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andrinho
United States90 Posts
On September 14 2010 00:38 Antisocialmunky wrote: I think this can add about 2-3 seconds to a fast banshee which equates to a extra volley :D My point is that it is beneficial to low tech rushes, banshees need gas. | ||
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Jaeger
United States1150 Posts
On September 14 2010 00:42 z00t wrote: But since all races' workers would benefit from such a 'fix', wouldn't it just end up being the same as it is now  ? Why would macro players get any more of an edge over non-macro players than they do at the moment?Because it's a compounding advantage and zerg can produce multiple workers at a time in the early game. | ||
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Endorsed
Netherlands1221 Posts
My point is that it is beneficial to low tech rushes, banshees need gas. Ever thought of the fact you are able to get your 2nd gas a whole 50 minerals earlier? | ||
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Voidious
United States6 Posts
On September 13 2010 16:20 Jaeger wrote: My experimental results seem to show the potential gain is larger than 7%. Steps: - Run yabot steppes of war - choose basic mode - reset as protoss (-r p) - train worker - box and 3:3 split - rally first 2 probes to empty patches - reset and leave rally at middle patch - pylon on 9 @ 100 minerals adjacent to nexus - chrono boost 11th probe and continue to pump probes until 18 - pause when 18th probe spawns I got 2:58 with 685 minerals and 25 energy on my nexus Now open up the map in galaxy editor f7 for data module data type behaviors select neutral>minerals change stats return delay from .5 to 0 this should simulate optimal micro if we understand this trick correctly. Rerun the test with this map. I got 2:56 with 770 minerals and 24 energy on my nexus A little math gives us a relative percent difference of mineral per second rate here as ~12.8% which seems much higher than 7%. Probably not possible to reach that level of efficiency in practice but seems interesting. Ending with 12% more minerals doesn't mean mining increased by 12% -- remember you spent 600 minerals on probes, 100 on a pylon, and you start with 50. If you add 750 to both numbers, you'll see 6-7%. | ||
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spydR
Australia243 Posts
It's a small advantage. A good one, but a small one. | ||
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figq
12519 Posts
We don't have to clutch like drowning men to every little precious exploit to make the game more interesting, either. If the game is not interesting enough as it is, that needs to be addressed. | ||
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MorroW
Sweden3522 Posts
normally give 270 with this mineral boost it gives 300 u can que up about 3-4 times per returning so ud have to baby watch the mule for 3 trips to que him enough so he can get it for his entire life worth it? yes, but only if u dont have anything better to do. im gonna start doing this but only for my first 1-2 mules and not my scvs ^^ | ||
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andrinho
United States90 Posts
On September 14 2010 00:56 Endorsed wrote: Ever thought of the fact you are able to get your 2nd gas a whole 50 minerals earlier? Good point, although you would be basically "wasting" workers on gas since in the big picture you could get more benefit off of minerals since you can through special micro gather more than it is "intended". | ||
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Stromming
Sweden64 Posts
On September 14 2010 01:03 spydR wrote: I hope you're all aware that this isn't in any way gamebreaking. 7% is a definite advantage, but it's a small one. Considering you have to do it to EVERY one of your workers constantly to achieve 7% (trust me, it would require absolutely amazing handspeed), the benefits while real will be minimal. I'm definitely an advocate of 'every little bit helps', but you have to realise that this increase has less bearing than scouting before gateway, attacking cross positions, not putting workers in gas for 2-3 seconds. It's a small advantage. A good one, but a small one. How can an advantage be good but small? The magnitude of the advantage defines how good it is. An advantage cannot be big, but bad - and hence cannot be good, but small. | ||
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SCdinner
Canada516 Posts
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Ndugu
United States1078 Posts
On September 14 2010 00:42 z00t wrote: But since all races' workers would benefit from such a 'fix', wouldn't it just end up being the same as it is now ? Why would macro players get any more of an edge over non-macro players than they do at the moment?Well, its not a HUGE advantage haha, but compare say, a 4gating Protoss who stops at only like 16 workers to make his push extra effective versus a 2-base Zerg who droned extra hard and has both bases close to saturated before the push comes. He'll have eeked out SLIGHTLY more of an economic advantage from it and perhaps have a bit more money to throw into defense. Odds are it would never actually be a noticeable advantage, but it a slight effect of patching this (which I think will happen). | ||
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Stromming
Sweden64 Posts
On September 14 2010 01:17 Ndugu wrote: Well, its not a HUGE advantage haha, but compare say, a 4gating Protoss who stops at only like 16 workers to make his push extra effective versus a 2-base Zerg who droned extra hard and has both bases close to saturated before the push comes. He'll have eeked out SLIGHTLY more of an economic advantage from it and perhaps have a bit more money to throw into defense. Odds are it would never actually be a noticeable advantage, but it a slight effect of patching this (which I think will happen). I believe you have to do it for every individual worker. Doing it with 16+ workers simply doesnt seem feasible to me. The race which might benefit more would be Terran. As Morrow stated above, it can give 30 minerals extra per Mule, which sounds like a big deal to me. | ||
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Wr3k
Canada2533 Posts
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spydR
Australia243 Posts
On September 14 2010 01:15 Stromming wrote: How can an advantage be good but small? The magnitude of the advantage defines how good it is. An advantage cannot be big, but bad - and hence cannot be good, but small. good was redundant in that sense. Sorry grammar police. Contribute to the thread next time please instead of nitpicking for your own ego trip. I've already played around with this a couple of times, and it does require a fair amount of concentration to be useful past the 15-16 supply mark. It's definitely a cool find, but don't scream doomsday. | ||
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Ndugu
United States1078 Posts
On September 14 2010 01:25 Stromming wrote: I believe you have to do it for every individual worker. Doing it with 16+ workers simply doesnt seem feasible to me. The race which might benefit more would be Terran. As Morrow stated above, it can give 30 minerals extra per Mule, which sounds like a big deal to me. Oh yeah, I was talking about if they patch it-- with the assumption being that the patch would just speed up the queued movement and give everyone a 7% mineral boost across the board. I would like this, as atm I see too many macro players end up just not having enough units due to the mass supply workers take up, the cost of workers, etc. A small boost to macro-style play would be great. Alternatively, they would just keep this micro trick from working somehow and mineral amounts would be the same as they are now. But that could just be the game needing to evolve and my opinion could be totally off base Edit: note that I'm not saying they SHOULD patch this, but rather, that I think they WILL. It seems to be their design philosophy to remove unintended micro/macro and I'm not sure I disagree. | ||
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raga4ka
Bulgaria5679 Posts
Why would you even bother Blizzard to change this ? It will only lower the skill gap of this game and that will make it more boring on a professional level . Even if they do patch it other things like this will be expolited in the future . Blizzard has much bigger balance issues right now to be bothered with this ... | ||
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ViRuS171
United States10 Posts
On September 13 2010 23:54 Ruien wrote: Maybe someone has mentioned this, but it seems like "C" isn't necessary anywhere during this process. While an SCV is mining, select him and shift-right-click the mineral patch he is currently mining. Strangely enough, he will return with cargo immediately instead of pausing. At least, it seems to work on 'slowest' in a single-player match. There has been a lot of discussion about "shift-right-click CC, then press "C" when he starts going back, then shift-right-click the mineral patch". So I just wanted to point out that I'm getting identical results by just shift-right-clicking a mineral patch without ever needing the "C" (return cargo) command at any point. Can anyone else confirm this? I don't have access to SC2 right now(at work =x) but I was wondering if anyone else can confirm this? Is including 'C' in the shift-queue unnecessary in performing this trick? Seems like it would make this trick a little easier to perform for apm-challenged folks such as myself. | ||
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Runnin
208 Posts
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kickinhead
Switzerland2069 Posts
Mules really need to start colliding with SCV's when mining or they better remove this piece of gold-diggin' imbalance. | ||
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oberon
United States1320 Posts
OK, I found those steps, but they're sorted by alpha, and no details seem to be available (they seem to be inherited from a built-in behavior, CAbilGather or something like that). Are there more docs somewhere I'm missing? I'm especially curious where you're getting N=0.5, obviously. | ||
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