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Talking about winrate is flawed, because of the way the matchmaking system works. Assume that my hidden ranking is 800 and that my real life skill is 900. Then until my hidden ranking reaches 900 I should be able to play easy players at a higher than 50% win rating. This means that I may have 10 games at 60%, but it does not mean that if I play 100 games I will maintain the ratio. The only ways that my win ratio can improve is by short-term luck, by being so good that bnet can't find an opponent to beat me, or improving my actual skill. If you seriously think that you can get over 50% by some other method, think again.
(Basically, if you say things like XX% winrate player, or try to estimate winrates to compare skill levels and show that bonus pool doesn't work or that the ladder doesn't work, you're wrong.)
Ideally, someone who hosts a ranking site should calculate bonus pool points since the start of the ladder season, and then create a separate ladder for bonus pool-adjusted points. Basically, take score, add unaccrued bonus pool, subtract total bonus pool since start. Easy, and whoever does it first will seriously help curb the massive amount of misinformed posts.
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On September 21 2010 15:48 AcOrP wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2010 08:28 TheRabidDeer wrote:On September 21 2010 02:04 ToxNub wrote:On September 20 2010 17:55 paralleluniverse wrote:On September 20 2010 17:54 AcOrP wrote:
BP is good. If you play 50 games a day it doesn't affect you at all.
But If you play 3-4 games a day. This give you chance to stay at some decent spot in your division.
Yes it doesn't mean you are better if you have more points. But if diamond avg win% is 53%
you will get more points without the pool too. The more you play the more points you get.
So 4-5 games a day with 3w 2 lose is going to give you enought points so you are not very far behind more active players with 27:23 W:L TheRabidDeer: It is not a system that promotes "catching up". Everybody gets bonus points, which means that any distance that you might be away from somebody that is at your skill level is actually just there BECAUSE of the bonus points No. Please observe the following. 5 games per week (0% loss) = 50 points + 50 point bonus pool = 100 points 10 games per week (40% loss) = 10 points + 50 point bonus pool = 50 points 100 games per week (40% loss) = 100 points + 50 point bonus pool = 150 points 10:100 is a far bigger difference than 50:150. Thus 1. The system helps players who cannot play often (above a minimum threshold). 2. The system REALLY helps players who are ranked far too low for their skill, but cannot play too often. (In this example, doubling his gains). But sure, everyone is going to ignore this and just continue to post shit from their ass. (assume 10 points per win, 10 points per loss) With bonus pool: 10 games per week (40% loss) = 20 points + 50 point bonus pool = 70 points 100 games per week (40% loss) = 200 points + 50 point bonus pool = 250 points Point difference: 180 points Without bonus pool: 10 games per week (40% loss) = 20 points 100 games per week (40% loss) = 200 points Point difference: 180 points The point spread is the same in any and all cases. This should be obvious to you if you know anything at all about math since you are adding a constant number to everything. Realy ToxNub is right I don't understand why you care about the infloation at all everyone get the same bonus pool so it doesn't realy change the ranking. And just check the diamond league I am mid-low diamond with winrate 52-53% If someone 52% winrate play 100 games per day thats 48 points in 10 days this is 480 points. Someone else with 60% winrate play 10 games per day so 24 points in 10 days thats 240 points(this is the case without bonus pool)
so difference is 240 points ahead for the weaker skill player and more points
With bonus pool
100 games = 48 points + for example if the bonus pool can give you 5 double point games this is extra 60 points total 1080 points
10 game = 24 points +60 84= 840 in 10 days
now compare 1080 to 840
then compare 480 to 240
So do you still think that 52% winrate guy that can play 10 times more games should have double the points of someone with 60% winrate that can't play much. If we add few days without playing things get even worse without bonus pool. No, he wont have double the points of somebody with a 60% winrate that cant play much. You also cant look at just the win rate. The way things work is that you rise and rise in points until you are facing people that are near the same skill as you. Then you start to lose more, and eventually you reach a 50/50 win loss for that rating. However, it wont look like a 50% win/loss on your profile because while getting up to that point you might have had an 80% win/loss. So, the more you play just reduces your win/loss %. So these top players that you see with a 52% win rate with huge numbers of games played are only that low of a win % because of the number of games they have played. 70:250=1:3,5 20:200=1:10 point difference is 180 points in both cases Thats the simple idea of it. And there are players that maintain 60% winrate... diamond has alot skilled players that play more custom games than ladder. System will match them with equal but system may also match them with some weaker players this cause higher winratio. the 50/50 thing is joke...
Right, but the thing you need to remember is that 180 points can be made up in fewer games by a player who a) wins more and b) uses bonus points.
That's the complete and only reason for bonus points, as I've said probably about 5 times now: to help very skilled people who are placed too low due to their playtime.
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Probably it was written somewhere in this thread...I have just been promoted to Platinum from Gold and it seems ti me I've lost about 200 points...is this the way it should be or it is a bug???
Plus my bonus pool doesn't empty with the wins, but this is a well known bug in EU server...
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Can someone reply me please?
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On September 23 2010 02:32 coren wrote:
Can someone reply me please?
That is how it is. Everybody loses points when promoted.
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Would just like to state for the record that at this hour the current max bonus pool is 827. Game has been out for roughly 57 days. Thus you roughly gain 14.5 bonus points per day as opposed to the 12 points per day someone had suggested. I'm certain 827 is the max since my 2v2 random, 3v3 random, and 4v4 random all have 827 bonus pool (with no games played after placement).
Anyways, as for how good the current points system is? It definitely leaves a lot to be desired.
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Thing I hate the most is the amount of points you have to lose when you are slightly favored or favored. Vs how much you stand to gain from that match.
There should be a minimum amount of points like 10 to gain from each match. After all Blizzard is doing the matchmaking, so it's not going to set you up with a total scrub.
But the person you face could be someone terrible that hits you with an unexpected cheese. Sure it's part of the game and you should lose points, but you should be able to win the same amount of points as you stand to lose. I mostly cry about this just because of the map pool. On some maps you're much more likely to lose to a lower skilled player.
And it comes to such a point where the question is why do i have to play matches where i'm slightly favored at all? In some of those matches the potential gain is like 4 points, and the potential loss is something like 12 or 14.
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I would take out bonus point as a whole. Points would go into the system by people losing games but not being able to go below 0. This would make it so that people at the bottom would gain points as usual, but top diamond will creep up very slowly.
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Everyone has pointed out some valid points. But the think the whole system is much better than in sc1 ever was.
We have divisions, and moving up in your division is very rewarding.
We also have leagues, which at the very least give a rough estimation of overall skills.
Sure it has its weaknesses, but I'm sure with time and changes, it'll get better.
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On September 22 2010 00:58 ToxNub wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2010 15:48 AcOrP wrote:On September 21 2010 08:28 TheRabidDeer wrote:On September 21 2010 02:04 ToxNub wrote:On September 20 2010 17:55 paralleluniverse wrote:On September 20 2010 17:54 AcOrP wrote:
BP is good. If you play 50 games a day it doesn't affect you at all.
But If you play 3-4 games a day. This give you chance to stay at some decent spot in your division.
Yes it doesn't mean you are better if you have more points. But if diamond avg win% is 53%
you will get more points without the pool too. The more you play the more points you get.
So 4-5 games a day with 3w 2 lose is going to give you enought points so you are not very far behind more active players with 27:23 W:L TheRabidDeer: It is not a system that promotes "catching up". Everybody gets bonus points, which means that any distance that you might be away from somebody that is at your skill level is actually just there BECAUSE of the bonus points No. Please observe the following. 5 games per week (0% loss) = 50 points + 50 point bonus pool = 100 points 10 games per week (40% loss) = 10 points + 50 point bonus pool = 50 points 100 games per week (40% loss) = 100 points + 50 point bonus pool = 150 points 10:100 is a far bigger difference than 50:150. Thus 1. The system helps players who cannot play often (above a minimum threshold). 2. The system REALLY helps players who are ranked far too low for their skill, but cannot play too often. (In this example, doubling his gains). But sure, everyone is going to ignore this and just continue to post shit from their ass. (assume 10 points per win, 10 points per loss) With bonus pool: 10 games per week (40% loss) = 20 points + 50 point bonus pool = 70 points 100 games per week (40% loss) = 200 points + 50 point bonus pool = 250 points Point difference: 180 points Without bonus pool: 10 games per week (40% loss) = 20 points 100 games per week (40% loss) = 200 points Point difference: 180 points The point spread is the same in any and all cases. This should be obvious to you if you know anything at all about math since you are adding a constant number to everything. Realy ToxNub is right I don't understand why you care about the infloation at all everyone get the same bonus pool so it doesn't realy change the ranking. And just check the diamond league I am mid-low diamond with winrate 52-53% If someone 52% winrate play 100 games per day thats 48 points in 10 days this is 480 points. Someone else with 60% winrate play 10 games per day so 24 points in 10 days thats 240 points(this is the case without bonus pool)
so difference is 240 points ahead for the weaker skill player and more points
With bonus pool
100 games = 48 points + for example if the bonus pool can give you 5 double point games this is extra 60 points total 1080 points
10 game = 24 points +60 84= 840 in 10 days
now compare 1080 to 840
then compare 480 to 240
So do you still think that 52% winrate guy that can play 10 times more games should have double the points of someone with 60% winrate that can't play much. If we add few days without playing things get even worse without bonus pool. No, he wont have double the points of somebody with a 60% winrate that cant play much. You also cant look at just the win rate. The way things work is that you rise and rise in points until you are facing people that are near the same skill as you. Then you start to lose more, and eventually you reach a 50/50 win loss for that rating. However, it wont look like a 50% win/loss on your profile because while getting up to that point you might have had an 80% win/loss. So, the more you play just reduces your win/loss %. So these top players that you see with a 52% win rate with huge numbers of games played are only that low of a win % because of the number of games they have played. 70:250=1:3,5 20:200=1:10 point difference is 180 points in both cases Thats the simple idea of it. And there are players that maintain 60% winrate... diamond has alot skilled players that play more custom games than ladder. System will match them with equal but system may also match them with some weaker players this cause higher winratio. the 50/50 thing is joke... Right, but the thing you need to remember is that 180 points can be made up in fewer games by a player who a) wins more and b) uses bonus points. That's the complete and only reason for bonus points, as I've said probably about 5 times now: to help very skilled people who are placed too low due to their playtime.
This is exactly right. It helps if you can win. Posts saying "it's so easy to shoot up the ladder.." forget that you actually need to win games in order for that to happen. I believe points aren't completely accurate, but they do help determine someone's level of skill - I also believe people who don't think it gauges skill level are the ones who have point totals less than they'd like to have. If you're 1,300+ you've demonstrated an ability that you know how to win, regardless of bonus pool.
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United States12275 Posts
On September 23 2010 05:55 Bairemuth wrote:
Would just like to state for the record that at this hour the current max bonus pool is 827. Game has been out for roughly 57 days. Thus you roughly gain 14.5 bonus points per day as opposed to the 12 points per day someone had suggested. I'm certain 827 is the max since my 2v2 random, 3v3 random, and 4v4 random all have 827 bonus pool (with no games played after placement).
Anyways, as for how good the current points system is? It definitely leaves a lot to be desired.
Except people started with more than 0 bonus pool on launch day. There was either some constant that it started at, or the servers were turned on and ready before launch day (or both).
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so basically the bonus point system is an incentive for casual players to ladder and gain some points...which means it is a good system that Blizzard has implemented. If i was Blizzard, I would implement a system that pleases 99% of the users rather than the other 1%.
At the end of the day...that 1% of the players will play the damn game regardless whether the point system is flawed or not  it's more important to appeal to that 99% of the people who WILL NOT play if they don't like the system.
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they should take away the bonus points, so that there will be a "top point level" like in wow,
almost never went above 3k points and the top top players were 2600+ no higher,
would be nice to have it like that tbh
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EPT
