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On September 24 2010 07:19 awesomoecalypse wrote:Blizz needs to start buffing Zerg. They can make incremental changes if they want to, for example, "In this patch we're increasing the rate at which tumors spread creep by 30%, increasing overlord speed by 20%, and increasing Roach burrowed regen." Then see what that does. if its not enough, buff a bit more. But they need to start the process. Even if they don't get it right immediately, it would do something even more valuable: give Zerg players hope. The race cannot afford a mass exodus by the top players. Even if it isn't balanced immediately, if Zerg players have reason to believe that Blizzard will take steps to get it there, they are much less likely to switch races.
I agree, they need to start to process of buffing z slightly, but faster. Do couple small changes, but dont wait fucking two months each time. In ESPORT years two months is 8 years or two olympics Theres tournaments everyday, and huuuuge tournaments every month.
Watching these tournaments is boring as fuck without zerg in them. When TvT or PvP comes up, I just turn it off streight away.
I think if you nerf the marauder and stalker at the same time, it would not mess with TvP and it would help both ZvT and ZvP. Zerglings are supposed to counter stalkers, yet they dont. 160 hp on stalkers are way too much for a 2 supply unit. Not even the roach tank has that much hp, not to mention they can regenerate half of it very fast. So if you do one attack that only damages alot of them, you are suddently waay behind.
This is only one change, that they could test out. I dont mind small changes aslong as they are coming pretty fast until the game feels right. But using a month to say what changes they are gonna make, then use another month to implement those exact changes is so dumb, and im starting to think i gave blizzard way to much credit.
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On September 24 2010 07:49 forgotten0ne wrote:
What's particularly sad, and slightly OT (sorry), is that this thread is almost a mirror of how American Societal politics work. "The Republican party says this is how I should vote, so I'm going to voice "my" opinion that that is how everyone should vote!" (not just targeting Republicans; Democrats do it too). It's really quite sad how many people in this world don't think for themselves, and rely on others to think for them.
Actually people have been complaining about zerg being underpowered since beta. It's not just zerg players saying this, even some terran and protoss players say zerg is underpowered. And it's not just people saying zerg is underpowered, the "tournaments won" list also provides hard evidence that zerg is underpowered. Now we have Cool, Zenio, CheckPrime, JulyZerg, and Idra saying Zerg is underpowered, these are undeniably the best SC2 zerg players in the world right now. How much more evidence do you need to accept that zerg is underpowered?
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Key factors why Zerg is underpowered:
- Zerg cannot wall-in (even if you wasted resources for a row of spines the lack of ranged damage dealers to back up your wall makes it totally unviable.)
- Zerg can't fight in chokes (again the lack of ranged damage dealers means chokes are zergs natural enemy, and without something like the defiler to help with that it amplifys the problem.)
- Creep is a disadvantage (fighting off creep is a big disadvantage to Zerg, it also takes significant time and APM to spread creep, yet it can be destroyed very easily by the opponent. It is also a limiter on where you can build and also makes you very easily scouted)
- Zerg AA is weak (Hydras come late leaving Z open to abuse. Hydras are slow off creep and are made of paper. Spore crawlers are not effective and uproot takes too long and is a poor tradeoff, would rather a permanant spore with better range/dmg.)
- Zerg has less combat units, thus less options (Foregoing all workers, overlord/overseer/nydus for Z and observer / warp prism for P, because they are non combat and cant deal damage. The number combat units per race - T 12, P 12, Z 9 [10 if queen is counted])
- Zerg units lack utility without upgrades (e.g. zergling without speed upgrade, roach without speed or burrow, bane without speed, hydra without range, ultra without carapace. In contrast, marine/marauder/reaper/ghost/hellion/medivac/ still good with no upgrades, upgrades are just icing on the cake for terran)
- Zerg t3 takes too long to reach (From the instant you make your first Spawning Pool, it takes 410 seconds minimum before you can start making an Ultralisk, assuming you go Straight for it, or 480 for Broodlords. Compared to the 235 for a Battlecruiser, or 260 for Carriers/Mothership, that's obscene. source)
- Zerg does not have a unit that can deal damage from stealth (burrow)
- Zerg does not have a unit that can use the cliff jump mechanic
- Spawn larva is a blessing and a curse (Being able to bank larvae is great, but at the cost of having more APM required, requires queens which consume 2 supply ea. It is really more of a necessity than anything else, having units that are disposable and swarmy. Overall the mechanic is a disadvantage, macro is much easier from warpgates or rax/factories etc.)
- Zerg scouting can easily be denied
- Zerg units do not work well in 'critical mass', or as a ball. (Compared to T and P armies, Zerg has a weak army in critical mass, both T and P can get huge momentum going once they reach their critical mass. Zergs suffers from lack of good ranged damage and weak units. Choked terrain compounds this problem.)
- Zerg can be punished for mistakes very easily. (Mainly due to lack of ability to wall-in or to use chokes defensively)
- Corrupters and Infestors are less than good. (Even though fungal is decent, they're just not good units overall.)
Not how game balance works.
You just stated why zerg was different.
Would "Protoss is weak because they have no t1 scout" be a valid proof of the claim?
No. They just shows how protoss is different. It is a statement of a (Incredibly obvious) fact.
You need to highlight the relationships that show why these are problematic.
Maybe blizzard intended zerg to have those defining characteristics. Are you saying that every race is intended to be equally good at everything? How the fuck did nobody notice that "Zerg does not have a unit that deals damage by stealth"? Do you think that was an accident? Not, it was a design.
You need to open your mind on how game balance works to make proper commentary. Highlight relationships that support a conclusion, not facts.
Here is an example.
For instance "Zerg is underpowered because they cannot adequately prepare to the multitude of terran openers, which allow terran to start midgame with a econ advantage that zerg cannot recover from" would be a better valid statement, instead of "Zerg is underpowered because poor t1 scouting". One implies that the only way to fix this is to buff zerg T1 scouting. The other highligts a multifaceted relationship. Which could fixed in a multitude of ways, ranging from buffing zerg midgame advantage, nerfing terran econ, lowering viable terran openers, increasing zerg defense flexibility, or indeed, buffing zerg t1 scouting. Each which would shift the game towards a different direction.
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On September 24 2010 07:58 JamieDukes wrote:
blizz did a great job balancing WoW (at one point Rogues had sub par DPS)
WoW Balance is horrible to compare to.
In SC there are 3 races.
In WoW there are 9 or 10 classes.
In SC there is a fairly limited number of spells
In WoW there are TONS.
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On September 24 2010 07:57 universalwill wrote:
it's just another idra/dimaga/sheth style "i'm going to change race but actually don't because zerg is by far my best even if it is the worst race in the game" scenario.
and if it's not, i wonder if 1.1 will change his mind.
Cool was a very high ranked Random player. His Terran and Protoss aren't bad.
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On September 24 2010 07:38 pookychoo wrote:This is what anyone with common sense has been saying since day 1, Zerg has less options, takes more APM and skill to play. Re Cools point about Medivacs. Maybe Medivac healing should be an upgrade. If Zerg has to upgrade units like roach, bane, hydra, ling, to make them viable, then so should Terran. Even Protoss has to do it to a lesser extent, e.g. Charge. Key factors why Zerg is underpowered:- Zerg cannot wall-in (even if you wasted resources for a row of spines the lack of ranged damage dealers to back up your wall makes it totally unviable.) - Zerg can't fight in chokes (again the lack of ranged damage dealers means chokes are zergs natural enemy, and without something like the defiler to help with that it amplifys the problem.) - Creep is a disadvantage (fighting off creep is a big disadvantage to Zerg, it also takes significant time and APM to spread creep, yet it can be destroyed very easily by the opponent. It is also a limiter on where you can build and also makes you very easily scouted) - Zerg AA is weak (Hydras come late leaving Z open to abuse. Hydras are slow off creep and are made of paper. Spore crawlers are not effective and uproot takes too long and is a poor tradeoff, would rather a permanant spore with better range/dmg.) - Zerg has less combat units, thus less options (Foregoing all workers, overlord/overseer/nydus for Z and observer / warp prism for P, because they are non combat and cant deal damage. The number combat units per race - T 12, P 12, Z 9 [10 if queen is counted]) - Zerg units lack utility without upgrades (e.g. zergling without speed upgrade, roach without speed or burrow, bane without speed, hydra without range, ultra without carapace. In contrast, marine/marauder/reaper/ghost/hellion/medivac/ still good with no upgrades, upgrades are just icing on the cake for terran) - Zerg t3 takes too long to reach (From the instant you make your first Spawning Pool, it takes 410 seconds minimum before you can start making an Ultralisk, assuming you go Straight for it, or 480 for Broodlords. Compared to the 235 for a Battlecruiser, or 260 for Carriers/Mothership, that's obscene. source) - Zerg does not have a unit that can deal damage from stealth (burrow)- Zerg does not have a unit that can use the cliff jump mechanic- Spawn larva is a blessing and a curse (Being able to bank larvae is great, but at the cost of having more APM required, requires queens which consume 2 supply ea. It is really more of a necessity than anything else, having units that are disposable and swarmy. Overall the mechanic is a disadvantage, macro is much easier from warpgates or rax/factories etc.) - Zerg scouting can easily be denied- Zerg units do not work well in 'critical mass', or as a ball. (Compared to T and P armies, Zerg has a weak army in critical mass, both T and P can get huge momentum going once they reach their critical mass. Zergs suffers from lack of good ranged damage and weak units. Choked terrain compounds this problem.) - Zerg can be punished for mistakes very easily. (Mainly due to lack of ability to wall-in or to use chokes defensively) - Corrupters and Infestors are less than good. (Even though fungal is decent, they're just not good units overall.) You may not agree on all of said points, but it is hard to argue with the overall view that Zerg needs adjustment. Especially when we have top Pros like Cool, Idra, Dimaga etc. complaining about it. Even Ret said it, pretty much a week after him getting started. And for disclosure I play random. I really think that Blizz has some cool stuff up their sleeves for HoTS, but they thought zerg would have faired a little better than it is currently doing, and probably hoped they could just buy time with some minor tweaks till then.
Some of the points I don't agree with:
Zerg not being able to block is nothing bad, they couldn't block in bw. If they were able to block, then there would be 3 races blocking their ramp and turtling. Also, i don't know how you're going to use a hatchery (300 mins) spawning pool and roach den to block your natural for your expansion?
Zerg can't fight in chokes- well yeah. they got a big army that swarms, that's the way zerg is played. A better point would be Zerg has no units which fight well in chokes.
Zerg has less units- easier to mass their units. More units wouldn't necessarily be better..
Zerg has bad anti air- make more queens and mutas.
Zerg has no cliff jumping units, deal damage from stealth- yeah, well that's zerg. a swarming army (which gets beaten by other races 200/200 armies). Besides, only lurker in BW was a 'stealth' attacking unit. And mutas are far better than cliff jumping.
Other than that, your other points are spot on.
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Maybe a reeeeallllly stupid question but where does it say that cool,checkprime and zenio are switching races? All i read is a lot of swear about how bad the race is and that's perfectly fine by me when there is a lot of cash at stake. But are these race-switching stories just made up? I cannot see those claims anywhere or I must be blind.
step 1: Zenio, cool and possibly check (I doubt it) say there are very unhappy with zerg
step 2: Cool is angry at forums, raging actually and yeh thats ok :D
step 3: People read it and make topics that they are switching races !!!!
step 4: ZENIO COOL AND CHECKPRIME ARE SWITCHING RACES!!!! OMG BUFF!
Zenio dropping from the tournament was kinda his own fault and cannot be blamed due to imbalances since he kinda ruined it for himself (too bad though  ) but I can understand he is pissed and needs something to blame when you see all that money flying away from you. I doubt that he will be doing better with terran though 
However, I do agree that zerg can be a pain to play with (I am protoss main) and if I ever have to add something to zerg it would be:
- Scourge : nice for scouting, nice for dropship, nice for colossi
- Hydralisk speed upgrade - just get it in the game already
Well thats it :D
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On September 24 2010 08:03 Flummie wrote:
Maybe a reeeeallllly stupid question but where does it say that cool,checkprime and zenio are switching races?
No one suggested that Check and Zenio are switching races, but the first quote of Cool's in the OP says "To hell if I play Zerg in GSL2".
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On September 24 2010 08:01 Half wrote:Show nested quote +
Key factors why Zerg is underpowered:
- Zerg cannot wall-in (even if you wasted resources for a row of spines the lack of ranged damage dealers to back up your wall makes it totally unviable.)
- Zerg can't fight in chokes (again the lack of ranged damage dealers means chokes are zergs natural enemy, and without something like the defiler to help with that it amplifys the problem.)
- Creep is a disadvantage (fighting off creep is a big disadvantage to Zerg, it also takes significant time and APM to spread creep, yet it can be destroyed very easily by the opponent. It is also a limiter on where you can build and also makes you very easily scouted)
- Zerg AA is weak (Hydras come late leaving Z open to abuse. Hydras are slow off creep and are made of paper. Spore crawlers are not effective and uproot takes too long and is a poor tradeoff, would rather a permanant spore with better range/dmg.)
- Zerg has less combat units, thus less options (Foregoing all workers, overlord/overseer/nydus for Z and observer / warp prism for P, because they are non combat and cant deal damage. The number combat units per race - T 12, P 12, Z 9 [10 if queen is counted])
- Zerg units lack utility without upgrades (e.g. zergling without speed upgrade, roach without speed or burrow, bane without speed, hydra without range, ultra without carapace. In contrast, marine/marauder/reaper/ghost/hellion/medivac/ still good with no upgrades, upgrades are just icing on the cake for terran)
- Zerg t3 takes too long to reach (From the instant you make your first Spawning Pool, it takes 410 seconds minimum before you can start making an Ultralisk, assuming you go Straight for it, or 480 for Broodlords. Compared to the 235 for a Battlecruiser, or 260 for Carriers/Mothership, that's obscene. source)
- Zerg does not have a unit that can deal damage from stealth (burrow)
- Zerg does not have a unit that can use the cliff jump mechanic
- Spawn larva is a blessing and a curse (Being able to bank larvae is great, but at the cost of having more APM required, requires queens which consume 2 supply ea. It is really more of a necessity than anything else, having units that are disposable and swarmy. Overall the mechanic is a disadvantage, macro is much easier from warpgates or rax/factories etc.)
- Zerg scouting can easily be denied
- Zerg units do not work well in 'critical mass', or as a ball. (Compared to T and P armies, Zerg has a weak army in critical mass, both T and P can get huge momentum going once they reach their critical mass. Zergs suffers from lack of good ranged damage and weak units. Choked terrain compounds this problem.)
- Zerg can be punished for mistakes very easily. (Mainly due to lack of ability to wall-in or to use chokes defensively)
- Corrupters and Infestors are less than good. (Even though fungal is decent, they're just not good units overall.)
Not how game balance works. You just stated why zerg was different.
I agree, the problem is that what he listed are definitely things that make Zerg different but at the same time pose a disadvantage, no way how else you put it, or look at it.
That would be fine in itself, the problem is that Zerg has no advantages to speak of to compensate these weaknesses.
If we were to remove all Terran t1 and t1.5 units and only give them the ability to wall in until they've reached t2 and then start to build units, what you're saying is that that wouldn't be a disadvantage, it would just be Terran "being different". And that's just bs
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On September 24 2010 07:38 pookychoo wrote:This is what anyone with common sense has been saying since day 1, Zerg has less options, takes more APM and skill to play. Re Cools point about Medivacs. Maybe Medivac healing should be an upgrade. If Zerg has to upgrade units like roach, bane, hydra, ling, to make them viable, then so should Terran. Even Protoss has to do it to a lesser extent, e.g. Charge. Key factors why Zerg is underpowered:- Zerg cannot wall-in (even if you wasted resources for a row of spines the lack of ranged damage dealers to back up your wall makes it totally unviable.) - Zerg can't fight in chokes (again the lack of ranged damage dealers means chokes are zergs natural enemy, and without something like the defiler to help with that it amplifys the problem.) - Creep is a disadvantage (fighting off creep is a big disadvantage to Zerg, it also takes significant time and APM to spread creep, yet it can be destroyed very easily by the opponent. It is also a limiter on where you can build and also makes you very easily scouted) - Zerg AA is weak (Hydras come late leaving Z open to abuse. Hydras are slow off creep and are made of paper. Spore crawlers are not effective and uproot takes too long and is a poor tradeoff, would rather a permanant spore with better range/dmg.) - Zerg has less combat units, thus less options (Foregoing all workers, overlord/overseer/nydus for Z and observer / warp prism for P, because they are non combat and cant deal damage. The number combat units per race - T 12, P 12, Z 9 [10 if queen is counted]) - Zerg units lack utility without upgrades (e.g. zergling without speed upgrade, roach without speed or burrow, bane without speed, hydra without range, ultra without carapace. In contrast, marine/marauder/reaper/ghost/hellion/medivac/ still good with no upgrades, upgrades are just icing on the cake for terran) - Zerg t3 takes too long to reach (From the instant you make your first Spawning Pool, it takes 410 seconds minimum before you can start making an Ultralisk, assuming you go Straight for it, or 480 for Broodlords. Compared to the 235 for a Battlecruiser, or 260 for Carriers/Mothership, that's obscene. source) - Zerg does not have a unit that can deal damage from stealth (burrow)- Zerg does not have a unit that can use the cliff jump mechanic- Spawn larva is a blessing and a curse (Being able to bank larvae is great, but at the cost of having more APM required, requires queens which consume 2 supply ea. It is really more of a necessity than anything else, having units that are disposable and swarmy. Overall the mechanic is a disadvantage, macro is much easier from warpgates or rax/factories etc.) - Zerg scouting can easily be denied- Zerg units do not work well in 'critical mass', or as a ball. (Compared to T and P armies, Zerg has a weak army in critical mass, both T and P can get huge momentum going once they reach their critical mass. Zergs suffers from lack of good ranged damage and weak units. Choked terrain compounds this problem.) - Zerg can be punished for mistakes very easily. (Mainly due to lack of ability to wall-in or to use chokes defensively) - Corrupters and Infestors are less than good. (Even though fungal is decent, they're just not good units overall.) You may not agree on all of said points, but it is hard to argue with the overall view that Zerg needs adjustment. Especially when we have top Pros like Cool, Idra, Dimaga etc. complaining about it. Even Ret said it, pretty much a week after him getting started. And for disclosure I play random. I really think that Blizz has some cool stuff up their sleeves for HoTS, but they thought zerg would have faired a little better than it is currently doing, and probably hoped they could just buy time with some minor tweaks till then.
Yes. Please post it to Blizzard forum and tell us how fast they delete it.
I agree with this statement very much: "This is what anyone with common sense has been saying since day 1, Zerg has less options, takes more APM and skill to play."
Watching Zerg plays, it's really ridiculous the level of skill required to win a game. And it's disheartening to spectate how easy a Terran can win against the other races, especially Zerg.
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Hell, its about time, to switch race!
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No one is (can) giving you any suggestions for how to fix things with the current units, but you don't see why they need a larger overhaul?
Not that they necessarily do, I'm just not following the logic of that post
Adding units is something that can only really be done in an expansion. It would totally change the flow of all Zerg matchups, and require an almost total re balancing of the game.
People right now are demanding massive changes to Zerg early/mid game, and they're demanding them now, before the expansion. They're saying that some massive overhaul is necessary for Zerg to be balanced.
I'm saying that no one seems to have any idea what such a massive overhaul, one that is capable of being given in patches and so does not involve actually adding units, would look like, and how exactly it would address the problems Zergs have. I'm also saying that I see no reason why such a massive overhaul is necessary for Zerg to be balanced.
Does that make more sense?
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You can't compare an RPG to an RTS.
Watch the end of the Cool vs Nextaeja game on Lost Temple. Cool outplayed him every second of the game and when they show the players after the game Cool looks exhausted, frustrated and upset even though he won.
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On September 24 2010 08:02 toadstool wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2010 07:38 pookychoo wrote:This is what anyone with common sense has been saying since day 1, Zerg has less options, takes more APM and skill to play. Re Cools point about Medivacs. Maybe Medivac healing should be an upgrade. If Zerg has to upgrade units like roach, bane, hydra, ling, to make them viable, then so should Terran. Even Protoss has to do it to a lesser extent, e.g. Charge. Key factors why Zerg is underpowered:- Zerg cannot wall-in (even if you wasted resources for a row of spines the lack of ranged damage dealers to back up your wall makes it totally unviable.) - Zerg can't fight in chokes (again the lack of ranged damage dealers means chokes are zergs natural enemy, and without something like the defiler to help with that it amplifys the problem.) - Creep is a disadvantage (fighting off creep is a big disadvantage to Zerg, it also takes significant time and APM to spread creep, yet it can be destroyed very easily by the opponent. It is also a limiter on where you can build and also makes you very easily scouted) - Zerg AA is weak (Hydras come late leaving Z open to abuse. Hydras are slow off creep and are made of paper. Spore crawlers are not effective and uproot takes too long and is a poor tradeoff, would rather a permanant spore with better range/dmg.) - Zerg has less combat units, thus less options (Foregoing all workers, overlord/overseer/nydus for Z and observer / warp prism for P, because they are non combat and cant deal damage. The number combat units per race - T 12, P 12, Z 9 [10 if queen is counted]) - Zerg units lack utility without upgrades (e.g. zergling without speed upgrade, roach without speed or burrow, bane without speed, hydra without range, ultra without carapace. In contrast, marine/marauder/reaper/ghost/hellion/medivac/ still good with no upgrades, upgrades are just icing on the cake for terran) - Zerg t3 takes too long to reach (From the instant you make your first Spawning Pool, it takes 410 seconds minimum before you can start making an Ultralisk, assuming you go Straight for it, or 480 for Broodlords. Compared to the 235 for a Battlecruiser, or 260 for Carriers/Mothership, that's obscene. source) - Zerg does not have a unit that can deal damage from stealth (burrow)- Zerg does not have a unit that can use the cliff jump mechanic- Spawn larva is a blessing and a curse (Being able to bank larvae is great, but at the cost of having more APM required, requires queens which consume 2 supply ea. It is really more of a necessity than anything else, having units that are disposable and swarmy. Overall the mechanic is a disadvantage, macro is much easier from warpgates or rax/factories etc.) - Zerg scouting can easily be denied- Zerg units do not work well in 'critical mass', or as a ball. (Compared to T and P armies, Zerg has a weak army in critical mass, both T and P can get huge momentum going once they reach their critical mass. Zergs suffers from lack of good ranged damage and weak units. Choked terrain compounds this problem.) - Zerg can be punished for mistakes very easily. (Mainly due to lack of ability to wall-in or to use chokes defensively) - Corrupters and Infestors are less than good. (Even though fungal is decent, they're just not good units overall.) You may not agree on all of said points, but it is hard to argue with the overall view that Zerg needs adjustment. Especially when we have top Pros like Cool, Idra, Dimaga etc. complaining about it. Even Ret said it, pretty much a week after him getting started. And for disclosure I play random. I really think that Blizz has some cool stuff up their sleeves for HoTS, but they thought zerg would have faired a little better than it is currently doing, and probably hoped they could just buy time with some minor tweaks till then. Some of the points I don't agree with: Zerg not being able to block is nothing bad, they couldn't block in bw. If they were able to block, then there would be 3 races blocking their ramp and turtling. Also, i don't know how you're going to use a hatchery (300 mins) spawning pool and roach den to block your natural for your expansion? Zerg can't fight in chokes- well yeah. they got a big army that swarms, that's the way zerg is played. A better point would be Zerg has no units which fight well in chokes. Zerg has less units- easier to mass their units. More units wouldn't necessarily be better.. Zerg has bad anti air- make more queens and mutas. Zerg has no cliff jumping units, deal damage from stealth- yeah, well that's zerg. a swarming army (which gets beaten by other races 200/200 armies). Besides, only lurker in BW was a 'stealth' attacking unit. And mutas are far better than cliff jumping. Other than that, your other points are spot on.
lurkers, later with swarm, were very good blocker
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On September 24 2010 07:58 JamieDukes wrote:
guys lets not be too hasty
blizz did a great job balancing WoW (at one point Rogues had sub par DPS)
and looking at games like Warcraft when they added in neutral heroes like Firelord and Alchemist it just made the game balanced, mb blizz will do the same for SC2
WoW (and I must assume you're talking about the arena multiplayer aspect of the game) is balanced? Dude...baaah. Why do you even say something like that without setting it up as an obvious joke? :S
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No one is (can) giving you any suggestions for how to fix things with the current units, but you don't see why they need a larger overhaul?
No, all I see is a shallow understanding of game design -_-.
Seriously, for me, a "Large overhaul" is like the roach change. Thats a HUGE overhaul. It completely changed every single element of the zerg race in every matchup.
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I feel like I shouldn't have to say that unless you, yourself are attempting to implement ideas through the editor, and test different balance suggestions daily to see what's going to work or not. Then you probably shouldn't judge Blizzards ability to balance and patch games.
Unless you have the knowledge firsthand(like some pros do not) of exactly how the units behave at specific timings, and can apply critical knowledge of how they would behave if tweaked slightly one way or the other, then you can never know how hard or easy it is to balance the game, and therefore would only seem pretentious in asserting that blizzard is being too slow(or fast) at patching or somehow going about balancing the game in the wrong way.
Wow that was a mouthful.
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To be honest, I don't think buffing Zerg or nerfing Terran/Protoss will fix it now. If they have 2 years, it would be a good idea to have a separate team experimenting with complete redesign of the multiplayer balance, from the ground up. They've obviously tried to fix and improve some things from BW, but they couldn't predict all the complications. That's alright. Now they got more input; time to step back again and rethink.
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On September 24 2010 08:06 Captain Peabody wrote:Show nested quote +No one is (can) giving you any suggestions for how to fix things with the current units, but you don't see why they need a larger overhaul?
Not that they necessarily do, I'm just not following the logic of that post Adding units is something that can only really be done in an expansion. It would totally change the flow of all Zerg matchups, and require an almost total re balancing of the game. People right now are demanding massive changes to Zerg early/mid game, and they're demanding them now, before the expansion. They're saying that some massive overhaul is necessary for Zerg to be balanced. I'm saying that no one seems to have any idea what such a massive overhaul, one that is capable of being given in patches and so does not involve actually adding units, would look like, and how exactly it would address the problems Zergs have. I'm also saying that I see no reason why such a massive overhaul is necessary for Zerg to be balanced. Does that make more sense?
Blizzard is the one that put them self in this position, if they had done a better job before releasing it wouldn't be this bad. There is no reason any player should suffer from their lack of preparation for general game balance.
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On September 24 2010 08:01 Pekkz wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2010 07:19 awesomoecalypse wrote:First of all PvT is no picnic. Blizz needs to start buffing Zerg. They can make incremental changes if they want to, for example, "In this patch we're increasing the rate at which tumors spread creep by 30%, increasing overlord speed by 20%, and increasing Roach burrowed regen." Then see what that does. if its not enough, buff a bit more. But they need to start the process. Even if they don't get it right immediately, it would do something even more valuable: give Zerg players hope. The race cannot afford a mass exodus by the top players. Even if it isn't balanced immediately, if Zerg players have reason to believe that Blizzard will take steps to get it there, they are much less likely to switch races. I agree, they need to start to process of buffing z slightly, but faster. Do couple small changes, but dont wait fucking two months each time. In ESPORT years two months is 8 years or two olympics Theres tournaments everyday, and huuuuge tournaments every month. Watching these tournaments is boring as fuck without zerg in them. When TvT or PvP comes up, I just turn it off streight away. I think if you nerf the marauder and stalker at the same time, it would not mess with TvP and it would help both ZvT and ZvP. Zerglings are supposed to counter stalkers, yet they dont. 160 hp on stalkers are way too much for a 2 supply unit. Not even the roach tank has that much hp, not to mention they can regenerate half of it very fast. So if you do one attack that only damages alot of them, you are suddently waay behind. This is only one change, that they could test out. I dont mind small changes aslong as they are coming pretty fast until the game feels right. But using a month to say what changes they are gonna make, then use another month to implement those exact changes is so dumb, and im starting to think i gave blizzard way to much credit.
Ehhhh im all for buffing zerg but please dont nerf the stalker : / its such a cool unit! we need more such, not less.
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EPT
