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On September 24 2010 07:38 pookychoo wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Key factors why Zerg is underpowered:- Zerg cannot wall-in (even if you wasted resources for a row of spines the lack of ranged damage dealers to back up your wall makes it totally unviable.) - Zerg can't fight in chokes (again the lack of ranged damage dealers means chokes are zergs natural enemy, and without something like the defiler to help with that it amplifys the problem.) - Creep is a disadvantage (fighting off creep is a big disadvantage to Zerg, it also takes significant time and APM to spread creep, yet it can be destroyed very easily by the opponent. It is also a limiter on where you can build and also makes you very easily scouted) - Zerg AA is weak (Hydras come late leaving Z open to abuse. Hydras are slow off creep and are made of paper. Spore crawlers are not effective and uproot takes too long and is a poor tradeoff, would rather a permanant spore with better range/dmg.) - Zerg has less combat units, thus less options (Foregoing all workers, overlord/overseer/nydus for Z and observer / warp prism for P, because they are non combat and cant deal damage. The number combat units per race - T 12, P 12, Z 9 [10 if queen is counted]) - Zerg units lack utility without upgrades (e.g. zergling without speed upgrade, roach without speed or burrow, bane without speed, hydra without range, ultra without carapace. In contrast, marine/marauder/reaper/ghost/hellion/medivac/ still good with no upgrades, upgrades are just icing on the cake for terran) - Zerg t3 takes too long to reach (From the instant you make your first Spawning Pool, it takes 410 seconds minimum before you can start making an Ultralisk, assuming you go Straight for it, or 480 for Broodlords. Compared to the 235 for a Battlecruiser, or 260 for Carriers/Mothership, that's obscene. source) - Zerg does not have a unit that can deal damage from stealth (burrow)- Zerg does not have a unit that can use the cliff jump mechanic- Spawn larva is a blessing and a curse (Being able to bank larvae is great, but at the cost of having more APM required, requires queens which consume 2 supply ea. It is really more of a necessity than anything else, having units that are disposable and swarmy. Overall the mechanic is a disadvantage, macro is much easier from warpgates or rax/factories etc.) - Zerg scouting can easily be denied- Zerg units do not work well in 'critical mass', or as a ball. (Compared to T and P armies, Zerg has a weak army in critical mass, both T and P can get huge momentum going once they reach their critical mass. Zergs suffers from lack of good ranged damage and weak units. Choked terrain compounds this problem.) - Zerg can be punished for mistakes very easily. (Mainly due to lack of ability to wall-in or to use chokes defensively) - Corrupters and Infestors are less than good. (Even though fungal is decent, they're just not good units overall.) < OL drop deficiency ---> slower AND more useless than the dropships of T and P. It's all about the drops. The idea of Blizzard is to force nydus, but Zenio showed how perfect nydus only gets you so far, and still fails in the end...
Zerg is supposed to be the most mobile race, and now it really doesn't feel that way, upon comparison.
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For those of you who aren't good enough to play professional and play Zerg because it's your favorite race: If Zerg is truly underpowered and going to get an inevitable buff, why not just gut it out until Blizzard fixes it?
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addtion to cool's 2nd post:
"...(swear) 4 marauders can destroy my hatch but 10 ultra cant destroy a PF (hardcore swear)"
kinda sad that even cool is complaining about imbalance in z play 
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this actually gives me a lot of comfort reading this.
its been very obvious the way american and euro zergs feel towards Z and their matchups, but some "high priority community members" have claimed that zerg has been thriving in korea, without ever showing links or providing evidence. now seeing that upper tier players in korea feel the exact same way as everyone else really cements the fact that THE GAME IS NOT CURRENTLY BALANCED.
just hope that blizzard considers some of the great changes that have been provided by TL members and address the problems or units, not just build times :/
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On September 24 2010 07:39 Headshot wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2010 07:38 Dommk wrote:
Lead balance designer is David Kim, highest rated Random player on NA. I'm pretty sure David Kim came out and said that he's not Dayvie.
really??? i thought it was reverse and that was the phase 2 dayvie not retail (the phase 2 dayvie said he wasnt david kim)
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What's particularly sad, and slightly OT (sorry), is that this thread is almost a mirror of how American Societal politics work. "The Republican party says this is how I should vote, so I'm going to voice "my" opinion that that is how everyone should vote!" (not just targeting Republicans; Democrats do it too). It's really quite sad how many people in this world don't think for themselves, and rely on others to think for them.
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On September 24 2010 07:43 WoKKeLs wrote:
Lets just hope for blizzard to finaly realise that Zerg needs a buff instead of nerfing going on... not that they'll ever really buff something its sad that they want to safe up all cool stuff for Zerg for the expansion... alteast thats what we are expecting.
I have no doubt that in a few years time Starcraft 2 will be insanely more balanced than it is now. The thing which is concerns me is the amount of time it takes for Blizzard to take action, not to perfectly balance the game, but at least provide some credibility to the match ups.
Blizzard have tried to rush SC2 onto the competitive stage with things like the GSL, and that's going to backfire humiliatingly if they don't improve balance pretty soon. I can understand why patch 1.1 would be soft, but they can't afford to wait forever or they risk damaging the reputation of the competive scene with imbalance issues.
There's too much stuff in Starcraft 2 at the moemtn that still just feels a bit dumb, I say this not as a player QQing but as a spectator who wants to find each match up enjoyable, and certainly doesn't at the moment. TvT is by far (despite all the complaints) the most interesting and dynamic match up in SC2 at the moment, and I wish particularily Zerg had such a level of depth.
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On September 24 2010 07:48 MichaelJLowell wrote:
For those of you who aren't good enough to play professional and play Zerg because it's your favorite race: If Zerg is truly underpowered and going to get an inevitable buff, why not just gut it out until Blizzard fixes it?
I've been testing the waters, but I just like the Zerg playstyle more.
Terran and (Granted not as much) Protoss are just boring for me =s
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On September 24 2010 07:38 pookychoo wrote:This is what anyone with common sense has been saying since day 1, Zerg has less options, takes more APM and skill to play. Re Cools point about Medivacs. Maybe Medivac healing should be an upgrade. If Zerg has to upgrade units like roach, bane, hydra, ling, to make them viable, then so should Terran. Even Protoss has to do it to a lesser extent, e.g. Charge. Key factors why Zerg is underpowered:- Zerg cannot wall-in (even if you wasted resources for a row of spines the lack of ranged damage dealers to back up your wall makes it totally unviable.) - Zerg can't fight in chokes (again the lack of ranged damage dealers means chokes are zergs natural enemy, and without something like the defiler to help with that it amplifys the problem.) - Creep is a disadvantage (fighting off creep is a big disadvantage to Zerg, it also takes significant time and APM to spread creep, yet it can be destroyed very easily by the opponent. It is also a limiter on where you can build and also makes you very easily scouted) - Zerg AA is weak (Hydras come late leaving Z open to abuse. Hydras are slow off creep and are made of paper. Spore crawlers are not effective and uproot takes too long and is a poor tradeoff, would rather a permanant spore with better range/dmg.) - Zerg has less combat units, thus less options (Foregoing all workers, overlord/overseer/nydus for Z and observer / warp prism for P, because they are non combat and cant deal damage. The number combat units per race - T 12, P 12, Z 9 [10 if queen is counted]) - Zerg units lack utility without upgrades (e.g. zergling without speed upgrade, roach without speed or burrow, bane without speed, hydra without range, ultra without carapace. In contrast, marine/marauder/reaper/ghost/hellion/medivac/ still good with no upgrades, upgrades are just icing on the cake for terran) - Zerg t3 takes too long to reach (From the instant you make your first Spawning Pool, it takes 410 seconds minimum before you can start making an Ultralisk, assuming you go Straight for it, or 480 for Broodlords. Compared to the 235 for a Battlecruiser, or 260 for Carriers/Mothership, that's obscene. source) - Zerg does not have a unit that can deal damage from stealth (burrow)- Zerg does not have a unit that can use the cliff jump mechanic- Spawn larva is a blessing and a curse (Being able to bank larvae is great, but at the cost of having more APM required, requires queens which consume 2 supply ea. It is really more of a necessity than anything else, having units that are disposable and swarmy. Overall the mechanic is a disadvantage, macro is much easier from warpgates or rax/factories etc.) - Zerg scouting can easily be denied- Zerg units do not work well in 'critical mass', or as a ball. (Compared to T and P armies, Zerg has a weak army in critical mass, both T and P can get huge momentum going once they reach their critical mass. Zergs suffers from lack of good ranged damage and weak units. Choked terrain compounds this problem.) - Zerg can be punished for mistakes very easily. (Mainly due to lack of ability to wall-in or to use chokes defensively) - Corrupters and Infestors are less than good. (Even though fungal is decent, they're just not good units overall.) You may not agree on all of said points, but it is hard to argue with the overall view that Zerg needs adjustment. Especially when we have top Pros like Cool, Idra, Dimaga etc. complaining about it. Even Ret said it, pretty much a week after him getting started. And for disclosure I play random. I really think that Blizz has some cool stuff up their sleeves for HoTS, but they thought zerg would have faired a little better than it is currently doing, and probably hoped they could just buy time with some minor tweaks till then.
post this on the battle.net forums please
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Just saying, Terrans felt the same way about their race in BW until BoXer
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With "me" you mean you and your Terran buddies? Numbertweaking won't cut it this time. Zerg needs a huge early-midgame overhaul. More openings, more options. Nothing less!
I play Protoss. I also really enjoy playing Zerg, though I'm not very good at them. I've played as Terran one game since the game came out.
But I absolutely love how accusing someone of playing Terran has officially become a valid argument on these forums. Argumentum ad hominem is fun, no?
Honestly, what do you want, exactly? Given the units you have, I'd love to hear some ideas for what exactly it would mean to "give Zerg more options early/mid game"; so far, no one is offering them. I see why people say they want that, but I just don't see the obvious answer to it.
Honestly, I think that all Zerg need are a few changes to make each separate strat a bit more effective. Giving Infestor back a useable NP would be a big step in that direction. Making Zerglings and Roaches a bit more viable would help with that as well.
But I'm not seeing the necessity or the wisdom in a "massive overhaul" of Zerg. As best as I can tell, it doesn't even mean much of anything. Or if it does, no one's said what it does mean yet.
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Sweden33719 Posts
On September 24 2010 04:42 theqat wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2010 04:40 moopie wrote:On September 24 2010 04:34 SlowBlink wrote:
Also, people telling zergs to do more drop play should note that zerg drops cost 100 min + supply + 150/150 speed + 200/200 drop, Overlords don't have magical healing powers. Medivacs cost 100/100. You can see why this is not a viable option. I agree that zergs need more utility but this is an absurd point. Medivacs are 100/100 EACH. Overlords are 100/0 each. Drop+speed research is a 1 time thing. And yes sometimes you lose overlords (and thus supply) when you doom drop, welcome to BW, zergs still drop play all the time. A one-time thing that costs as much as the three Medivacs that could end the entire game for the Z and Overlords can't heal the units that pop out of them Sorry but Terran drops are overpowered, period
Without them, TvP would be broken Im pretty sure. Id rather buff zerg than nerf terran (or protoss, Im not sure what youd nerf with protoss that wouldnt hurt TvP).
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For one, I think that patch wasnt very helpful.
zealot nerf- good, but I would rather see the zerg get a defensive buff, than nerft the other two races.
reaper nerf- good, but same thing with the zealots
tank nerf- against toss, it doesnt matter since MMM+G is superior. Against zerg, it was an ok change, but no one uses hydras in TvZ so it wont help too much.
battlecruiser nerf- .... why was that guy nerfed? Corruptors destroyed BCs and so did hydras.
I would rather see buffs to zergs early game power (roaches, zerglings, queens, crawlers), than have blizz nerf all of the terran and protoss openings vs zerg (there are a lot).
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This is to yoplate, BCs were cost effective vs any land by a pretty large margin even hydras melted once you got more then 1 or 2.
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On September 24 2010 07:40 forgotten0ne wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2010 06:02 gozima wrote:
This isn't the BW era of gaming. If Blizz take their sweet time balancing Zerg, a lot of people will lose interest in SC2 as a game and E-Sport.
It's ridiculous for Blizz to wait until HoTS to fully flesh out Zerg because by that time, only a small fraction of people that bought SC2 will still be interested in the game.
Expansion packs have never expanded the audience of the original game, so if Blizz continue on their current path, SC2 will basically be dead by the time HoTS comes out. There are a lot ofposts in this thread, and despite this oje probably being the most random and off-topic, I still have to laugh at it. Seriously, even without the common knowledge that WoW's population almost doubles from where it stands pre-expansion, to expansion release, and that companies rely on expansions to bring back old players, as well as new advertising to bring in new players, the math itself should be obvious. 99% of the people currently playing the game will buy the expansion. Then you add on about 20% of the people that quit, coming back (that's conservative). Then add on more people that try the game for the first time for further hype. In the gaming world, a minimum 25% population increase is *huge*. So please, think about your claims before making them.
Aside from being a little hyperbolic in regard to my last sentence, there are obviously going to be exceptions to the rule.
WoW isn't a fair comparison, as it's a completely different type of game and also has a completely different business model as most conventional games like SC2.
As for your contention that expansion packs expand a games audience, do you even follow game sales information through NPD and other sources? When was the last time a games expansion pack or equivalent sold half as many copies as the original?
On September 24 2010 07:40 forgotten0ne wrote:"99% of the people currently playing the game will buy the expansion."
LOL
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great....models for a thousand times more QQ threads.
I was expecting some zerg love from 1.1. We just can't deny Zergs are in a bad shape in comparison to the 2 other races.
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it's just another idra/dimaga/sheth style "i'm going to change race but actually don't because zerg is by far my best even if it is the worst race in the game" scenario.
and if it's not, i wonder if 1.1 will change his mind.
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On September 24 2010 07:52 Captain Peabody wrote:
Given the units you have, I'd love to hear some ideas for what exactly it would mean to "give Zerg more options early/mid game"; so far, no one is offering them.
...
But I'm not seeing the necessity or the wisdom in a "massive overhaul" of Zerg.
No one is (can) giving you any suggestions for how to fix things with the current units, but you don't see why they need a larger overhaul?
Not that they necessarily do, I'm just not following the logic of that post
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On September 24 2010 07:39 Headshot wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2010 07:38 Dommk wrote:
Lead balance designer is David Kim, highest rated Random player on NA. I'm pretty sure David Kim came out and said that he's not Dayvie.
Source?
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Russian Federation82 Posts
guys lets not be too hasty
blizz did a great job balancing WoW (at one point Rogues had sub par DPS)
and looking at games like Warcraft when they added in neutral heroes like Firelord and Alchemist it just made the game balanced, mb blizz will do the same for SC2
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EPT
