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now I'm no big-city-lawyer but it seems to me you could make it 300/200 gas with lower research time and have greater success than lowering cost and increasing research time
imo terran dropships serve such diverse functions that you're likely to have them for purpouses outside of purely dropping anyway, and toss dropships cost no gas (also serve as pylon power) so that makes OLs less 'imba' in terms of availability (compared to BW)
the current problem I have with ventral sacs is research time, even if you anticipate a situation where you will need drops (LT) you often find yourself waiting for the research timer, and obviously it should be an investment of some kind so I think raising cost is only fair (numbers are just a suggestion I have no idea what numbers would be balanced)
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On August 20 2010 10:35 SyyRaaaN wrote:[Disclaimer] This post might be interpreted as a balance post but my intention is really more a gameplay oriented post. And yeah, i play random. One of my main issues with zerg is the lack of something droppable. But that isn't entirely true. In fact, Zerg has loads of good droppable units for herass and base razing. A baneling drop would almost be as awesome as a lurkerdrop if not even greater. A 16 ling drop for fast base razing and herass, awesome. But the main problem is the accessibility. It all comes down to this upgrade which i think is heavily overpriced: ![[image loading]](http://sc2pod.com/w/images/d/d0/Ventral_Sacs.png) The Ventral Sacs upgrade for 200 - 200. Thats alot of $, and not to mention that you probably will need the OL speed for 100 - 100 too. Another problem with this hefty price for the overlord drop upgrades is that because of the price it basically shares the same role as the Nydus Worm, at least with the pricing of sacs + OL speed. What i would love to see is the OL drop beeing used for smaller skirmishes while Nydus worms are used for big troop movements. What would happen if the Ventral Sacs upgrade were to be reduced to 50/50 (maybe, with build time increasement) - 200/0 - 100/100 - 75/75? I'm no numbers expert, but this upgrade needs to be looked at imho. Or, maybe going crazy-style and remove the ventral sacs entirely because of its similar role to Nydus worm and change it to an upgrade to the individual overlord for 50/50 (overseer style) accessible after Lair is finished with a 25 second build time, and let it hold 4-6-8 units. Again, im no numbers expert, just examples. My point is, if it's easier to access maybe this could lead to a broader zerg mid game strategy, the good old drop harasses. I think this really would broaden Zerg as the only unit they have for base harassing is basically the mutalisk.
warp prisms cost 350 150 with the robo, and as you already have the ovies, that's incredibly cheap. Medivacs (the giant heal-bus) are underpriced, IMO, (random platinum player).
I don't really see ventral sacs costing that much, seeing as you already have the units because you have to.
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And what happens when you lose said OVIs in a bad drop? Let's say 4 OVIs just cause that's a small number. That's 32 pop you just lost. You might be pop capped now and have to wait for more OVIs before you are free.
That means you need to create an excess of OVIs to drop just to allow for the drop to fail and you won't be screwed. That means you don't "already have the units" because if you just take what you have, you will screw yourself in the recovery of the failed drop. Terran or Toss don't suffer pop capping.
So now you are building OVIs for the express purpose of drops and they have no purpose outside of that. No, OVIs are the worst drop carrier because of their functionality. Medivacs, IMO, are the best. However, a good Warp Prism can really eff over and opponent who's not watching all the dark spots in their base!
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On August 21 2010 05:46 silencesc wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2010 10:35 SyyRaaaN wrote:[Disclaimer] This post might be interpreted as a balance post but my intention is really more a gameplay oriented post. And yeah, i play random. One of my main issues with zerg is the lack of something droppable. But that isn't entirely true. In fact, Zerg has loads of good droppable units for herass and base razing. A baneling drop would almost be as awesome as a lurkerdrop if not even greater. A 16 ling drop for fast base razing and herass, awesome. But the main problem is the accessibility. It all comes down to this upgrade which i think is heavily overpriced: The Ventral Sacs upgrade for 200 - 200. Thats alot of $, and not to mention that you probably will need the OL speed for 100 - 100 too. Another problem with this hefty price for the overlord drop upgrades is that because of the price it basically shares the same role as the Nydus Worm, at least with the pricing of sacs + OL speed. What i would love to see is the OL drop beeing used for smaller skirmishes while Nydus worms are used for big troop movements. What would happen if the Ventral Sacs upgrade were to be reduced to 50/50 (maybe, with build time increasement) - 200/0 - 100/100 - 75/75? I'm no numbers expert, but this upgrade needs to be looked at imho. Or, maybe going crazy-style and remove the ventral sacs entirely because of its similar role to Nydus worm and change it to an upgrade to the individual overlord for 50/50 (overseer style) accessible after Lair is finished with a 25 second build time, and let it hold 4-6-8 units. Again, im no numbers expert, just examples. My point is, if it's easier to access maybe this could lead to a broader zerg mid game strategy, the good old drop harasses. I think this really would broaden Zerg as the only unit they have for base harassing is basically the mutalisk. warp prisms cost 350 150 with the robo, and as you already have the ovies, that's incredibly cheap. Medivacs (the giant heal-bus) are underpriced, IMO, (random platinum player). I don't really see ventral sacs costing that much, seeing as you already have the units because you have to.
it's hardly fair to include the full robotics facility cost into the warp prism, sure if you got it just for a drop but really do you consider observers to cost 250/200?
edit: also liquipedia says
robo facility is 200/100 while prism is 200 so it would be 400/100 for a prism
unless liquipedia numbers are wrong
also I would pay 400/100 for ventral sacs if the research time was = warp prism construction time
on a map like LT ^_^
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i agree with OP; ventral sacs is way overpriced.
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On August 20 2010 11:12 Jermstuddog wrote:
I honestly don't have a problem with the 200/200.
My complaint is with the 130 research time.
If Protoss wants to get a Warp Prism, its 165 seconds from the time they put down the Cybernetics Core.
If Terran wants to get a Medivac, its 152 seconds from the time they put down their Factory.
If Zerg wants to get Ventral Sacs, its 210 seconds from the time they start their Lair.
Silver vs IdrA (where IdrA flips out telling him to apologize for playing that race) showed very well how stupid this is where 1 tank on a cliff can completely destroy a hatchery before Ventral Sacs is feasibly researched (IdrA had about 20 seconds left on his research - which he started blind btw - when his expo went down. If you pay attention to that, you can see why he rages so hard). There is literally nothing Z can do to stop it.
This or SOMETHING has to be done about cliff drops.
Trying to have TvZ balanced on a map without a cliff and then adding in a HUUUUUGE "I WIN"-button for Terrans on some maps and expecting it be balanced on both maps is just mindblowingly stupid.
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Price is fine, but 130time to research is way 2 long ;o Especially you need 2 upgrade for overlords in order for them to work as dropships.
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yea i think the problem lies in the research time, not the cost. zerg drop tech isn't particularly expensive. also cliff dropping is a blizzard problem specifically, according to my friend. he told me that in BW, custom, pro maps were made to have ramps leading to ledges to keep drops from being so effective. not sure why blizzard would choose to not implement that going into sc2.
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If Protoss wants to get a Warp Prism, its 165 seconds from the time they put down the Cybernetics Core.
If Terran wants to get a Medivac, its 152 seconds from the time they put down their Factory.
If Zerg wants to get Ventral Sacs, its 210 seconds from the time they start their Lair.
And even when u go straight to it... what can u drop compared to the Toss and Terran.
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Keep it same research time - Make it upgradeable from the upgrade building (Evo Chamber for non zerg players - costs 125 minerals) and make it one upgrade for 250/250 (personally i wouldnt care if it was 300/300 its that now anyway. Speed + transporting in one go(Even if its the same cost i dont care). You have to get both its standard in every zerg play - You need both. The problem is your hatch/lair/hive constucts too many things - queens tech upgrades - overlord bonuses - burrow.
I wouldnt even care if it was another building like the spawning pool or something but still. If you just expanded and are going to tier 2 chances are you will either be going infestors (Which require burrow to be of any use again another base upgrade) building a queen for your new expo or even 2 queens for it - or getting overlord speed . then sacs.
reserching it first requires you to hold off on other stuff which are probably more valuable at that stage of the game. and ever tried dropping with a non upgraded overlord? bahaha its funny.
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On August 21 2010 09:00 Scottymc wrote:
Keep it same research time - Make it upgradeable from the upgrade building (Evo Chamber for non zerg players - costs 125 minerals) and make it one upgrade for 250/250 (personally i wouldnt care if it was 300/300 its that now anyway. Speed + transporting in one go(Even if its the same cost i dont care). You have to get both its standard in every zerg play - You need both. The problem is your hatch/lair/hive constucts too many things - queens tech upgrades - overlord bonuses - burrow.
I wouldnt even care if it was another building like the spawning pool or something but still. If you just expanded and are going to tier 2 chances are you will either be going infestors (Which require burrow to be of any use again another base upgrade) building a queen for your new expo or even 2 queens for it - or getting overlord speed . then sacs.
reserching it first requires you to hold off on other stuff which are probably more valuable at that stage of the game. and ever tried dropping with a non upgraded overlord? bahaha its funny.
I really don't like T1 drops for the same reason I hate the Reaper.
If Z had T1 drops, mass marine/hellion and mass zealots would be required, and still not really make you safe from game-ending harassment (funny how much that phrase applies to Reapers).
The game is just healthier when people have options like blocking their ramp.
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On August 21 2010 09:17 Jermstuddog wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2010 09:00 Scottymc wrote:
Keep it same research time - Make it upgradeable from the upgrade building (Evo Chamber for non zerg players - costs 125 minerals) and make it one upgrade for 250/250 (personally i wouldnt care if it was 300/300 its that now anyway. Speed + transporting in one go(Even if its the same cost i dont care). You have to get both its standard in every zerg play - You need both. The problem is your hatch/lair/hive constucts too many things - queens tech upgrades - overlord bonuses - burrow.
I wouldnt even care if it was another building like the spawning pool or something but still. If you just expanded and are going to tier 2 chances are you will either be going infestors (Which require burrow to be of any use again another base upgrade) building a queen for your new expo or even 2 queens for it - or getting overlord speed . then sacs.
reserching it first requires you to hold off on other stuff which are probably more valuable at that stage of the game. and ever tried dropping with a non upgraded overlord? bahaha its funny. I really don't like T1 drops for the same reason I hate the Reaper. If Z had T1 drops, mass marine/hellion and mass zealots would be required, and still not really make you safe from game-ending harassment (funny how much that phrase applies to Reapers). The game is just healthier when people have options like blocking their ramp.
And when you say people you mean... terran?
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Protoss also blocks their ramp 99% of the time vs Z.
But if you want to narrow it down to T then yes, look at how much variety T has in TvZ.
How many options would T have if they couldn't block their ramp?
The problem with ZvT isn't the amount of T options, its the lack of Z options.
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On August 21 2010 09:17 Jermstuddog wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2010 09:00 Scottymc wrote:
Keep it same research time - Make it upgradeable from the upgrade building (Evo Chamber for non zerg players - costs 125 minerals) and make it one upgrade for 250/250 (personally i wouldnt care if it was 300/300 its that now anyway. Speed + transporting in one go(Even if its the same cost i dont care). You have to get both its standard in every zerg play - You need both. The problem is your hatch/lair/hive constucts too many things - queens tech upgrades - overlord bonuses - burrow.
I wouldnt even care if it was another building like the spawning pool or something but still. If you just expanded and are going to tier 2 chances are you will either be going infestors (Which require burrow to be of any use again another base upgrade) building a queen for your new expo or even 2 queens for it - or getting overlord speed . then sacs.
reserching it first requires you to hold off on other stuff which are probably more valuable at that stage of the game. and ever tried dropping with a non upgraded overlord? bahaha its funny. I really don't like T1 drops for the same reason I hate the Reaper. If Z had T1 drops, mass marine/hellion and mass zealots would be required, and still not really make you safe from game-ending harassment (funny how much that phrase applies to Reapers). The game is just healthier when people have options like blocking their ramp.
Even though I don't like Scottymcs suggestion either, I think it's not exactly fitting to call an 250/250 upgrade that has to be researched in the Evo Chamber "T1 drop" - technically that may be right, but considering that Z atm desperatly need their first 200 Gas for Lingspeed/Lair, such an expensive upgrade wouldn't come into play before midgame anyway. Some cheesy all-ins aside - but giving Z a possibility to threaten T/P who are now able to safely do whatever they want behind their walls doesn't seem to bad to me.
(However, I'd be happy seeing the cost and research time lowered by a bit - as it stands these upgrades are just to heavy on gas for a race that's very gas-dependent in the midgame. At the point in time when you are able to actually affort Ventral Sacks its uses have diminished greatly because of the easily accesible anti-air / base defense possibilities of the late game)
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On August 20 2010 11:00 Iggyhopper wrote:
Just reduce the gas cost.
Can anyone do some math for cost in terms of TvPvZ transports?
They are not comparable.
Z: provides supply
T: Flying Medic
P: Produces power field
Only P and T are similar enough to really compare, but the races are so different that the transports take different roles.
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On August 21 2010 04:03 ch4ppi wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2010 03:40 pwnasaurus wrote:
How about making Overseers automatically have the upgrade like they do with speed? That would probably fix all of this gripe about cliff drops and whatnot... That would make every transporter cost about 100 something + 100 Gas and holding 8 supply.
Thats like a medivac which can conterminate...but not heal. Sorry no.Anyway DTown pretty much nailed the problems. U NEED to get those upgrades or be even longer in an early game state, even ure in T2, because u dont have T2 units but Overlords that could carry them around. I'd suggest 50/50 Overlord Speed, since Blizzard statet that they just made more expensive to make the Zerg decide...well every Zerg will agree its not a decision its just more expensive. Additionaly I'd like to Ventral Sacs to be around 100/100 up to 150/150. Also the added research time could be lower or Speed T1 (then at the current cost).
I think I wasn't clear enough here. I didn't mean that ONLY Overseers could do drops - what I meant was the in the same way that Overseers automatically get the speed upgrade, they should also automatically get drop capabilities. That way you have a faster and cheaper way of having a dropship, which would help IMMENSELY with cliff drops and that sort of abuse.
At that point, leaving the upgrade the way there are isn't so bad, although maybe drop the research time by 20-30 seconds on ventral sacs.
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On August 21 2010 10:31 pwnasaurus wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2010 04:03 ch4ppi wrote:On August 21 2010 03:40 pwnasaurus wrote:
How about making Overseers automatically have the upgrade like they do with speed? That would probably fix all of this gripe about cliff drops and whatnot... That would make every transporter cost about 100 something + 100 Gas and holding 8 supply.
Thats like a medivac which can conterminate...but not heal. Sorry no.Anyway DTown pretty much nailed the problems. U NEED to get those upgrades or be even longer in an early game state, even ure in T2, because u dont have T2 units but Overlords that could carry them around. I'd suggest 50/50 Overlord Speed, since Blizzard statet that they just made more expensive to make the Zerg decide...well every Zerg will agree its not a decision its just more expensive. Additionaly I'd like to Ventral Sacs to be around 100/100 up to 150/150. Also the added research time could be lower or Speed T1 (then at the current cost). I think I wasn't clear enough here. I didn't mean that ONLY Overseers could do drops - what I meant was the in the same way that Overseers automatically get the speed upgrade, they should also automatically get drop capabilities. That way you have a faster and cheaper way of having a dropship, which would help IMMENSELY with cliff drops and that sort of abuse. At that point, leaving the upgrade the way there are isn't so bad, although maybe drop the research time by 20-30 seconds on ventral sacs.
This is not a bad idea. Gives zerg the ability to be even more reactionary, and no, I am not being spiteful when I say that.
While as a Zerg player I feel that something needs to be done about Lair bloat, I think everyone can agree that this would actually not be too game breaking. This way we do not have to add on -another- upgrade to lair, and we do not have to sit around and discuss how OP having to spend 500 gas immediately on lair tech instead of 600 is.
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On August 21 2010 10:53 Bair wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2010 10:31 pwnasaurus wrote:On August 21 2010 04:03 ch4ppi wrote:On August 21 2010 03:40 pwnasaurus wrote:
How about making Overseers automatically have the upgrade like they do with speed? That would probably fix all of this gripe about cliff drops and whatnot... That would make every transporter cost about 100 something + 100 Gas and holding 8 supply.
Thats like a medivac which can conterminate...but not heal. Sorry no.Anyway DTown pretty much nailed the problems. U NEED to get those upgrades or be even longer in an early game state, even ure in T2, because u dont have T2 units but Overlords that could carry them around. I'd suggest 50/50 Overlord Speed, since Blizzard statet that they just made more expensive to make the Zerg decide...well every Zerg will agree its not a decision its just more expensive. Additionaly I'd like to Ventral Sacs to be around 100/100 up to 150/150. Also the added research time could be lower or Speed T1 (then at the current cost). I think I wasn't clear enough here. I didn't mean that ONLY Overseers could do drops - what I meant was the in the same way that Overseers automatically get the speed upgrade, they should also automatically get drop capabilities. That way you have a faster and cheaper way of having a dropship, which would help IMMENSELY with cliff drops and that sort of abuse. At that point, leaving the upgrade the way there are isn't so bad, although maybe drop the research time by 20-30 seconds on ventral sacs. This is not a bad idea. Gives zerg the ability to be even more reactionary, and no, I am not being spiteful when I say that. While as a Zerg player I feel that something needs to be done about Lair bloat, I think everyone can agree that this would actually not be too game breaking. This way we do not have to add on -another- upgrade to lair, and we do not have to sit around and discuss how OP having to spend 500 gas immediately on lair tech instead of 600 is.
oh and it would give zerg atleast a chance to defend cliffdrops on maps with cliffs on natural like LT.
cuz rite now a thor can be put on the cliff way before you can have muttaslisks / drop ..unless you rush blindly to it on one base two gasses, in which case you are just dead anyways..
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I can see overlord drop tech being slightly more expensive than other races', since there is really no opportunity cost in choosing to make overlords, but I'd have to agree that 200/200 is a bit steep.
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gonna be honest here.. i get the impression that a lot of people who claim that "it's fine" do not play zerg much. it's not fine. as mentioned before, zerg is starving for gas once t2 is reached. we have no anti air at t1 (the only race) and we need hydras or mutas--both of which deplete our gas very quickly. it is NOT just about cost, however. time is also equally important. it takes forever to research both speed and drop capability. couple these things together: 1. it costs too much to upgrade both--especially since zerg t2 takes up so much gas (hydra or muta, which we need since we have no anti air at t1). 2. it takes so long to upgrade both upgrades when we cannot afford to waste time--zerg struggles hard in the beginning (arguably more so than any of the 3 races). so no, i can hardly see how this "is fine."
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EPT
