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On September 24 2010 08:16 Pulimuli wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2010 08:14 Seam wrote:On September 24 2010 08:13 Carras wrote: You CANT have a bad army at critical mass... becouse it wouldnt be critical mass then..
now tell me.... wich is the race, that has cheaper expansions ? and heavy gas units to combine!? and.. in TvZ .. what happens if both 200 armies wipe out each other ? zerg just rebuilds in one cycle.. terran.. well, gg.. When will a 200/200 T vs 200/200 Z army cancel eachother out? They wont, the reason for that is because Zerg can produce an assload of units much faster than Terran can. I believe that was his point.
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On September 24 2010 08:16 hadoken5 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2010 02:13 Odds wrote: This is really sad- FruitSeller is one of my favorite players to watch. Hopefully Blizzard is paying attention. The sad thing is that Blizzard said they aren't balancing the game around tournaments. Source?
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Whenever zerg lose a game like this I like to ask myself "Would Lurkers have changed this game?"
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On September 24 2010 02:11 Triscuit wrote:He better not. Cool is my hero.  .
if he does i don't i'm gona QQ hard!! Hes the funnest zerg player out there!! and i think the best.... next to idra of course :D
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On September 24 2010 07:38 pookychoo wrote:- Zerg t3 takes too long to reach (From the instant you make your first Spawning Pool, it takes 410 seconds minimum before you can start making an Ultralisk, assuming you go Straight for it, or 480 for Broodlords. Compared to the 235 for a Battlecruiser, or 260 for Carriers/Mothership, that's obscene. source)
This just blew my mind. It allways felt long, but for the love of pete, thats a really friggin long tech path.
Not to mention you have to protect your 3 bases the entire time you are teching for it. Then after you can make ultra , you still gotta upgrade at ultralisk cavern.
Today I tried getting ultralisk out pretty fast in a ZvP. I went roach hydra, then started teching, and i got out three ultralisk from 3 bases before he attacked me. They both died instantly to alot of charge lots+stalker with few collosus I think they got off like 3 attacks on the zealots before they all where dead haha
I just thought for myself after that game, never will I bother making them again.
You basicly need to be in huuuge lead to be able to tech up and get them without getting punished.
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Because the expansion is 18 months away and I don't want to put up with this for another 18 months? All the play issues aside, it'll be pitiful not to have Z in a tournament because no one wants to handicap themselves.
My entire point is that I don't see any reason why a massive, expansion-level overhaul is necessary for Zerg to be balanced. Smaller changes will do just fine.
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It's a sad drama that there is an such obviously imbalance, but Blizzard will do nothing, because they have a 50% 50% 50% statistic ...
You never will feel the imbalance until you play Diamond 1k+
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On September 24 2010 02:11 Omigawa wrote: Except a lot of TvT from now on I guess
Ugh theres already enough TvT as it is.
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On September 24 2010 08:18 TT1 wrote: z is a sick race, its not that its a weak race its just that its been stereotyped as the weakest race so no one is willing to play it.. that being said(i know that this getting old) but T is seriously too strong, i can feel it while im playing
imo these are the main changes that need to happen: 1) concusive shell need a cooldown(this is more TvP related) 2) mules need to have a shorter life spawn 3) banshee attack needs to be weakened 4) medivak drops need to be weakened(by either reducing the number of units that it can carry or by nerfing the marauder damage vs armored units/buildings)
I agree with you when you say zerg is a sick race; I also agree with your main changes list... I love playing zerg, but I think that, with the original post plus Cool and Zenios words, it's more of the race being weak and so people aren't willing to play it. In the case of the the korean zergs, they are willing to play it, but since it's so weak right now, they have half a mind to leave for another race.
Going back to Cool's and Zenio's thoughts, I think it's past the whole "players just don't give the race a chance". In fact, a lot of higher ranked zergs have played more matches! It really just boils to how patient people will be when Blizzard makes their changes. Otherwise, it'll be only protoss and terrans laddering seriously.
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On September 24 2010 08:18 TT1 wrote: z is a sick race, its not that its a weak race its just that its been stereotyped as the weakest race so no one is willing to play it.. that being said(i know that this getting old) but T is seriously too strong, i can feel it while im playing
imo these are the main changes that need to happen: 1) concusive shell need a cooldown(this is more TvP related) 2) mules need to have a shorter life spawn 3) banshee attack needs to be weakened 4) medivak drops need to be weakened(by either reducing the number of units that it can carry or by nerfing the marauder damage vs armored units/buildings) u mean noone as in ex-progamers Wind, Cool, Zergbong, Junwi and Julyzerg? yea youre right.
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On September 24 2010 08:24 Captain Peabody wrote:Show nested quote +Because the expansion is 18 months away and I don't want to put up with this for another 18 months? All the play issues aside, it'll be pitiful not to have Z in a tournament because no one wants to handicap themselves. My entire point is that I don't see any reason why a massive, expansion-level overhaul is necessary for Zerg to be balanced. Smaller changes will do just fine. That is as much an assumption as the people claiming that a massive overhaul is necessary, actually? How do you know that will be all that's needed?
My point was more that Blizzard needs drastic action to restore the faith of its players and actually get people to play Z, should they care about the esports part of the picture. If focused solely on the balance of the game, it should release smaller and more calculated changes over a longer period of time.
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On September 24 2010 08:02 toadstool wrote:
Zerg has less units- easier to mass their units. More units wouldn't necessarily be better..
Zerg has bad anti air- make more queens and mutas.
Zerg has no cliff jumping units, deal damage from stealth- yeah, well that's zerg. a swarming army (which gets beaten by other races 200/200 armies). Besides, only lurker in BW was a 'stealth' attacking unit. And mutas are far better than cliff jumping.
Other than that, your other points are spot on.
I don't know how having less unit choices makes it easier to mass their units but either way that point is made irrelevant by how weak zerg's massable armies are compared to the compositions Protoss and Terran can come up with.
Make more queens and mutas? You do realize you can't tech while making queens right, and that queens are horribly slow? I hope you also realize how gas expensive mutas are. 4 mutas are 400 gas, and that's on top of the already gas expensive lair and spire tech. In comparison vikings only cost 75 and will stomp mutas at equal supply counts due to their superior range of 9 vs muta's 3.
Terran got banshees in SC2, which some people call the flying DT. Zerg lost their only stealth attacking unit. Sounds fair? As for it being okay that zerg is the only race that does not have cliff jumping units because zerg is a swarming race, that doesn't make any sense to me. Zerg is all about evolving so that they can overcome their enemies. Why haven't they evolved a cliff jumping species? Jumping walls was one of the major downfalls of castles, and that involved a sort of swarming technique in which you used a bunch of ladder and men to try to reach the inside of the castle. Seems to me a cliff jumping species would be beneficial and logical to the swarm race.
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zerg are designed very bad ... it's the worst race.
And terran are really OP
User was temp banned for this post.
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Jesus, peoples egos are far too big. Its been a month or two since the game was released.
There are actually quite a few zerg doing well.
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On September 24 2010 08:32 Shaozor wrote: There are actually quite a few zerg doing well.
Who?
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On September 24 2010 08:32 Shaozor wrote: Jesus, peoples egos are far too big. Its been a month or two since the game was released.
There are actually quite a few zerg doing well. You realize these ARE those Zerg "doing well", right?
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T.O.P.
Hong Kong4685 Posts
Playing zerg is bad for your health. Blizzard should have put that on the back of the box.
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On September 24 2010 08:18 Half wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2010 08:12 CruelZeratul wrote:On September 24 2010 08:01 Half wrote: Key factors why Zerg is underpowered: - Zerg cannot wall-in (even if you wasted resources for a row of spines the lack of ranged damage dealers to back up your wall makes it totally unviable.) - Zerg can't fight in chokes (again the lack of ranged damage dealers means chokes are zergs natural enemy, and without something like the defiler to help with that it amplifys the problem.) - Creep is a disadvantage (fighting off creep is a big disadvantage to Zerg, it also takes significant time and APM to spread creep, yet it can be destroyed very easily by the opponent. It is also a limiter on where you can build and also makes you very easily scouted) - Zerg AA is weak (Hydras come late leaving Z open to abuse. Hydras are slow off creep and are made of paper. Spore crawlers are not effective and uproot takes too long and is a poor tradeoff, would rather a permanant spore with better range/dmg.) - Zerg has less combat units, thus less options (Foregoing all workers, overlord/overseer/nydus for Z and observer / warp prism for P, because they are non combat and cant deal damage. The number combat units per race - T 12, P 12, Z 9 [10 if queen is counted]) - Zerg units lack utility without upgrades (e.g. zergling without speed upgrade, roach without speed or burrow, bane without speed, hydra without range, ultra without carapace. In contrast, marine/marauder/reaper/ghost/hellion/medivac/ still good with no upgrades, upgrades are just icing on the cake for terran) - Zerg t3 takes too long to reach (From the instant you make your first Spawning Pool, it takes 410 seconds minimum before you can start making an Ultralisk, assuming you go Straight for it, or 480 for Broodlords. Compared to the 235 for a Battlecruiser, or 260 for Carriers/Mothership, that's obscene. source) - Zerg does not have a unit that can deal damage from stealth (burrow) - Zerg does not have a unit that can use the cliff jump mechanic - Spawn larva is a blessing and a curse (Being able to bank larvae is great, but at the cost of having more APM required, requires queens which consume 2 supply ea. It is really more of a necessity than anything else, having units that are disposable and swarmy. Overall the mechanic is a disadvantage, macro is much easier from warpgates or rax/factories etc.) - Zerg scouting can easily be denied - Zerg units do not work well in 'critical mass', or as a ball. (Compared to T and P armies, Zerg has a weak army in critical mass, both T and P can get huge momentum going once they reach their critical mass. Zergs suffers from lack of good ranged damage and weak units. Choked terrain compounds this problem.) - Zerg can be punished for mistakes very easily. (Mainly due to lack of ability to wall-in or to use chokes defensively) - Corrupters and Infestors are less than good. (Even though fungal is decent, they're just not good units overall.)
Not how game balance works. You just stated why zerg was different. Would "Protoss is weak because they have no t1 scout" be a valid proof of the claim? No. They just shows how protoss is different. It is a statement of a (Incredibly obvious) fact. You need to highlight the relationships that show why these are problematic. Maybe blizzard intended zerg to have those defining characteristics. Are you saying that every race is intended to be equally good at everything? How the fuck did nobody notice that "Zerg does not have a unit that deals damage by stealth"? Do you think that was an accident? Not, it was a design. You need to open your mind on how game balance works to make proper commentary. Highlight relationships that support a conclusion, not facts. Here is an example. For instance "Zerg is underpowered because they cannot adequately prepare to the multitude of terran openers, which allow terran to start midgame with a econ advantage that zerg cannot recover from" would be a better valid statement, instead of "Zerg is underpowered because poor t1 scouting". One implies that the only way to fix this is to buff zerg T1 scouting. The other highligts a multifaceted relationship. Which could fixed in a multitude of ways, ranging from buffing zerg midgame advantage, nerfing terran econ, lowering viable terran openers, increasing zerg defense flexibility, or indeed, buffing zerg t1 scouting. Each which would shift the game towards a different direction. If the difference leads to imbalance it should be changed. Lol. All differences lead to imbalance. Slow protoss t1 movement speed means speedlings are too powerful. See? You seem to want a homogenized game. Differences are by definition imbalance, whats crucial is that compounded, one race is not any more or less imbalanced then the other.
On which data do you base this? Every data shows that this is probably false atm. So something needs to be changed and it shouln't matter if the races would be a bit less different in the end (they basically are very similiar anyway).
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On September 24 2010 08:33 Half wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2010 08:32 Shaozor wrote: There are actually quite a few zerg doing well. Who? Like Cool and Zenio and IdrA and Dimaga and.....oh god.
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On September 24 2010 08:33 SovSov wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2010 08:32 Shaozor wrote: Jesus, peoples egos are far too big. Its been a month or two since the game was released.
There are actually quite a few zerg doing well. You realize these ARE those Zerg "doing well", right?
Like I said their egos are far too big. It just reminds me of Idra's attitude. Lose and then QQ.
Why didn't they come up with this rage before they lost in the GSL? If they won they wouldn't have said anything about it.
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