with patches every time a race has a hard time? understandably, it may be frustrating now but it's best to take it slow with long-term stability in mind. But mahnini, that assumes that Blizzard in fact has the time to slowly patch things. Should this have been SC1 again and there was nothing on the line for Blizzard other than the copies it can sell, I'd agree. However, we are in an age where that immediately upon the release of the game, there are large competitive events starting, an emerging market that's highly dependent on game balance. Should Blizzard only care about the sales of SC2 and its expansions, then yes, taking its time is certainly an option. However, it just isn't entertaining to see a game containing supposedly 3 races and only 2 used in the tournaments. Most of us figured that the next expansion will probably make zerg a lot more polished, but that's 18 months away at best. How many of us will care about SC2 still if the game isn't entertaining to watch or play (for the what, 20ish% zerg players out there?) Honestly it'll probably be healthier for e-sports as an industry for Blizzard to apply such bandaid fixes than to be cautious and not try to overreact to things.
this is a good point and i am not exclusively advocating being slow about patching. i think blizzard should try and fix imbalances as quickly as possible but should still be allowed to take their time and implement the correct action rather than throw out balance patches that only address issues in the short term.
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On September 24 2010 06:55 Ecael wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2010 06:47 mahnini wrote:On September 24 2010 06:41 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:On September 24 2010 06:38 mahnini wrote:On September 24 2010 06:34 OreoBoi wrote:
If blizzard is going to continue to promote SC2 as an E-sport right now, they need to patch it. The biggest problem right now is that there are many many tournaments and a lot of prizes to be won. Maybe zerg is the best if someone plays for a year, but this player will not win anything in this year. The thing with starcraft and brood war is that it took a while for the E-sports aspect to arrive, so people had a long time to practice all the races before professionally playing.
The learning curve for terran and protoss is easier than zerg, there's no arguing that. There's no incentive to learn to play zerg when you can win lots of money with terran or protoss right now. If everything shuts down for a few years, people will play zerg because they think it's fun and new strategies will form. However, if things remain as they are, top level zerg players will most likely switch to the other races to win. i never understood the whole "patch it now!" mentality. to me that makes very little sense if we think about the game long term. if we mis-patch something now and have to re-patch something later what does that say about the people who won during the mis-patch? is blizzard going to babysit the game with patches every time a race has a hard time? understandably, it may be frustrating now but it's best to take it slow with long-term stability in mind. What if we patch and realize the game was, in fact, crap before? What does it say about the people who won? Works both ways -.- that's true but it but being patient avoids having to have blizzard intervene frequently and possibly introducing the flavor of the month so to speak with patches. what if they were to nerf marauders and 3 months from now a terran has the reverse problem tvz and instead of a patient, methodical approach they patched it shortly after? Then we shrug and hope Blizzard is capable of understanding the distortions it has caused from each fotm patch and able to patch properly over time. If there is time then I personally wouldn't really care, not like I am going to lack games to play or things to read in the time I might've spent playing SC2. However, if I am going to want to pay for GOM or any future paid tournaments, I should hope that I am actually going to see all that the game can offer, and not just 2/3 of the races. That is the real constraint at hand - how much we'd care for an esport when the game in question is apparently imbalanced.
thats one of my biggest concerns atm too. its just like protoss and terrans can play normal soccer while zerg has to scoot over the place with wheelchairs
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Here's my two cents. Stop nerfing T and P and instead buff Z.
Give fungal growth to corruptors and get rid of corruption. Keep the name fungal growth or change it to corruption. Whatever.
Give infestors dark swarm.
Remove the timer on neural parasite.
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On September 24 2010 06:54 cnas wrote:
Several things make this game so much more important to balance out fast.
1. It's already a game being played professionally (and it's Bliz's vision to be), this wasn't the case immediately and obviously not any vision from Bliz at the time of the creation/early stages of BW.
2. Let's go back, i imagine BW was mostly created for singleplay or friendly lan play at the early stages, balance would be nice, but not very necessary early on.
3. Bliz back then was nothing compared to what it is now, the monetary and human resources for balance issues are probably a hundred times bigger this time around. And their help from the pro-scene has to be a huge help aswell.
Also, small things like this game being not very different from classic helps out with the balancing obviously.
I don't think it has to take 2 years to balance this thing, Bliz just have to work to make this right.
Very good points!
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On September 24 2010 06:52 TitleRug wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2010 06:50 wrgrbl wrote:On September 24 2010 06:47 mahnini wrote:
that's true but it but being patient avoids having to have blizzard intervene frequently and possibly introducing the flavor of the month so to speak with patches. what if they were to nerf marauders and 3 months from now a terran has the reverse problem tvz and instead of a patient, methodical approach they patched it shortly after? Yeah a 100% chance of zerg being fucked is better than an X% chance of Terran being fucked. Obviously. Wow a lot of people are angry at you mahnini. I actually agree with you. It would be really strange to have a new strategy every 2 months due to a patch.
I think more people would agree with the patch slowly mentality if the game were more close to balanced right now, but it's not. If you can stare at a replay, watch the terran player fuck up over and over while the zerg player plays significantly better but still loses it's quite funny.
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On September 24 2010 03:51 Raevin wrote:
Patch did not adress any of the problems at all, this whole "lets be patient and take it easy" is how Warcraft 3 got "balanced"
Guess what
It never did become balanced
You have to target the core issues and attempt to data mine them for solutions, nerfing Battle Cruisers is not going to do much of anything for ZvT.
I have played some disgustingly imbalanced games, like MvC2, Halo 2, MW2 etc and SC2 and the Terran race is right up there, its not some minor issue where you twink around build time for 2 seconds and its all good and great, the whole race is vastly better than Terrans from BW, yet Zerg are vastly WORSE than Zerg from BW.
One race became alot better, the other became alot ******er
I got a warning ofr saying this.
I have no idea why though.
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Baa?21248 Posts
On September 24 2010 06:57 mahnini wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2010 06:46 Ecael wrote:On September 24 2010 06:38 mahnini wrote:On September 24 2010 06:34 OreoBoi wrote:
If blizzard is going to continue to promote SC2 as an E-sport right now, they need to patch it. The biggest problem right now is that there are many many tournaments and a lot of prizes to be won. Maybe zerg is the best if someone plays for a year, but this player will not win anything in this year. The thing with starcraft and brood war is that it took a while for the E-sports aspect to arrive, so people had a long time to practice all the races before professionally playing.
The learning curve for terran and protoss is easier than zerg, there's no arguing that. There's no incentive to learn to play zerg when you can win lots of money with terran or protoss right now. If everything shuts down for a few years, people will play zerg because they think it's fun and new strategies will form. However, if things remain as they are, top level zerg players will most likely switch to the other races to win. i never understood the whole "patch it now!" mentality. to me that makes very little sense if we think about the game long term. if we mis-patch something now and have to re-patch something later what does that say about the people who won during the mis-patch? is blizzard going to babysit the game with patches every time a race has a hard time? understandably, it may be frustrating now but it's best to take it slow with long-term stability in mind. But mahnini, that assumes that Blizzard in fact has the time to slowly patch things. Should this have been SC1 again and there was nothing on the line for Blizzard other than the copies it can sell, I'd agree. However, we are in an age where that immediately upon the release of the game, there are large competitive events starting, an emerging market that's highly dependent on game balance. Should Blizzard only care about the sales of SC2 and its expansions, then yes, taking its time is certainly an option. However, it just isn't entertaining to see a game containing supposedly 3 races and only 2 used in the tournaments. Most of us figured that the next expansion will probably make zerg a lot more polished, but that's 18 months away at best. How many of us will care about SC2 still if the game isn't entertaining to watch or play (for the what, 20ish% zerg players out there?) Honestly it'll probably be healthier for e-sports as an industry for Blizzard to apply such bandaid fixes than to be cautious and not try to overreact to things. this is a good point and i am not exclusively advocating being slow about patching. i think blizzard should try and fix imbalances as quickly as possible but should still be allowed to take their time and implement the correct action rather than throw out balance patches that only address issues in the short term.
Well I think this is where a lot of frustration comes from, being that Zergs, myself included, feel the patches aren't coming fast enough.
The scenario that you described, I wouldn't mind if Terrans got a patch. If Terrans were pulling <20% in the top 16 of almost every tournament, with no wins, I would acknowledge that a patch needs to come out fast. If Zergs had like, 2/8 in the Ro8 of stuff, I might be more sympathetic of the "wait and see" approach, but I think right now is when the situation qualifies as dire enough.
Cast in point: Situation report 1.1 was released like a month ago, took a month to release, with no real changes. What was Blizzard doing for a month? Stuff like that is ridiculous to someone who's playing a race that needs a hotfix right this instant. If anyone denies that Zerg is underpowered now, that'd be ridiculous. I'd be willing to admit Terran is underpowered under these same circumstances...
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Here's my two cents. Stop nerfing T and P and instead buff Z.
Give fungal growth to corruptors and get rid of corruption. Keep the name fungal growth or change it to corruption. Whatever.
Give infestors dark swarm.
Remove the timer on neural parasite.
I don't think we're going to see any outright "new" abilities (even if they're just ones from BW) added to the game until the expansion.
Any balancing is going to need to take place within the framework of the units and abilities that already exist.
Personally, I think that if creep tumors were twice as effective as they currently are at spreading creep (both in terms of speed of spreading and amount of creep), and Overlords were significantly faster/had farther vision, it would do a tremendous amount to buff Zerg without changing the way the race fundamentally plays. They'd still be reactive, and they'd still rely on creep. But reacting would be much easier because scouting would be easier, and relying on creep wouldn't such a bitch because spreading it would be much easier.
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All of the ZvX games I watch always have this sense of dread associated. I'll be watching and I feel like Zerg is dominating and is in a clear advantageous situation, but I can't just turn the game off and know the Zerg is going to win...
Because at any moment Terran and Toss can push out with one doom push that outright kills the Zerg. Doesn't matter if the Zerg is 2-3 bases ahead if well controlled and positioned 200/200 army from Terran or Toss can fight a 200/200 Zerg army and lose about 30 pop worth of units.
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On September 24 2010 07:02 awesomoecalypse wrote:Show nested quote +Here's my two cents. Stop nerfing T and P and instead buff Z.
Give fungal growth to corruptors and get rid of corruption. Keep the name fungal growth or change it to corruption. Whatever.
Give infestors dark swarm.
Remove the timer on neural parasite. I don't think we're going to see any outright "new" abilities (even if they're just ones from BW) added to the game until the expansion. Any balancing is going to need to take place within the framework of the units and abilities that already exist. Personally, I think that if creep tumors were twice as effective as they currently are at spreading creep (both in terms of speed of spreading and amount of creep), and Overlords were significantly faster/had farther vision, it would do a tremendous amount to buff Zerg without changing the way the race fundamentally plays. They'd still be reactive, and they'd still rely on creep. But reacting would be much easier because scouting would be easier, and relying on creep wouldn't such a bitch because spreading it would be much easier.
so true. i don't think new abilities or units are needed at this point, just tweak the stats a little bit and it would be enough.
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nazgul pretty much right in what he say , funny and sad at the same time how the TL forum have turn .
honestly all the reply here are from bad players ( hey im not good too ) , you guy are bad , accept that and maybe we can talk about balance later ?
because right now every zerg think they are some isane jaedong or flash , they do everything perfect and the only reason they ever loss = because of imbalance !
seriously most people here posting and probably 99 % people playing the game are not lossing because of imbalance , because you probably dont event know what imbalanced . you loss game because you are BAD at starcraft ! sorry but accept that , accept that you suck at RTS plz , if you dont do that we are going nowhere.
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The beta testing was useless.
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On September 24 2010 02:35 JinDesu wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2010 02:31 PrinceXizor wrote:
Cool doesn't know how to use infestors to stop dropships? Probably pretty hard to get your infestors into multiple positions and then expect to fg them at the right time - especially if the terran is that good
I know this will make me sound ignorant, but wasn't it the same way with defilers in brood war. I mean most people dont use Nydus Worms this way but I think with nydus you could actualy have infestors anywhere on the map at the right time. The nydus system is improved and just a little bit more expensive.
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I'm pretty sure blizzard didn't balance SC1 based solely off of online play. If you go back and take a look at SC1, read the numbers, etc. they just make sense. The balance between dragoon/zealot and tank/vulture, for example, is simple, elegant, and functional. In SC2, you can't really say that zealot/stalker and marine/marauder are balanced, because obviously both races have other units that they need to add to the mix. When you get down to the way blizzard has been trying to make the game work, it just screams "complicated", when in reality, a good strategy game is built on having fundamental units that can be added to in order to shape the direction of the game.
If blizzard was able to make sure all sets of low-tier units had perfect balance without considering external units, it would be much easier to add to that and maintain balance. As it stands now, the answer to low-tier units is to tech, tech, tech in many cases. It doesn't mean that the game will always be imbalanced, it just means that overall, it's a poor design choice that's causing way more headaches than it should. I can't claim to know what went in to SC2, but somewhere along the line, the concept of "if you buy a unit, it should do stuff that makes sense when you consider its cost" got lost amidst all the additions of units, complex abilities and timing options. IMO the game won't ever be what we want it to be until you can answer "what are this unit's strengths and weaknesses" without saying the name of another unit.
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Russian Federation82 Posts
the only really good Zergs are Idra and Ret (Ret very safe guy, goes to gym etc)
Cool is a joker but i think his views should be taken with a shred of calm
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On September 24 2010 07:04 Escape wrote:
just tweak the stats a little bit and it would be enough.
The problem is that this isn't enough. There really is a huge underlying problem with Zerg's infrastructure, and it's nothing that a damage buff here and there can fix. The way the race works right now is horribly flawed.
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On September 24 2010 07:02 awesomoecalypse wrote:Show nested quote +Here's my two cents. Stop nerfing T and P and instead buff Z.
Give fungal growth to corruptors and get rid of corruption. Keep the name fungal growth or change it to corruption. Whatever.
Give infestors dark swarm.
Remove the timer on neural parasite. I don't think we're going to see any outright "new" abilities (even if they're just ones from BW) added to the game until the expansion. Any balancing is going to need to take place within the framework of the units and abilities that already exist. Personally, I think that if creep tumors were twice as effective as they currently are at spreading creep (both in terms of speed of spreading and amount of creep), and Overlords were significantly faster/had farther vision, it would do a tremendous amount to buff Zerg without changing the way the race fundamentally plays. They'd still be reactive, and they'd still rely on creep. But reacting would be much easier because scouting would be easier, and relying on creep wouldn't such a bitch because spreading it would be much easier.
You're probably right, sadly. In the beta they were willing to remove and replace abilities, but after retail I doubt they'll do anything that drastic. Does seem ridiculous that Terran got dark swarm and what did Zerg get in return? A weak plague combined with ensnare?
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On September 24 2010 07:01 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2010 06:57 mahnini wrote:On September 24 2010 06:46 Ecael wrote:On September 24 2010 06:38 mahnini wrote:On September 24 2010 06:34 OreoBoi wrote:
If blizzard is going to continue to promote SC2 as an E-sport right now, they need to patch it. The biggest problem right now is that there are many many tournaments and a lot of prizes to be won. Maybe zerg is the best if someone plays for a year, but this player will not win anything in this year. The thing with starcraft and brood war is that it took a while for the E-sports aspect to arrive, so people had a long time to practice all the races before professionally playing.
The learning curve for terran and protoss is easier than zerg, there's no arguing that. There's no incentive to learn to play zerg when you can win lots of money with terran or protoss right now. If everything shuts down for a few years, people will play zerg because they think it's fun and new strategies will form. However, if things remain as they are, top level zerg players will most likely switch to the other races to win. i never understood the whole "patch it now!" mentality. to me that makes very little sense if we think about the game long term. if we mis-patch something now and have to re-patch something later what does that say about the people who won during the mis-patch? is blizzard going to babysit the game with patches every time a race has a hard time? understandably, it may be frustrating now but it's best to take it slow with long-term stability in mind. But mahnini, that assumes that Blizzard in fact has the time to slowly patch things. Should this have been SC1 again and there was nothing on the line for Blizzard other than the copies it can sell, I'd agree. However, we are in an age where that immediately upon the release of the game, there are large competitive events starting, an emerging market that's highly dependent on game balance. Should Blizzard only care about the sales of SC2 and its expansions, then yes, taking its time is certainly an option. However, it just isn't entertaining to see a game containing supposedly 3 races and only 2 used in the tournaments. Most of us figured that the next expansion will probably make zerg a lot more polished, but that's 18 months away at best. How many of us will care about SC2 still if the game isn't entertaining to watch or play (for the what, 20ish% zerg players out there?) Honestly it'll probably be healthier for e-sports as an industry for Blizzard to apply such bandaid fixes than to be cautious and not try to overreact to things. this is a good point and i am not exclusively advocating being slow about patching. i think blizzard should try and fix imbalances as quickly as possible but should still be allowed to take their time and implement the correct action rather than throw out balance patches that only address issues in the short term. Well I think this is where a lot of frustration comes from, being that Zergs, myself included, feel the patches aren't coming fast enough. The scenario that you described, I wouldn't mind if Terrans got a patch. If Terrans were pulling <20% in the top 16 of almost every tournament, with no wins, I would acknowledge that a patch needs to come out fast. If Zergs had like, 2/8 in the Ro8 of stuff, I might be more sympathetic of the "wait and see" approach, but I think right now is when the situation qualifies as dire enough. Cast in point: Situation report 1.1 was released like a month ago, took a month to release, with no real changes. What was Blizzard doing for a month? Stuff like that is ridiculous to someone who's playing a race that needs a hotfix right this instant. If anyone denies that Zerg is underpowered now, that'd be ridiculous. I'd be willing to admit Terran is underpowered under these same circumstances...
well the scenario i described is far more one dimensional than the current situation we have in zvt where a lot of people say there are underlying fundamental things wrong with how zerg works in the matchup. you can see this in balance discussion threads, people know something is wrong but know one knows exactly what. perhaps blizzard was too hasty with their decision to come out of beta but they can't really introduce constant and drastic changes after release to try and balance it.
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