EPTSC2 Ladder Misconceptions FAQ - Page 5
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United States7081 Posts
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Excalibur_Z
United States12235 Posts
On September 21 2010 03:03 Sixes wrote: I have a question now that I have read through all of this. Given: Q: Is it possible for both players to see the other as Favored? A: Yes, because it compares the opponent's MMR to the player's displayed rating. This is common when both players haven't played many games, meaning their MMR is higher than their displayed rating. Bonus pool affects displayed rating, so someone who has an unused bonus pool (a bunch of accumulated points) is less favored than the same person with the bonus pool used (as they are essentially free points). Does this mean that with say, 150 points saved you are better off losing 10 then winning 10 than winning 10 then losing the same 10 (as the use of the bonus pool will make those losses much larger) ? We also have this question that directly answers that: Q: Is the bonus pool considered in any calculations? How can that be accurate if it constantly inflates ratings? A: Because everyone has access to the same total amount of bonus pool, it's unlikely that it is included in any matchmaking calculations. However, this can be interpreted in two ways. Either the max bonus pool is subtracted internally from everyone's rating (similar to global rating decay), or only the consumed bonus pool (the inflated portion of your rating) is subtracted. Say you have two players in the same league whose MMRs/points have stabilized. Player A has 500 and Player B has 300. Player A has consumed 400 bonus pool and Player B has consumed 150 bonus pool. If the max is subtracted from everyone, then A would be higher up because B's unspent points are working against him. If not, then that means that their "true ratings" are 100 for A and 150 for B, so even though A has a higher displayed rating, B would be higher up. We don't know which is the case, but we could speculate that the "true rating" design would be more accurate because it's a fairer design. | ||
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Excalibur_Z
United States12235 Posts
On September 21 2010 03:32 SCdinner wrote: I might have this wrong but don't your points get reduced when you go up divisions? I was under the impression that your overall points where divided in half every time you go up a division. I had a friend that was in platinum with 1200 points and when I checked him a couple days later he was diamond with 700. It made me assume this though he could have just lost a huge number of games in a couple days  You do lose some points, but it varies per player and probably more specifically by games played. That is, when I got promoted to Diamond in 1v1 I lost 63 points and was 16-9. When Vanick got promoted from Bronze to Silver he lost 12 points and was 5-5. There's some formula at work, but it's not obvious what it is and certainly not as simple as "we just halve your current points". | ||
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Sixes
Canada1123 Posts
On September 21 2010 03:53 Excalibur_Z wrote: + Show Spoiler + On September 21 2010 03:03 Sixes wrote: I have a question now that I have read through all of this. Given: Q: Is it possible for both players to see the other as Favored? A: Yes, because it compares the opponent's MMR to the player's displayed rating. This is common when both players haven't played many games, meaning their MMR is higher than their displayed rating. Bonus pool affects displayed rating, so someone who has an unused bonus pool (a bunch of accumulated points) is less favored than the same person with the bonus pool used (as they are essentially free points). Does this mean that with say, 150 points saved you are better off losing 10 then winning 10 than winning 10 then losing the same 10 (as the use of the bonus pool will make those losses much larger) ? We also have this question that directly answers that: Q: Is the bonus pool considered in any calculations? How can that be accurate if it constantly inflates ratings? A: Because everyone has access to the same total amount of bonus pool, it's unlikely that it is included in any matchmaking calculations. However, this can be interpreted in two ways. Either the max bonus pool is subtracted internally from everyone's rating (similar to global rating decay), or only the consumed bonus pool (the inflated portion of your rating) is subtracted. Say you have two players in the same league whose MMRs/points have stabilized. Player A has 500 and Player B has 300. Player A has consumed 400 bonus pool and Player B has consumed 150 bonus pool. If the max is subtracted from everyone, then A would be higher up because B's unspent points are working against him. If not, then that means that their "true ratings" are 100 for A and 150 for B, so even though A has a higher displayed rating, B would be higher up. We don't know which is the case, but we could speculate that the "true rating" design would be more accurate because it's a fairer design. Thank you, I had not read that question that way ... It makes sense that they would in fact subtract the bonus pool influence altogether for calculations. As for the purpose of bonus pool it is just to make WoWbies (you know, blizzard's customer base :/) feel like they are improving rather than stagnating. This also means that there is no set "good" point count but only a relative one (what was 600 diamond is now 1000 diamond and will be 1500 diamond in a month most likely). Logically the "real point-bonus pool" should remain somewhat static (and be a good indicator of improvement or not. In fact if someone were to start a new team or get their placement done, tell us the value of the bonus pool, we can divide by the time since release to get a decent approximation of the exact bonus pool input and from there determine the "real point - bonus pool" (where top pros are probably about 1200-1400 and I would be 500 rather than 1100). | ||
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SCdinner
Canada516 Posts
On September 21 2010 03:57 Excalibur_Z wrote: You do lose some points, but it varies per player and probably more specifically by games played. That is, when I got promoted to Diamond in 1v1 I lost 63 points and was 16-9. When Vanick got promoted from Bronze to Silver he lost 12 points and was 5-5. There's some formula at work, but it's not obvious what it is and certainly not as simple as "we just halve your current points". Thank you very much for clairifying. I can't find any threads that talk about this subject but maybe I'm not using the right search terms. Does anyone know anything about this factor in advancing leauges or is the calculations too obscure to figure out? | ||
tofucake
Hyrule19026 Posts
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xtfftc
United Kingdom2343 Posts
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Excalibur_Z
United States12235 Posts
On September 21 2010 04:53 xtfftc wrote: I'm sure that another FAQ is "What is MMR?" :D That's why the ladder analysis threads are linked :> | ||
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RinconH
United States512 Posts
Blizz's secret ranking (MMR) is the only thing guiding the system. Point in case, I'm a 1200 Diamond 2v2 player now playing the 1v1 ladder. I was placed in Platinum but play almost exclusively Diamond 1v1s in the 1100 range (probably 15 of my 23 games have been this) all of whom are "favored". When I win I get big number boosts to "fast track" me to that level where Blizz thinks I should be. I suppose, once the system gets more data, it will level me out and I'll start playing more "even" matches. It's a good system IMO. | ||
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mathemagician1986
Germany549 Posts
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Excalibur_Z
United States12235 Posts
On September 21 2010 07:23 mathemagician1986 wrote: can anyone explain to me the purpose of this bpnus pool? The way I see it, it only achieves that we will never reach an ELO cap. What's the point of a system that is supposed to give you an idea of your skill level, if it is highly inflationary? I don't think you're using Elo in the proper context here, which is why I dissuade anyone from using that word. There's displayed rating and there's MMR. If you mean that the displayed ratings will never cap out, then yeah, that's probably the intent. Keep playing to hold your position. Your relative position though won't change due to inactivity. | ||
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junki
United States5 Posts
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Sworn
Canada920 Posts
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forgotten0ne
United States951 Posts
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EliteAzn
United States661 Posts
I like my own sig/quote about placement matches  Anyways nice analysis and everything is a lot clearer now. | ||
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Hikko
United States1126 Posts
I'm currently rank 1 in my Platinum division, and I've constantly been playing Diamond players that are around rank 40-20 (I haven't checked ELOs). My matches always say "even match" on the load screens. I've also been on a 9-win streak against these same kinds of players, going 15-3 for all of my games today, yet just like this last month I'm still stuck in the top of Platinum. Will I ever be moved up? I keep playing Diamond players and have been since release, yet I've never been bumped from Platinum . I've never gone on a losing streak more than 4 losses in a row, although you say that that shouldn't matter. | ||
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Dionyseus
United States2068 Posts
On September 23 2010 14:31 Hikko wrote: I've read this a few times over the past couple of weeks including today, and right now I'm really confused as to my status in my 1v1 laddering. I'm currently rank 1 in my Platinum division, and I've constantly been playing Diamond players that are around rank 40-20 (I haven't checked ELOs). My matches always say "even match" on the load screens. I've also been on a 9-win streak against these same kinds of players, going 15-3 for all of my games today, yet just like this last month I'm still stuck in the top of Platinum. Will I ever be moved up? I keep playing Diamond players and have been since release, yet I've never been bumped from Platinum . I've never gone on a losing streak more than 4 losses in a row, although you say that that shouldn't matter.You are Hikko.324 currently a little over 1000pts in platinum correct? If that's you, I see you had a 9 game losing streak just six days ago, that must have caused your mmr to plummet. Today you had an 8 game winning streak but most of the games were against people around your skill level (11 points means practically even I believe) which means your mmr is still not high enough for diamond yet. Even the one game in that winning streak (3rd game in the series) that you got 14 points from, it was against a platinum 900. I think you will know you're close to getting promoted when you start getting 13-15 points per win more often, as that would mean you're winning against people that the system thinks are better than you. | ||
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Dionyseus
United States2068 Posts
On September 23 2010 13:30 forgotten0ne wrote: Alright, so I'm trying to use this faq to determine the answer to this. I'm going to assume that the "Top 200" Blizzard posts is based on the hidden rating. I have a friend that hovers around 1500 points, playing completely actively, and yet still doesn't get into the top 200. (yes, he's diamond) Does this mean he's lost a lot of matches that bring his hidden mmr way down, but win ones that don't really bring it up? If you give us your friend's character name maybe we could help you. | ||
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Creation85
51 Posts
On September 05 2010 14:43 Excalibur_Z wrote: Q: What do the different symbols, like the exclamation point, red arrow, and green arrow mean when viewing a division? A: An exclamation point means that the player has been placed in that division but not played any games last week. This is wrong, I haven't played any 1v1 games for well over 2 weeks and mine still has a green arrow. | ||
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Nilaus
Denmark159 Posts
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