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On August 25 2010 02:49 Puosu wrote:
Top SC2 players have played for a few months, most top BW players have played for nearly a decade. It makes complete sense for it to be easier to reach the skill level of those of the best when the best aren't really (relatively) that good yet. This doesn't change the fact that diamond consists of the top 5% (iirc.) of the player pool.
As the average skill level evolves we will notice the system becoming more and more like iccup's, a system that fucks up the casual player's enjoyment because even the lowest skill tier is populated by experienced players, assuming SC2 doesn't get a constant stream of new users.
It's now 8%. Steadily increasing.
But I'd have to disagree with the iccup thing. SC2 is way too massive, the amount of casual players far far far outnumbers the amount of people who actually research or go on teamliquid to find out new strats. The average skill level will always evolve, though because of Blizzard's system, you will always move up, not down. Meaning that if you are a 'casual' player, you'll very unlikely face experienced players as their division can never fall, rather it'd just increase.
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On August 25 2010 02:47 roofs wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2010 02:44 vyyye wrote:On August 25 2010 02:41 Dragonsven wrote:On August 25 2010 02:37 vyyye wrote:On August 25 2010 02:34 Dragonsven wrote:On August 25 2010 02:33 roofs wrote:On August 25 2010 02:28 Dragonsven wrote:
Yet another post describing why diamond players are not good and only old school players should comment on anything. I was expecting a rule on post count by the end. You should realize this kind of elitism does not work and you will end up driving all the new posters away once the initial boost from SC2 ends. I don't think you read the post closely enough. 'this kind of elitism does not work'? He's warning the waves of new SC2 players not to listen to the thousands of mid level diamond players claiming to know everything there is. There's alot of bad information and he's simply telling the truth about how alot of these all-in diamond players havent truly explored the game. He's not saying that, he's saying their opinion doesn't matter and is probably wrong. No, he clearly states that a high ranked player will in 99% cases be right if he contradicts the mid diamond player and that the credentials "I'm in diamond" doesn't really mean much. He even mentioned that lower level players can have valuable insight in the OP. Look, I don't want to argue this all day. I just think it was a post that didn't really need to written. All it results in is insulting some players who just want to theorycraft but now won't because "they're just diamond players." It reeks of elitism. If you were so dumb as to take a random diamond player over a professional gamer's opinion than you are just stupid. You don't need a post telling you not to do that. A lot of posters are stupid and need a post to tell them that. Just have a look in any of the Terran imbalance threads, the quality of some posts is downright absurd. The term 'elitism' gets thrown aroudn a lot, but is it that bad? The most 'elitist' board I've ever found is "Elitist Jerks" which is one of the more pleasant forum experiences as the absolute majority of the posts were worth reading. Much rather have that than the current "I'm a 600p diamond zerg so I know terrans fucking imbalanced ffs". Agreed. Forgot all about Elitist Jerks. They are the perfect example of how good a forum can be when rational elitism is an accepted attitude. Anyways, I'm pretty sure Dragonsven misunderstood the post, or read it from the wrong perspective. I don't see where he got the idea of how 'he's insulting people who just want to theorycraft'. It's the opposite, he's insulting the people who take so much pride in their 500-600 diamond ratings.
I don't think TL should become like EJ. EJ is... inaccessible. I think that Teamliquid, as the premier english starcraft site, should realy try foster english acceptance of SC, adding more players and hooking players who are mid-ranked. EJ primarily caters to its existing members.
I've seen people who will say on one hand "Blizzard should do more to foster E-sports" but at the same time say "TL should only be open to X point diamond players!". It boggles my mind at the cravenness of these contradictory opinions, where people want others to make great things happen for them and then they can just skim the cream off the top.
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I think what OP wrote is perfectly right, a gold player could understand much much more than some mid level diamond, but this can go on that a mid level diamond could understand more than a top tier player, but how would you know who's right?
I mean everyone would agree with the "pro" guy but the only way is testing it yourself in hundreds of games.
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Though what you say has merit, your argument faces the potential threat of self-defeating itself, unless you yourself are one of the top diamonds that you describe in your post.
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Ya I like it when people give advice then say I am diamond in 3v3 or 4v4 or something like that makes what they say worth more. Being diamond in team games is pretty pointless especially with the way they set up the pairings. As for people in 1v1 I think I value how many games they have played more then rank however many people just cheese all time so you have to take it with a grain of salt. I think the biggest indication that the advice is bad is when they say to do something without any reasoning behind it. Like I was told by some player that I could have up to 30 workers at a base and I just blindly believed it cause it seemed reasonable... However after testing it with a normal base set up 24 workers was like the max with gas.
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Canada1637 Posts
I am diamond with 1k points, my game feels like its FULL of leaks and I am really not very good... Its hard to recognize that I might actually be getting decent? But I don't know. I watch replays of mine from ladder and opponents sometimes do like 10 pylon and 10 OL as part of standard builds, don't hotkey units.. etc, people are just not very good yet is all I can really say....Myself too, I basically don't hotkey unit producing structures, and when I do I rarely use them... Yet still, I am 1k points, which is high-ish diamond...
It will be interesting to see where things stand in 6 months to a year.
All that being said I do think its important for people to post what league/points they have so that you have a reference for where they are coming for, not to brag or demean people.
edit: More what confuses me are how people can have 200+ games under their belt and still be stuck in gold/plat...
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On August 25 2010 02:52 Saracen wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2010 02:49 sikyon wrote:On August 25 2010 02:43 Saracen wrote:On August 25 2010 02:37 sikyon wrote:
I'm boiling down your post to the premise that profesional SC players have greater insights than your regular SC player.
Sounds about right. But you've forgotten 1 key thing:
If a 500pt diamond player posts that some sort of strat is good and you think he's full of it because he's not Idra, well that might be true. However, to a plat player he clearly knows what he's doing relativily speaking and his insight is still valuable.
People posting their division/points are not just empty boasts about where they are and why you should take them seriously. It's just information that tells you what level of play this is working for.
Your post also smacks of elitism, and somewhat smells like it's trying to attack players instead of strategies. That's a bad idea. In my opinion it's never acceptable to say "oh look you're only in gold your opinion doesn't matter". It is much more appropriate to say "nope, that won't work and this is why: ..."
The ladder system is, and always will be, relative. If you don't find someone impressive relative to yourself, you should just not take his advice. It will probably be useful to someone below him. People don't jump from silver to diamond by using diamond strategies all of a sudden. They do it by going gold, then plat, then diamond, whatever that entails. This is true, and I agree with your entire post (sorry if you feel it was elitist). The problem is there's a lot of people saying "nope, that won't work and this is why" without even trying the strategy out (i.e. mindless theorycrafting). On the other hand, a top player will probably have experienced the strategy before firsthand and know exactly why it doesn't work. So he'll be able truthfully to say "nope, that won't work and this is why." Well your post wasn't really elitist, I guess I just read into it too much  It was very well argued. I agree that there is perhaps too little experience and too much bluster here much of the time. But I think that's something fundamental to the internet and message boards. I mean I totally agree that a pro player has better insight than a regular player, if by nothing more than sheer experiance (considering how many games they play). Points are not an inidicator that you are some sort of fantastic SC god, just that you are there, you are probably better than someone with less points (All things equal) and you have an opinion which is perhaps backed up by experience. Better by what standards? I'm trying to argue that even though you have more points, that doesn't necessarily mean you understand the game better. Just that you know how to win better. And I think that over time, the person who understands the game better will eventually grow to know how to win better as well. 
I think your hypothesis is correct, as well. However - how will you eventually compare that person who knows more to the person who can just win? By seeing who wins! The standard of measurement here is the same - points. Sure, as the game evolves people will go up and down. But I would perfer to think of it as natural selection - right now winning by 4gate may put you on top of the food chain, but later winning by macro might put you on top of the food chain. That does't matter - as it is, the strategies that matter, that need to be defeated, are the ones which are dominate right now (ie 4gate).
Therefore I postulate that you are trying to enforce some sort of artificial, cooperative evolution. I, on the other hand, believe that the natural selection of player skill and evolving stratgies (ie everyone learns how to defend 4gate) will take their own course regardless of an intervening hand in the matter!
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On August 25 2010 02:55 Ghazwan wrote:
Though what you say has merit, your argument faces the potential threat of self-defeating itself, unless you yourself are one of the top diamonds that you describe in your post.
That's pretty great!
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infinity21
Canada6683 Posts
On August 25 2010 02:55 Ghazwan wrote:
Though what you say has merit, your argument faces the potential threat of self-defeating itself, unless you yourself are one of the top diamonds that you describe in your post.
As the 115th ranked player on NA, I can testify that saracen is a badass zerg player.
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On August 25 2010 02:58 Dragonsven wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2010 02:55 Ghazwan wrote:
Though what you say has merit, your argument faces the potential threat of self-defeating itself, unless you yourself are one of the top diamonds that you describe in your post.
That's pretty great!
No, because he isn't giving SC2 strategy advice.
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Rank and score is SC2 version of WoW Gearscore.
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On August 25 2010 02:54 sikyon wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2010 02:47 roofs wrote:On August 25 2010 02:44 vyyye wrote:On August 25 2010 02:41 Dragonsven wrote:On August 25 2010 02:37 vyyye wrote:On August 25 2010 02:34 Dragonsven wrote:On August 25 2010 02:33 roofs wrote:On August 25 2010 02:28 Dragonsven wrote:
Yet another post describing why diamond players are not good and only old school players should comment on anything. I was expecting a rule on post count by the end. You should realize this kind of elitism does not work and you will end up driving all the new posters away once the initial boost from SC2 ends. I don't think you read the post closely enough. 'this kind of elitism does not work'? He's warning the waves of new SC2 players not to listen to the thousands of mid level diamond players claiming to know everything there is. There's alot of bad information and he's simply telling the truth about how alot of these all-in diamond players havent truly explored the game. He's not saying that, he's saying their opinion doesn't matter and is probably wrong. No, he clearly states that a high ranked player will in 99% cases be right if he contradicts the mid diamond player and that the credentials "I'm in diamond" doesn't really mean much. He even mentioned that lower level players can have valuable insight in the OP. Look, I don't want to argue this all day. I just think it was a post that didn't really need to written. All it results in is insulting some players who just want to theorycraft but now won't because "they're just diamond players." It reeks of elitism. If you were so dumb as to take a random diamond player over a professional gamer's opinion than you are just stupid. You don't need a post telling you not to do that. A lot of posters are stupid and need a post to tell them that. Just have a look in any of the Terran imbalance threads, the quality of some posts is downright absurd. The term 'elitism' gets thrown aroudn a lot, but is it that bad? The most 'elitist' board I've ever found is "Elitist Jerks" which is one of the more pleasant forum experiences as the absolute majority of the posts were worth reading. Much rather have that than the current "I'm a 600p diamond zerg so I know terrans fucking imbalanced ffs". Agreed. Forgot all about Elitist Jerks. They are the perfect example of how good a forum can be when rational elitism is an accepted attitude. Anyways, I'm pretty sure Dragonsven misunderstood the post, or read it from the wrong perspective. I don't see where he got the idea of how 'he's insulting people who just want to theorycraft'. It's the opposite, he's insulting the people who take so much pride in their 500-600 diamond ratings. I don't think TL should become like EJ. EJ is... inaccessible. I think that Teamliquid, as the premier english starcraft site, should realy try foster english acceptance of SC, adding more players and hooking players who are mid-ranked. EJ primarily caters to its existing members. I've seen people who will say on one hand "Blizzard should do more to foster E-sports" but at the same time say "TL should only be open to X point diamond players!". It boggles my mind at the cravenness of these contradictory opinions, where people want others to make great things happen for them and then they can just skim the cream off the top.
EJ works because of how creditable their posters are. By saying anyone can post you lose alot of creditability which is what you have on the offical forums. I was never into theorycrafting when I played WoW but I read EJ because it was like a manual on how to get better.
I think the Strategy Forum should take the shape of what EJ has with it's class discussion threads. The genearl SC2 forums are more for BSing about SC2. The Strategy Forum needs to be tightly regulated with by a fuehrer style mod team.
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On August 25 2010 02:34 Chill wrote:
The Starcraft 2 community in general just needs some more humility across the board and we'd be good.
i had my humility with an attempt to bring forth a (seem to be) fail strat.
But the OP was right and has said what most of us have been thinking :p
although lately i did see some posts of people telling they are 600 diamond and thus not a very good player, so not everyone here thinks they are the shit.
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On August 25 2010 02:54 sikyon wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2010 02:47 roofs wrote:On August 25 2010 02:44 vyyye wrote:On August 25 2010 02:41 Dragonsven wrote:On August 25 2010 02:37 vyyye wrote:On August 25 2010 02:34 Dragonsven wrote:On August 25 2010 02:33 roofs wrote:On August 25 2010 02:28 Dragonsven wrote:
Yet another post describing why diamond players are not good and only old school players should comment on anything. I was expecting a rule on post count by the end. You should realize this kind of elitism does not work and you will end up driving all the new posters away once the initial boost from SC2 ends. I don't think you read the post closely enough. 'this kind of elitism does not work'? He's warning the waves of new SC2 players not to listen to the thousands of mid level diamond players claiming to know everything there is. There's alot of bad information and he's simply telling the truth about how alot of these all-in diamond players havent truly explored the game. He's not saying that, he's saying their opinion doesn't matter and is probably wrong. No, he clearly states that a high ranked player will in 99% cases be right if he contradicts the mid diamond player and that the credentials "I'm in diamond" doesn't really mean much. He even mentioned that lower level players can have valuable insight in the OP. Look, I don't want to argue this all day. I just think it was a post that didn't really need to written. All it results in is insulting some players who just want to theorycraft but now won't because "they're just diamond players." It reeks of elitism. If you were so dumb as to take a random diamond player over a professional gamer's opinion than you are just stupid. You don't need a post telling you not to do that. A lot of posters are stupid and need a post to tell them that. Just have a look in any of the Terran imbalance threads, the quality of some posts is downright absurd. The term 'elitism' gets thrown aroudn a lot, but is it that bad? The most 'elitist' board I've ever found is "Elitist Jerks" which is one of the more pleasant forum experiences as the absolute majority of the posts were worth reading. Much rather have that than the current "I'm a 600p diamond zerg so I know terrans fucking imbalanced ffs". Agreed. Forgot all about Elitist Jerks. They are the perfect example of how good a forum can be when rational elitism is an accepted attitude. Anyways, I'm pretty sure Dragonsven misunderstood the post, or read it from the wrong perspective. I don't see where he got the idea of how 'he's insulting people who just want to theorycraft'. It's the opposite, he's insulting the people who take so much pride in their 500-600 diamond ratings. I don't think TL should become like EJ. EJ is... inaccessible. I think that Teamliquid, as the premier english starcraft site, should realy try foster english acceptance of SC, adding more players and hooking players who are mid-ranked. EJ primarily caters to its existing members. I've seen people who will say on one hand "Blizzard should do more to foster E-sports" but at the same time say "TL should only be open to X point diamond players!". It boggles my mind at the cravenness of these contradictory opinions, where people want others to make great things happen for them and then they can just skim the cream off the top.
Yup. I assure you that the people who want TL to just be accessible to high level players, or want TL to be "Brood War old school" are a small and perhaps too vocal minority. The vast majority of TL wants and embraces new users. The problem lies when new users step out of line because they perhaps don't know TL's history or culture. It's a problem of respect. Respect the moderators and respect the known players because they have done a hell of a lot for the community, the community that the new user is just starting to be a part of.
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On August 25 2010 02:59 SuperGnu wrote:
Rank and score is SC2 version of WoW Gearscore.
That's a really retarded comparison.
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I'm only platinum but I have to agree with you on this one.
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I find a lot of the low diamond players are just those who get away with cheese/all-ins.
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So this is just for the too noisy diamond players who think they really are something?
Good idea, the forums wont get full of useless egoism / general stupidness.
Anyway I think all these rankings are really useless as the ladder what it is, what matters is the performance in tourneys.
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From my experience about the people i know that play SC2.
EVERYONE with 2 working hands, that is not blind and puts a little bit of effort in to SC2 is Diamond atm (including me).
Most fun are Protoss players... I wonder how high the % of people that only play 4 Gate or 3 Gate into Voidray.
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On August 25 2010 02:46 Dragonsven wrote:
I personally could care less how much or little elitism exists on this forum. But the people who run this site should care very much because it will determine how well they retain new members.
Anyone who is offended by the supposed "elitism" of this forum is probably not someone the site owners care to have around anyway. Personally, I like having pro players give their opinions, even if it is "no you're wrong and have no clue wtf your'e talking about". You can do one of two things with that sort of statement. Cry of elitism, or *learn* something from it. The good players will do the later.
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EPT
