EPTThe Truth About Diamond League - Page 6
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ALPINA
3791 Posts
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rezoacken
Canada2719 Posts
We are like 1 280 000 players worldwide to play on the battle.net (From last sc2rank i saw). As a mid diamond i sit around the 15 000th rank WW. Now if you do the math I'm in top 2% of players ! So from blizzard point of view I deserve to be here... because 98% of other players are worse and they must be put somewhere. Iccup is very different in the fact that a lot more people are good and getting to this top 1% is something really really hard to achieve. And then it gives people a sense that they are good at the game... because in a way they really are for the time being. The problem comes when such people come here and begin whining or say this or that is impossible/unbeatable whatever... because like you said they do not understand the game yet. Still they should spend their time helping Plat to Bronze player before coming here and say "never played BW, i say this, I'm 600diamond therefore what I say is true". Helping lower player, trying to teach them what Day9 does to the whole community IS VERY beneficial. You actually begins to incorporate the concepts a lot more and open other views on the game. The link between iccup and Sc2 ranks is kinda good I guess. | ||
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Shiladie
Canada1631 Posts
Also, coming from a game like BW where everything was so defined and 'found out' seeing the changes in play from week to week, or even day to day has been a very interesting challenging experience. When I play ladder, while in the back of my head I'm trying to win of course, I always try to make my main goal to have a mechanically solid game from start to finish (far from actually achieving this) as it lets me focus on improving my actual game-play instead of just running a BO over and over, when it's likely to only last another month or so before it's rendered obsolete (or at least weak) due to either a patch or just a meta-shift. | ||
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Reason.SC2
Canada1047 Posts
The skill difference between your average mid-level diamond and the top 1% is very very significant, even if the win/loss ratios don't make it appear that way. IMO it is much easier to get from bronze to diamond than it is to get from ~500 diamond to 1000+ diamond. Edit: We need a "rainbow league" (or something of that sort hehe) of the top 1% of players only | ||
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Latham
9569 Posts
On August 25 2010 02:46 travis wrote: I can't stand the whole "compare sc2 ranks to sc1 iccup ranks". They are different games. I find it annoying to try to compare 2 different ladders in 2 different games. (but I guess you're just trying to make a point) I'm with Travis on this one. You can't really compare the two. They are two different games. The flow of the game, the strategies, the timings, the units are different and work differently. Although some basic mechanics transfer reasonably well from game to game, as they should from the precursor to the successor, you really can't think of the 2 games being mirror images of each other. The lines between skill levels are blurry to say the least. First you state the points are inflated and don't represent skill and after that you use them to describe the skill level of players? How is that even possible? Besides, I think we can all agree that the skill ceiling is a lower in this game than it was in BW. That's another reason you can't pidgeon-hole people into old ranks. A lot more is made easier in SC2. MBS, infinite selection and hotkeys, worker auto-mine, etc. What was used to set apart people in BW can't really set them apart now. Sure we all know Diamond is tiered but for God's sake don't compare it with ICCup. | ||
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TurpinOS
Canada1223 Posts
----If what you are trying to say is that, in most situatuations, a high-level player has way more chance of being right then a mid-diamond player, then sure, Id have to agree, but I really dont see whats new about that, obviously the better player will know more about the game. ----If what you are trying to say is that people should not use their mid-diamond ratings to justify their point, well then ill give you that but at the same time it could be seen rather not as a justification but more of a '' well im of that level, so take my advice for what its worth''.< ( Ill just quote you here ''The fact that a great majority of the public thinks that since these people are 500+ point diamond leaguers, they have some sort of deeper understanding of the game. And this is where the public is horribly, horribly wrong.'' I dont think that anyone would say that the 500+ pt has a deeper understanding of the game then the 1200 pt, but it still can be useful that this guy says hes a 500pt diamond so that the 300pt platinum knows it might be useful for him,) ----If youre trying to say that the mid-diamond player will NEVER be right when arguing with a high-level player, then I would have to disagree. Even though this might be the case in most situation (as explained earlier, nothing out of the extraordinary here), there are these cases of players that have an EXCELLENT knowledge of the game, while simply not having the micro and macro to actually pull it off in game (aka, player A who watches 10 hours of replays a day and knows a lot about the game, but just cant pull it off in a match and is thus stucked in the mid-diamond bracket) All in all, what Im trying to say is that I cant seize the point of your post, it just really seems to me that youre just writing some pretty obvious stuff. (Just to support that, the rankings you made just dont have nothing to do with your whole point) | ||
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HardcoreBilly
United States222 Posts
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n0ise
3452 Posts
On August 25 2010 02:59 roofs wrote: No, because he isn't giving SC2 strategy advice. Surely you cannot talk about *the truth of who understands the game and who doesn't*, without understanding it yourself (at least to a moderate extent). | ||
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s[O]rry
Canada398 Posts
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Ghazwan
Netherlands444 Posts
On August 25 2010 02:59 roofs wrote: No, because he isn't giving SC2 strategy advice. No, he does not, but he judges other people's knowledge on a certain subject, i.e. SC2 tactics and strategy. To be capable of passing this kind of judgment on other people, first, you need to have extensive knowledge on that subject yourself, which according to him, is only understood fully by top players. So yeah, it's a bit of a self-defeating argument unless he is a top player himself. But that aside, I like the argument itself. | ||
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roofs
Canada112 Posts
On August 25 2010 02:59 EppE wrote: EJ works because of how creditable their posters are. By saying anyone can post you lose alot of creditability which is what you have on the offical forums. I was never into theorycrafting when I played WoW but I read EJ because it was like a manual on how to get better. I think the Strategy Forum should take the shape of what EJ has with it's class discussion threads. The genearl SC2 forums are more for BSing about SC2. The Strategy Forum needs to be tightly regulated with by a fuehrer style mod team. Was just going to post something similar about how the Strategy Forums should resemble EJ. wierd. Anyways, I'd like to add to EJ's other merits. EJ caters not to the old members, but for the readers. I wouldn't doubt it if the majority of the site traffic is attributed to lurkers who simply like to read what others have posted. And it's so goddamn good for any reader because the posts are such high quality and are simply educational. While there have been a TON of good threads on TL [much like this one], they're starting to be overshadowed by the waves of 'I'm a 500 diamond player'-posts. | ||
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Pyrthas
United States3196 Posts
On August 25 2010 02:54 sikyon wrote: "TL should only be open to X point diamond players!". I think people are saying only, "People should not be as confident as they currently are that they understand what they're posting about in the strategy forum," and then hoping that generally lower confidence will result in fewer stupid posts. Basically they're saying, "Here's a general rule: Think before you post, and think well (not stupidly), and only post if you think that what you're saying is actually contributing something novel and important. Here's a particular instance of the 'think well' part of this rule: Do not think that you have perfect insight into the game because of your points or record." (Only sort of on topic: This is very much an uphill battle, I suspect, not least because critical thinking skills in general—the ability to reflect on and examine the evidence for your beliefs, the ability to imagine and consider alternate explanations, etc.—are woefully underdeveloped. There's plenty of research showing this. But these skills are exactly what are required for first lowering confidence, and then for translating that lower confidence to more restrained posting.) | ||
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TheAngelofDeath
United States2033 Posts
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Jonoman92
United States9107 Posts
On August 25 2010 02:36 Sfydjklm wrote: that is not entirely correct. 1200 right now is definitely more like A-. no way, not even remotely close... I'm 1200 and I am not close to being A- in bw, highest I ever got to was B but more accurately I was B- really. Comparing ICCUP ranking to sc2 ladder points is just not possible, they are 2 different games. | ||
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Nadir
Australia114 Posts
All in all though, I agree with Chill. A bit of humility wouldn't hurt the forum imo | ||
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DeckOneBell
United States526 Posts
Because, there's a large difference between, "Well, do you think Zerg could do X vs. Y?" and "Just do X vs. Y when playing Terran, noob." And while I agree with most of the points of the OP, I just can't shake the feeling that the post isn't going to be that helpful. Much like Artosis' "bad zerg maps" thread, which was actually pretty well thought out, the tone is just rather offensive. In the end, you're obviously right, a competitive gamer that goes to tournaments and practices for games with cash prizes will probably do better than your average diamond ladder player. | ||
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Arm4n
United States103 Posts
when someone is right they are right. i personally think that the people at certain level of points in gold,platinum,diamond etc will change dramatically in the coming months. there are plenty of players currently who are 1000+ diamond and are utter trash. i was talking to some terran player who i watched go from 700 diamond to 1050 in 1 day by doing BBS every single game. i've watched protoss players abuse 4gate pushes to 1000+ diamond. these guys will never last at their current ranking because they abused cheese builds to get there. | ||
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protoss22
United States41 Posts
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roofs
Canada112 Posts
On August 25 2010 03:08 Ghazwan wrote: No, he does not, but he judges other people's knowledge on a certain subject, i.e. SC2 tactics and strategy. To be capable of passing this kind of judgment on other people, first, you need to have extensive knowledge on that subject yourself, which according to him, is only understood fully by top players. So yeah, it's a bit of a self-defeating argument unless he is a top player himself. But that aside, I like the argument itself. Err no. You can judge and analyze soccer/football/basketball players and their skillsets/styles/strategies without being one yourself. It's exactly like how easy it is to point out mistakes in other people's play, but you yourself commit the same ones as easily. You do NOT have to be a tip top sc bw player to understand the majority of what's going on if you've watched enough games and heard enough commentary. Nor do you have to be a tip-top player to understand that jaedong absolutely rapes and anything he says is more credible than iccup players. He judges the people's credibility, not their knowledge. | ||
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SiegeFlank
United States410 Posts
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