EPTThe Truth About Diamond League - Page 8
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dudeman001
United States2412 Posts
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Ghazwan
Netherlands444 Posts
On August 25 2010 03:11 roofs wrote: Err no. You can judge and analyze soccer/football/basketball players and their skillsets/styles/strategies without being one yourself. It's exactly like how easy it is to point out mistakes in other people's play, but you yourself commit the same ones as easily. You do NOT have to be a tip top sc bw player to understand the majority of what's going on if you've watched enough games and heard enough commentary. See, we are kinda running in a viscous circle. Now, you say someone with mediocre results is capable of judging what's going on in a game. This, in turn, relates to mid diamond players in question and means some of them are perfectly capable of understanding the game well. | ||
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Amber[LighT]
United States5078 Posts
Luckily I'm outspoken without expressing my rank lol. I don't care if you're 500, 600, 1000, or 10000 points in diamond. It just doesn't matter. Oddly enough I played against someone in Diamond... and we were chatting while in game... and he asked about my icon (I'm rocking the Protoss Scout atm) and I told him what it was and he was like "what?" So I was like "yah they are underused and really only good for the stove build" and he goes "what?" Of course I was like "oh it was some old PvT Brood War strategy" and his response "...oh I was a fastest player in Brood War." And this kid didn't really play like a newb or anything. He was playing pretty well for someone who claimed his fame in brood war to fastest maps. I'm surprised and excited at all of the people who are doing well who may not live their lives by the rank. It's annoying to even read "oh 600 points diamond = D level." Well yah if you're like 20-100, but if you don't play much you're going to be like 65-40 (lol 100 games isn't a lot, made me laugh) with 600 points. With the frequency you play you're just not getting 300 - 200 1200 points. Is the person who has 1200 points necessarily better? Well no not necessarily because they're just not playing to learn, they're just playing to repeat. Is the person who doesn't play a lot better? The answer is still no because they're only just playing enough to get a high rank, but aren't diving deeper and understanding the game better. At a certain point this hits a "fatigue" where you can only be repetitive for so long without changing something up. This happens with me when I get pissed off at my Terran friends and I'm like "ugh this 15 hatch 14 pool JUST DOESN'T WORK! TERRAN IS SO IMBA!" It's not really a question of imbalance even though it seems like it, but it's really the lack of adaptability for me. I'm still playing my same builds from beta patch 12, while we are at release patch 1.03 or w/e. I will say I do like having the divisions so at least I can be like "oh look I'm the 5th best Zerg in my division" or I can see like "oh look MasterAsia and Machine are battling it out for number 1 in my division," and then I can check out what they're up to if I want. Does it make either of them "THE BEST ZERG BECAUSE THEY'RE NO. 1?" Once again no not really it just helps as a base point to look around. I can't really get much better data while on b.net anyway so I may as well enjoy something out of it lol. Sorry for the longest post in tangent-land... just felt like blogging in this thread (sorry Saracen  ) | ||
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nalho
United States351 Posts
It's not the best to assume that all gold players are worse than an E rank because there could be a gold player who would be better than some of the diamond players out there. | ||
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TurpinOS
Canada1223 Posts
On August 25 2010 03:15 I_Love_Bacon wrote: Read the forums more and you'll understand why the post was made. While it is indeed common sense, many many people seem to be lacking in that department when posting these days. Ultimately, I don't know why people are actually debating in this thread. The point behind his posts are entirely accurate and something everybody should be behind. "Don't post shit you don't know about." That seems like a pretty good rule everybody should get behind. Nobody wants to read 9 pages of people theorycrafting out of their asses to finally get to a post of legitimate value. Like I said, writing about the obvious. I am reading the forums a lot, and I know a lot of people think they are the shit because of their mid-diamond rankings, but as I have explained earlier, I still think it is good that they do it because some LOWER people that come ehre to get some advices can still learn from these. Again, I agree with the topic, I just dont see the point of it. Its just like going outside and screaming ''LYING IS BAD'', everyone knows you are right, but they still will keep on doing it. (Also, Id like to add that even though I said I agree with him, im not truly honest. I agree with the general thing hes trying to explain through his post, but the way it is written makes it REALLY seem like a ''if youre mid-diamond, dont argument with a top player because he will always be right'', which especially in any sports is terrible, someone that loves watching the game and its strategies can know a lot more than the actual player. (see coaches in BW proteams, see experienced casters to a certain extent, etc.) | ||
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roofs
Canada112 Posts
On August 25 2010 03:19 Ghazwan wrote: See, we are kinda running in a viscous circle. Now, you say someone with mediocre results is capable of judging what's going on in a game. This, in turn, relates to mid diamond players in question and means some of them are perfectly capable of understanding the game well. Yeah my bad, should've been selective with my points But he's attacking their credibility, not their knowledge of the game. He acknowledges that there may be posters that are good. You don't have to be a high calibre player to know when someone's credibility is false. Should've emphasized that. | ||
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Deleted User 3420
24492 Posts
On August 25 2010 03:18 FabledIntegral wrote: Completely incorrect. I don't even understand why you are making such claims. Limiting "deeper knowledge of the game," to pros is utterly ridiculous. People who are rank 500 Diamond are most likely within the top 10% of all players. Whether or not you think this constitutes YOUR personal definition of "great understanding of the game," relative to everyone else, they DO. Your iccup scale is also just a gross exaggeration. I think your OP lacks almost zero credibility, and it amazes me you're stating it as a fact. A D+ in iccup was better than 80% of the rest of players in BW as well. Relative to everyone else, a D+ in iccup has a significantly better understanding of the game. ahh good points made in this post however it doesn't contradict saracen's last couple paragraphs, which despite the mass of elitism i think is the actual point he's trying to make | ||
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Senx
Sweden5901 Posts
Rank is blinding. Just beacuse you're winning alot of games in a newly released game, doesn't automaticly make you know what the fuck you're talking about. | ||
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Rotodyne
United States2263 Posts
On August 25 2010 03:18 FabledIntegral wrote: Completely incorrect. I don't even understand why you are making such claims. Limiting "deeper knowledge of the game," to pros is utterly ridiculous. People who are rank 500 Diamond are most likely within the top 10% of all players. Whether or not you think this constitutes YOUR personal definition of "great understanding of the game," relative to everyone else, they DO. Your iccup scale is also just a gross exaggeration. I think your OP lacks almost zero credibility, and it amazes me you're stating it as a fact. As a ~500 Diamond player I can be sure that the OP is definitely accurate.  Top 10% or top 5% of players currently means nothing because the game is so new. The vast majority of SC2 diamond players have absolutely no idea what they are doing compared to the knowledge that B player ICCup players had in broodwar.Just because they are better relative to everyone else does not mean they understand the game or they are qualified to teach the game to lesser people. It's been said a million times, the biggest difference between a diamond and a lower rank is macro. Which a lot of players learned from broodwar and has nothing to do with game knowledge. | ||
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alexpnd
Canada1857 Posts
On August 25 2010 02:28 Dragonsven wrote: Yet another post describing why diamond players are not good and only old school players should comment on anything. I was expecting a rule on post count by the end. You should realize this kind of elitism does not work and you will end up driving all the new posters away once the initial boost from SC2 ends. It's a post towards the competitive players not the casuals. Competitive kids stick around even when someone is trying to tell them what to do. | ||
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rredtooth
5461 Posts
On August 25 2010 03:21 YaKool wrote: because your sample size is huge and your rating is something to be proud of right?I'm a gold player and I've been hanging at D on ICCup playing around 20 games with 1300~ points. It's not the best to assume that all gold players are worse than an E rank because there could be a gold player who would be better than some of the diamond players out there. anyways i totally agree with this. i had no prior knowledge in SC2 and played less than 5 total games during beta. after a quick run through liquipedia and C+ iccup skills i was able to beat 1000+ diamond players with relative ease. still stuck in platinum though because supposedly i haven't lost enough. am really disappointed at how bad the "top diamond players" are. | ||
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I_Love_Bacon
United States5765 Posts
On August 25 2010 03:18 FabledIntegral wrote: Completely incorrect. I don't even understand why you are making such claims. Limiting "deeper knowledge of the game," to pros is utterly ridiculous. People who are rank 500 Diamond are most likely within the top 10% of all players. Whether or not you think this constitutes YOUR personal definition of "great understanding of the game," relative to everyone else, they DO. Your iccup scale is also just a gross exaggeration. I think your OP lacks almost zero credibility, and it amazes me you're stating it as a fact. A D+ in iccup was better than 80% of the rest of players in BW as well. Relative to everyone else, a D+ in iccup has a significantly better understanding of the game. One of the biggest differences is that if you're smart or dedicated enough time to actually come to a starcraft 2 website to try to learn... you're going to be better than 80% of the players out there within a very short time. People don't just stumble onto teamliquid looking for porn and decide to stay for starcraft. They come here looking to learn and improve. | ||
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Jandos
Czech Republic928 Posts
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OreoBoi
Canada1639 Posts
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Deleted User 3420
24492 Posts
On August 25 2010 03:26 redtooth wrote: because your sample size is huge and your rating is something to be proud of right? anyways i totally agree with this. i had no prior knowledge in SC2 and played less than 5 total games during beta. after a quick run through liquipedia and C+ iccup skills i was able to beat 1000+ diamond players with relative ease. still stuck in platinum though because supposedly i haven't lost enough. am really disappointed at how bad the "top diamond players" are. so basically you are judging shit based upon having played a very small amount of games, relatively speaking? | ||
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FabledIntegral
United States9232 Posts
On August 25 2010 03:24 Rotodyne wrote: As a ~500 Diamond player I can be sure that the OP is definitely accurate. Top 10% or top 5% of players currently means nothing because the game is so new. The vast majority of SC2 diamond players have absolutely no idea what they are doing compared to the knowledge that B player ICup players had in broodwar. Just because they are better relative to everyone else does not mean they understand the game or they are qualified to teach the game to lesser people. It's been said a million times, the biggest difference between a diamond and a lower rank is macro. Which a lot of players learned from broodwar and has nothing to do with game knowledge. A B player's understanding of the game in BW is completely irrelevant, because the game has been out so long. By what you are saying IdrA has little understanding of the game because of how different it will be 5 years from now. All that matters is people's knowledge relative to other people's knowledge. If you are a rank ~500 diamond, it doesn't matter if you will "suck" 5 years from now. The point is, if you're ~500 Diamond, you are in the top tier of players. No, not the top 0.001%. But you are in the top ~5-7% of players. And that says something. TL just happens to have a higher frequency of high level users so that 5-7% is constantly frequenting the forums. But if you think you're lost, more people are even MORE lost than you, and thus your information is typically not detrimental to the game, but helpful. | ||
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TurpinOS
Canada1223 Posts
On August 25 2010 03:18 FabledIntegral wrote: Completely incorrect. I don't even understand why you are making such claims. Limiting "deeper knowledge of the game," to pros is utterly ridiculous. People who are rank 500 Diamond are most likely within the top 10% of all players. Whether or not you think this constitutes YOUR personal definition of "great understanding of the game," relative to everyone else, they DO. Your iccup scale is also just a gross exaggeration. I think your OP lacks almost zero credibility, and it amazes me you're stating it as a fact. A D+ in iccup was better than 80% of the rest of players in BW as well. Relative to everyone else, a D+ in iccup has a significantly better understanding of the game. Good post here, also just leads to my point that, even though someone shouldnt ''brag'' about his 500 diamond point, it still is useful for the gold/silver player because when seeing that a ''500 pt diamond'' wrote that, he knows he can probably learn from it. | ||
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Reason.SC2
Canada1047 Posts
On August 25 2010 03:09 Nadir wrote: I could be wrong, but isn't this just an Argument from authority? All in all though, I agree with Chill. A bit of humility wouldn't hurt the forum imo It is a fallacy to argue based on authority but there's a reason why fallacies are so effective in real-life argumentation theory: they are usually indicative of a general trend. So to say chance is you should listen to a university math professor rather than a bag boy, when you ask what is the square root of 225, is pretty reasonable. If you tried to live your life based on deductive reasoning only, avoiding all fallacious thought, you wouldn't even be able to get out of bed in the morning lol. | ||
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japro
172 Posts
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NoobieOne
United States1183 Posts
for those of you who care the 3 cheeses were 6 pool which I beat All in 5?? gate (yes I snuck a late scout in and saw 5 warp gates) which actually beat me because i mis-microed and didn't force field properly The third was 4 rax reaper. For all you terran players out there reapers are terrible against stalkers. | ||
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