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On September 24 2010 07:14 berzerger wrote:
As a zerg player I am very sad.
And also it's very interesting when an "okay" zerg tries to complain about the race, the only response he gets is "learn to use your race, you are bad, everything is fine" and constant bashing.
And those same ppl now, in this thread, actually are discussing and embracing the idea of zerg being up.
Hipocrisy at its finest...
Anyway, I really started to believe that SC BW and its balance was a freak accident from blizzard. They showed that they couldn't care less about community regarding the games that are released after scbw
That is bullshit dude. They still keep servers up for wc3 and are going to release a patch in the future for it. That is a game that hasn't made them money for 2-3 years. Blizzard may be failing at patching sc2, but that statement is stupid.
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On September 24 2010 07:28 wackedupwacko wrote:
Honestly most of the people in this thread need to stop jumping on the bandwagon and just take a second to think about what is actually happening. In beta: zergs werent UP they were OP my god were roaches stupid, so they nerfed roachs, a bit overboard but through a few nerfs zerg became "balanced" in beta.
In the beta, ROACHES were OP, not the zerg as a race. Zerg has been lacking options since day 1.
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Sweden33719 Posts
On September 24 2010 04:09 Pekkz wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2010 04:05 Liquid`Jinro wrote:On September 24 2010 04:03 Decessus wrote:
Last time I went infestors as a big commitment in my game strat, he scanned them and quickly reacted by getting EMP. Sadface. Maybe I got unlucky. I think infestors beat ghosts sort of - steal one, EMP the others  Or fungal. Zerg with good creep and ol spread will have a really good idea of where the ghosts are. You should probably still make the ghosts against mass infestors tho, but I dont think they are a hard counter - the situation is kinda like HT vs Ghost I guess. On what planet would this actually happen in a real high end game. Its more likely the infestors would be sniped in a sec, or ghost would have cloak then actually see a infestor NP a ghost to emp the other ghost LOL.
Ive seen it happen ;p
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That's definitely one of zerg's problems. In BW hydras had a speed upgrade. In SC2 that speed upgrade was replaced by creep tumors and nydus worm travel. Problem is that creep tumors require you sacrifice additional larva and it also requires a lot of macro and the creep tumors die easily, wasting a lot of the time and energy spent on spreading those tumors. As for nydus worms, each tunnel you make costs the same as a muta. Considering how much gas is needed to make hydras you simply might not have enough to sustain nydus worm harassment unless you are greatly outexpanding your opponent. Obviously winning with hydras requires that you are much better than your opponent.
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I hope you are awake again already Jinro and not still awake.
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Dustin Browder as lead designer for SC2? The guy is a below average game designer with numerous C&C games to his credit.
C&C FFS!
Hiring the absolute wrong guy to develop SC2 was where Blizz went wrong.
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I do think that zerg is weak, but still it's not as if broodwar was perfectly balanced, back in the day people would qq about how easy it was for protoss to just 1a2a3a their way into C rank iccup while a C rank terran player would have to be much faster with their hands and likely have to have better mechanics.
While at the top ranks of BW, I would consider terran to be stronger than protoss and zerg, see bonjwas.
but even with these imbalances we still all found bw to be amazingly fun and exciting to watch and play (hence we are all here),
So I don't think that SC2 is that far off, but should be only minor tweaks from here (atleast until they add more units in the expansions)
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Honestly, we don't need very big changes to make this balanced. We don't need a "fundamental" change in Zerg as a race. We just need a few smart buffs in the right places.
1.1 was a good start. Not enough, but a good start.
At this point, I'd just like to hear from Blizzard. What do they think about balance? What are they planning for the future?
Now would be a good time for some communication, honestly...
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Australia4865 Posts
On September 24 2010 07:34 gozima wrote:
Dustin Browder as lead designer for SC2? The guy is a below average game designer with numerous C&C games to his credit.
C&C FFS!
Hiring the absolute wrong guy to develop SC2 was where Blizz went wrong.
Lead balance designer is David Kim, highest rated Random player on NA.
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This is what anyone with common sense has been saying since day 1, Zerg has less options, takes more APM and skill to play.
Re Cools point about Medivacs. Maybe Medivac healing should be an upgrade. If Zerg has to upgrade units like roach, bane, hydra, ling, to make them viable, then so should Terran. Even Protoss has to do it to a lesser extent, e.g. Charge.
Key factors why Zerg is underpowered:
- Zerg cannot wall-in (even if you wasted resources for a row of spines the lack of ranged damage dealers to back up your wall makes it totally unviable.)
- Zerg can't fight in chokes (again the lack of ranged damage dealers means chokes are zergs natural enemy, and without something like the defiler to help with that it amplifys the problem.)
- Creep is a disadvantage (fighting off creep is a big disadvantage to Zerg, it also takes significant time and APM to spread creep, yet it can be destroyed very easily by the opponent. It is also a limiter on where you can build and also makes you very easily scouted)
- Zerg AA is weak (Hydras come late leaving Z open to abuse. Hydras are slow off creep and are made of paper. Spore crawlers are not effective and uproot takes too long and is a poor tradeoff, would rather a permanant spore with better range/dmg.)
- Zerg has less combat units, thus less options (Foregoing all workers, overlord/overseer/nydus for Z and observer / warp prism for P, because they are non combat and cant deal damage. The number combat units per race - T 12, P 12, Z 9 [10 if queen is counted])
- Zerg units lack utility without upgrades (e.g. zergling without speed upgrade, roach without speed or burrow, bane without speed, hydra without range, ultra without carapace. In contrast, marine/marauder/reaper/ghost/hellion/medivac/ still good with no upgrades, upgrades are just icing on the cake for terran)
- Zerg t3 takes too long to reach (From the instant you make your first Spawning Pool, it takes 410 seconds minimum before you can start making an Ultralisk, assuming you go Straight for it, or 480 for Broodlords. Compared to the 235 for a Battlecruiser, or 260 for Carriers/Mothership, that's obscene. source)
- Zerg does not have a unit that can deal damage from stealth (burrow)
- Zerg does not have a unit that can use the cliff jump mechanic
- Spawn larva is a blessing and a curse (Being able to bank larvae is great, but at the cost of having more APM required, requires queens which consume 2 supply ea. It is really more of a necessity than anything else, having units that are disposable and swarmy. Overall the mechanic is a disadvantage, macro is much easier from warpgates or rax/factories etc.)
- Zerg scouting can easily be denied
- Zerg units do not work well in 'critical mass', or as a ball. (Compared to T and P armies, Zerg has a weak army in critical mass, both T and P can get huge momentum going once they reach their critical mass. Zergs suffers from lack of good ranged damage and weak units. Choked terrain compounds this problem.)
- Zerg can be punished for mistakes very easily. (Mainly due to lack of ability to wall-in or to use chokes defensively)
- Corrupters and Infestors are less than good. (Even though fungal is decent, they're just not good units overall.)
You may not agree on all of said points, but it is hard to argue with the overall view that Zerg needs adjustment. Especially when we have top Pros like Cool, Idra, Dimaga etc. complaining about it. Even Ret said it, pretty much a week after him getting started.
Also I'm not trying to suggest that every point needs to be fixed so that Zerg has an equal and opposite response, but that Zerg are lacking in those key areas. It's up to Blizz to give Zerg more options and tools, they don't need to be the same as the other races, the more diversity the better.
And for disclosure I play random. I really think that Blizz has some cool stuff up their sleeves for HoTS, but they thought zerg would have faired a little better than it is currently doing, and probably hoped they could just buy time with some minor tweaks till then.
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On September 24 2010 07:38 Captain Peabody wrote:
Honestly, we don't need very big changes to make this balanced. We don't need a "fundamental" change in Zerg as a race. We just need a few smart buffs in the right places.
1.1 was a good start. Not enough, but a good start.
At this point, I'd just like to hear from Blizzard. What do they think about balance? What are they planning for the future?
Now would be a good time for some communication, honestly...
With "we" you mean you and your Terran buddies? Numbertweaking won't cut it this time. Zerg needs a huge early-midgame overhaul. More openings, more options. Nothing less!
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On September 24 2010 07:38 Dommk wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2010 07:34 gozima wrote:
Dustin Browder as lead designer for SC2? The guy is a below average game designer with numerous C&C games to his credit.
C&C FFS!
Hiring the absolute wrong guy to develop SC2 was where Blizz went wrong. Lead balance designer is David Kim, highest rated Random player on NA.
Pics or it didn't happen.
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On September 24 2010 07:38 Dommk wrote:
Lead balance designer is David Kim, highest rated Random player on NA.
I'm pretty sure David Kim came out and said that he's not Dayvie.
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the fact was terran isnt op cause of reapers, its dropships and how that small puny force could do so much freakin damage
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On September 24 2010 06:02 gozima wrote:
This isn't the BW era of gaming. If Blizz take their sweet time balancing Zerg, a lot of people will lose interest in SC2 as a game and E-Sport.
It's ridiculous for Blizz to wait until HoTS to fully flesh out Zerg because by that time, only a small fraction of people that bought SC2 will still be interested in the game.
Expansion packs have never expanded the audience of the original game, so if Blizz continue on their current path, SC2 will basically be dead by the time HoTS comes out.
There are a lot ofposts in this thread, and despite this oje probably being the most random and off-topic, I still have to laugh at it.
Seriously, even without the common knowledge that WoW's population almost doubles from where it stands pre-expansion, to expansion release, and that companies rely on expansions to bring back old players, as well as new advertising to bring in new players, the math itself should be obvious.
99% of the people currently playing the game will buy the expansion. Then you add on about 20% of the people that quit, coming back (that's conservative). Then add on more people that try the game for the first time for further hype. In the gaming world, a minimum 25% population increase is *huge*.
So please, think about your claims before making them.
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On September 24 2010 07:35 sechkie wrote:
I do think that zerg is weak, but still it's not as if broodwar was perfectly balanced, back in the day people would qq about how easy it was for protoss to just 1a2a3a their way into C rank iccup while a C rank terran player would have to be much faster with their hands and likely have to have better mechanics.
While at the top ranks of BW, I would consider terran to be stronger than protoss and zerg, see bonjwas.
but even with these imbalances we still all found bw to be amazingly fun and exciting to watch and play (hence we are all here),
So I don't think that SC2 is that far off, but should be only minor tweaks from here (atleast until they add more units in the expansions)
There were definitely points in skill levels in bw where players felt like it was hard to push to the next level in certain match ups. However it was really nothing compared to how it feels in SC2 ZvT ; ]
I would say I feel like during beta all the buffs to Terran were perhaps unneeded. Some top players at the time(Tester?) had foreseen Terran becoming much stronger/unbeatable.
Also does anyone else find it strange that one of the core fundamentals of the whole game(Zealot vs Ling vs Marine) is totally different now. Marine with +5hp and higher dps, ling with lowered damage output. Still not sure what all this was about outside of some way to handicap zergling use at the lower levels of the game from being too powerful, since moving them all is very easy now.
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Australia4865 Posts
Re Cools point about Medivacs. Maybe Medivac healing should be an upgrade. If Zerg has to upgrade units like roach, bane, hydra, ling, to make them viable, then so should Terran. Even Protoss has to do it to a lesser extent, e.g. Charge.
Pretty sure his point about medivacs more has to do with the fact that as soon as he leaves his base two-three dropships with 8/12 marauders comes in rapes his Hive/tech-structures in 10seconds and pretty much limits his ability to expand since it's almost impossible to control the entire map or have enough units at every expansion to feel safe.
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Lets just hope for blizzard to finaly realise that Zerg needs a buff instead of nerfing going on... not that they'll ever really buff something its sad that they want to safe up all cool stuff for Zerg for the expansion... alteast thats what we are expecting.
One can only wonder if Blizzard will do something about the current state of Zerg i dont evenly know not overly nerfing Zerg during beta would have been a good thing in a way thats not where the problems are at the moment
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if I played for money at all, there is 100% no way I would be sticking with zerg right now. I would have waited for this patch, but with this patch not doing nearly enough for the zerg problems, I would swap over to terran.
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Sweden33719 Posts
On September 24 2010 04:12 bokeevboke wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2010 03:38 Liquid`Jinro wrote:On September 24 2010 03:32 Koukalaka wrote:On September 24 2010 03:29 Liquid`Jinro wrote:On September 24 2010 03:24 Koukalaka wrote:On September 24 2010 03:02 Liquid`Jinro wrote:
TLO playing Zerg is actually really, really sick to watch and everytime it makes me wonder why nobody else plays the way he does ZvT :S I hope we can get a video of him/his screen while playing, he is really impressive mechanically. You're not seriously suggesting that Cool, IdrA and Checkprime (arguably the three best Zergs there are) are all playing Zerg, a supposedly reactive rather than active race, incorrectly when they play reactively? I really hope you didn't just say the best three Zerg players in the world are playing it wrong because TLO plays Zerg once a month. Not at all what I said -_- That's how it read. O.o Sorry if I misread it. I think that there are things TLO does that other zergs should do. This doesnt mean hes better than said players with Zerg... To me it seems like the biggest problems for Zerg is being incapable of fighting off-creep (hydras and ultras are just useless once they get off creep), and there not being sufficient space for proper flanking on a lot of maps (or, even if there is a flank, the paths are still so small that a few force fields will turn the flank into nothing). TLOs mass infestor play is about the best way of stopping drops there is, and fungal allows ultras to actually fight off-creep. Keep in mind Im talking ZvT here, ZvP I dunno shit about except that it seems pretty annoying to play if you are Zerg. Burrowed infestors are also quite good at erasing SCV lines. Oh and there are better zergs out there than TLO right now, but there is nobody in the world who uses infestors better than him. Nobody. NOTE: All this being said doesnt mean that Zerg doesnt need changes made to them... Cuz they probably do. Hi, Jinro. Check out this replay, Cool playing infestors. http://sc2rep.com/replays/show/id/1400Cool is also aware that this unit exists and does all stuff that TLO does. But apparently its not viable in competitive level otherwise we would've seen it. I understand you were impressed with TLO's play (as we all did). TLO is also good at using ghosts but it doesn't work as we already know. So please, don't say that some gimmick play would have helped Cool.
Im not talking about going 1 hatch infestor, infact I specifically said thats is NOT what I meant.
Please understand that I am not saying TLO is better than Cool with Zerg, or that Zerg is somehow not in need of a patch - all that can be true and the ideas behind his play could STILL be valid to explore for other zergs.
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