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Agree! (mostly) I also agree with some saying that gold advice is still valuable to gold player. So it's still useful to mention what your ranking is when you're giving some advice.
Anyway, is anyone here saying "oh, Idra doesn't understand anything about this game, I'm right!" ?
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I'm a 500 pt diamond player and my terribleness could probably not be described with iccup ratings. A player isn't good because he's diamond. I'm the living proof. Anyone trying to back up his opinions by stating "hey look I'm diamond" is probably a guy to ignore.
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One should also not ignore the fact that what is "wrong" or "right" depends quite strongly on the situation/level a player is in. What works on a pro level will possibly not work at all in silver division and vice versa. That's something I learned from BW...
I started playing BW like a year ago and was internalizing most of the "standard" Terran builds. I'd do ok (by my standards) against T and Z but always lost horribly against P. All the advice i ever got was: "siege expand/FD and then push off 4 or 5 factories when P takes his third base". But it NEVER worked like that. I supposedly should have an advantage due to the expansion timing but I just didn't. Then after quite some time i found a post where someone talked about how to micro your about 4(!) tanks during that timing push and I was like "WTF? which toss takes his third base so early that i only have 4 tanks?". That was when I realized that this strategy was mainly adressing "highlevel" play where people expanded much more agressively and not the level I was at where most toss would just mass and tech to arbiters off two bases...
Similarely all the balance strategy discussions concerning for example the TvZ reaver builds etc. are taylored for the pro level, while even at low diamond zerg might feel that it can be easily countered by this and that simply because the build doesn't scale well with the terrans skill. So when a low/mid diamond player contradicts a very highlievel player as how to deal with the build, both might be actually right considering they aren't up against the same competition.
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100% agreed, also
I'm ~600 points diamond player + Show Spoiler +from LAtina America servers!!!1!!1!11
Which means I am Gold NA, Silver EU, Bronze KR. No idea about what would I be on SEA servers.
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I can't stand the whole "compare sc2 ranks to sc1 iccup ranks". They are different games. I find it annoying to try to compare 2 different ladders in 2 different games.
(but I guess you're just trying to make a point)
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On August 25 2010 02:45 wantPopRocks wrote:
Agree! (mostly) I also agree with some saying that gold advice is still valuable to gold player. So it's still useful to mention what your ranking is when you're giving some advice.
Anyway, is anyone here saying "oh, Idra doesn't understand anything about this game, I'm right!" ?
Mid level diamond terran players 
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On August 25 2010 02:44 vyyye wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2010 02:41 Dragonsven wrote:On August 25 2010 02:37 vyyye wrote:On August 25 2010 02:34 Dragonsven wrote:On August 25 2010 02:33 roofs wrote:On August 25 2010 02:28 Dragonsven wrote:
Yet another post describing why diamond players are not good and only old school players should comment on anything. I was expecting a rule on post count by the end. You should realize this kind of elitism does not work and you will end up driving all the new posters away once the initial boost from SC2 ends. I don't think you read the post closely enough. 'this kind of elitism does not work'? He's warning the waves of new SC2 players not to listen to the thousands of mid level diamond players claiming to know everything there is. There's alot of bad information and he's simply telling the truth about how alot of these all-in diamond players havent truly explored the game. He's not saying that, he's saying their opinion doesn't matter and is probably wrong. No, he clearly states that a high ranked player will in 99% cases be right if he contradicts the mid diamond player and that the credentials "I'm in diamond" doesn't really mean much. He even mentioned that lower level players can have valuable insight in the OP. Look, I don't want to argue this all day. I just think it was a post that didn't really need to written. All it results in is insulting some players who just want to theorycraft but now won't because "they're just diamond players." It reeks of elitism. If you were so dumb as to take a random diamond player over a professional gamer's opinion than you are just stupid. You don't need a post telling you not to do that. A lot of posters are stupid and need a post to tell them that. Just have a look in any of the Terran imbalance threads, the quality of some posts is downright absurd. The term 'elitism' gets thrown aroudn a lot, but is it that bad? The most 'elitist' board I've ever found is "Elitist Jerks" which is one of the more pleasant forum experiences as the absolute majority of the posts were worth reading. Much rather have that than the current "I'm a 600p diamond zerg so I know terrans fucking imbalanced ffs".
I personally could care less how much or little elitism exists on this forum. But the people who run this site should care very much because it will determine how well they retain new members.
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btw those rating numbers will continue to inflate as the bonus pool will keep growing as the days go by .... and i agree with the OP.. i was a D+ player in bw and now a 600-700 diamond in sc2.
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On August 25 2010 02:44 vyyye wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2010 02:41 Dragonsven wrote:On August 25 2010 02:37 vyyye wrote:On August 25 2010 02:34 Dragonsven wrote:On August 25 2010 02:33 roofs wrote:On August 25 2010 02:28 Dragonsven wrote:
Yet another post describing why diamond players are not good and only old school players should comment on anything. I was expecting a rule on post count by the end. You should realize this kind of elitism does not work and you will end up driving all the new posters away once the initial boost from SC2 ends. I don't think you read the post closely enough. 'this kind of elitism does not work'? He's warning the waves of new SC2 players not to listen to the thousands of mid level diamond players claiming to know everything there is. There's alot of bad information and he's simply telling the truth about how alot of these all-in diamond players havent truly explored the game. He's not saying that, he's saying their opinion doesn't matter and is probably wrong. No, he clearly states that a high ranked player will in 99% cases be right if he contradicts the mid diamond player and that the credentials "I'm in diamond" doesn't really mean much. He even mentioned that lower level players can have valuable insight in the OP. Look, I don't want to argue this all day. I just think it was a post that didn't really need to written. All it results in is insulting some players who just want to theorycraft but now won't because "they're just diamond players." It reeks of elitism. If you were so dumb as to take a random diamond player over a professional gamer's opinion than you are just stupid. You don't need a post telling you not to do that. A lot of posters are stupid and need a post to tell them that. Just have a look in any of the Terran imbalance threads, the quality of some posts is downright absurd. The term 'elitism' gets thrown aroudn a lot, but is it that bad? The most 'elitist' board I've ever found is "Elitist Jerks" which is one of the more pleasant forum experiences as the absolute majority of the posts were worth reading. Much rather have that than the current "I'm a 600p diamond zerg so I know terrans fucking imbalanced ffs".
Agreed.
Forgot all about Elitist Jerks. They are the perfect example of how good a forum can be when rational elitism is an accepted attitude.
Anyways, I'm pretty sure Dragonsven misunderstood the post, or read it from the wrong perspective. I don't see where he got the idea of how 'he's insulting people who just want to theorycraft'. It's the opposite, he's insulting the people who take so much pride in their 500-600 diamond ratings.
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On August 25 2010 02:46 Dragonsven wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2010 02:44 vyyye wrote:On August 25 2010 02:41 Dragonsven wrote:On August 25 2010 02:37 vyyye wrote:On August 25 2010 02:34 Dragonsven wrote:On August 25 2010 02:33 roofs wrote:On August 25 2010 02:28 Dragonsven wrote:
Yet another post describing why diamond players are not good and only old school players should comment on anything. I was expecting a rule on post count by the end. You should realize this kind of elitism does not work and you will end up driving all the new posters away once the initial boost from SC2 ends. I don't think you read the post closely enough. 'this kind of elitism does not work'? He's warning the waves of new SC2 players not to listen to the thousands of mid level diamond players claiming to know everything there is. There's alot of bad information and he's simply telling the truth about how alot of these all-in diamond players havent truly explored the game. He's not saying that, he's saying their opinion doesn't matter and is probably wrong. No, he clearly states that a high ranked player will in 99% cases be right if he contradicts the mid diamond player and that the credentials "I'm in diamond" doesn't really mean much. He even mentioned that lower level players can have valuable insight in the OP. Look, I don't want to argue this all day. I just think it was a post that didn't really need to written. All it results in is insulting some players who just want to theorycraft but now won't because "they're just diamond players." It reeks of elitism. If you were so dumb as to take a random diamond player over a professional gamer's opinion than you are just stupid. You don't need a post telling you not to do that. A lot of posters are stupid and need a post to tell them that. Just have a look in any of the Terran imbalance threads, the quality of some posts is downright absurd. The term 'elitism' gets thrown aroudn a lot, but is it that bad? The most 'elitist' board I've ever found is "Elitist Jerks" which is one of the more pleasant forum experiences as the absolute majority of the posts were worth reading. Much rather have that than the current "I'm a 600p diamond zerg so I know terrans fucking imbalanced ffs". I personally could care less how much or little elitism exists on this forum. But the people who run this site should care very much because it will determine how well they retain new members.
assuming they actually want a horde of inexperienced know-nothings running around contradicting everything being said
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I didn't even know there was an epidemic (I don't visit the strat forum that often) of 800 Diamonds arguing with the likes of Huk, MorroW, IdrA, Nony, Louder, SLush, Sheth, QXC, Incontrol or any of the other noteable posters on TL. I know from my personal experience I pretty much take their posts as gospel handed down from the Starcraft2 Lords themselves.
However if MorroW isn't answering my 1Rax FE build midgame transition post I'd gladly accept a 1200 joe-blow Diamond to give me some insight.
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On August 25 2010 02:46 Dragonsven wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2010 02:44 vyyye wrote:On August 25 2010 02:41 Dragonsven wrote:On August 25 2010 02:37 vyyye wrote:On August 25 2010 02:34 Dragonsven wrote:On August 25 2010 02:33 roofs wrote:On August 25 2010 02:28 Dragonsven wrote:
Yet another post describing why diamond players are not good and only old school players should comment on anything. I was expecting a rule on post count by the end. You should realize this kind of elitism does not work and you will end up driving all the new posters away once the initial boost from SC2 ends. I don't think you read the post closely enough. 'this kind of elitism does not work'? He's warning the waves of new SC2 players not to listen to the thousands of mid level diamond players claiming to know everything there is. There's alot of bad information and he's simply telling the truth about how alot of these all-in diamond players havent truly explored the game. He's not saying that, he's saying their opinion doesn't matter and is probably wrong. No, he clearly states that a high ranked player will in 99% cases be right if he contradicts the mid diamond player and that the credentials "I'm in diamond" doesn't really mean much. He even mentioned that lower level players can have valuable insight in the OP. Look, I don't want to argue this all day. I just think it was a post that didn't really need to written. All it results in is insulting some players who just want to theorycraft but now won't because "they're just diamond players." It reeks of elitism. If you were so dumb as to take a random diamond player over a professional gamer's opinion than you are just stupid. You don't need a post telling you not to do that. A lot of posters are stupid and need a post to tell them that. Just have a look in any of the Terran imbalance threads, the quality of some posts is downright absurd. The term 'elitism' gets thrown aroudn a lot, but is it that bad? The most 'elitist' board I've ever found is "Elitist Jerks" which is one of the more pleasant forum experiences as the absolute majority of the posts were worth reading. Much rather have that than the current "I'm a 600p diamond zerg so I know terrans fucking imbalanced ffs". I personally could care less how much or little elitism exists on this forum. But the people who run this site should care very much because it will determine how well they retain new members.
I don't think we'll get anywhere with this, now you're moving onto quality v. quantity, and I don't think the primary goal of TL is the latter. In any case, let's agree to disagree.
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On August 25 2010 02:43 Saracen wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2010 02:37 sikyon wrote:
I'm boiling down your post to the premise that profesional SC players have greater insights than your regular SC player.
Sounds about right. But you've forgotten 1 key thing:
If a 500pt diamond player posts that some sort of strat is good and you think he's full of it because he's not Idra, well that might be true. However, to a plat player he clearly knows what he's doing relativily speaking and his insight is still valuable.
People posting their division/points are not just empty boasts about where they are and why you should take them seriously. It's just information that tells you what level of play this is working for.
Your post also smacks of elitism, and somewhat smells like it's trying to attack players instead of strategies. That's a bad idea. In my opinion it's never acceptable to say "oh look you're only in gold your opinion doesn't matter". It is much more appropriate to say "nope, that won't work and this is why: ..."
The ladder system is, and always will be, relative. If you don't find someone impressive relative to yourself, you should just not take his advice. It will probably be useful to someone below him. People don't jump from silver to diamond by using diamond strategies all of a sudden. They do it by going gold, then plat, then diamond, whatever that entails. This is true, and I agree with your entire post (sorry if you feel it was elitist). The problem is there's a lot of people saying "nope, that won't work and this is why" without even trying the strategy out (i.e. mindless theorycrafting). On the other hand, a top player will probably have experienced the strategy before firsthand and know exactly why it doesn't work. So he'll be able truthfully to say "nope, that won't work and this is why."
Well your post wasn't really elitist, I guess I just read into it too much  It was very well argued. I agree that there is perhaps too little experience and too much bluster here much of the time. But I think that's something fundamental to the internet and message boards. I mean I totally agree that a pro player has better insight than a regular player, if by nothing more than sheer experiance (considering how many games they play). Points are not an inidicator that you are some sort of fantastic SC god, just that you are there, you are probably better than someone with less points (All things equal) and you have an opinion which is perhaps backed up by experience.
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infinity21
Canada6683 Posts
On August 25 2010 02:38 rS.Sinatra wrote:
im 150 point rank 1 diamond player, what say is the troofus doofus!
j/k
This article is pretty well written and I agree with most of what it says. With the current league system being what it is (500 divisions full of 100 players each) there is no discerning who is actually good except for those names that are consistently at the very top or have a good win-ratio. Also, there's nothing to be proud if you are 1000 point diamond player with 700 games... it pretty much means you hit your ceiling and are where you belong.
Yeah, I've played a few guys on ladder like this (at least two who are in the blizzard top 200) and they are pretty bad players. They tend to use a lot of 1 base all-ins or uninspired builds that are easy to crack open.
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Top SC2 players have played for a few months, most top BW players have played for nearly a decade. It makes complete sense for it to be easier to reach the skill level of those of the best when the best aren't really (relatively) that good yet. This doesn't change the fact that diamond consists of the top 5% (iirc.) of the player pool.
As the average skill level evolves we will notice the system becoming more and more like iccup's, a system that fucks up the casual player's enjoyment because even the lowest skill tier is populated by experienced players, assuming SC2 doesn't get a constant stream of new users.
I do agree that at this point being diamond is worthless information because literally everyone is bad. IdrA, TLO and other top players are currently absolutely terrible compared to what they will be like after a few years down the road.
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By assigning these arbitrary traits to even more arbitrary ladder rankings is like telling a professional sport player that he's not good because he's not on the A line up. There are many terrible diamond players, but there are also some amazing players that just dont put much effort into ladder and are sitting at 600 to 800. For example, on my second account which i use protoss with (Which incidently is higher ranked than my main zerg account, significantly, 1100 diamond) I played against a zerg 1050 player who after chatting told me he baneling bust every single game. He was no good, 60 apm, but 1050 diamond. Yet you say he is equivalent to B?. Short story, Ladder rankings are irrelevant, the only way to tell is to follow ones play style and see how they play the game. If they play aggresive, is there a point to it? do they play a very mechanical style effectively, with a plan and a solid BO? Or do they do random things that just dont make sense, dont have a plan, and are overall just trying to emulate.
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This will all be resolved once pro league comes out
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So, just to clear this up - is this a post from a 600-900 Diamond player, saying that 600-900 Diamond players shouldn't really be taken serious just cos they're Diamond, and they right flashy posts claiming they know what they're talking about? 
J/K but still ^_^
3/10 for the "trying-to-make-it-funny" style (no offense), but on a serious note - couldn't agree more on the main points - basically, don't take something for granted just because someone claims to be diamond (which isn't a prerequisite of having any understanding of the game whatsoever).
I'm still iffy on the "argue with known players" subject - generally I'd tend to agree, but come to think of it, if a gold player who read about Magic Box came here a week ago and argued that Mutas are actually strong against Thors when used properly, for example the aforementioned Idra, who recently learned about the trick, could've told him to gtfo&l2p, and many 'freethinkers' would've jumped the bandwagon. Random example, doesn't mean much, but still. Guess it comes down to always thinking before making a claim
Much love
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On August 25 2010 02:48 Jameser wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2010 02:46 Dragonsven wrote:On August 25 2010 02:44 vyyye wrote:On August 25 2010 02:41 Dragonsven wrote:On August 25 2010 02:37 vyyye wrote:On August 25 2010 02:34 Dragonsven wrote:On August 25 2010 02:33 roofs wrote:On August 25 2010 02:28 Dragonsven wrote:
Yet another post describing why diamond players are not good and only old school players should comment on anything. I was expecting a rule on post count by the end. You should realize this kind of elitism does not work and you will end up driving all the new posters away once the initial boost from SC2 ends. I don't think you read the post closely enough. 'this kind of elitism does not work'? He's warning the waves of new SC2 players not to listen to the thousands of mid level diamond players claiming to know everything there is. There's alot of bad information and he's simply telling the truth about how alot of these all-in diamond players havent truly explored the game. He's not saying that, he's saying their opinion doesn't matter and is probably wrong. No, he clearly states that a high ranked player will in 99% cases be right if he contradicts the mid diamond player and that the credentials "I'm in diamond" doesn't really mean much. He even mentioned that lower level players can have valuable insight in the OP. Look, I don't want to argue this all day. I just think it was a post that didn't really need to written. All it results in is insulting some players who just want to theorycraft but now won't because "they're just diamond players." It reeks of elitism. If you were so dumb as to take a random diamond player over a professional gamer's opinion than you are just stupid. You don't need a post telling you not to do that. A lot of posters are stupid and need a post to tell them that. Just have a look in any of the Terran imbalance threads, the quality of some posts is downright absurd. The term 'elitism' gets thrown aroudn a lot, but is it that bad? The most 'elitist' board I've ever found is "Elitist Jerks" which is one of the more pleasant forum experiences as the absolute majority of the posts were worth reading. Much rather have that than the current "I'm a 600p diamond zerg so I know terrans fucking imbalanced ffs". I personally could care less how much or little elitism exists on this forum. But the people who run this site should care very much because it will determine how well they retain new members. assuming they actually want a horde of inexperienced know-nothings running around contradicting everything being said
I'm pretty sure the goal of every site is to get more traffic, not less. But I see your point =]
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On August 25 2010 02:49 sikyon wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2010 02:43 Saracen wrote:On August 25 2010 02:37 sikyon wrote:
I'm boiling down your post to the premise that profesional SC players have greater insights than your regular SC player.
Sounds about right. But you've forgotten 1 key thing:
If a 500pt diamond player posts that some sort of strat is good and you think he's full of it because he's not Idra, well that might be true. However, to a plat player he clearly knows what he's doing relativily speaking and his insight is still valuable.
People posting their division/points are not just empty boasts about where they are and why you should take them seriously. It's just information that tells you what level of play this is working for.
Your post also smacks of elitism, and somewhat smells like it's trying to attack players instead of strategies. That's a bad idea. In my opinion it's never acceptable to say "oh look you're only in gold your opinion doesn't matter". It is much more appropriate to say "nope, that won't work and this is why: ..."
The ladder system is, and always will be, relative. If you don't find someone impressive relative to yourself, you should just not take his advice. It will probably be useful to someone below him. People don't jump from silver to diamond by using diamond strategies all of a sudden. They do it by going gold, then plat, then diamond, whatever that entails. This is true, and I agree with your entire post (sorry if you feel it was elitist). The problem is there's a lot of people saying "nope, that won't work and this is why" without even trying the strategy out (i.e. mindless theorycrafting). On the other hand, a top player will probably have experienced the strategy before firsthand and know exactly why it doesn't work. So he'll be able truthfully to say "nope, that won't work and this is why." Well your post wasn't really elitist, I guess I just read into it too much It was very well argued. I agree that there is perhaps too little experience and too much bluster here much of the time. But I think that's something fundamental to the internet and message boards. I mean I totally agree that a pro player has better insight than a regular player, if by nothing more than sheer experiance (considering how many games they play). Points are not an inidicator that you are some sort of fantastic SC god, just that you are there, you are probably better than someone with less points (All things equal) and you have an opinion which is perhaps backed up by experience.
Better by what standards? I'm trying to argue that even though you have more points, that doesn't necessarily mean you understand the game better. Just that you know how to win better. And I think that over time, the person who understands the game better will eventually grow to know how to win better as well. 
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EPT
