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On September 24 2010 04:05 Toxigen wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2010 02:25 Odds wrote:
I really don't understand Blizzard's intense fear of somehow making Zerg 'too strong'. Is it somehow worse than having either of the other races far too strong- as is currently the case with Terran? This isn't what Blizzard fears. Blizzard fears that they'll make a race "underpowered" in every patch cycle. Let's say that they come out with a huge balance patch in 1.2. This patch, for the sake of argument, magically fixes all Zerg's issues with Terran with a roach buff. But since Zerg doesn't have the same sorts of issues with Protoss as they do with Terran, let's say that Zerg is slightly overtuned now against Protoss in the early/midgame. So, Blizzard makes a couple minor changes to Protoss in 1.3 to give Protoss parity with Zerg by making immortals easier to get in larger numbers earlier to fight off the "improved" 1.2 roaches. But now, immortals are too easy to get and COMPLETELY nullify marauder pushes. Overly effective 1.3 zealot/immortal timing pushes now become standard PvT and Terran is now UP v Protoss even though they've finally become balanced against Zerg in 1.2 ... and around and around it goes.
The balance issues are zvp and zvt. It's not clear which is worse, but the problem is zerg.
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Russian Federation82 Posts
i think to fix the game they should incease Zerglings health to 30 this make the metagame better 
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On September 24 2010 07:14 Elevators wrote:
It's interesting how most people seem to ignore how strong Protoss are as a race... 95% of rage goes toward Terran. >_>
Haha I know. I heard in korea pvz is more imba than tvz.
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I just dont know why so many people think its alright to wait for 2 years for the game to be balanced. We paid for a well designed and enjoyable balanced game but got a work in progress. Also blizzard seem in no interest at all to rapidly completely this work in progress.
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I think that every match up except TvZ is balanced. ZvP and TvP are both fine, in my opinion.
I think the main issue with TvZ is that they have so many units that counter Zerg units. Reapers can kite any zerg unit short of hydralisk indefinitely, hellions can do the same. Drop ships are too common in TvZ because the Terran has to have them anyways for the bio army.
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On September 24 2010 07:07 Seam wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2010 07:05 Oddysay wrote:
you loss game because you are BAD at starcraft ! sorry but accept that , accept that you suck at RTS plz , if you dont do that we are going nowhere.
Cool is not bad at starcraft. Julyzerg is most definatly not bad at starcraft. IdrA is not bad at starcraft. Check is not bad at starcraft. Dimaga is not bad at starcraft. I'm pretty sure they don't suck at RTS either.
was talking about player , and im not trolling 
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Baa?21244 Posts
On September 24 2010 07:06 mahnini wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2010 07:01 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:On September 24 2010 06:57 mahnini wrote:On September 24 2010 06:46 Ecael wrote:On September 24 2010 06:38 mahnini wrote:On September 24 2010 06:34 OreoBoi wrote:
If blizzard is going to continue to promote SC2 as an E-sport right now, they need to patch it. The biggest problem right now is that there are many many tournaments and a lot of prizes to be won. Maybe zerg is the best if someone plays for a year, but this player will not win anything in this year. The thing with starcraft and brood war is that it took a while for the E-sports aspect to arrive, so people had a long time to practice all the races before professionally playing.
The learning curve for terran and protoss is easier than zerg, there's no arguing that. There's no incentive to learn to play zerg when you can win lots of money with terran or protoss right now. If everything shuts down for a few years, people will play zerg because they think it's fun and new strategies will form. However, if things remain as they are, top level zerg players will most likely switch to the other races to win. i never understood the whole "patch it now!" mentality. to me that makes very little sense if we think about the game long term. if we mis-patch something now and have to re-patch something later what does that say about the people who won during the mis-patch? is blizzard going to babysit the game with patches every time a race has a hard time? understandably, it may be frustrating now but it's best to take it slow with long-term stability in mind. But mahnini, that assumes that Blizzard in fact has the time to slowly patch things. Should this have been SC1 again and there was nothing on the line for Blizzard other than the copies it can sell, I'd agree. However, we are in an age where that immediately upon the release of the game, there are large competitive events starting, an emerging market that's highly dependent on game balance. Should Blizzard only care about the sales of SC2 and its expansions, then yes, taking its time is certainly an option. However, it just isn't entertaining to see a game containing supposedly 3 races and only 2 used in the tournaments. Most of us figured that the next expansion will probably make zerg a lot more polished, but that's 18 months away at best. How many of us will care about SC2 still if the game isn't entertaining to watch or play (for the what, 20ish% zerg players out there?) Honestly it'll probably be healthier for e-sports as an industry for Blizzard to apply such bandaid fixes than to be cautious and not try to overreact to things. this is a good point and i am not exclusively advocating being slow about patching. i think blizzard should try and fix imbalances as quickly as possible but should still be allowed to take their time and implement the correct action rather than throw out balance patches that only address issues in the short term. Well I think this is where a lot of frustration comes from, being that Zergs, myself included, feel the patches aren't coming fast enough. The scenario that you described, I wouldn't mind if Terrans got a patch. If Terrans were pulling <20% in the top 16 of almost every tournament, with no wins, I would acknowledge that a patch needs to come out fast. If Zergs had like, 2/8 in the Ro8 of stuff, I might be more sympathetic of the "wait and see" approach, but I think right now is when the situation qualifies as dire enough. Cast in point: Situation report 1.1 was released like a month ago, took a month to release, with no real changes. What was Blizzard doing for a month? Stuff like that is ridiculous to someone who's playing a race that needs a hotfix right this instant. If anyone denies that Zerg is underpowered now, that'd be ridiculous. I'd be willing to admit Terran is underpowered under these same circumstances... well the scenario i described is far more one dimensional than the current situation we have in zvt where a lot of people say there are underlying fundamental things wrong with how zerg works in the matchup. you can see this in balance discussion threads, people know something is wrong but know one knows exactly what. perhaps blizzard was too hasty with their decision to come out of beta but they can't really introduce constant and drastic changes after release to try and balance it.
I agree that it's something fundamental. I think a lot of people expected that for the first few months after release, balance changes would come at around the same pace as beta, and that's where a lot of disappointment comes from also.
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First of all PvT is no picnic.
Terran may be somewhat easier to play if you suck (although its not like 4 gating is exactly difficult), but at the highest level of play I think PvT is easily the most balanced non-mirror matchup. The GSL has a very decent number of Toss players left, and a few of them (Lotze, Inca, Tester) all look very capable of winning it all.
Terran is basically fine. Protoss are fine, except for Colossi making PvP such a screwy mirror.
Zerg are too weak. They are too weak against Protoss, and they are definitely too weak against Terran.
Blizz needs to start buffing Zerg. They can make incremental changes if they want to, for example, "In this patch we're increasing the rate at which tumors spread creep by 30%, increasing overlord speed by 20%, and increasing Roach burrowed regen." Then see what that does. if its not enough, buff a bit more.
But they need to start the process. Even if they don't get it right immediately, it would do something even more valuable: give Zerg players hope. The race cannot afford a mass exodus by the top players. Even if it isn't balanced immediately, if Zerg players have reason to believe that Blizzard will take steps to get it there, they are much less likely to switch races.
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On September 24 2010 07:05 Oddysay wrote:
nazgul pretty much right in what he say , funny and sad at the same time how the TL forum have turn .
honestly all the reply here are from bad players ( hey im not good too ) , you guy are bad , accept that and maybe we can talk about balance later ?
because right now every zerg think they are some isane jaedong or flash , they do everything perfect and the only reason they ever loss = because of imbalance !
seriously most people here posting and probably 99 % people playing the game are not lossing because of imbalance , because you probably dont event know what imbalanced . you loss game because you are BAD at starcraft ! sorry but accept that , accept that you suck at RTS plz , if you dont do that we are going nowhere.
So you are saying one of the best zergs in the world? One of the 2 who are still in the GSL, sucks at RTS?
Becasue the topic is about him, and the thoughts in the OP are his.
If so: check your totem bro.
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On September 24 2010 07:19 Oddysay wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2010 07:07 Seam wrote:On September 24 2010 07:05 Oddysay wrote:
you loss game because you are BAD at starcraft ! sorry but accept that , accept that you suck at RTS plz , if you dont do that we are going nowhere.
Cool is not bad at starcraft. Julyzerg is most definatly not bad at starcraft. IdrA is not bad at starcraft. Check is not bad at starcraft. Dimaga is not bad at starcraft. I'm pretty sure they don't suck at RTS either. hello? im not talking about them or the know good players
Then you agree that Z is weak. Good to know.
Random note, you made a big deal about not buying the game. Seems you changed your mind?
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On September 24 2010 07:17 TitleRug wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2010 07:14 Elevators wrote:
It's interesting how most people seem to ignore how strong Protoss are as a race... 95% of rage goes toward Terran. >_> Haha I know. I heard in korea pvz is more imba than tvz.
"I heard, in Korea.." is one of my alltime favorite ways of argumenting for balance.
No, really.
Btw did you hear that in Korea, Zergs "dominate"?
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Did anyone else find the initial message ridiculously funny?
So now we only have Idra repping the Z (and those two wind people). It's wierd. It seems IMo that zerg's mid/lategame is as strong if not stronger than the other races. Still it's been what.... almost 2 months now?
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On September 24 2010 07:06 JamieDukes wrote:
the only really good Zergs are Idra and Ret (Ret very safe guy, goes to gym etc)
Cool is a joker but i think his views should be taken with a shred of calm
Ret very safe guy, goes to gym etc? Shred of calm? I don't know what to say, but you might want to see a doctor about this...
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On September 24 2010 07:19 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:
I agree that it's something fundamental.
I think its a term I like to call "love". As in throughout alpha and beta players noticed that Terran and Protoss were getting much more "love" than zerg. As a result you have a race with less units, less spells/abilities, and less developed macro mechanics. Now none of those in and of itself says that the Zerg has to be the weaker/harder race. But its certainly not surprising.
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this game shows in my oppinon, that one big problem of zerg is the immobility of hydras...
I play Terran and really, I think hydras are too slow... Its not even fun to play against a Zerg who does hydras, since they get raped by everything...
Hydras are not immobile at all on creep.
Now, you could buff Hyrda off-creep speed...
Or you could just make creep much easier to spread. That would help Hydras, but also Queens, and also every other Zerg unit to a lesser degree.
It would also allow Zerg to be "aggressive" in a unique way--by FORCING Terran and Toss players to take active steps to stop the flow of creep before the Zerg takes over the map. In the same way that Zerg players currently have to think "oh shit, am I about to be harassed by reapers or hit with a 2-gate?", Terran and Toss players would have to actually worry about making sure they weren't losing the map to creep spread.
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Honestly most of the people in this thread need to stop jumping on the bandwagon and just take a second to think about what is actually happening. In beta: zergs werent UP they were OP my god were roaches stupid, so they nerfed roachs, a bit overboard but through a few nerfs zerg became "balanced" in beta. Sure they went a bit overboard and made zerg UP with those nerfs but the effect cannot be seen until the game was launched and the pros from all games got a chance to innovate the game.
If noone thoguht of using 5 rax reapers would people have considered reapesr to be ridiculously cost effective early game? prehaps not. If people arent hitting the skill cap and dropping everywhere would that be an issue? no. Its the fact that people are now innovating and coming up with better and better strategies that these flaws are seen and its only at the very top level. 90% of the people couldnt replicate these issues. Sure they need to be fixed but they havent been discovered to be that bad until recently.
Just because theres a problem doesnt mean theres an easy solution, if there is the game would be 100% balanced already, give it some time blizzard will come up with a way to balance things instead of a bandaid solution which makes something else OP instead. That last point is the thing we want to avoid, id rather blizzard take their time to fix something properly than bandaid things like they do in wow so you constantly have new fotm setups.
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"If I maintain my muta number, I can't win." I wonder what this means?
If he spams mutas the counter of stim marines or whatever unit *theres 4* that do well against muta just check them out and you have zerglings left over. which die. often.
also: Roaches seriously need to not be 2 supply.
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You know what would fix zerg?
1. Lurkers
2. Scourge
3. Defilers
There's no need for discussion, this is it.
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The problem with TvZ, to me at least, is more a scouting problem than anything. Not being able to get any scouting info on the terran while they're opening with one of any 12+ openings they have is what causes me the most problems.
ZvP, on the other hand, just feels completely broken to me.
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EPT
