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On September 02 2010 08:31 Manifesto7 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2010 08:29 PokePill wrote:On September 02 2010 08:10 GreatFall wrote:
This is the only business I have ever heard of where they closed due to 'to much' interest and success. Also, Louder as I wrote in the xyos' blog I think it was pretty shitty of you to call out INcontroL as someone who is lying and trying to sabotage gosugaming. Real class act. I was going to say how ridiculous this is as well because it is not exactly hard to set up a php/asp/jsp website that can handle something like this, and even automate scheduling and process payments. But you can't expect them to have anticipated thousands of people wanting lessons at a video game. I'm sure the workload expected was like 1% of what they received. I don't know how you can expect someone working a full time job and dealing with real life issues to possibly have foreseen or have been able to handle this. It just goes to show how lucrative this market really is, or how good they were at advertising their brand. The issue is that they still took their money though. Normally you wouldn't accept the money until the times have been arranged, instead of some vague "future date" commitment.
You are right, I didn't realize their first emails that were with their client involved getting their money before scheduling or anything began.
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[B]On September 02 2010 00:21 Louder wrote:
I realize it would be far more courteous and professional to gather those details and contact people individually, but along the lines of the scheduling work and other mentioned above - I simply do not have the time.
This right here says it all to me.
Make the time.
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On September 02 2010 08:36 iEchoic wrote:
I too don't understand all the goodwill. Why would they take peoples' money without a set date for a lesson, at the very least? It sounds like they just took money in and then blew people off, which is closer to 'criminal' than 'good-intentioned'. Add on forcing people to dispute with paypal and this seems really obnoxious.
Am I understanding something wrong?
In an ideal world, sure that's how it would work. But when you're dealing with multiple people in various geographic locations, some of whom may not always be immediately responsive to emails / contact, it's hard to always make sure there was an agreed upon date set before making payment. Unless of course there's a calendar / scheduling system built into the website.
In any case, I think the intentions were good, and Louder probably had too much faith in the coaches to be readily available and more easily accessible. People started scheduling lessons, and then he realized that the back and forth with the coaches and the scheduling was too slow to be able to keep up with the demand of incoming requests.
For example, I tried to schedule a lesson with LZ. I paid for a 2 hour block, went back and forth with Louder multiple times via email, and after about a week Louder was saying he just couldn't get in touch with LZ and he hasn't responded. That probably wasn't Louder's fault, it was more likely Lz. But right about the same time, they got PsyonicReaver, so Louder asked if I wanted to schedule with him instead. I said ok, Louder booked him for a certain day. Psyonic emailed me personally saying that Louder booked him for a day that he wasn't available on and he was confused because Louder didn't ask him confirm the time with him in advance. But I rescheduled the time personally with Psyonic and everything went fine.
Anyway, point being, I don't think there was ever any malicious intent. Just bad decisions, and lack of clear organization. The entire model of having a middle man, whom you can only communicate with via email, and that middle man can only communicate with the other endpoints via email, then you're just screwed right from the start.
He just didn't realize that, and learned the hard way.
Don't get me wrong, there's no good will coming from my end, and I still want an answer about why coaches didn't get paid for time spent coaching. If, for example, it's to handle the paypal chargebacks, then THAT starts to get into shady territory and demonstrates a lack of integrity and should be shunned. As the poster above said, MAKE the time. It's the right thing to do. When YOU are the one that fucks up, then YOU are the one that bears the burden of making it right.
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i hate to say it but... its understandable why the DMVs are all horrible... hundreds of people wanting to get in contact / interact with a few. same case for gosucoaching i guess. This is just a case of good people with good intentions spreading themselves too thin leading to poor execution... not that there really is a "good" alternative to this situation that could be realised overnight.
Best of luck to you louder and team EG
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This whole situation is very unprofessional.
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I think the most shocking thing is that there were so many people willing to pay for coaching lol. I remember years ago it was like Rekrul+Elky and all those old school gosu trying the same kind of thing.I don't believe they ever got much going from it.They were like real pros living in korea at the time too. Louder should get a job in marketing because I don't know how they became so big so fast. It be interesting to see if they can get it going again.
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On September 02 2010 08:57 InToTheWannaB wrote:
I think the most shocking thing is that there were so many people will to pay for coaching lol. I remember years ago it was like Rekrul+Elky and all those old school gosu trying the same kind of thing.I don't believe they ever got much going from it.They were like real pros living in korea at the time too. Louder should get a job in marketing because I don't know how they became so big so fast. It be interesting to see if they can get it going again.
I don't think it's surprising at all. Are you surprised that people buy WoW gold, FFXI gil, or any other types of online currency too?
At least here people are paying to legitimately become better at the game, and not paying to cheat.
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On September 02 2010 08:57 InToTheWannaB wrote: Louder should get a job in marketing because I don't know how they became so big so fast. It be interesting to see if they can get it going again. The problem is, the entire thing was built on their reputation, and that trump card only works one time. There's a new reputation now, and it's not one on which to build a business.
On September 02 2010 00:06 Louder wrote:Also, since this was aired publicly, even though I addressed it in my main post, do not believe that coaches are getting shafted. They are not. There's a narrow window of time for which I can't pay them for lessons, which means a couple of them will lose out on a little money, but it can't be helped - and this whole thing will end up personally costing me hundreds, which I can certainly live with 
Anyone think there will be a lot of coaches signing up for a similar arrangement with him in the future? Ever?
I hear Enron is hiring, and Bernie Madoff is hanging signs in the neighborhood looking for people to mentor. :D
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I contacted gosucoaching 2 weeks ago to setup a lesson. I loved the idea and had heard good things about their coaches. After a few emails by myself to Gosucoaching to see how i could get the ball rolling and get a payment their way I was finally contacted. I was told that there had been a few hiccups but everything was alright and to send my payment to their paypal account.
Louder, I sure hope this "temporary closing" wasn't known about 8 days ago when I was told to send you the money. If that in fact is the truth, it's incredibly poor business ethics
If you do plan on re-opening Gosucoaching it would be in your best interest to refund your customer's money, making them do the leg work is an absolute joke. How do you think your customers feel? I'm sure if they're anything like me they've sent several emails and tried different ways to contact your company over the past few weeks.
Hopefully you'll rethink that decision if you ever want to have a clean reputation in the SC community.
I just want to re-iterate, this has nothing to do with the coaches as their reviews and reputations have showed them nothing but praise, I'm looking forward to contacting the Zerg coaches directly for a lesson.
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You guys are really this shocked that a bunch of young gamers didn't run a company with thousands of inquiries properly? Jesus give them a break, there refunding the money, they have other shit going on im sure. This isn't BP, Chevron, Enron, or any other huge company so don't expect it to be as such.
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Sounds that they are pretty good at SC, but bad at business. Maybe they should put somebody else in charge of the scheduling if Louder doesn't have the time?
From listening to LZ's stream, it's not a matter of "things not working out", it's got more with incontrol and louder having mutual issues.
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Osaka27148 Posts
On September 02 2010 09:11 ckw wrote:
You guys are really this shocked that a bunch of young gamers didn't run a company with thousands of inquiries properly? Jesus give them a break, there refunding the money, they have other shit going on im sure. This isn't BP, Chevron, Enron, or any other huge company so don't expect it to be as such.
They aren't young.
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On September 02 2010 09:11 ckw wrote:
You guys are really this shocked that a bunch of young gamers didn't run a company with thousands of inquiries properly? Jesus give them a break, there refunding the money, they have other shit going on im sure. This isn't BP, Chevron, Enron, or any other huge company so don't expect it to be as such.
I work at an electrical contracting business, scheduling service calls, and talking to angry people who are pissed that their electricity isnt working, or some other necessary appliance. This doesnt mean i tell them "send me your money... i dont have anyone available for the next 3 weeks.. but send me your money and ill just get to you when i can"
If we don't have the time/availability/resources to get to them we just say "we are sorry but we are just booked for X weeks, if you cannot wait that long then you need to contact another company" we dont say "um... send me your money and then we'll see if i can help you."
This is terribly terribly shady and just flat out wrong, regardless of what happened or how it started. Once you take someone else's money they are YOUR responsibility, not the other way around. This makes your whole operation sound like one of those scams where you get people to send you money and then "well its so inconvenient to get such a small amount of money back, maybe we will get to keep it"... just wrong.
Great SC people, terrible business people.
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On September 02 2010 09:26 mnofstl007 wrote:
If we don't have the time/availability/resources to get to them we just say "we are sorry but we are just booked for X weeks, if you cannot wait that long then you need to contact another company" we dont say "um... send me your money and then we'll see if i can help you."
This is terribly terribly shady and just flat out wrong, regardless of what happened or how it started. Once you take someone else's money they are YOUR responsibility, not the other way around. This makes your whole operation sound like one of those scams where you get people to send you money and then "well its so inconvenient to get such a small amount of money back, maybe we will get to keep it"... just wrong.
Great SC people, terrible business people.
Yes, but now imagine that you don't even know if you are booked or not, because you've got 10 people wanting service from 3 contractors, and there's a 24-hour turnaround time between each question you ask the contractors, and there's no clearly defined working hours or "on call" hours.
It's not shady so much as dumb. The only thing shady would be not paying your contractors for work they already did and for which you were paid.
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Louder,
I hope these minor difficulties will merely be a speed bump in the road for you and gosucoaching. I think you guys provide a great service and would to continue to see it be an integral part in the community for the years to come. I personally know how much time you've invested in creating gosucoaching and have a great staff to teach Starcraft to people. Hang in there, and good luck.
-Adam
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You are right there is nothing shady about "send us your moneys..." and then a week later "sry, but if you want a refund you have to fight to get it back, im not going to just send back people's money that i took without providing any kind of service"
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On September 02 2010 09:36 mnofstl007 wrote:
You are right there is nothing shady about "send us your moneys..." and then a week later "sry, but if you want a refund you have to fight to get it back, im not going to just send back people's money that i took without providing any kind of service"
To be fair, he said he would, but it would take quite a bit longer than doing it yourself.
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By phrasing it that way, you are injecting intent to deceive, which doesn't exist in the actual situation of what happened.
Should he do all the work of getting peoples' money back to them himself? Yes, absolutely. Is there any malicious intent or deceit involved? Of course not.
What *is* shady is not paying coaches for the time they already spent coaching. There is no excuse for that, period. He received money from students, it needs to go to the coaches. He's free to take his $12 cut or whatever it is. End of discussion. If people are not getting paid, that is shady because he ALREADY HAS THE MONEY.
Part of the reason the founders / leaders always make all the money and do the least amount of work is because they assume all the financial risk of the company. In this case, it seems like he wanted the reward without the risk. That is shady. Maybe I'm wrong. But I honestly can't think of a legitimate reason why people who spent their time coaching, and whom Louder received payment for said coaching, should not be paid.
Making people do paypal chargebacks and get the money themselves is, quite frankly, bullshit. And he's only shooting himself, his integrity, and his future business prospects in the foot by doing it. But it's not shady. Maybe he has RL shit going on. idk. But as cold as it sounds, it doesn't matter. When you're the face of a business, the responsibility is on you. And when you dont' deliver, customers and employees don't care about, and shouldn't be expected to care about, the reasons.
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On September 02 2010 09:41 monad wrote:
By phrasing it that way, you are injecting intent to deceive, which doesn't exist in the actual situation of what happened.
Should he do all the work of getting peoples' money back to them himself? Yes, absolutely. Is there any malicious intent or deceit involved? Of course not.
What *is* shady is not paying coaches for the time they already spent coaching. There is no excuse for that, period. He received money from students, it needs to go to the coaches. He's free to take his $12 cut or whatever it is. End of discussion. If people are not getting paid, that is shady because he ALREADY HAS THE MONEY.
Making people do paypal chargebacks and get the money themselves is, quite frankly, bullshit. And he's only shooting himself, his integrity, and his future business prospects in the foot by doing it. But it's not shady.
I do not personally know his intent so i cannot answer for that, i just simplified the situation, but maybe over-simplified it.
But ya, ripping the coaches is shady also.
LF coaches to start a similar business... >=)... jk... mostly.
to be honest I am amazed that they had enough people willing to pay for lessons, the first time I saw his advertisement I thought there was no way he could keep 1-2 coaches even semi-busy. Shocked that there was enough for him to become overwhelmed and just crash.
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