|
I currently average in around 800-900 and back in the days I was B-
Agreed, I've lost the speed. I was maybe at 250ish APM back then and now I have trouble to stay over 150apm... and SC2 is a different game. I also switched from protoss to zerg.
The fact that I lost speed over time (since I left BW to play WoW) doesn't mean I lost my intelligence or I can't help someone... since I have the actual understanding of the game (except vs terrans since I lose 90% of my ZvT and I wouldn't help anyone in ZvT right now) I just have trouble with my control (which will come back in the near future).
that being said, I totaly disagree with you. Coaches in BW aren't the best players but they have a brain and knows what to do. Just cause they can't execute it perfectly... it doesn't mean they can't help someone in the strategy forums but I do agree that silvers/gold players that will argue with you over things is kinda anoying.
Hope it helped 
|
On August 25 2010 02:30 rackdude wrote:
Thank you.
I was highish diamond, now going lower due to switching to Zerg, in 2v2, and I win almost every macro game because I'm practicing and studying the game. I have Tarran teammates who think I'm a noob because they are going 3rax all-in marine and I am telling them they need to expand in the midgame. They are highish diamond too. Right now, all-ins are hard to stop. Before QQing, learn from Idra. Practice your build and stop all-ins. Learn the macro game. Your win rate will suck at first (I got down to 25% when first switching to Zerg) but when you learn the variations to stop all-ins and get into the midgame, you now are playing real Starcraft. Spread the word. Within a month hopefully those all-inners will be out of diamond.
wtf are you talking about me? I don't go 3rax...
|
Thats also just what I thought it looked like.
Even though I understand what hes trying to say, it just looks more like that mixed with a little bit ''ill state some obvious things'' (As in the 1200 pt diamond has better knowledge then the 500pt diamond---shocking)
|
If you are at all familiar with Brood War and iCCup rankings, here's what it would look like:
Bronze: I play B.net custom games. I can give the computer a good fight.
Silver: I play Fastest Possible Map Ever.
Gold: I play BGH and some low maps. I know who Boxer is.
Platinum: Computer (E) rank
Low diamond (~300): D-
Mid diamond (~600): D
High diamond (~900): D+ through C
Top diamond (~1200): B
its a good view, nice see i approve it.
|
On August 25 2010 03:08 n0ise wrote:
Well, EJ works in a completely different way. There, making a claim carries zero weight, unless supported by solid computations/theorycrafting, but that is inherently easier because of how the game is tailored, especially PvE. It would be really difficult to approach SC in a similar manner.
You're focusing too much on the EJ example. It's nothing more than just an example, I didn't mean to say "I want TL to mimic EJ", but that the forums were all in all great to read as the vast majority of the posts were great. You can transfer the basic number crunching to SC2 in certain areas (worker split), but if all posts regarding strategy were as concise as the ones on EJ visiting the strategy forums would be much more of a delight.
As it is now a lot of the quality posts gets buried in six pages of garbage, which is what's keeping me from visiting the strategy forums too much in the first place. At least certain types of threads, hell look at MasterAsia's well detailed thread about what he thinks of the balance in TvZ and then look at the posts in the thread. There's quite a difference.
|
|
|
No. It's a caution against giving too much (any) weight to points and ladder ranks.
|
I don't really understand why you made this thread. I'd like to make up my own mind whether a post is legit or not and usually the posters ladder rank is a non factor in that equation.
|
On August 25 2010 03:04 Latham wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2010 02:46 travis wrote:
I can't stand the whole "compare sc2 ranks to sc1 iccup ranks". They are different games. I find it annoying to try to compare 2 different ladders in 2 different games.
(but I guess you're just trying to make a point) I'm with Travis on this one. You can't really compare the two. They are two different games. The flow of the game, the strategies, the timings, the units are different and work differently. Although some basic mechanics transfer reasonably well from game to game, as they should from the precursor to the successor, you really can't think of the 2 games being mirror images of each other. The lines between skill levels are blurry to say the least. First you state the points are inflated and don't represent skill and after that you use them to describe the skill level of players? How is that even possible? Besides, I think we can all agree that the skill ceiling is a lower in this game than it was in BW. That's another reason you can't pidgeon-hole people into old ranks. A lot more is made easier in SC2. MBS, infinite selection and hotkeys, worker auto-mine, etc. What was used to set apart people in BW can't really set them apart now. Sure we all know Diamond is tiered but for God's sake don't compare it with ICCup.
I completely agree with you. Dont start comparing the 2... They are not the same game. I used to play Sc1 and i was really really bad because of some things like no auto-mining and such. Giving a player with 30 apm more than me a BIG advantage... Now that we got new features we can play a lot more on the same level and it depends a lot more on strategies, macro and micro and multitask. We no longer need to do multitask for things that are from the past...
I was like a D-- player in iCCup and i'm now a "High diamond" with build order against each matchup and i know all the units on my finger... Its not like BW where a lot of things were fuzzy for me.
Its a different games, differents strategies and for the most part, a different gameplay that make the game more fun to play imo.
|
On August 25 2010 03:09 DeckOneBell wrote:
Chill said it best when he said users in general just need more humility. I think the way you put it, Saracen, is a bit more offensive than it needs to be. Nothing wrong with a player who might be mistaken giving his input, unless his input is said in an inflammatory manner. Obviously, the more argumentative posts are what you're talking about. At least, I hope so.
Because, there's a large difference between, "Well, do you think Zerg could do X vs. Y?" and "Just do X vs. Y when playing Terran, noob."
And while I agree with most of the points of the OP, I just can't shake the feeling that the post isn't going to be that helpful. Much like Artosis' "bad zerg maps" thread, which was actually pretty well thought out, the tone is just rather offensive.
In the end, you're obviously right, a competitive gamer that goes to tournaments and practices for games with cash prizes will probably do better than your average diamond ladder player.
I'm talking about the advice that could be really terrible or flat-out wrong, but is supported by diamond ranking as evidence. In this case, a player who is mistaken in giving his input is actually harming the community, or at least the people who follow his advice.
|
Very precise and true post.
Unfortunately most of the 600-900 Diamond players feel gifted and special and they refuse to see the bigger picture and face the truth, that they are just average.
I'm 750 diamond and I suck real bad as I did when I played D+ on Iccup.
|
On August 25 2010 03:06 TurpinOS wrote:
All in all, what Im trying to say is that I cant seize the point of your post, it just really seems to me that youre just writing some pretty obvious stuff. (Just to support that, the rankings you made just dont have nothing to do with your whole point)
Read the forums more and you'll understand why the post was made. While it is indeed common sense, many many people seem to be lacking in that department when posting these days.
Ultimately, I don't know why people are actually debating in this thread. The point behind his posts are entirely accurate and something everybody should be behind. "Don't post shit you don't know about." That seems like a pretty good rule everybody should get behind. Nobody wants to read 9 pages of people theorycrafting out of their asses to finally get to a post of legitimate value.
|
Just judging by the number of people with 70 ish apm with around 1000 points in Diamond league, what OP says is absolutely true.
However, the advice of someone in Diamond will always be more accurate and valuable than someone Platium, and as these are the players that make up the populace of the game.
|
On August 25 2010 03:12 vyyye wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2010 03:08 n0ise wrote:
Well, EJ works in a completely different way. There, making a claim carries zero weight, unless supported by solid computations/theorycrafting, but that is inherently easier because of how the game is tailored, especially PvE. It would be really difficult to approach SC in a similar manner.
You're focusing too much on the EJ example. It's nothing more than just an example, I didn't mean to say "I want TL to mimic EJ", but that the forums were all in all great to read as the vast majority of the posts were great. You can transfer the basic number crunching to SC2 in certain areas (worker split), but if all posts regarding strategy were as concise as the ones on EJ visiting the strategy forums would be much more of a delight. As it is now a lot of the quality posts gets buried in six pages of garbage, which is what's keeping me from visiting the strategy forums too much in the first place. At least certain types of threads, hell look at MasterAsia's well detailed thread about what he thinks of the balance in TvZ and then look at the posts in the thread. There's quite a difference.
Yeah, got carried away with memories, but I completely support the 'quality of posts' PoV. If only 
|
On August 25 2010 03:13 Pyrthas wrote:No. It's a caution against giving too much (any) weight to points and ladder ranks.
I think it might be both?
|
I agree with most of what the OP said, but not all high diamond players play all-in-stuff...
I've played against 1000+ Diamond-Players that have 50 APM and can't do anything else besides 4-gateway timing-attacks, or Players that have 800+ Points, but if you look at their games, no game is much longer than 10 minutes. But you can't just say: Every player that isn't signed by a sponsored team and plays in international Tournaments is basically a noob.
|
Seems about right. Wouldn't dream to give people advice on SC2 because I'm still a student of starcraft, not a master.
I'm tryin' to go the solid macro-oriented route and that's been helping me alot even though I loose to cheese and all-ins many games I'm getting better and better for each game and I can't say the same about my all-inning friends that just go even more all-in the next match.. Allthough they have better ladderstats (not custom) so I'm guessing I should listen to their advice 
|
On August 25 2010 03:15 I_Love_Bacon wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2010 03:06 TurpinOS wrote:
All in all, what Im trying to say is that I cant seize the point of your post, it just really seems to me that youre just writing some pretty obvious stuff. (Just to support that, the rankings you made just dont have nothing to do with your whole point) Read the forums more and you'll understand why the post was made. While it is indeed common sense, many many people seem to be lacking in that department when posting these days. Ultimately, I don't know why people are actually debating in this thread. The point behind his posts are entirely accurate and something everybody should be behind. "Don't post shit you don't know about." That seems like a pretty good rule everybody should get behind. Nobody wants to read 9 pages of people theorycrafting out of their asses to finally get to a post of legitimate value.
I'd like to disagree a tiny bit with that. "Don't post shit you don't know about and refuse to accept that it's wrong" seems like a better version. If you believe you have a good strategy there shouldn't be an issue with yhou posting it, but the problem arises when an obviously more exprienced player explains why your strategy is flawed and you refuse to accept it (because of bullshit like "I'm X diamond). That's where the problem lies, in my opinion. If no one who wasn't a pro was allowed to post any strategies it would slow the evolvement of the whole metagame. After all even lower tier players can come up with creative strategies/ideas that might end up working in higher leagues as well.
|
Just judging by the number of people with 70 ish apm with around 1000 points in Diamond league, what OP says is absolutely true.
So how well someone understands the game and his ability to make valid arguments depends on his APM? :D
|
Completely incorrect. I don't even understand why you are making such claims. Limiting "deeper knowledge of the game," to pros is utterly ridiculous. People who are rank 500 Diamond are most likely within the top 10% of all players. Whether or not you think this constitutes YOUR personal definition of "great understanding of the game," relative to everyone else, they DO.
Your iccup scale is also just a gross exaggeration. I think your OP lacks almost zero credibility, and it amazes me you're stating it as a fact.
A D+ in iccup was better than 80% of the rest of players in BW as well. Relative to everyone else, a D+ in iccup has a significantly better understanding of the game.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
