EPTThe Truth About Diamond League - Page 3
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Nub4ever
Canada1981 Posts
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sikyon
Canada1045 Posts
Sounds about right. But you've forgotten 1 key thing: If a 500pt diamond player posts that some sort of strat is good and you think he's full of it because he's not Idra, well that might be true. However, to a plat player he clearly knows what he's doing relativily speaking and his insight is still valuable. People posting their division/points are not just empty boasts about where they are and why you should take them seriously. It's just information that tells you what level of play this is working for. Your post also smacks of elitism, and somewhat smells like it's trying to attack players instead of strategies. That's a bad idea. In my opinion it's never acceptable to say "oh look you're only in gold your opinion doesn't matter". It is much more appropriate to say "nope, that won't work and this is why: ..." The ladder system is, and always will be, relative. If you don't find someone impressive relative to yourself, you should just not take his advice. It will probably be useful to someone below him. People don't jump from silver to diamond by using diamond strategies all of a sudden. They do it by going gold, then plat, then diamond, whatever that entails. | ||
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Pebble
Germany326 Posts
In general I give zergs more credit for being mid-high diamond than players of the other races since zerg is most of the time reactive (beyond baneling-allin and other 1base shenanigans). | ||
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rS.Sinatra
Canada785 Posts
j/k This article is pretty well written and I agree with most of what it says. With the current league system being what it is (500 divisions full of 100 players each) there is no discerning who is actually good except for those names that are consistently at the very top or have a good win-ratio. Also, there's nothing to be proud if you are 1000 point diamond player with 700 games... it pretty much means you hit your ceiling and are where you belong. | ||
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Bob300
United States505 Posts
PS sinatra its not that they hit there ceiling it could be that they slowly move up with a close to 50% win ratio. PS TSL Lore I do the same thing to beat a 4gate  works every time. Except the one time i tried it against sinatra... and he crushed me in a gosu coaching tourney, but he didn't 4gate. | ||
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TSL-Lore
United States412 Posts
Then, they'd leave the game without GGing and I meet them again on the ladder immediately. I say "gl, hf" and they say "STFU NOOB" and proceed to do the same 4-gate build. Then I crush it again with the same counter-build response and ask them "if you know it won't work, why do you do it again" and they once again respond with a bunch of tears/rage. Yet, these players are making it into 800.. 900 even 1000 ranges (as some are slightly favored or even with me at 950). I'm amazed as to how far this kind of play can get you. I hope SaracenS is right in that SC2 is a deep enough game where players who don't truly understand the game will stagnate, while other players who really take the time and have the discipline will move on. | ||
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Arm4n
United States103 Posts
these types of players don't have the proper macro or mechanics to last at the ratings they are sitting at and will eventually drop massive amount of points once people start understanding standard build orders that are really safe to open with. the current state of 800+ diamond is a lot of 1 base barrel your opponent down and oh shit i have to expand because i'm running out of minerals. this is at least my experience in this bracket having played over 600 games at this point probably something like 60% protoss 25% zerg 15% terran. i mean just as protoss i can tell you right now that at least 50% of the time its testers 4 warpgate zealot rush with pylons in your opponents base. this build is insanely difficult to hold off if its on a 4 player map and you scout it last. i hope to see more people playing a macro orientated game but i know from my experience on iccup that this is probably not going to be the case most of the time. | ||
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Tenks
United States3104 Posts
On August 25 2010 02:34 teamsolid wrote: Sadly I really doubt this will ever be true. They're in diamond because it works. 1 base all-ins are actually legitimately strong in many cases. Hell, even SC2 pros use 1-base plays quite often, just watch the IEM. I'd say at least a third of nonmirror matchups involved a 1-base play from one player in the IEM. Well.. maybe like in a year or two, it could change, but who knows. It could easily have to do with the current 1v1 map pools which favor aggressive all-in style play. With that said, the OP's post seems to drip with pretense and elitism | ||
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Glacierz
United States1244 Posts
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alexanderzero
United States659 Posts
Platinum (not stuck-in-platinum-because-stupid-system-won't-promote-me but actual platinum): I have played through my build order more than twenty times. Platinum players aren't even necessarily this good. Take me for example. I may have played about 10-20 games in the beta and I've played about 20 more games since launch. I'm in Platinum, and don't ever use set build orders (which I think holds me back in some games but saves my ass in others). I guess that the majority of my games do start with a 13-pool or a 14-pool (with the exception of ZvZ where I usually have to get the pool earlier). | ||
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Dragonsven
United States145 Posts
On August 25 2010 02:37 vyyye wrote: No, he clearly states that a high ranked player will in 99% cases be right if he contradicts the mid diamond player and that the credentials "I'm in diamond" doesn't really mean much. He even mentioned that lower level players can have valuable insight in the OP. Look, I don't want to argue this all day. I just think it was a post that didn't really need to written. All it results in is insulting some players who just want to theorycraft but now won't because "they're just diamond players." It reeks of elitism. If you were so dumb as to take a random diamond player over a professional gamer's opinion than you are just stupid. You don't need a post telling you not to do that. | ||
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roofs
Canada112 Posts
On August 25 2010 02:37 sikyon wrote: I'm boiling down your post to the premise that profesional SC players have greater insights than your regular SC player. Sounds about right. But you've forgotten 1 key thing: If a 500pt diamond player posts that some sort of strat is good and you think he's full of it because he's not Idra, well that might be true. However, to a plat player he clearly knows what he's doing relativily speaking and his insight is still valuable. People posting their division/points are not just empty boasts about where they are and why you should take them seriously. It's just information that tells you what level of play this is working for. Your post also smacks of elitism, and somewhat smells like it's trying to attack players instead of strategies. That's a bad idea. In my opinion it's never acceptable to say "oh look you're only in gold your opinion doesn't matter". It is much more appropriate to say "nope, that won't work and this is why: ..." Read the post again. He even stated that alot of good theorycrafting can come from bronze/low level diamond players. And he's not attacking people based on their division. If you read closely he knows a lot of ideas come from everywhere. He's attacking people that use their ranking as 'support' or 'credibility' for their posts. | ||
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.Soul
Canada81 Posts
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Azile
United States339 Posts
I have a few builds down to open with (14 hatch, 13 gas 14 pool, 16 hatch, etc), I know my playstyle is a defensive macro-oriented style, I know I need to scout constantly and adapt to what happens.. past that I basically fly by the seat of my pants. I win a lot of games merely by holding off the inevitable all-in push then just pumping drones and expanding. By the time they try again if they ever do i'm so far ahead they can't possibly stop me. Off the top of my head I couldn't even tell you how much a tank costs, or a colossus, or what upgrades are available for protoss air units. I have no idea when the optimal time to take a third base is, I have no idea what to do against macro terran play (good thing most of them don't know what that is), I know what to make according to what I scout but that's about all. I build evo chambers and forget to upgrade, I mass overlords in my main because I forget to position them around the map for scouting, I forget to take drones off gas after speedling upgrade, I forget to put drones back on gas if I have to take them off for some reason (hellions), I build infestor pits and forget to go Hive then wonder why I can't make an ultra cavern, etc. But that's what practice is for. -) | ||
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Saracen
United States5139 Posts
On August 25 2010 02:37 sikyon wrote: I'm boiling down your post to the premise that profesional SC players have greater insights than your regular SC player. Sounds about right. But you've forgotten 1 key thing: If a 500pt diamond player posts that some sort of strat is good and you think he's full of it because he's not Idra, well that might be true. However, to a plat player he clearly knows what he's doing relativily speaking and his insight is still valuable. People posting their division/points are not just empty boasts about where they are and why you should take them seriously. It's just information that tells you what level of play this is working for. Your post also smacks of elitism, and somewhat smells like it's trying to attack players instead of strategies. That's a bad idea. In my opinion it's never acceptable to say "oh look you're only in gold your opinion doesn't matter". It is much more appropriate to say "nope, that won't work and this is why: ..." The ladder system is, and always will be, relative. If you don't find someone impressive relative to yourself, you should just not take his advice. It will probably be useful to someone below him. People don't jump from silver to diamond by using diamond strategies all of a sudden. They do it by going gold, then plat, then diamond, whatever that entails. This is true, and I agree with your entire post (sorry if you feel it was elitist). The problem is there's a lot of people saying "nope, that won't work and this is why" without even trying the strategy out (i.e. mindless theorycrafting). On the other hand, a top player will probably have experienced the strategy before firsthand and know exactly why it doesn't work. So he'll be able truthfully to say "nope, that won't work and this is why." | ||
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SpicyCrab
402 Posts
On August 25 2010 02:30 rackdude wrote: Before QQing, learn from Idra. This made me laugh. As for the thread, I agree wholeheartedly. I would actually support some kind of special icon to designate players who were known to be good or knowledgeable. There is a LOT of bad advice on the strategy forum right now. | ||
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wrags
United States379 Posts
On August 25 2010 02:39 Arm4n wrote: well as far as it relates to me it seems right on. i was C+ zerg and i'm 850 diamond. there is a skew here that most won't understand though. there are a lot of players i've lost to and i review their build orders to find that they basically perfected 3-4 builds most of which are all-in builds. this is pretty spot on edit: on the US server at least | ||
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Cofo
United States1388 Posts
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Rikard Krigaren
Sweden8 Posts
That's why I don't quite agree with top diamond equaling like a B rank on ICCup. It feels like all you have to do to reach the top of your diamond division is to just spam a hell lot of games. I can't really respect someone who has like 54% win out of like 300 games which is often the case in most divisions. | ||
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vyyye
Sweden3917 Posts
On August 25 2010 02:41 Dragonsven wrote: Look, I don't want to argue this all day. I just think it was a post that didn't really need to written. All it results in is insulting some players who just want to theorycraft but now won't because "they're just diamond players." It reeks of elitism. If you were so dumb as to take a random diamond player over a professional gamer's opinion than you are just stupid. You don't need a post telling you not to do that. A lot of posters are stupid and need a post to tell them that. Just have a look in any of the Terran imbalance threads, the quality of some posts is downright absurd. The term 'elitism' gets thrown aroudn a lot, but is it that bad? The most 'elitist' board I've ever found is "Elitist Jerks" which is one of the more pleasant forum experiences as the absolute majority of the posts were worth reading. Much rather have that than the current "I'm a 600p diamond zerg so I know terrans fucking imbalanced ffs". | ||
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