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On March 04 2011 08:09 Shiladie wrote:
I really don't think you can map things to specific numbers at all, it's more like this:
Bronze-gold: public B-net/E
platinum: E/D-
Low diamond: D-/D
mid Diamond: D
High diamond: D+
Low masters: D+/C-
mid masters: C through B
high masters: B+/A-
top masters A-/A
top 200: A/A+/olympic
I find it funny that people are calling elitism here without knowing how brutal iccup was. It didn't have the casual people, if you were playing on iccup, you were competative, you were playing to get better. This is because you had to seek it out, download a client, sign up on the website, etc. If you just wanted to play some casual fun games, you'd play on public b-net.
This is not elitism, this is simply how iccup was, so please, if you didn't play on iccup, don't judge by what these letter grades usually mean, I was damn proud of myself to hit D+, and my goal was to hit C-, not like a week or 2 goal, but a multi-year goal of C-
Starts with "I don't think you can map to specific numbers"
Post=maps to specific ranks...
Lol. Your ranking is just as arbitrary as anyone else's.
I don't understand why anyone cares what the BW-SC2 relationship in terms of rank is. It honestly doesn't matter.
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And top masters is much less than A- imo
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Haha. Reading the first post was a nice blast from the past. 1200~ is high diamond indeed.
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On March 04 2011 12:30 wherebugsgo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2011 08:09 Shiladie wrote:
I really don't think you can map things to specific numbers at all, it's more like this:
Bronze-gold: public B-net/E
platinum: E/D-
Low diamond: D-/D
mid Diamond: D
High diamond: D+
Low masters: D+/C-
mid masters: C through B
high masters: B+/A-
top masters A-/A
top 200: A/A+/olympic
I find it funny that people are calling elitism here without knowing how brutal iccup was. It didn't have the casual people, if you were playing on iccup, you were competative, you were playing to get better. This is because you had to seek it out, download a client, sign up on the website, etc. If you just wanted to play some casual fun games, you'd play on public b-net.
This is not elitism, this is simply how iccup was, so please, if you didn't play on iccup, don't judge by what these letter grades usually mean, I was damn proud of myself to hit D+, and my goal was to hit C-, not like a week or 2 goal, but a multi-year goal of C- Starts with "I don't think you can map to specific numbers" Post=maps to specific ranks... Lol. Your ranking is just as arbitrary as anyone else's. I don't understand why anyone cares what the BW-SC2 relationship in terms of rank is. It honestly doesn't matter.
Well you can't deny that a lot of iccup players are still involved in the community. Obviously when it comes to measurement of skill a comparison is quite handy. Iccup rankings were pretty exact in that regard unlike the divisions of sc2. One example beeing this thread.
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The fact that you can 4gate into diamond league speaks for itself. As for me, I play zerg and I feel that I mostly play on autopilot, and that's all I need to beat high diamond/low masters players; just sit there and react and really not do much at all except build drones and defend and then finally mass attack.
As for where silver league/gold/plat players are, I think they should get some credit for at least having an idea of what they are doing. Most of my friends are in the low leagues and they do stuff like watch HD, day9, etc. and they have an idea of what to do, they just fail at executing them. bronze league players are a whole other thing though, I coached my bronze friend and he really just had no clue what he was doing except he had the goal of "i wanna do a big medivac drop" so that's what he went for.
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I was a D- in ICCUP before making the switch to SC2, where I placed Silver and spent a few weeks getting into gold. (Now I'm plat, which took a few months). So if Diamond = D-, and I'm a lot better than I was when I was D-, why am I in Plat? Not to imply that I could go on to ICCUP right now and get a C, but the idea that sub-diamonds are also sub-human mongoloids who literally don't know how to move their units is a little bit absurd. Not to mention insulting, jerks
Even now, the leagues are starting to get more competitive as the level of play improves. Diamond players are going to start kicking Master's players down, making both Masters and Diamond harder to stay in, having a ripple effect down to bronze. This will continue for several years, making Silver League more and more respectable, as well as (of course) all the higher leagues.
Low Bronze: E. Since bronze is the lowest league, the "Forever Bronze" people are in it, getting their 4gate rushes countered by 1-base mass carriers.
High Bronze: D-. By the end of Bronze, you have a very rough idea of what you want to do, and are doing approximately the correct thing. However, your macro and execution are very poor. A lot of Bronze players are bad about maintaining constant worker production. Players are either cheesy or super-passive. Because of the Forever Bronze types, the difference between low Bronze and High Bronze is actually a pretty wide gulf, matched only by the gulf between high and low masters.
Silver: D. You're doing the same as bronze, but a little better. By Silver, you're getting into the habit of constant (ish) worker production, but also having trust fund issues as the game goes on.
Gold: D+. Macro still needs work, but it's better. Not much more to say that that. Primitive micro starts to appear in Gold as well, with Terrans putting Marauders in front of Marines to tank banelings, etc.
Platinum: C-. Gold, but better. I'm not sure if it's because I'm rising in Platinum, or because Diamonds are getting kicked down and making Plat more competitive (I've been here a while), but I'm seeing a lot more harassment at this point. In Plat, macro tends to be (fairly) solid up until the mid-game, but now drops, multi-pronged attacks, and muta harassment are added into the mix. For some reason, it's not until platinum that most players start keeping their scout workers in your base after they learn your start location, instead of leaving right away (Seriously, I saw golds doing this on 2-player maps when I was down there. WTH?), though I guess this is around the point where you can interpret what you see better. Platinum, oddly enough, is the least cheesy league right now.
Low Diamond: C. Congratulations! You're in the top 5% of Starcraft players. The fact that being better than 95% of of the people on the ladder is only worth a C even to my more generous ranking system is indicative of how much the competition steps up at this point. By this point, your macro is now competent. While your macro can still improve, from here on out timing and game sense are going to become more important.
I haven't been to or played people from mid-diamond, so I can't offer descriptions, but calling Mid Diamond C+, High Diamond B-, Low Masters B, and so forth. I wouldn't consider Grand Master League anything beyond "Grand Master" at this point. It's funky. But now we have a system where 95% of players are "below average". That's kind of silly. But playing Gold as the C means that Diamond and above have to share A, and that hides rather major skill differences.
I suppose you could abandon ICCUP-style rankings for Devil May Cry-style, and have
Bronze: E
Silver: D
Gold: C
Platinum: B
Diamond: A
Low Masters: S
Mid Masters: SS
High Masters: SSS
Grand Master: Viewtiful!
Add pluses and minuses, and you have 9 ranks (S- to SSS+) just for masters, which should be enough to work with, while still avoiding that insulting undertone for 95% of the player base. .
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On March 04 2011 12:24 rauk wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2011 08:09 Shiladie wrote:
I really don't think you can map things to specific numbers at all, it's more like this:
Bronze-gold: public B-net/E
platinum: E/D-
Low diamond: D-/D
mid Diamond: D
High diamond: D+
Low masters: D+/C-
mid masters: C through B
high masters: B+/A-
top masters A-/A
top 200: A/A+/olympic
I find it funny that people are calling elitism here without knowing how brutal iccup was. It didn't have the casual people, if you were playing on iccup, you were competative, you were playing to get better. This is because you had to seek it out, download a client, sign up on the website, etc. If you just wanted to play some casual fun games, you'd play on public b-net.
This is not elitism, this is simply how iccup was, so please, if you didn't play on iccup, don't judge by what these letter grades usually mean, I was damn proud of myself to hit D+, and my goal was to hit C-, not like a week or 2 goal, but a multi-year goal of C- mapping ratings is fun! however i think it's a lot more like this top 200: B/B- 3500-3300: C+/C 3200-3100: C-/D+ 3000: D everything else D-/computer
This is correct, although B/B- is even optimistic for some top 200 players. Some people in the top 50 might be B+/A- and definitely like >5 legit A players. As someone who has seen tons of players from BW who were like B- skill level in BW in the top 50 in sc2 (playing just as much) I can say it is pretty damn easy to do well on this ladder.
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I do think that on the whole, the level of Silver/Gold/Plat/Diamond have all been increasing. A Diamond of today is probably better than a Diamond of release date. I would even go as far as to say that a Diamond now is probably at least D on iccup. But yes, iccup ratings are outdated. This post was from back when SC2 first came out, and people were interested in how the ranks fit in with the known iccup ranks at the time. It's no longer relevant.
You also have to keep in mind that mechanics were far more important in BW than in SC2, where pure mechanics will not necessarily win you a game. In SC2, slow hands can still reach masters league with a good build order and good reactions, whereas in BW, slow hands will keep you relegated to D or C.
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To everybody who is saying "A top master player is nowhere near the level of A to A+!" - that isn't the point of comparing ranks. What is actually being said is that the relation between the skill levels of an A player and B player in ICCUP is the same as the relation between the skill levels between a top 200 master leaguer and a 3700 master leaguer (or whatever; this is an arbitrary demarcation).
This is not saying that if you took "X" ranked SC2 player and had them play ICCUP they would be "Y" rank on ICCUP. It is merely comparing the relationships between the skill levels, not the skill levels themselves.
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I don't usually post on TL, but I thought of something interesting that relates to the topic.
Starcraft 2 is fresh and crisp at the moment, and most TL members have been following the game since beta. Bronze - Master's have easily been able to watch the evolution of strategies and different playstyles, allowing for a general understanding of the game across most leagues. With Starcraft 1, to figure out the evolution of a given strategy, there's alot of painstaking research to understand exactly why something is incredibly good by following the matchup or strategy linearly for multiple years. It's easy to say, "I'm gonna do the Bisu PvZ," and even win with it -- without knowing all of the reasons for exactly why you're doing it.
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Ok so if the TL forums are full of "garbage" strategy then where should a Gold player like myself look for good strategy? Should I rely on pro replay packs and Day9 dailies or is there another site with good stuff on it?
What can I trust?
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LOL at everyone who thinks this assessment is still valid and are trying to refute it.
There have been so many shifts in the game already that are making play "standard" this particular post was made in respect to the time in which it was posted, nothing more.
Some points are still valid, but really it was a product of the times, leave it be.
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On March 04 2011 12:56 Drock wrote:
Ok so if the TL forums are full of "garbage" strategy then where should a Gold player like myself look for good strategy? Should I rely on pro replay packs and Day9 dailies or is there another site with good stuff on it?
What can I trust?
Watch on pro-replay packs. Watch Day9 dailies. But the only real way to get better is to think for yourself. Pro's rarely just copy other pro's because every build has a million little deviations as it reacts to the opponent. You need to think for yourself and understand how to adapt your build to your scouting information.
Edit: or 4 gate.
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On March 04 2011 12:58 Kimaker wrote:
LOL at everyone who thinks this assessment is still valid and are trying to refute it.
There have been so many shifts in the game already that are making play "standard" this particular post was made in respect to the time in which it was posted, nothing more.
Some points are still valid, but really it was a product of the times, leave it be.
Or if possible find someone who is better than you. Practice one thing at a time, chose a build and adjust it if you hit the wall. Never give up, never surrender!
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+ Show Spoiler +On March 04 2011 12:40 Ribbon wrote:
I was a D- in ICCUP before making the switch to SC2, where I placed Silver and spent a few weeks getting into gold. (Now I'm plat, which took a few months). So if Diamond = D-, and I'm a lot better than I was when I was D-, why am I in Plat? Not to imply that I could go on to ICCUP right now and get a C, but the idea that sub-diamonds are also sub-human mongoloids who literally don't know how to move their units is a little bit absurd. Not to mention insulting, jerks
Even now, the leagues are starting to get more competitive as the level of play improves. Diamond players are going to start kicking Master's players down, making both Masters and Diamond harder to stay in, having a ripple effect down to bronze. This will continue for several years, making Silver League more and more respectable, as well as (of course) all the higher leagues.
Low Bronze: E. Since bronze is the lowest league, the "Forever Bronze" people are in it, getting their 4gate rushes countered by 1-base mass carriers.
High Bronze: D-. By the end of Bronze, you have a very rough idea of what you want to do, and are doing approximately the correct thing. However, your macro and execution are very poor. A lot of Bronze players are bad about maintaining constant worker production. Players are either cheesy or super-passive. Because of the Forever Bronze types, the difference between low Bronze and High Bronze is actually a pretty wide gulf, matched only by the gulf between high and low masters.
Silver: D. You're doing the same as bronze, but a little better. By Silver, you're getting into the habit of constant (ish) worker production, but also having trust fund issues as the game goes on.
Gold: D+. Macro still needs work, but it's better. Not much more to say that that. Primitive micro starts to appear in Gold as well, with Terrans putting Marauders in front of Marines to tank banelings, etc.
Platinum: C-. Gold, but better. I'm not sure if it's because I'm rising in Platinum, or because Diamonds are getting kicked down and making Plat more competitive (I've been here a while), but I'm seeing a lot more harassment at this point. In Plat, macro tends to be (fairly) solid up until the mid-game, but now drops, multi-pronged attacks, and muta harassment are added into the mix. For some reason, it's not until platinum that most players start keeping their scout workers in your base after they learn your start location, instead of leaving right away (Seriously, I saw golds doing this on 2-player maps when I was down there. WTH?), though I guess this is around the point where you can interpret what you see better. Platinum, oddly enough, is the least cheesy league right now.
Low Diamond: C. Congratulations! You're in the top 5% of Starcraft players. The fact that being better than 95% of of the people on the ladder is only worth a C even to my more generous ranking system is indicative of how much the competition steps up at this point. By this point, your macro is now competent. While your macro can still improve, from here on out timing and game sense are going to become more important.
I haven't been to or played people from mid-diamond, so I can't offer descriptions, but calling Mid Diamond C+, High Diamond B-, Low Masters B, and so forth. I wouldn't consider Grand Master League anything beyond "Grand Master" at this point. It's funky. But now we have a system where 95% of players are "below average". That's kind of silly. But playing Gold as the C means that Diamond and above have to share A, and that hides rather major skill differences.
I suppose you could abandon ICCUP-style rankings for Devil May Cry-style, and have
Bronze: E
Silver: D
Gold: C
Platinum: B
Diamond: A
Low Masters: S
Mid Masters: SS
High Masters: SSS
Grand Master: Viewtiful!
Add pluses and minuses, and you have 9 ranks (S- to SSS+) just for masters, which should be enough to work with, while still avoiding that insulting undertone for 95% of the player base. .
Your ranking makes completely no sense.. not to bash or anything.. but it really doesnt. I was a D player in ICCUP, when started playing sc2, i got to diamond pretty easily, my high rank was around top 1400 NA... Silver is by no means D... silver players dont know builds, when i play against players on ICCUP that are D, they know good builds, decent macro, micro, knowledge of the game, and not to mention their eapm is around 200 (not that apm means too much, but it gives some indication when ur avg silver league player has 30)
Edit: added spoiler
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Diamond is definitely the new D+, with Master being C- and above. I'm assuming that Grand Master will be roughly equivalent to the A class.
My friend and I never got past D+ iccup and we're settled into Diamond firmly.
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On March 04 2011 12:43 KevinIX wrote:
I do think that on the whole, the level of Silver/Gold/Plat/Diamond have all been increasing. There definitely has been since release. It also seems that the difference in skill in Gold, Platinum and low Diamond is getting much closer, and is more down to whether you can keep it together once things get crazy, instead of early game garbage like you see in Bronze (Trust me, I was there once). I'm currently high up in gold and I play mainly Plats with the odd Diamond (Promotion soon I hope?), and I have found that many of the high Plats are better (MUCH better at times) than the low diamonds. Same with some the high golds, though not all (Since 3rax all-ins can get you far). Other than 4gate in PvP (But it's PvP so it's dumb at all levels), very little cheese/all-ining occurs from the Platinums/High Golds, who seem to prefer getting actual practice and working on macro over getting quick wins, yet there's tons of cheesy play or all-ins from the low diamonds (1-2 base all-ins with no backup plan and way fewer workers than they should have in the later game), which makes me thinks some of them got there by all-ining or cheesing earlier on when the game was new and they just barely keep their diamond rating now (Which should be fixed with the new season).
I'd go as far as to say that a current nearing promotion high Platinum player will probably be better than many of his Low Diamond counterpart. Chances are if promoted, the Platinum player would have a higher point total than the low Diamond anyway just by moving into his new division.
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On March 04 2011 12:43 ThE_OsToJiY wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2011 12:24 rauk wrote:On March 04 2011 08:09 Shiladie wrote:
I really don't think you can map things to specific numbers at all, it's more like this:
Bronze-gold: public B-net/E
platinum: E/D-
Low diamond: D-/D
mid Diamond: D
High diamond: D+
Low masters: D+/C-
mid masters: C through B
high masters: B+/A-
top masters A-/A
top 200: A/A+/olympic
I find it funny that people are calling elitism here without knowing how brutal iccup was. It didn't have the casual people, if you were playing on iccup, you were competative, you were playing to get better. This is because you had to seek it out, download a client, sign up on the website, etc. If you just wanted to play some casual fun games, you'd play on public b-net.
This is not elitism, this is simply how iccup was, so please, if you didn't play on iccup, don't judge by what these letter grades usually mean, I was damn proud of myself to hit D+, and my goal was to hit C-, not like a week or 2 goal, but a multi-year goal of C- mapping ratings is fun! however i think it's a lot more like this top 200: B/B- 3500-3300: C+/C 3200-3100: C-/D+ 3000: D everything else D-/computer This is correct, although B/B- is even optimistic for some top 200 players. Some people in the top 50 might be B+/A- and definitely like >5 legit A players. As someone who has seen tons of players from BW who were like B- skill level in BW in the top 50 in sc2 (playing just as much) I can say it is pretty damn easy to do well on this ladder.
I never played on Iccup but I can see how wrong you are.. I am sure there would of been over 200 people at a B- or higher rank in any given season and Iccup had a lower competitive player base than sc2 does atm so it seems reasonable that sc2 would have more people at a higher rank higher. Just because someone was X iccup rank and is now Y sc2 rank doesnt mean that x=y although if you were to follow this logic the simple fact that there are more than 200 (I assume) people b- or higher would prove that the top 200 is "at that level". Its funny how you say " its pretty damn easy to do well in this ladder" but the fact remains there can only ever be 200 people in the top 200 and atm there are more people playing sc2 competitively...
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Points don't mean anything. Points are a measure of how much you play. You have to look at what league they're in and their win/loss. I'm only at 800 diamond, but I have a 59% win rate. I just don't ladder much but I'm definitely a good player. I'm currently on an 8 game win streak because I have a solid understanding of the game and can counter and adapt to my opponents.
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Im a 3400 masters league zerg right now, and I can say for sure Im nowhere NEAR getting b- on ICCUP. The competition on ICCUP is many times harder than it is on sc2 ladder. The highest I've gone in ICCUP was low d+ but I only played like 40 games or so, in sc2 I've played a bit less than 1000 games 1v1. People who think top 200 players can reach anything above a B are out of their fucking minds. An A- player can easily get into top 10 NA or EU server, but im not sure about the korean server.
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EPT
