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On March 04 2011 19:27 Axeinst wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2011 14:47 Kuri wrote:I think we should just accept that SC2 and BW are completely different games and require different skill sets. You can be C+ in BW and be stuck in Diamond in SC2 (haha trust me.. i know  ). BW is a little more forgiving in the sense that you can makeup for subpar tactics with good mechanics. This is also the reason why BW is a harder game. Conversely, SC2 is a game where mechanics, although still very necessary, are easy to master. Thus, SC2 focuses more on a different aspect of the game: tactics. Mistakes in BO and strategy is very unforgiving and often times it is impossible to comeback from such errors. So if you wanna compare SC2 ranks to ICCup ranks, gotta ask yourselves the following question: Did I get to B- because I had better mechanics or was I tactically a better player. I know a B Toss player who had 90 apm... basically he wins with tactics and timings. He would be a strong SC2 player. I, on the other hand, relied on mechanics to win my games in BW. I have yet to learn about unit composition and tactics in SC2. That is probably why I'm still in Diamond. Build orders are part of mechanics. Your post does not really make sense. First you are telling that sc2 is more about tactics and not mechanics, but then you are saying that mistakes in build order is crucial.
He's saying the choice of BO is more important. At this stage in the game where there isn't really as much of a standard strategy as in BW, there is a much higher chance of a BO loss, which is not mechanics, it's strat.
Carrying out the BOs is part of mechanics, but the choice of them isn't.
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On March 04 2011 14:47 ZarMulix wrote:
I find it curious that most people that I played in silver had 100+ apm while I noticed a dramatic drop when playing gold and platinum players (take it for what it's worth, yes there are those 400apm spammers who can barely 4gate- I played one).
This is probably because 100+ APM isn't really necessary to go from silver to gold/plat. Knowing what you're doing is way more important. A lack of basic understanding is pretty much a feature of lower league players, sorry.
On March 04 2011 19:24 Axeinst wrote:
You totally forget, that lower league players may watch more tournament games etc and thus have good amount of knowledge.
This isn't actually that valuable in terms of understanding the game.
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On March 04 2011 20:37 Bubble-T wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2011 19:24 Axeinst wrote:
You totally forget, that lower league players may watch more tournament games etc and thus have good amount of knowledge. This isn't actually that valuable in terms of understanding the game.
Well, that's obviously not true. Of course watching tournaments is helpful and increases your knowledge base. However, I will say that there is a huge difference between observation and understanding and between understanding and execution. Although there is often a lack of understanding in lower level players its usually flawed execution and poor mechanics that hold them back.
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I'm a lower level player (platin) and watch alot more VoDs/Tournaments than playing. I play max 10 1v1 games/week but i watch nearly every GSL/IEM/D9D/YouTube VoD :O
It's more fun watching Pro's than failing at Ladder :D
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so where do 3k diamond players stand?
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3k diamond is probably something like D i'm guessing as of right now.
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On March 04 2011 21:07 Lori_ftw wrote:
I'm a lower level player (platin) and watch alot more VoDs/Tournaments than playing. I play max 10 1v1 games/week but i watch nearly every GSL/IEM/D9D/YouTube VoD :O
It's more fun watching Pro's than failing at Ladder :D
this id rather watch listen and read top level players then play myself i still do play custom games a bit but not like hrs a day.
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On March 04 2011 14:23 rauk wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2011 14:12 bkrow wrote:On March 04 2011 14:00 evanthebouncy! wrote:
I think to put it this way is best:
On ICCup, Koreans are there as well.
On SC2 ladder, in NA server, there are no koreans.
So if you imagine what A rank on ICCup means... The skill difference between Korean and Foreign BW players is not the same as the skill difference (if any) between Korean and Foreign SC2 players.. I don't think that can be ignored.. it's still there.. look at KR's korean account, he can't even make top 200 there but i'd put him as a top 5 terran on the NA server.
The lag is horrible on KR from NA. Its like playing on regular bnet on low lat.
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i too really enjoy talking about the game/watching. my mechanics are pretty terrible and my apm is apalling but im a high diamond player playing 1/2 games a day in 1v1 because im so into the community aspect. so although i consider myself knowledgable on the game would anyone take a thread made by me seriously?
part of a forum is justifying what you say to people who know less than you. the idea qxc posted in the original post many months ago is actually pretty terrible, and the guy who got banned on the first page was right.
how did half the "good" players get good? they were probably ignored on here for months by people with a broodwar background, because they were "new" or never played on iccup. they probably only made it big when a replay of them beating a big name surfaced, anything that stifles lower players stifles the pros of tomorrow, and the innovation of today. do i need to tell you my point score or mmr to argue that qxc is wrong? does the fact hes famous mean im wrong? i dont think so, and i dont think anyone else does either. so yes, point score means F A, but so does peoples name.
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How many players on the old ICCUP would actually get to "A-" in a given season?
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Im a mid diamond player only because i chose to play with friends more then play on the ladder. I hit 1 on the diamond ladder when i was playing a lot of ladder games and i was on a lay offf from work. Since then work has picked up and my skills have gone down do to the lack of playing, more friends have bought the game and i hardly ladder. Thus droping from top 5 in my division. So not all mid and low level diamond players fall under this post i believe. I have a real good understanding of the game and its timings and watch alot of pro vods. Which helps dramaticly, played broodwar for a couple of years before sc2 came out. Im no pro by any means but with a lot of practice and i mean alot i feel i can compete with them and many others could too.
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Does it sound reasonable to have some kind of tie-in with SC2 ranks? So that say in a certain thread players of X ranking post here, while still being viewable by all? I know Segregation isn't exactly right, but I feel this would allow players of equal skill 'rankings' (this doesn't really represent true skill on all level, but is the most accessible ranking available) to meet and chat while say newer players learn from older players.
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On August 25 2010 02:19 Saracen wrote:
You see, there's a huge difference between how much you win and how much you understand the game. Points and ranking are a good indicator of how much you win, but they do jack shit when it comes to reflecting your game knowledge. Here's a little rundown of the correlation between leagues and understanding of the game:
Bronze: I know what some of the units do.
Silver: I know what a build order is.
Gold: I have a build order for most of the matchups.
Platinum (not stuck-in-platinum-because-stupid-system-won't-promote-me but actual platinum): I have played through my build order more than twenty times.
Diamond: Anything above that. I have 100+ wins in 1v1 since release (and at least 100 1v1 wins during the beta), I use build orders, watch Day[9] and GSL – and I am still in Silver. I played some players who were at the top of the Silver league. I have no chance to beat them. Silver covers a great bandwidth of skill.
On August 25 2010 02:19 Saracen wrote:
If you are at all familiar with Brood War and iCCup rankings, here's what it would look like:
Bronze: I play B.net custom games. I can give the computer a good fight.
Silver: I play Fastest Possible Map Ever.
Gold: I play BGH and some low maps. I know who Boxer is.
Platinum: Computer (E) rank
Low diamond (~300): D-
Mid diamond (~600): D
High diamond (~900): D+ through C
Top diamond (~1200): B In 5 or 10 years, it probably will be that way.
On August 25 2010 02:19 Saracen wrote:
One of my biggest pet peeves in the Starcraft 2 strategy forums is when someone contradicts a legitimately good player. If someone is incompetent in a field, he cannot see that he actually is incompetent. So he states his opinion with much confidence and then makes up excuses that the pro player is just whining. For my part I have learned that it is worth it, to just think about a progamer statement. If I still cannot understand it, I am probably not experienced enough.
edit: I am actually that a nub, that I didn't realize the age of the OP.
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On March 04 2011 19:34 Axeinst wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2011 19:32 Turgid wrote:On March 04 2011 19:24 Axeinst wrote:On March 04 2011 14:56 chenchen wrote:On March 04 2011 14:47 ZarMulix wrote:
I probably shouldn't have but I actually get offended when I see what people think lower league players can and cannot do. Before even going into this, almost no one who hasn't recently been in a lower league has any credibility to speak about this because when's the last time they laddered in bronze, silver, gold, etc? I assume most people speak with no experience on the matter and it doesn't make sense logically either. It has been established that people in lower leauges have mainly two problems: macro and build order execution.
Since everyone on battlenet 2.0 has internet, EVERYONE playing starcraft has the ability to access sources such as TL, other strategy forums, replays of pro players, advice givers like Day[9], etc. I assume the vast majority of people who access this information is made up of people who are looking to improve and they spend most of this time researching rather than playing, which is what they would be doing if they knew how to improve (example: professional gamers).
I just recently got promoted to gold league and am playing mostly platinum players. However, I play barely once a week (maybe 3-4 games every a week on average) when I can, and spend most of my time overcoming my rustiness. I know what a build order is (in fact I know many, maybe too many), I use hotkeys, macro while microing battles, play reactively (see: zerg) and have my own distinctive play style in development. So has every player I've played from bronze to platinum and I really have no idea why people cite "a friend they introduced to the game" as a player of the average skill level of the league they're in.
The lower leagues have their share of people who don't know what they're doing, but most people I played were people who knew exactly what they were doing, but keep playing other people who also know what they're doing and therefore don't clobber the opposition. I find it curious that most people that I played in silver had 100+ apm while I noticed a dramatic drop when playing gold and platinum players (take it for what it's worth, yes there are those 400apm spammers who can barely 4gate- I played one).
The biggest problem accounting for lack of ability to win I see from lower league players is a two fold problem. One aspect is perceived knowledge and the other is lack of practice. Honestly how many of the lower league players who complain about losing have actually played more than (making up some number) 400 games? Lower league players are bombarded with ideas and strategies from the venues that they were introduced to the game in (professionals) and have simply not played enough to know first hand how these strategies come into play.
That doesn't mean a lower league player doesn't understand how things work, why things work, or can't offer insight into the game (see:human with average intelligence). I do feel that discussions about already refined strategies should respect the thoughts of those who have more experience with it more. However remember that a lower league player may very well be more intelligent than you are and simply does not spend as much time playing Starcraft (humanitarian efforts, research, con artistry).
So basically I'm just pleading for everyone to have a little more respect for lower leaguers who attempt to be part of a community. If they're here it's because they actually care to increase their knowledge and understanding of the game and I'm not a fan of the dismissal and elitism that I see sometimes. Do you play more? Certainly. Are you better at Starcraft than me? I certainly hope so or else all that effort and time was put to waste. Does that mean my opinion isn't valid because I'm not of the same ranking? That has to be decided based on more information. The problem is that while lower league playes CAN offer insight as to what works at their level, they can't offer insight as to what works at the highest level of play, which is the level of play that much of TL is concerned with. They simply do not have a good enough understanding of the game to offer any valuable ideas. Whatever they can point out that does happen to be useful can be pointed out by a high level player just as easily. You totally forget, that lower league players may watch more tournament games etc and thus have good amount of knowledge. And intelligence plays big role here too. However, in my personal experience, if you understand the game at a diamond or higher level, you will play at that level. I have never encountered a silver or gold player who I felt knew a considerable amount about the game. It takes alot of games to get promoted and if mechanics are very subpar, it is hard to advance.
You can be masters in less than 50 games, and anyone can become mechanically good enough to reach at least plat or diamond in a very short amount of time. SC2 is not a mechanically demanding game at all.
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On March 05 2011 01:20 Turgid wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2011 19:34 Axeinst wrote:On March 04 2011 19:32 Turgid wrote:On March 04 2011 19:24 Axeinst wrote:On March 04 2011 14:56 chenchen wrote:On March 04 2011 14:47 ZarMulix wrote:
I probably shouldn't have but I actually get offended when I see what people think lower league players can and cannot do. Before even going into this, almost no one who hasn't recently been in a lower league has any credibility to speak about this because when's the last time they laddered in bronze, silver, gold, etc? I assume most people speak with no experience on the matter and it doesn't make sense logically either. It has been established that people in lower leauges have mainly two problems: macro and build order execution.
Since everyone on battlenet 2.0 has internet, EVERYONE playing starcraft has the ability to access sources such as TL, other strategy forums, replays of pro players, advice givers like Day[9], etc. I assume the vast majority of people who access this information is made up of people who are looking to improve and they spend most of this time researching rather than playing, which is what they would be doing if they knew how to improve (example: professional gamers).
I just recently got promoted to gold league and am playing mostly platinum players. However, I play barely once a week (maybe 3-4 games every a week on average) when I can, and spend most of my time overcoming my rustiness. I know what a build order is (in fact I know many, maybe too many), I use hotkeys, macro while microing battles, play reactively (see: zerg) and have my own distinctive play style in development. So has every player I've played from bronze to platinum and I really have no idea why people cite "a friend they introduced to the game" as a player of the average skill level of the league they're in.
The lower leagues have their share of people who don't know what they're doing, but most people I played were people who knew exactly what they were doing, but keep playing other people who also know what they're doing and therefore don't clobber the opposition. I find it curious that most people that I played in silver had 100+ apm while I noticed a dramatic drop when playing gold and platinum players (take it for what it's worth, yes there are those 400apm spammers who can barely 4gate- I played one).
The biggest problem accounting for lack of ability to win I see from lower league players is a two fold problem. One aspect is perceived knowledge and the other is lack of practice. Honestly how many of the lower league players who complain about losing have actually played more than (making up some number) 400 games? Lower league players are bombarded with ideas and strategies from the venues that they were introduced to the game in (professionals) and have simply not played enough to know first hand how these strategies come into play.
That doesn't mean a lower league player doesn't understand how things work, why things work, or can't offer insight into the game (see:human with average intelligence). I do feel that discussions about already refined strategies should respect the thoughts of those who have more experience with it more. However remember that a lower league player may very well be more intelligent than you are and simply does not spend as much time playing Starcraft (humanitarian efforts, research, con artistry).
So basically I'm just pleading for everyone to have a little more respect for lower leaguers who attempt to be part of a community. If they're here it's because they actually care to increase their knowledge and understanding of the game and I'm not a fan of the dismissal and elitism that I see sometimes. Do you play more? Certainly. Are you better at Starcraft than me? I certainly hope so or else all that effort and time was put to waste. Does that mean my opinion isn't valid because I'm not of the same ranking? That has to be decided based on more information. The problem is that while lower league playes CAN offer insight as to what works at their level, they can't offer insight as to what works at the highest level of play, which is the level of play that much of TL is concerned with. They simply do not have a good enough understanding of the game to offer any valuable ideas. Whatever they can point out that does happen to be useful can be pointed out by a high level player just as easily. You totally forget, that lower league players may watch more tournament games etc and thus have good amount of knowledge. And intelligence plays big role here too. However, in my personal experience, if you understand the game at a diamond or higher level, you will play at that level. I have never encountered a silver or gold player who I felt knew a considerable amount about the game. It takes alot of games to get promoted and if mechanics are very subpar, it is hard to advance. You can be masters in less than 50 games, and anyone can become mechanically good enough to reach at least plat or diamond in a very short amount of time. SC2 is not a mechanically demanding game at all.
Compared to SC1 no it's not. Compared to most other competitive video games, yes it is.
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On March 04 2011 23:37 MGHova wrote:
3k diamond is probably something like D i'm guessing as of right now.
haha:p I'm guessing it's more like C-/C ^^
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On March 05 2011 01:20 Turgid wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2011 19:34 Axeinst wrote:On March 04 2011 19:32 Turgid wrote:On March 04 2011 19:24 Axeinst wrote:On March 04 2011 14:56 chenchen wrote:On March 04 2011 14:47 ZarMulix wrote:
I probably shouldn't have but I actually get offended when I see what people think lower league players can and cannot do. Before even going into this, almost no one who hasn't recently been in a lower league has any credibility to speak about this because when's the last time they laddered in bronze, silver, gold, etc? I assume most people speak with no experience on the matter and it doesn't make sense logically either. It has been established that people in lower leauges have mainly two problems: macro and build order execution.
Since everyone on battlenet 2.0 has internet, EVERYONE playing starcraft has the ability to access sources such as TL, other strategy forums, replays of pro players, advice givers like Day[9], etc. I assume the vast majority of people who access this information is made up of people who are looking to improve and they spend most of this time researching rather than playing, which is what they would be doing if they knew how to improve (example: professional gamers).
I just recently got promoted to gold league and am playing mostly platinum players. However, I play barely once a week (maybe 3-4 games every a week on average) when I can, and spend most of my time overcoming my rustiness. I know what a build order is (in fact I know many, maybe too many), I use hotkeys, macro while microing battles, play reactively (see: zerg) and have my own distinctive play style in development. So has every player I've played from bronze to platinum and I really have no idea why people cite "a friend they introduced to the game" as a player of the average skill level of the league they're in.
The lower leagues have their share of people who don't know what they're doing, but most people I played were people who knew exactly what they were doing, but keep playing other people who also know what they're doing and therefore don't clobber the opposition. I find it curious that most people that I played in silver had 100+ apm while I noticed a dramatic drop when playing gold and platinum players (take it for what it's worth, yes there are those 400apm spammers who can barely 4gate- I played one).
The biggest problem accounting for lack of ability to win I see from lower league players is a two fold problem. One aspect is perceived knowledge and the other is lack of practice. Honestly how many of the lower league players who complain about losing have actually played more than (making up some number) 400 games? Lower league players are bombarded with ideas and strategies from the venues that they were introduced to the game in (professionals) and have simply not played enough to know first hand how these strategies come into play.
That doesn't mean a lower league player doesn't understand how things work, why things work, or can't offer insight into the game (see:human with average intelligence). I do feel that discussions about already refined strategies should respect the thoughts of those who have more experience with it more. However remember that a lower league player may very well be more intelligent than you are and simply does not spend as much time playing Starcraft (humanitarian efforts, research, con artistry).
So basically I'm just pleading for everyone to have a little more respect for lower leaguers who attempt to be part of a community. If they're here it's because they actually care to increase their knowledge and understanding of the game and I'm not a fan of the dismissal and elitism that I see sometimes. Do you play more? Certainly. Are you better at Starcraft than me? I certainly hope so or else all that effort and time was put to waste. Does that mean my opinion isn't valid because I'm not of the same ranking? That has to be decided based on more information. The problem is that while lower league playes CAN offer insight as to what works at their level, they can't offer insight as to what works at the highest level of play, which is the level of play that much of TL is concerned with. They simply do not have a good enough understanding of the game to offer any valuable ideas. Whatever they can point out that does happen to be useful can be pointed out by a high level player just as easily. You totally forget, that lower league players may watch more tournament games etc and thus have good amount of knowledge. And intelligence plays big role here too. However, in my personal experience, if you understand the game at a diamond or higher level, you will play at that level. I have never encountered a silver or gold player who I felt knew a considerable amount about the game. It takes alot of games to get promoted and if mechanics are very subpar, it is hard to advance. You can be masters in less than 50 games, and anyone can become mechanically good enough to reach at least plat or diamond in a very short amount of time. SC2 is not a mechanically demanding game at all.
How many users do you know that have "subpar" mechanics and are in Masters?
Why bother writing up sentences just mash some keys and hit the post button.
Ofc you can make it to master in 50 games if your mechanics are good enough you don't even have to directly counter the enemy's build. If you macro and upgrade you can just deal with an invasion as it comes.
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I am a 3k point Platin Player close to advancing to diamond.
BUT i have to say i dont feel diamond at all.. my mechanics got better my timings and averall game understanding but i am sooo soo soo far away from beein as good as some of the top diamonds or the guys you watch on stream.
IF you just look at my points after my advance to diamond you would say 3k diamond.. is not too bad neither too god but still quit ok..
BUT i feel just like a gold player with better micro and some good timing attacks..
so TO is kinda right in my opinion.. Dont look at points and stuff...
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I'm 2900 Masters and I have more trouble at the D level in ICCup than on ladder these days. ><"
Pretty sure low/mid masters is around the level of D- to D+. Or maybe I just can't dodge koreans that well. ><"
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On March 04 2011 19:34 Axeinst wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2011 19:32 Turgid wrote:On March 04 2011 19:24 Axeinst wrote:On March 04 2011 14:56 chenchen wrote:On March 04 2011 14:47 ZarMulix wrote:
I probably shouldn't have but I actually get offended when I see what people think lower league players can and cannot do. Before even going into this, almost no one who hasn't recently been in a lower league has any credibility to speak about this because when's the last time they laddered in bronze, silver, gold, etc? I assume most people speak with no experience on the matter and it doesn't make sense logically either. It has been established that people in lower leauges have mainly two problems: macro and build order execution.
Since everyone on battlenet 2.0 has internet, EVERYONE playing starcraft has the ability to access sources such as TL, other strategy forums, replays of pro players, advice givers like Day[9], etc. I assume the vast majority of people who access this information is made up of people who are looking to improve and they spend most of this time researching rather than playing, which is what they would be doing if they knew how to improve (example: professional gamers).
I just recently got promoted to gold league and am playing mostly platinum players. However, I play barely once a week (maybe 3-4 games every a week on average) when I can, and spend most of my time overcoming my rustiness. I know what a build order is (in fact I know many, maybe too many), I use hotkeys, macro while microing battles, play reactively (see: zerg) and have my own distinctive play style in development. So has every player I've played from bronze to platinum and I really have no idea why people cite "a friend they introduced to the game" as a player of the average skill level of the league they're in.
The lower leagues have their share of people who don't know what they're doing, but most people I played were people who knew exactly what they were doing, but keep playing other people who also know what they're doing and therefore don't clobber the opposition. I find it curious that most people that I played in silver had 100+ apm while I noticed a dramatic drop when playing gold and platinum players (take it for what it's worth, yes there are those 400apm spammers who can barely 4gate- I played one).
The biggest problem accounting for lack of ability to win I see from lower league players is a two fold problem. One aspect is perceived knowledge and the other is lack of practice. Honestly how many of the lower league players who complain about losing have actually played more than (making up some number) 400 games? Lower league players are bombarded with ideas and strategies from the venues that they were introduced to the game in (professionals) and have simply not played enough to know first hand how these strategies come into play.
That doesn't mean a lower league player doesn't understand how things work, why things work, or can't offer insight into the game (see:human with average intelligence). I do feel that discussions about already refined strategies should respect the thoughts of those who have more experience with it more. However remember that a lower league player may very well be more intelligent than you are and simply does not spend as much time playing Starcraft (humanitarian efforts, research, con artistry).
So basically I'm just pleading for everyone to have a little more respect for lower leaguers who attempt to be part of a community. If they're here it's because they actually care to increase their knowledge and understanding of the game and I'm not a fan of the dismissal and elitism that I see sometimes. Do you play more? Certainly. Are you better at Starcraft than me? I certainly hope so or else all that effort and time was put to waste. Does that mean my opinion isn't valid because I'm not of the same ranking? That has to be decided based on more information. The problem is that while lower league playes CAN offer insight as to what works at their level, they can't offer insight as to what works at the highest level of play, which is the level of play that much of TL is concerned with. They simply do not have a good enough understanding of the game to offer any valuable ideas. Whatever they can point out that does happen to be useful can be pointed out by a high level player just as easily. You totally forget, that lower league players may watch more tournament games etc and thus have good amount of knowledge. And intelligence plays big role here too. However, in my personal experience, if you understand the game at a diamond or higher level, you will play at that level. I have never encountered a silver or gold player who I felt knew a considerable amount about the game. It takes alot of games to get promoted and if mechanics are very subpar, it is hard to advance.
I call bullshit. My friend made diamond with 30 APM and a little common sense. He never played any RTS before, nor watched any replays of pros. He is however an intelligence analyst. He took the time to think about the game and how stuff interacts and understands WHY some stuff happens. Once you understand the relationship between things in the game it is near impossible to be at a low level.
30 APM is one action every 2 seconds folks. My friend is watching more then playing, but by making the right action he is in diamond league. His macro is technically shitty too because instead of constantly building units he builds 50 gateways and only warps in an army when you attack him.
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EPT
