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On September 24 2010 06:26 DamnCats wrote:
How can people argue that an imbalance exists only at "very high level professional play"? Simply put, at lower level T and P do not utilize their races optimally, like their real life depends on it, like there are hundreds of thousands bucks on the line (counting also future events). But when they do, things get way too ugly.
I used to bitch about BW being too "solved" and the same over and over again, but heeey how much worse SC2 begins to look now. For me the huge mystery about the GSL final is whether there are going to be marauder drops from both sides, or one side will be with blink stalkers.
Which, don't get me wrong, is also interesting enough, but still, so much tech variety, and a whole race even, now seem redundant.
We may come to the point, when playing zerg is kind of bm - used to humiliate and avenge on your opponent. Like dropping forward mules, and dancing.
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On September 24 2010 06:31 NoXious90 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2010 05:13 In1t4themoney wrote:
Problem with zerglings is that they dumbasslike move around the opponent instead of attacking something they could actually hit. Even 24/7 korean progamers cant micro that properly I think one of the major issues is that lings are in many cases rendered completely useless by the way units in this game clump together. Any kind of sizeable MM army groups together into an impenetrable ball-shaped formation where only the units situated on the perimeter of the ball can take damge, while those units inside the ball are free to rain down hell upon poor unsuspecting melee units like the zergling and zealot.
Its hard to put the finger on the issue... yea lings are crap, but I'm not sure they are the ke issue...
The game just needs more "Oh Shit" units and moves. Stuff that seem retardedly overpowered but cancel each-other out when skilled players of both sides use them.
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If blizzard is going to continue to promote SC2 as an E-sport right now, they need to patch it. The biggest problem right now is that there are many many tournaments and a lot of prizes to be won. Maybe zerg is the best if someone plays for a year, but this player will not win anything in this year. The thing with starcraft and brood war is that it took a while for the E-sports aspect to arrive, so people had a long time to practice all the races before professionally playing.
The learning curve for terran and protoss is easier than zerg, there's no arguing that. There's no incentive to learn to play zerg when you can win lots of money with terran or protoss right now. If everything shuts down for a few years, people will play zerg because they think it's fun and new strategies will form. However, if things remain as they are, top level zerg players will most likely switch to the other races to win.
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hey, 2months old game is imbalanced
surprise surprise
afaik sc1 was pretty much crap until BW wasn't it? (i was 7 back then, so i have no idea)
at least day9 said something in that direction in some interview
re effin' lax.
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On September 24 2010 06:29 TitleRug wrote:
One thing for the OP:
Did he say this after it was discover that ultras have that ridiculous splash damage on buildings or before?
doesnt matter, blizzard confirmed its a bug and its going to get fixed and even if the splash was intended and would stay, it wouldn't change the slightest bit of cool's frustration
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On September 24 2010 05:22 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:
Nobody still has a clue about learning curves of the races. It's hard enough to find balance in RTS but to control the learning curves of 3 different games (races) this complicated to be similar is pretty much impossible. How hard is basic control for tank/marauder, now compare it to how hard it is to control the correct counter ling/infestor. Clearly Zerg needs more time to reach its max than Terran does.
That and every Zerg out there still doesn't creep properly. You see top level Zergs not getting multiple tumors at all times in the game, not getting overlord speed. Why complain about unit strength when you aren't getting the number one upgrade for your units (creep) in the whole game. This is just puzzling.
There may or may not be balance issues, but let's start with these things. It's like Terrans forgetting concussive shells and siege mode every game they play. Creep spread is simply a lot harder to pull off than just pressing an upgrade button, but that brings us back to not knowing the learning curves of each race, which is not the same as imbalance.
Atm Zerg is clearly struggling. So we have two options:
1. Balance - and make TvZ equal for both races for now.
2. Not balance - on the hopes that the problem is not racial imbalance, but lack of time for people to master the zerg race.
Don't see any reason why option 2 should take precedence over option 1.
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On September 24 2010 06:29 okrane wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2010 06:26 XsebT wrote:On September 24 2010 06:13 iNty.sCream wrote:
i wonder how blizzard ( the company who obviously created broodwar ), can mess up stuff like this. for example the medivac thingy, why it hast to come out earlier? The current Blizzard is not the creator of Brood War. Personally, I see the two generations of Blizzard as two totally different companies. I totally feel the same. I dunno, they're just not the same ones who created games like Starcraft or Diablo 2....
This is 100% true and you can see and feel it everywhere. I wonder if there was even 1 guy working on sc2 which was already in the sc1 team. SC2 at the moment is an ok game, nothing more. If it had not the credit of over a decade of broodwar, nobody would care.
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On September 24 2010 06:32 okrane wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2010 06:30 Angelbelow wrote:On September 24 2010 06:00 Sprouter wrote:
i wonder if idra is planning on changing races too XD I believe he said that he might be worth it, financially, to switch at some point. Well, when you play the game for cash and you know that there is a probability of X% of losing the game even if doing everything right, you can't blame him, can you?
absolutely not. i would in his position. this is his living and if he feels that he has a better chance to make a better living he should.
on an emotional end, it obviously sucks. Im a zerg fan and have been since SC1. After playing placements i actually got placed into gold. few games in i was winning about 50%. I switched to terran and 15 games later I was ranked 20th in my diamond league. switch back to zerg and now i get pissed off way too often =/
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On September 24 2010 06:34 ZaaaaaM wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2010 06:29 TitleRug wrote:
One thing for the OP:
Did he say this after it was discover that ultras have that ridiculous splash damage on buildings or before? doesnt matter, blizzard confirmed its a bug and its going to get fixed and even if the splash was intended and would stay, it wouldn't change the slightest bit of cool's frustration
I'm just curious. I don't care if it doesn't matter. I just want to know when he said it.
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The terran problem IS the MARAUDER. Nerf it very hard and resolve ALL TvZ balance problems
User was warned for this post
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On September 24 2010 06:36 Perkins1752 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2010 06:29 okrane wrote:On September 24 2010 06:26 XsebT wrote:On September 24 2010 06:13 iNty.sCream wrote:
i wonder how blizzard ( the company who obviously created broodwar ), can mess up stuff like this. for example the medivac thingy, why it hast to come out earlier? The current Blizzard is not the creator of Brood War. Personally, I see the two generations of Blizzard as two totally different companies. I totally feel the same. I dunno, they're just not the same ones who created games like Starcraft or Diablo 2.... This is 100% true and you can see and feel it everywhere. I wonder if there was even 1 guy working on sc2 which was already in the sc1 team. SC2 at the moment is an ok game, nothing more. If it had not the credit of over a decade of broodwar, nobody would care.
the blizzard that made broodwar couldnt balance a game with nearly identical 2 races. Balance in BW is just a miracle.
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On September 24 2010 05:47 floor exercise wrote:
Creep is the new nydus worm I guess. The irony is that the second a zerg gets good creep spread the opponent is criticized for not killing tumors, rightfully so since killing them is about ten times easier than actually laying them.
I'll agree that playing without creep is like playing without upgrades, and I'll agree that getting upgrades is much easier to do. It's too bad it's never that simple, it's rarely in the hands of zerg where creep is allowed to progress. On short distance spawns or maps its much easier, but there's no taking the entire map with tumors that start from your nat, you have to do some queen wizardry to get any meaningful creep spread on a big map. Even more irony is that generally zerg fares better on large maps and playing against close distances makes you want to take a rusty blade to your forearms.
Degree of difficulty aside the mechanic while interesting conceptually sucks in practice and is painfully limiting
I wholeheartedly agree with this post, it's why there's really no good "Zerg" maps, just maps that aren't as good for Terran or Protoss as others. On small maps like Steppes, where you have close spawns, creeping to the enemy base is much faster and easier to do, which should work in Zerg's favor, correct? But the Zerg is such a reactive race that they can't build the necessary army composition versus their enemy if their enemy denies scouting, or once scouted, attacks before a counter can be hatched. So you have Zerg checking this map off entirely while laddering (I know I do).
Conversely, on maps like Desert Oasis, you have FAR longer attack distances, which also in theory work for Zerg, you can scout the enemy composition and create the correct unit composition to counter the push, but then what? It takes a long time to creep to the enemy base on that map, so a ground counter becomes extremely hard to do because of Zerg's off-creep mobility (or more accurately, lackthereof). So you're almost pigeonholed into Mutas or some cute Nydus play to maintain competitiveness.
To fix this, you'd have to give roaches and hydras on-creep speed by default, and change the creep incentive to something more favorable, like a regen bonus. I think the vision provided by the tumors is a good incentive as is to creep around the map, and with the addition of something like a regen bonus, spreading creep becomes a bonus but not a requirement, and there's still incentive for the enemy to take out tumors along the way due to the vision + X bonus the creep gives.
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On September 24 2010 06:34 OreoBoi wrote:
If blizzard is going to continue to promote SC2 as an E-sport right now, they need to patch it. The biggest problem right now is that there are many many tournaments and a lot of prizes to be won. Maybe zerg is the best if someone plays for a year, but this player will not win anything in this year. The thing with starcraft and brood war is that it took a while for the E-sports aspect to arrive, so people had a long time to practice all the races before professionally playing.
The learning curve for terran and protoss is easier than zerg, there's no arguing that. There's no incentive to learn to play zerg when you can win lots of money with terran or protoss right now. If everything shuts down for a few years, people will play zerg because they think it's fun and new strategies will form. However, if things remain as they are, top level zerg players will most likely switch to the other races to win.
i never understood the whole "patch it now!" mentality. to me that makes very little sense if we think about the game long term. if we mis-patch something now and have to re-patch something later what does that say about the people who won during the mis-patch? is blizzard going to babysit the game with patches every time a race has a hard time? understandably, it may be frustrating now but it's best to take it slow with long-term stability in mind.
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Said this months ago already, but:
zerg is just a one trick pony race that is even reactive instead of active. You can do so much more with terran units and be so much more creative it isn't even funny.
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On September 24 2010 06:04 DeckOneBell wrote:
I love how Nazgul, a professional level Starcraft 2 player comes into a thread with a fairly reasonable view of learning curve vs. balance, and immediately is shot down by many players citing zerg player rage.
Please take the argument into consideration before immediate disagreement in order to state that zerg is weak, and terran is imbalanced.
I much prefer a slow rate of experimental change that Blizzard seems to have employed.
Naz's post seemed entirely too neutral for me when the result of the imbalance is pretty dang obvious. I like the posts on the last few pages about underskilled Terran users winning tournaments/being high on ladder. As far as I can tell(Someone who was a solid B and possibly higher Zerg player in bw, no brag just saying! Also Top 50 NA during most of the beta until i stopped playing) im regularly losing to Terrans on ladder from 1200 and up who entirely have no skill outside of understanding the Terran blueprint to success! 60 apm players who can make micro mistakes constantly, have huge gaps in macro and sub-optimal builds and still barely scrape out a win sometimes. It only gets worse the higher the player, however some people who currently hover even in the 1600+ range absolutely do not deserve it. I've been joking with my SC friends that all terran players are a few hundred points ahead of where they would be if the race wasn't unreal.
Sorry if that shit sounds rude or whiney but it feels pretty f'n harsh when I had some goals to play this game competitively and judging from the koreans Im not the only one who is discouraged. The thing is for a while I stopped playing at the end of beta and when i resumed after nearly 2 months I thought "well im stressed and not putting work into learning and have no one to practice with, I guess Idra and other good players are still figuring out ways to win." But now I realize it isn't really like that, ladder stats are misleading because someone with much better resources(good players to practice against) and a higher skill level can of course still scrape MANY players on ladder. Particularly with the game being so new. But these dudes aren't winning tournaments, in fact I believe Cool struggled last week in GSL vs an 800pt Korean Terran(And he isnt the only low point terran to make it to top 64 in that tourney at ALL).. Now Zerg isn't auto-lose, the units have statistically some balance on paper I guess. If left alone spawn-larvae is probably the most broken thing in the game, which seems to be why balancing Z is so difficult, seems obvious what the solution is here to me and they should mess with spawn larvae and putting things like roach back to 1supply.. But in practice zerg have very little external pressure in the matches vs T/P. Particularly vs T i feel like T can harass endlessly, even switching entirely lines/modes of harass and all it takes is one successful run for them to pull way ahead. In the meantime zerg has but a few options to try to reverse this, most if spotted are a simple operation to completely deflect(Throw up a few bunkers, stop a nydus, etc). On top of this things like the Thor seem unbalanced from a gameplay standpoint, they just take no effort to use. How am I expected to counter micro vs a unit that kills most shit in 1 hit and all they need to do is activate auto-repair on scvs and maybe click back once in a while to make it take a little less fire, bleh
Never felt the Protoss match up balance was nearly as bad, at least some of the zerg tools(speedling mobility, roach as a useful unit, out-expanding, using spines) come in handy in that match up lol.. Im just venting at this point but I really do hope Blizzard makes some serious adjustments.
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On September 24 2010 02:25 superbabosheki wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2010 02:14 travis wrote:
who can blame him blizzard clearly is either bad at balancing the game or just doesn't care very much about making it good for top level competition
i guess they just don't mind taking 2 years to balance the game when people are trying to play it for a living That's stupid. Nobody should be playing SC for a living, maybe as an experience or something, but those who try to make a living off it deserve to get screwd. It's just a game.
So is football.
OHSHI~
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On September 24 2010 04:05 Liquid`Jinro wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2010 04:03 Decessus wrote:
Last time I went infestors as a big commitment in my game strat, he scanned them and quickly reacted by getting EMP. Sadface. Maybe I got unlucky. I think infestors beat ghosts sort of - steal one, EMP the others  Or fungal. Zerg with good creep and ol spread will have a really good idea of where the ghosts are. You should probably still make the ghosts against mass infestors tho, but I dont think they are a hard counter - the situation is kinda like HT vs Ghost I guess.
Jinro when you talk about mass infestor play, are you saying that their army composition mainly consists of infestors?? If so, do they rely on infested marines along with fungal growth when fighting?
What units do they use to back them up with?
Whenever I go infestors I just get about 3-4 for the fungal growths and thats it. I never tried going for mass infestors, seems really gas intensive but I'll have to try it out.
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On September 24 2010 02:37 heishe wrote:I wonder when a pro Terran comes out of the box and announces his switch to Zerg
I dunno but he would probably need a cart to haul his balls around.
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Baa?21245 Posts
On September 24 2010 06:38 mahnini wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2010 06:34 OreoBoi wrote:
If blizzard is going to continue to promote SC2 as an E-sport right now, they need to patch it. The biggest problem right now is that there are many many tournaments and a lot of prizes to be won. Maybe zerg is the best if someone plays for a year, but this player will not win anything in this year. The thing with starcraft and brood war is that it took a while for the E-sports aspect to arrive, so people had a long time to practice all the races before professionally playing.
The learning curve for terran and protoss is easier than zerg, there's no arguing that. There's no incentive to learn to play zerg when you can win lots of money with terran or protoss right now. If everything shuts down for a few years, people will play zerg because they think it's fun and new strategies will form. However, if things remain as they are, top level zerg players will most likely switch to the other races to win. i never understood the whole "patch it now!" mentality. to me that makes very little sense if we think about the game long term. if we mis-patch something now and have to re-patch something later what does that say about the people who won during the mis-patch? is blizzard going to babysit the game with patches every time a race has a hard time? understandably, it may be frustrating now but it's best to take it slow with long-term stability in mind.
What if we patch and realize the game was, in fact, crap before? What does it say about the people who won?
Works both ways -.-
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I think the source of the imbalance is that zerg is so hard to play. You have to pay attention to so much. Also the maps are so bad. The cliffs on the expansions of maps like Lost Temple is so imbalanced, because they can be dropped by other races before the zerg has overlord drop. In addition the maps are way to small. A perfect example is Steppes of War. You can walk from one expansion to the opponent's expansion like literally in seconds. If there was bigger maps and more open space, zergs can actually get surrounds, and defend from early all ins.
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EPT
