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On September 24 2010 08:34 CruelZeratul wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2010 08:18 Half wrote:On September 24 2010 08:12 CruelZeratul wrote:On September 24 2010 08:01 Half wrote:
Key factors why Zerg is underpowered:
- Zerg cannot wall-in (even if you wasted resources for a row of spines the lack of ranged damage dealers to back up your wall makes it totally unviable.)
- Zerg can't fight in chokes (again the lack of ranged damage dealers means chokes are zergs natural enemy, and without something like the defiler to help with that it amplifys the problem.)
- Creep is a disadvantage (fighting off creep is a big disadvantage to Zerg, it also takes significant time and APM to spread creep, yet it can be destroyed very easily by the opponent. It is also a limiter on where you can build and also makes you very easily scouted)
- Zerg AA is weak (Hydras come late leaving Z open to abuse. Hydras are slow off creep and are made of paper. Spore crawlers are not effective and uproot takes too long and is a poor tradeoff, would rather a permanant spore with better range/dmg.)
- Zerg has less combat units, thus less options (Foregoing all workers, overlord/overseer/nydus for Z and observer / warp prism for P, because they are non combat and cant deal damage. The number combat units per race - T 12, P 12, Z 9 [10 if queen is counted])
- Zerg units lack utility without upgrades (e.g. zergling without speed upgrade, roach without speed or burrow, bane without speed, hydra without range, ultra without carapace. In contrast, marine/marauder/reaper/ghost/hellion/medivac/ still good with no upgrades, upgrades are just icing on the cake for terran)
- Zerg t3 takes too long to reach (From the instant you make your first Spawning Pool, it takes 410 seconds minimum before you can start making an Ultralisk, assuming you go Straight for it, or 480 for Broodlords. Compared to the 235 for a Battlecruiser, or 260 for Carriers/Mothership, that's obscene. source)
- Zerg does not have a unit that can deal damage from stealth (burrow)
- Zerg does not have a unit that can use the cliff jump mechanic
- Spawn larva is a blessing and a curse (Being able to bank larvae is great, but at the cost of having more APM required, requires queens which consume 2 supply ea. It is really more of a necessity than anything else, having units that are disposable and swarmy. Overall the mechanic is a disadvantage, macro is much easier from warpgates or rax/factories etc.)
- Zerg scouting can easily be denied
- Zerg units do not work well in 'critical mass', or as a ball. (Compared to T and P armies, Zerg has a weak army in critical mass, both T and P can get huge momentum going once they reach their critical mass. Zergs suffers from lack of good ranged damage and weak units. Choked terrain compounds this problem.)
- Zerg can be punished for mistakes very easily. (Mainly due to lack of ability to wall-in or to use chokes defensively)
- Corrupters and Infestors are less than good. (Even though fungal is decent, they're just not good units overall.)
Not how game balance works. You just stated why zerg was different. Would "Protoss is weak because they have no t1 scout" be a valid proof of the claim? No. They just shows how protoss is different. It is a statement of a (Incredibly obvious) fact. You need to highlight the relationships that show why these are problematic. Maybe blizzard intended zerg to have those defining characteristics. Are you saying that every race is intended to be equally good at everything? How the fuck did nobody notice that "Zerg does not have a unit that deals damage by stealth"? Do you think that was an accident? Not, it was a design. You need to open your mind on how game balance works to make proper commentary. Highlight relationships that support a conclusion, not facts. Here is an example. For instance "Zerg is underpowered because they cannot adequately prepare to the multitude of terran openers, which allow terran to start midgame with a econ advantage that zerg cannot recover from" would be a better valid statement, instead of "Zerg is underpowered because poor t1 scouting". One implies that the only way to fix this is to buff zerg T1 scouting. The other highligts a multifaceted relationship. Which could fixed in a multitude of ways, ranging from buffing zerg midgame advantage, nerfing terran econ, lowering viable terran openers, increasing zerg defense flexibility, or indeed, buffing zerg t1 scouting. Each which would shift the game towards a different direction. If the difference leads to imbalance it should be changed. Lol. All differences lead to imbalance. Slow protoss t1 movement speed means speedlings are too powerful. See? You seem to want a homogenized game. Differences are by definition imbalance, whats crucial is that compounded, one race is not any more or less imbalanced then the other. On which data do you base this? Every data shows that this is probably false atm. So something needs to be changed and it shouln't matter if the races would be a bit less different in the end (they basically are very similiar anyway).
What are you talking about? What "Data shows this is false". It isn't even a fucking statement based on data, its based on logic.
So something needs to be changed and it shouln't matter if the races would be a bit less different in the end (they basically are very similiar anyway).
Go play WC2 if you feel that way. Orc V Orc is pinnacle of competitive gaming.
Like I said their egos are far too big. It just reminds me of Idra's attitude. Lose and then QQ.
Why didn't they come up with this rage before they lost in the GSL? If they won they wouldn't have said anything about it.
Cool hasn't lost yet.
Look could you just stop talking ~_~.
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On September 24 2010 08:32 Shaozor wrote:
Jesus, peoples egos are far too big. Its been a month or two since the game was released.
There are actually quite a few zerg doing well.
Names please
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Cool is still in the GSL. He hasn't lost.
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On September 24 2010 08:36 Shaozor wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2010 08:33 SovSov wrote:On September 24 2010 08:32 Shaozor wrote:
Jesus, peoples egos are far too big. Its been a month or two since the game was released.
There are actually quite a few zerg doing well. You realize these ARE those Zerg "doing well", right? Like I said their egos are far too big. It just reminds me of Idra's attitude. Lose and then QQ. Why didn't they come up with this rage before they lost in the GSL? If they won they wouldn't have said anything about it.
Cool hasnt lost yet, he is still in the GSL.... soooo?
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cool is still in GSL so whats your point
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You can't expect the same sort of amazing game in Starcraft 2 because essentially, almost the entire team that was there for Starcraft the original are not at Blizzard anymore.
Same with Diablo 3.
A very depressing truth. Best of luck to Blizzard though even though they screwed up the launch balance so horribly.
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On September 24 2010 08:36 Shaozor wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2010 08:33 SovSov wrote:On September 24 2010 08:32 Shaozor wrote:
Jesus, peoples egos are far too big. Its been a month or two since the game was released.
There are actually quite a few zerg doing well. You realize these ARE those Zerg "doing well", right? Like I said their egos are far too big. It just reminds me of Idra's attitude. Lose and then QQ. Why didn't they come up with this rage before they lost in the GSL? If they won they wouldn't have said anything about it.
they've been raging since phase 1 beta. what are you talking about man? it just became most vociferous in phase 2 beta.
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On September 24 2010 08:37 hadoken5 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2010 08:32 Shaozor wrote:
Jesus, peoples egos are far too big. Its been a month or two since the game was released.
There are actually quite a few zerg doing well. Names please
Don't expect to win every match if your ladder win ratio is 50%. This goes for everyone.
Pretty sure cool has had a close match or something to set him over the edge into the Idra realm.
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On September 24 2010 08:10 Half wrote:Show nested quote +it would be a good idea to have a separate team experimenting with complete redesign of the multiplayer balance, from the ground up lol. Why? Can you provide an substantial, analytical reason for a multi-million proposition? If you believe it takes millions to redesign the multiplayer balance (I'm not even talking about new units), you probably haven't implemented games of your own before. It's not such a big deal actually.
The reason is very simple - the game at highest level is becoming too unified too quickly (to the point that even the race becomes unified). Blizzard have balanced the game using the input from the whole ladder, but in the end it only matters how the game looks in the hands of the best few players, who are after the highest prize. If those players make the game look boring and full of redundant unused tech/race - even moreso than in BW - then the scene won't last long, because the viewers would lose interest.
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On September 24 2010 08:38 epik640x wrote:
You can't expect the same sort of amazing game in Starcraft 2 because essentially, almost the entire team that was there for Starcraft the original are not at Blizzard anymore.
Same with Diablo 3.
A very depressing truth. Best of luck to Blizzard though even though they screwed up the launch balance so horribly.
50% of the SC2 development crew is retained from the original. Including 4 out of 6 of the lead designers.
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On September 24 2010 08:36 Shaozor wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2010 08:33 SovSov wrote:On September 24 2010 08:32 Shaozor wrote:
Jesus, peoples egos are far too big. Its been a month or two since the game was released.
There are actually quite a few zerg doing well. You realize these ARE those Zerg "doing well", right? Like I said their egos are far too big. It just reminds me of Idra's attitude. Lose and then QQ. Why didn't they come up with this rage before they lost in the GSL? If they won they wouldn't have said anything about it.
Why are you posting about something you clearly have NO IDEA about?
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Hes not going to change races, its a bluff. Remember Dimaga switching to T? Yea, he stilll plays Z. Its just his way of venting.
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On September 24 2010 08:39 Shaozor wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2010 08:37 hadoken5 wrote:On September 24 2010 08:32 Shaozor wrote:
Jesus, peoples egos are far too big. Its been a month or two since the game was released.
There are actually quite a few zerg doing well. Names please Don't expect to win every match if your ladder win ratio is 50%. This goes for everyone.
no, that doesnt go for everyone
we're referring to top 100, not gold league. and in this case, top 5. hes losing 90% of his practice games. zenio as well says he can not overcome the imbalances through practice (look at his games played, this isnt even counting the practice games which is probably more serious)
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On September 24 2010 08:36 Shaozor wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2010 08:33 SovSov wrote:On September 24 2010 08:32 Shaozor wrote:
Jesus, peoples egos are far too big. Its been a month or two since the game was released.
There are actually quite a few zerg doing well. You realize these ARE those Zerg "doing well", right? Like I said their egos are far too big. It just reminds me of Idra's attitude. Lose and then QQ. Why didn't they come up with this rage before they lost in the GSL? If they won they wouldn't have said anything about it.
But Cool is in the ro16 of the GSL playing in 9 hours :3
http://www.teamliquid.net/calendar/month_details.php?calendar_year=2010&calendar_month=9#event_2627
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On September 24 2010 08:36 Shaozor wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2010 08:33 SovSov wrote:On September 24 2010 08:32 Shaozor wrote:
Jesus, peoples egos are far too big. Its been a month or two since the game was released.
There are actually quite a few zerg doing well. You realize these ARE those Zerg "doing well", right? Like I said their egos are far too big. It just reminds me of Idra's attitude. Lose and then QQ. Why didn't they come up with this rage before they lost in the GSL? If they won they wouldn't have said anything about it.
cool is still in GSL, this rage is before their GSL.
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On September 24 2010 08:39 Shaozor wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2010 08:37 hadoken5 wrote:On September 24 2010 08:32 Shaozor wrote:
Jesus, peoples egos are far too big. Its been a month or two since the game was released.
There are actually quite a few zerg doing well. Names please Don't expect to win every match if your ladder win ratio is 50%. This goes for everyone. Pretty sure cool has had a close match or something to set him over the edge into the Idra realm.
Yes, losing 90% of his practice games with other races on his team.
And he's still in the GSL.
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On September 24 2010 08:01 Half wrote:Show nested quote +
Key factors why Zerg is underpowered:
- Zerg cannot wall-in (even if you wasted resources for a row of spines the lack of ranged damage dealers to back up your wall makes it totally unviable.)
- Zerg can't fight in chokes (again the lack of ranged damage dealers means chokes are zergs natural enemy, and without something like the defiler to help with that it amplifys the problem.)
- Creep is a disadvantage (fighting off creep is a big disadvantage to Zerg, it also takes significant time and APM to spread creep, yet it can be destroyed very easily by the opponent. It is also a limiter on where you can build and also makes you very easily scouted)
- Zerg AA is weak (Hydras come late leaving Z open to abuse. Hydras are slow off creep and are made of paper. Spore crawlers are not effective and uproot takes too long and is a poor tradeoff, would rather a permanant spore with better range/dmg.)
- Zerg has less combat units, thus less options (Foregoing all workers, overlord/overseer/nydus for Z and observer / warp prism for P, because they are non combat and cant deal damage. The number combat units per race - T 12, P 12, Z 9 [10 if queen is counted])
- Zerg units lack utility without upgrades (e.g. zergling without speed upgrade, roach without speed or burrow, bane without speed, hydra without range, ultra without carapace. In contrast, marine/marauder/reaper/ghost/hellion/medivac/ still good with no upgrades, upgrades are just icing on the cake for terran)
- Zerg t3 takes too long to reach (From the instant you make your first Spawning Pool, it takes 410 seconds minimum before you can start making an Ultralisk, assuming you go Straight for it, or 480 for Broodlords. Compared to the 235 for a Battlecruiser, or 260 for Carriers/Mothership, that's obscene. source)
- Zerg does not have a unit that can deal damage from stealth (burrow)
- Zerg does not have a unit that can use the cliff jump mechanic
- Spawn larva is a blessing and a curse (Being able to bank larvae is great, but at the cost of having more APM required, requires queens which consume 2 supply ea. It is really more of a necessity than anything else, having units that are disposable and swarmy. Overall the mechanic is a disadvantage, macro is much easier from warpgates or rax/factories etc.)
- Zerg scouting can easily be denied
- Zerg units do not work well in 'critical mass', or as a ball. (Compared to T and P armies, Zerg has a weak army in critical mass, both T and P can get huge momentum going once they reach their critical mass. Zergs suffers from lack of good ranged damage and weak units. Choked terrain compounds this problem.)
- Zerg can be punished for mistakes very easily. (Mainly due to lack of ability to wall-in or to use chokes defensively)
- Corrupters and Infestors are less than good. (Even though fungal is decent, they're just not good units overall.)
Not how game balance works. You just stated why zerg was different. Would "Protoss is weak because they have no t1 scout" be a valid proof of the claim? No. They just shows how protoss is different. It is a statement of a (Incredibly obvious) fact. You need to highlight the relationships that show why these are problematic. Maybe blizzard intended zerg to have those defining characteristics. Are you saying that every race is intended to be equally good at everything? How the fuck did nobody notice that "Zerg does not have a unit that deals damage by stealth"? Do you think that was an accident? Not, it was a design. You need to open your mind on how game balance works to make proper commentary. Highlight relationships that support a conclusion, not facts. Here is an example. For instance "Zerg is underpowered because they cannot adequately prepare to the multitude of terran openers, which allow terran to start midgame with a econ advantage that zerg cannot recover from" would be a better valid statement, instead of "Zerg is underpowered because poor t1 scouting". One implies that the only way to fix this is to buff zerg T1 scouting. The other highligts a multifaceted relationship. Which could fixed in a multitude of ways, ranging from buffing zerg midgame advantage, nerfing terran econ, lowering viable terran openers, increasing zerg defense flexibility, or indeed, buffing zerg t1 scouting. Each which would shift the game towards a different direction.
I agree with you, because diversity is what makes the game great. I'm not really trying to suggest that every point needs to be fixed so that Zerg has an equal and opposite response, but that Zerg are lacking in those key areas. It's up to Blizz to give Zerg more options and tools, they don't need to be the same as the other races.
I don't think there is any point writing an essay on what each of those points mean, anyone who understands the game can read those points and understand their implications.
E.g. The point about zerg having less combat units. From that point you should be able to infer directly that Zerg has less options. Sure they can swarm more of a unit, but there are less unit types to choose from. Different units fill different roles, and Zerg has less to choose from. E.g. What can a tank do Vs what can a reaper do. Compare any two units in the game and they clearly have different utility and purpose. It is very clear that Zerg has fewer choices to compose their army, which in turn makes it much easier for opponents to counter because they know what to expect. It also gives Zerg less ways to expose their enemys weaknesses through direct hard counters Etc.
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On September 24 2010 08:40 billyX333 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2010 08:39 Shaozor wrote:On September 24 2010 08:37 hadoken5 wrote:On September 24 2010 08:32 Shaozor wrote:
Jesus, peoples egos are far too big. Its been a month or two since the game was released.
There are actually quite a few zerg doing well. Names please Don't expect to win every match if your ladder win ratio is 50%. This goes for everyone. no, that doesnt go for everyone we're referring to top 100, not gold league. hes losing 90% of his practice games. zenio as well says he can not overcome the imbalances through practice (look at his games played, this isnt even counting the practice games which is probably more serious)
If you're winning only 50% of your games you're only going to win 50% of your games. I don't even understand how you can argue that point LOL. Practicing and losing 90% of his games is a different story... unless he is having a bad day or a few days and losing is a result of some other stress.
It's already been proven there are other real-life factors resulting in bad/good gameplay.
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On September 24 2010 08:36 Shaozor wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2010 08:33 SovSov wrote:On September 24 2010 08:32 Shaozor wrote:
Jesus, peoples egos are far too big. Its been a month or two since the game was released.
There are actually quite a few zerg doing well. You realize these ARE those Zerg "doing well", right? Like I said their egos are far too big. It just reminds me of Idra's attitude. Lose and then QQ. Why didn't they come up with this rage before they lost in the GSL? If they won they wouldn't have said anything about it.
Cool and Check are the only zergs still in GSL!
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On September 24 2010 08:43 Shaozor wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2010 08:40 billyX333 wrote:On September 24 2010 08:39 Shaozor wrote:On September 24 2010 08:37 hadoken5 wrote:On September 24 2010 08:32 Shaozor wrote:
Jesus, peoples egos are far too big. Its been a month or two since the game was released.
There are actually quite a few zerg doing well. Names please Don't expect to win every match if your ladder win ratio is 50%. This goes for everyone. no, that doesnt go for everyone we're referring to top 100, not gold league. hes losing 90% of his practice games. zenio as well says he can not overcome the imbalances through practice (look at his games played, this isnt even counting the practice games which is probably more serious) If you're winning only 50% of your games you're only going to win 50% of your games. I don't even understand how you can argue that point LOL. Practicing and losing 90% of his games is a different story... unless he is having a bad day or a few days and losing is a result of some other stress.
Rofl, you honestly have no idea what you are talking about.
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EPT
