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awesomoecalypse
United States2235 Posts
because right now every zerg think they are some isane jaedong or flash , they do everything perfect and the only reason they ever loss = because of imbalance I don't play Zerg, I play Toss. My perspective isn't that of a Zerg player who feels he's playing better and still losing, it is that of a Protoss player who KNOWS I am playing worse against Zerg players, and still winning. And PvZ is way more balanced than TvZ. | ||
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Seam
United States1093 Posts
On September 24 2010 07:05 Oddysay wrote: you loss game because you are BAD at starcraft ! sorry but accept that , accept that you suck at RTS plz , if you dont do that we are going nowhere. Cool is not bad at starcraft. Julyzerg is most definatly not bad at starcraft. IdrA is not bad at starcraft. Check is not bad at starcraft. Dimaga is not bad at starcraft. I'm pretty sure they don't suck at RTS either. | ||
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RiGun
Argentina155 Posts
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Playboy.
40 Posts
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Na_Dann_Ma_GoGo
Germany2959 Posts
On September 24 2010 07:05 Oddysay wrote: nazgul pretty much right in what he say , funny and sad at the same time how the TL forum have turn . honestly all the reply here are from bad players ( hey im not good too ) , you guy are bad , accept that and maybe we can talk about balance later ? because right now every zerg think they are some isane jaedong or flash , they do everything perfect and the only reason they ever loss = because of imbalance ! seriously most people here posting and probably 99 % people playing the game are not lossing because of imbalance , because you probably dont event know what imbalanced . you loss game because you are BAD at starcraft ! sorry but accept that , accept that you suck at RTS plz , if you dont do that we are going nowhere. Always gotta love fools talking crap... A lot good points were made and no Zerg player claims he loses duo to imbalances only. Also improve your grammar when you want to sound so douchy. | ||
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skirmisheR
Sweden451 Posts
On September 24 2010 06:19 Titan107 wrote: Defending. I don't care what idra, dimaga, or cool say, I really dont. They could say zerg is overpowered and I wouldn't give a shit. Before patch, the only imbalance was 5rax reaper. Now, after patch, that strategy is gone and zerg stands a chance. The goal as a zerg player is to survive the early harassment and push to late game. Yes, it is true you cannot make a mistake as zerg. However, if you make no mistakes... your odds of winning are much higher than a terran. Not enough zergs are taking advantage of overlord speed, burrow, drops, or the ability to rapidly expand and outmacro the terran. Your comback to that statement might be, O BUT WAIT YOU NEED TIME TO REsearch! I say, no, you need to scout. Timing and scouting is the crux to the zerg race. Miss nothing and you will win. Back to infestor play: I find that infestors take zerg to the late game with more success than mutalisks (unless you see a window of opportunity through scouting). The ability to stop an army for 8 seconds at a time REALLY adds up when you take into consideration 40 sec. larvae spit. Also, its abilty to intercept drops with proper overlord/creep placement. Infested terrans are damn good as well. The strength of the zerg is their macro. Once you hit 3 bases, you can pretty much 5 hatch lings and run over the terran (not through attacking, but defending-Once again, scouting). I'm a visual learner so the reading style of this is bothering me. I like seeing it done. Meh! About 5RR: No it wasn't the only imbalance. If you think it is, then you haven't played ZvT or ZvP. It's so much easier to win as T or P against Z. I'd rather play T against a random Z than I play Z even though I've played 700+ Zerg games and only around 50 games with terran. Because I want to win, and it's much easier with terran even though I do not know one single build order but just improvises until I win. About drops: What shall I drop in T1/T2? Someone here said that 4 stimmed marauders can take out a hatchery in 10sec. Zerglings cannot take out a command center in 10 sec, no matter the numbers. Roaches can't either. Not to mention that CC and the rest of the terran structures can fly. So you will have to use units that can hit both air and ground. There is only two units: the hydras and the mutas. Hydras cannot be used in ZvT because they will get steamrolled. And you can't drop mutas. So you're left with muta harass which is denied by turrets until you've got critical mass. Which means it's much easier to tech to T3 and drop ultras. Do you get my point? The only unit worth dropping is ultras, and they're T3 while a terran can load up some marauders anytime and kill off a hatchery with 3 clicks and if the zerg doesn't have a lot of units nearby, they can't do anything about it. The research isn't the problem, it's the units of the zerg. "Timing and scouting is the crux to the zerg race. Miss nothing and you will win." If you play against a retard sure, but the problem is that you will have to play sooooo much better than a T player to win against him. That's called imbalance. If you take a T and a Z player with equal experiences the T player will win. That's the problem. Infestors are great spellcasters. But compare it to the raven and you will see the problem. Fungal growth is great, but since zerg has ONE spellcaster, which has only ONE good spell you can't really say "this is a great spell, therefore Z and T is balanced". "The strength of the zerg is their macro. Once you hit 3 bases, you can pretty much 5 hatch lings and run over the terran" Yeah you can defend. IF you hit 3 bases you can defend. The problem is that Terran needs only ONE base to defend. And if T hit 2 bases they can also attack. While the zerg needs 3 bases to only DEFEND. That is ridiculous. | ||
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Saechiis
Netherlands4989 Posts
On September 24 2010 07:06 JamieDukes wrote: the only really good Zergs are Idra and Ret (Ret very safe guy, goes to gym etc) Cool is a joker but i think his views should be taken with a shred of calm You're full of crap. | ||
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Reborn8u
United States1761 Posts
First of all PvT is no picnic. Imagine playing ZvT against MM without banelings. Maruaders rape Stalkers, zeolots, sentries, colossus. Marines rape immortals and void rays. What else is toss going to have early game? With stim and the combination of concussive shells and marine's dps it can be a real nightmare because with stim and concussive the Terran can do some really abusive micro and kiting but the toss cannot micro against it in any really effective way. Colossus are great once you've hit critical mass of them and if there are lots of marines but the amount of gas and time it takes means you might spend a ton of gas and never get to use one. Storm is okay, but it takes so much gas and so long to get out, and an mm ball can take a direct hit from storm,stand still, stim and still rape your army (and the fact that you spend tons of gas for psi storm means your army will be weaker and full of easily kitable zeolots) Don't believe me? Play PvT on blistering sands vs Insane AI, you'll see what I'm describing here. It's not impossible but I think a Toss player is at a large disadvantage VS a Terran player of equal skill. Ghosts starting with emp can be a real bitch as well, it basically counters everything toss has, including spell casters. It's like Templars starting out with psi storm and being able to make a templar archive right after cyber (with no twilight) For all the people who are going to rage over what im saying i have one question, What can toss make that isn't hard countered by Ghost, viking, MM (they will only need 3 of the 4 in almost any case mind you) Void Rays range and damage nerfed, Zealots (build time), sentries (lost 20% damage), immortals (build time), psi storm( Area of damage), cannons (build time) , mothership (build time). It seems like every time Toss finds a build for PvT Blizzard goes "Terrans are QQing, time for a nerf" Zerg is without question in my mind in a worse position. After broodwar Terran got all this kewl new stuff. Bunker salvage, orbital command, PF, the new engineering bay upgrades, tech labs, reactors, marauders, reapers <= all without a factory being made. After the factory they have more amazing units of all sorts (viking, tanks, ravens, medevacs). Yet after broodwar, zerg got overlord detection taken away, burrow and hydra moved higher in the tech tree, spine crawlers are much weaker than sunkens were, Queens are poop (spawn larva punishes you if you miss cycles where chrono and mules don't hurt nearly as much to miss) lurkers got taken away. In return they got roaches (which were nerfed into obscurity) and banelings which are good except for the fact that zerg can't really afford to throw away tons of gas early game and expect to exist in the mid game (the seem a little all-in-ish in most cases. I think what would help zerg and balance is to weaken a few things like hydras, and maybe broodlords but make them easier (faster/cheaper) to get out. It's options they are lacking. Give zerg back lurkers, and give them a building that can burrow so they can wall. Maybe and evo chamber. I think Terran just has to many options. There needs to be more requirements for some of their tech tree. Ghosts are too easy to get out and too strong, and terrans have it too easy when it comes to expanding (because of muling new expos, liftoff retreat, PF, and being able to hide the fact that they are building an expo behind a wall. Toss is ok, JUST STOP FUCKING NERFING THEM ALREADY OMG! nerfing zealots is like nerfing marines, and that day will never come. Blizzard just seems to love terran and wants everyone to play them. I say EVERYONE play Terran for a few weeks make blizzard happy. That's obviously what they want. Btw the whole statement about blizzard not wanting to make flavor of the week changes is a bunch of crap. They made plenty of flavor of the week changes in beta, changes that are still around. PS. Yes many zerg losses could be overcome with better play. But I stand very firm on the opinion that a zerg player must be far more skilled than a terran player to win. BTW I never play zerg and I feel this strongly for them. PvZ rules! | ||
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KristianJS
2107 Posts
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Escape
Canada306 Posts
On September 24 2010 07:06 Headshot wrote: The problem is that this isn't enough. There really is a huge underlying problem with Zerg's infrastructure, and it's nothing that a damage buff here and there can fix. The way the race works right now is horribly flawed. true true.. by stats I mean overlord movement speed, creep speed, queen starting energy, etc. blizzard should really throw zerg users a bone. 1) to show that they are actively thinking and doing stuff. 2) take frequent baby steps instead of big strides; that way, it is easier to make minor direction adjustments along the way. | ||
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ThE_ShiZ
United States143 Posts
Why is everyone talking about terran. Theres been alot of PvP in GSL aswell, and if you ask me, i think ZvP is harder then ZvT. A lot of Koreans are starting to think that, especially now that Protosses are developing more macro-based strategies and not just 4 gate pushes, which are actually still very powerful on most maps, and sometimes near-impossible to stop. I think an immediate fix would be an improved map pool. This is the quickest and easiest way to resolve many problems. The maps would be larger, have tighter chokes at natural, no cliffs near minerals, open center (without retarded walls like LT) and an easier to take third. This is the development that BW maps took, why did Blizzard neglect this in SC2? | ||
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.drOGba
United States4 Posts
On September 24 2010 07:05 Oddysay wrote: nazgul pretty much right in what he say , funny and sad at the same time how the TL forum have turn . honestly all the reply here are from bad players ( hey im not good too ) , you guy are bad , accept that and maybe we can talk about balance later ? because right now every zerg think they are some isane jaedong or flash , they do everything perfect and the only reason they ever loss = because of imbalance ! seriously most people here posting and probably 99 % people playing the game are not lossing because of imbalance , because you probably dont event know what imbalanced . you loss game because you are BAD at starcraft ! sorry but accept that , accept that you suck at RTS plz , if you dont do that we are going nowhere. Obvious Terran is obvious. User was banned for this post. | ||
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Seam
United States1093 Posts
And he's a troll. Self admitted. On August 30 2010 21:52 Oddysay wrote: i also know that i am a big troll in teamliquid . but sometime just reading balance topic and reading reply , i just want to say something more stupid that what some people say because im just fealing rage or sadness reading them . http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=148676#1 He also posts in just about every "Zerg needs help" thread with something along the lines of "You all just suck! Stop sucking like Terrans do!" | ||
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Elevators
United States56 Posts
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Jettster
United States73 Posts
On September 24 2010 07:07 awesomoecalypse wrote: I don't play Zerg, I play Toss. My perspective isn't that of a Zerg player who feels he's playing better and still losing, it is that of a Protoss player who KNOWS I am playing worse against Zerg players, and still winning. And PvZ is way more balanced than TvZ. Exactly, quotes like the one you quoted frustrates me so much. People need to understand that it isn't a matter of perfect play but, how much more perfect you have to play than your opponent to win, that in my opinion, is what defines imbalance. I feel like I have very little room for error when I'm playing zerg as opposed to when I'm playing protoss. | ||
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lololol
5198 Posts
On September 24 2010 07:01 Carnivorous Sheep wrote: Well I think this is where a lot of frustration comes from, being that Zergs, myself included, feel the patches aren't coming fast enough. The scenario that you described, I wouldn't mind if Terrans got a patch. If Terrans were pulling <20% in the top 16 of almost every tournament, with no wins, I would acknowledge that a patch needs to come out fast. If Zergs had like, 2/8 in the Ro8 of stuff, I might be more sympathetic of the "wait and see" approach, but I think right now is when the situation qualifies as dire enough. Cast in point: Situation report 1.1 was released like a month ago, took a month to release, with no real changes. What was Blizzard doing for a month? Stuff like that is ridiculous to someone who's playing a race that needs a hotfix right this instant. If anyone denies that Zerg is underpowered now, that'd be ridiculous. I'd be willing to admit Terran is underpowered under these same circumstances... You mean "What was Blizzard doing for three months?", since the build time changes of the zealot, reaper and bunker were in their internal testing build before beta phase 2 started. Practically the only new thing was the tank nerf. The BC nerf was pretty random and the completely untested ultralisk change was supposed to be something minor to use against closely positioned depots and such. | ||
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berzerger
Turkey95 Posts
And also it's very interesting when an "okay" zerg tries to complain about the race, the only response he gets is "learn to use your race, you are bad, everything is fine" and constant bashing. And those same ppl now, in this thread, actually are discussing and embracing the idea of zerg being up. Hipocrisy at its finest... Anyway, I really started to believe that SC BW and its balance was a freak accident from blizzard. They showed that they couldn't care less about community regarding the games that are released after scbw | ||
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Reborn8u
United States1761 Posts
To all the people saying Toss is op Zealot = nerfed sentry = nerfed immortal = nerfed mothership = nerfed void ray = nerfed cannon = nerfed HT = nerfed Yet more people say Terran is op and they get few and insignificant nerfs by comparison. | ||
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Ecael
United States6703 Posts
On September 24 2010 07:06 mahnini wrote: well the scenario i described is far more one dimensional than the current situation we have in zvt where a lot of people say there are underlying fundamental things wrong with how zerg works in the matchup. you can see this in balance discussion threads, people know something is wrong but know one knows exactly what. perhaps blizzard was too hasty with their decision to come out of beta but they can't really introduce constant and drastic changes after release to try and balance it. I think that this is a good time to bring up Nazgul's point about the learning curve. Actual balance aside, when the race is just featuring a small amount of players with those players being increasingly discouraged, there isn't about to be much innovation. As the pool of player drops, so does the innovation. We could say that Boxer singlehanded changed T of SC1 with his brilliant plays, but we don't happen by the Emperor very often. Hoping for one for Z, especially when there is money on the line, is extremely unlikely to occur. Consequently, Z will need to gain some momentum and get players somehow. At this point, I think for a lot of the zerg players, we don't care about how good the patches are, we just want to see a patch with significant changes to zerg. The more the better, actually. Suppose that the patch Scourge, Lurker and Defiler into the game, that alone will bring a good amount of Z to start playing a lot more again. How good will all that be for the long term balance of the game? Pretty bad, I expect, but what else can you do to get people to play Z? Nazgul is perfectly right, we need time for Z to catch up. All the people here saying that map affects balance have a valid point too, games definitely play a lot more differently when we are playing, say, Crossfire instead of Kulas. But then, what do we consider more important? The SC2 esports scene, or the game competitively on the long run? For the latter, it is definitely better to apply smaller changes as to be better observe the consequences, but the former doesn't have the time for that. It might be tougher on Blizzard to get the final balance of the game right, but at the moment, it needs to take some drastic actions before Z starts to fade out of the competitive scene and bring the industry down with it. Meh, if Blizzard really cares they'd do fotm patches to keep people happy while contracting a lot more testers, especially from the Korean scene, to do more internal small tests. Instead they release patches once in a blue moon. They might have the best of intentions, but it isn't about to retain player base. | ||
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figq
12519 Posts
It matters whether your race is already capable of winning, or you are supposed to hope, pray, work hard, and experiment, expecting miraculous breakthroughs to turn the tide. It matters, if you are about to lose hundreds of thousands dollars meanwhile. This was okay in beta, but now it's not. I suspect this whole "total knockout" league format may prove unsuited for RTS, because it forces unification and kills the variety of the game. It's much better for the players to not have to think too much about survival, beyond following the goals of their team as a whole, so they feel secure and confident enough to concentrate on developing their own race (even if it's weaker for the moment). | ||
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