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I honestly don't have a problem with the 200/200.
My complaint is with the 130 research time.
If Protoss wants to get a Warp Prism, its 165 seconds from the time they put down the Cybernetics Core.
If Terran wants to get a Medivac, its 152 seconds from the time they put down their Factory.
If Zerg wants to get Ventral Sacs, its 210 seconds from the time they start their Lair.
Silver vs IdrA (where IdrA flips out telling him to apologize for playing that race) showed very well how stupid this is where 1 tank on a cliff can completely destroy a hatchery before Ventral Sacs is feasibly researched (IdrA had about 20 seconds left on his research - which he started blind btw - when his expo went down. If you pay attention to that, you can see why he rages so hard). There is literally nothing Z can do to stop it.
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300/300 for speed and sacs is too much. and th eresearch time for sacs is beyond fair.
yes you get all overlords = transports. Great.
medievacs heal, prisms can warp in units
by the time you even get 300 gas to get both, terran could have dropped your cliff and killed off your expo. In any real game, t/p are building units and being aggressive, thus z has to keep and army as well which costs minerals/gas. Sure, you only gotta spend 100 gas on ur dropship, but does blizzard really expect a zerg to save up 300gas for these upgrades? WHEN does a zerg ever have 300 gas after hitting t2? Bad enough we're stuck with units that cant hit air at t1, we have to get hydras to fill some sort of AA role and anti gateway/marauder roll. How can i get 300 gas if i need gas to stay alive? its just silly.
Id rather have a dropship like terran that costs 100 gas so i can take back a cliff rather than having to bank 300 and wait 10 years for them to finish before i can ATTEMPT to take back my cliff. The current state of the units mix for zerg early game and the importance of getting t2 tech and units out ASAP makes it ridiculous for such an expensive and time consuming upgrade.
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Imo Burrow, Ventral sacks and Ovy speed should all be 75/75. Ventral sacks should maybe be a bit more like 125/125.
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Cost for overlord transort: 650/400 for 1st overlord, but all overlord can transport so you can minus 100 from that since you already have them
Spawning Pool - 200
Lair 150/100
Sacs 200/200
Speed 100/100
Overlord 100
Cost for medivacs: 550/300 for 1st medivac
Barracks - 150
Factory - 150/100
Starport - 150/100
Medivac - 100/100
Cost for prism: 700/100 for 1st warp prism
Gateway- 150
Core - 150
Robo - 200/100
Prism - 200
Seems fine resource wise.
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its okay, the only good suggestion was to move it on tier1, since it cost a lot and overlords are slow, it wouldn't be any imba in it.
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realistically, its a cheap price for having 10-20-30 dropships (ovies)...
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200/200 isn't terrible, however I would like to see the build time reduced 10-20 seconds. Its a tad too slow.
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Guys, a Nydus Network costs 150/200, and single Nydus Worm costs 100/100. So that's only 50 minerals cheaper than researching lord speed and ventral sacks forever. Also consider, each new nydus worm takes another 100/100. If you build a second nydus worm, suddenly you've spent more gas.
What about time? The total combined time for a Nydus pair is 50 + unloading time. The times for speed and sacs are 50 and 130, respectively, but once you have a lair you can research these techs at lairs AND hatcheries. So you can research them at the same time. It's different than SC1 where you'd need two lairs to research simultaneously. So, the real time is 130. That's a good amount more than 50, sure, but unless you're rushing to Nydus, I think that 80 seconds is not that big of a difference.
Are they tactically equivalent? I would propose that drops are better. Anytime you build a nydus, you have to assume they're not close enough to kill it in the 20 second build time (or when only a couple units have come out). If you would feel safe for those 20 seconds, that's more than enough time for lords to drop their WHOLE army. The units will also come out faster with lords.
Why do people constantly spam that Nydus is the secret to the ever desired Zerg renaissance, but drops are completely unfeasible? The cost is similar, the deployment risk is similar... I don't get it. Maybe I'm just not a good enough player to understand.
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Build time is just as much worth mentioning as cost.
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On August 20 2010 11:37 ninjafetus wrote:
Guys, a Nydus Network costs 150/200, and single Nydus Worm costs 100/100. So that's only 50 minerals cheaper than researching lord speed and ventral sacks forever. Also consider, each new nydus worm takes another 100/100. If you build a second nydus worm, suddenly you've spent more gas.
What about time? The total combined time for a Nydus pair is 50 + unloading time. The times for speed and sacs are 50 and 130, respectively, but once you have a lair you can research these techs at lairs AND hatcheries. So you can research them at the same time. It's different than SC1 where you'd need two lairs to research simultaneously. So, the real time is 130. That's a good amount more than 50, sure, but unless you're rushing to Nydus, I think that 80 seconds is not that big of a difference.
Are they tactically equivalent? I would propose that drops are better. Anytime you build a nydus, you have to assume they're not close enough to kill it in the 20 second build time (or when only a couple units have come out). If you would feel safe for those 20 seconds, that's more than enough time for lords to drop their WHOLE army. The units will also come out faster with lords.
Why do people constantly spam that Nydus is the secret to the ever desired Zerg renaissance, but drops are completely unfeasible? The cost is similar, the deployment risk is similar... I don't get it. Maybe I'm just not a good enough player to understand.
Nydus costs way to much for it's spawn time too.
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While 300/300 is a pretty good buy to transport a whole army, I don't think I've ever really seen a game where zerg drops their whole army with overlords and wins (and nydus worms just suck).
This means that zerg is more of a harasser, but 300/300 is often too much of an investment for harassing.
Options: make overseers transport. I think this would be a pretty good idea. It will remove the ability for zerg to drop their entire army using 300/300 overlords, but then again they have nydus worms for that (which need to be buffed though because they suck).
This way zerg only pays a small bit of gas (or really nothing if they get an overseer anyway) for 1 transport, which I think is pretty fair? i don't know, maybe imbalanced baneling drops?
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On August 20 2010 11:26 Seide wrote:
Cost for overlord transort: 650/400 for 1st overlord, but all overlord can transport so you can minus 100 from that since you already have them
Spawning Pool - 200
Lair 150/100
Sacs 200/200
Speed 100/100
Overlord 100
Cost for medivacs: 550/300 for 1st medivac
Barracks - 150
Factory - 150/100
Starport - 150/100
Medivac - 100/100
Cost for prism: 700/100 for 1st warp prism
Gateway- 150
Core - 150
Robo - 200/100
Prism - 200
Seems fine resource wise.
I'd rather have the cost of the warp prism. Okay so I'm doing timings now. I think that might be the problem. All info pulled from sc2armory.com.
ZERG
Spawning Pool: 65
Lair: 80
Pneumatized Carapace: 60
Ventral Sacs: 130
Cost = 335 / 275
Now if you have two bases, you can essentially take off 60 seconds if you do both upgrades at the same time, but you would need 300 gas ready... lol.
TERRAN
Barracks: 60
Factory: 60
Starport: 50
Medivac: 42
Cost = 212
PROTOSS
Gateway: 65
Cybernetics Core: 50
Robotics Facility: 65
Warp Prism: 50
Cost = 230
Now, did you know that the warp gate research is 140 seconds? Yeah, ventral sacs are 130. That's awful.
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yeah build time is worth mentioning I just didnt feel like it, alse the terran/protoss is probably going to drop the minerals on the factories/starports anyway, while a zerg has to go 200/200 out of the way to get the ability, and 100/100 more to make it actually worth using.
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Yeah, other races have better time/cost to get to their first drop, but I was just comparing it to the other Zerg option. You know, using nydus ALSO requires you to have "300 gas ready... lol."
It's slower, but not all that much. And then you have it forever. I can absolutely see how it's more expensive and slower, but the amount is small enough that the comparison of nydus love to drop hate is baffling.
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You also have to remember that losing overlords you can lose supply which is pretty terrible unless you already have 200 (which rarely happens).
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Transportation Overlords take substantially longer to get, cost a lot of gas, and if killed, will cost you more than just minerals - supply too. Some could argue that the Transportation Overlords are producing supply in addition to being transports, but I don't see how flying all of your supply into the enemies base can ever be considered a plus.
Medivacs may cost more in the long run, however, they have an ability to heal, and can be repaired. They're efficient, and they get out quicker than any other transport, oh and double that is there is a reactor attached.
Although the most fragile of the bunch, Warp Prisms can not only transport units but also produce new units for the low-low cost of 100 minerals. You have virtually nothing to lose producing a Warp Prism. They are handy tools to have indeed. Also, if you are in a pinch, the Warp Prism can act as a pylon to power your buildings.
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My main problem is that you first have to tech to lair, which takes a good chunk of time, and then have to wait for 1 upgrade to finish, and then have to wait for one more to finish. I don't mind the price, I just mind how long it takes to get both upgrades. By the time you get all the upgrades, terran sieged your natural down with tanks 4 minutes ago.
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On August 20 2010 11:10 teamsolid wrote:
The drop upgrade might be a little overpriced, but IMO the main problem is the research time. Even if you rush for lair and start drop as soon as you hit it, the Terran will already have sieged tank/thor on your cliff before the drop is even halfway researched. If they reduced research time to say 70 seconds (130 seconds is ridiculous), we'd actually see it out in time to respond to a drop if we aimed for it immediately upon lair (skipping mutas). This would also open up an opportunity for Zerg to punish Terrans for doing an ultra-greedy build (aka. 1-2 tanks sieged behind cliff while constructing their expansion safely), which is extremely common.
I personally think it's ridiculous that both Terran and Protoss can reach their drop tech at least a good minute before Zerg can even get theirs or even their first fliers up. This needs to be looked into if Blizzard keeps making maps with droppable cliffs like LT.
Thisss.
And others, the time is a BIG difference from other races.
Also put into consideration is the fact that, Prisms can Warp In, Medivacs can Heal, Ovies do can spit creep sure but that's not nearly as impressive  . What's also stopping the opponent for killing said overlords? Leaving the Z player possibly supply blocked and the very least having him create more overlords.
And I don't think Overlords with speed are as fast as medivacs or prisms, not too certain on this statement though.
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On August 20 2010 12:08 RoarMan wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2010 11:10 teamsolid wrote:
The drop upgrade might be a little overpriced, but IMO the main problem is the research time. Even if you rush for lair and start drop as soon as you hit it, the Terran will already have sieged tank/thor on your cliff before the drop is even halfway researched. If they reduced research time to say 70 seconds (130 seconds is ridiculous), we'd actually see it out in time to respond to a drop if we aimed for it immediately upon lair (skipping mutas). This would also open up an opportunity for Zerg to punish Terrans for doing an ultra-greedy build (aka. 1-2 tanks sieged behind cliff while constructing their expansion safely), which is extremely common.
I personally think it's ridiculous that both Terran and Protoss can reach their drop tech at least a good minute before Zerg can even get theirs or even their first fliers up. This needs to be looked into if Blizzard keeps making maps with droppable cliffs like LT. Thisss. And others, the time is a BIG difference from other races. Also put into consideration is the fact that, Prisms can Warp In, Medivacs can Heal, Ovies do can spit creep sure but that's not nearly as impressive . What's also stopping the opponent for killing said overlords? Leaving the Z player possibly supply blocked and the very least having him create more overlords. And I don't think Overlords with speed are as fast as medivacs or prisms, not too certain on this statement though.
I agree on the timing issue, and cutting down research time by ~30 seconds would do a lot to help zergs cope with early tank drops.
The whole argument of "medivacs can heal..." "overlords can only spit creep" is bogus. If you are dropping, and you do not lose your OLs, you have free dropships (after the research obviously). Its true that if you lose them, you have to rebuild them to not get supply blocked, but at the same time if Terran loses his medivacs on a drop, his bio army is rendered a lot more useless (Medivacs are a lot more expensive to replace as well). If Toss loses his warp prisms, he can no longer resupply his army during his push (unless if he laid down a pylon at the scene of the battle). All 3 races have to make sacrifices when going for doom drops, and they all stand to lose something in the outcome. A bio army without medivacs can't very well push out successfully, and can be kited.
If you are planning on doom dropping past a line of turrets and losses are inevitable, get your new OLs started before waiting for the drop to end, and going "well that line of turrets killed 3 overlords, now I have to wait a minute before I can build more units". We've had to cope with this issue in BW as well.
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It's kinda funny how people are ignoring the fact that Zerg players are risking being majorly supplied blocked by doing drops.
Lower the cost? Sure...Tier 1? no...that's a little unfair imo.
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EPT
