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[Disclaimer] This post might be interpreted as a balance post but my intention is really more a gameplay oriented post. And yeah, i play random.
One of my main issues with zerg is the lack of something droppable. But that isn't entirely true. In fact, Zerg has loads of good droppable units for herass and base razing. A baneling drop would almost be as awesome as a lurkerdrop if not even greater. A 16 ling drop for fast base razing and herass, awesome. But the main problem is the accessibility. It all comes down to this upgrade which i think is heavily overpriced:
![[image loading]](http://sc2pod.com/w/images/d/d0/Ventral_Sacs.png)
The Ventral Sacs upgrade for 200 - 200. Thats alot of $, and not to mention that you probably will need the OL speed for 100 - 100 too. Another problem with this hefty price for the overlord drop upgrades is that because of the price it basically shares the same role as the Nydus Worm, at least with the pricing of sacs + OL speed.
What i would love to see is the OL drop beeing used for smaller skirmishes while Nydus worms are used for big troop movements. What would happen if the Ventral Sacs upgrade were to be reduced to 50/50 (maybe, with build time increasement) - 200/0 - 100/100 - 75/75? I'm no numbers expert, but this upgrade needs to be looked at imho.
Or, maybe going crazy-style and remove the ventral sacs entirely because of its similar role to Nydus worm and change it to an upgrade to the individual overlord for 50/50 (overseer style) accessible after Lair is finished with a 25 second build time, and let it hold 4-6-8 units. Again, im no numbers expert, just examples. My point is, if it's easier to access maybe this could lead to a broader zerg mid game strategy, the good old drop harasses. I think this really would broaden Zerg as the only unit they have for base harassing is basically the mutalisk.
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Thing is, you pay a similar price for medivacs and prisms, but once you get ventral sacs, every overlord you own is now capable of dropping
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Not to mention the positioning. You'll probably have a "dropship" at nearly every angle without consciously planning ahead. Honestly, I think the price is fine.
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Prisms do not cost gas, 150 minerals only and Medivacs are Medics in addition to their drop function.
Drop it's cost to 200/100 and allow it being researched in Tier 1. If it is allowed to be researched in Tier 1, the Overlords will still be extremely slow but it'll allow Zerg to deal with cliff abuse in the early game.
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The price is definitely too high when there are maps like LT that pretty much require getting it just in case they drop your cliff.
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I think it is a great idea, in bw it would be OP but in sc2 it would match warp gate, warp prism, medivac, viking, colossus mobilty and could be a good counter to cliff drops instead of mutas, not to mention mule repairing and CC's that carry scvs.
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On August 20 2010 10:37 Disarray wrote:
Thing is, you pay a similar price for medivacs and prisms, but once you get ventral sacs, every overlord you own is now capable of dropping
True enough, but guess what Medivacs heal... and there already apart of your army Ventral sacs are a completely different assessment Prism also only cost 200 mins. This argument is not very good
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On August 20 2010 10:37 Disarray wrote:
Thing is, you pay a similar price for medivacs and prisms, but once you get ventral sacs, every overlord you own is now capable of dropping
This.
Toss and Terrans need to buy their shuttles individually, and replace them when they die (100/100 for medivacs, 200/0 for prisms). Granted, much like the overlord, they have secondary uses, which are usually their main uses, but nevertheless, 1 research allows all your overlords to act as shuttles and they are replaced for cheaper.
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Imho, the positioning isnt that dangerous and can be dealt with properly. If you position an slow overlord for a non OL-speed drop it is easily busted by any unit that can fire on air. Maybe it has unforseen consequenses in ZvZ but i don't think so. It also can be busted by buildings placed near your cliffs, the same way you deal with reapers, proxy pylons and so on.
The main point, though is that OL:s should be used for smaller skimishes rather than mass dropping which the nydus worm is capable of.
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On August 20 2010 10:39 Archaic wrote:
Not to mention the positioning. You'll probably have a "dropship" at nearly every angle without consciously planning ahead. Honestly, I think the price is fine.
Yeah? And then you're going to have to bring the overlord back to your units to pick them up
I don't see your point at all
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My thoughts:
1) The price is really steep, I still don't get why they upped OL speed.
It would help Zerg out in terms of scouting, so the Ol dies when it scouts but we get to see more.
It reduces the overall price of drop
The problem is I don't know what the issues were with a 50/50 Ol speed, maybe blizzard does want drop to be cheaper, but they didn't like the OL speed that early in the game.
2) I really don't like OL drop becoming on a Ol upgrade so you have to pay for it.
Why?
First off all, the big difference between nydus and drop is that drop can be used in combat, I really like going roach/ling/bling in the midgame, and the general idea for me is, I don't attack by running at them, I need to come from under them (burrow) or out of the air (drop).
Also with the nerfs to nydus I see the nydus less and less as an offensive tool, I see the nydus more as a tool to have instant troop movements across the map, to far expo's, to sneak troops away to flank them, etc
The only drop
While drop is more of an offensive tool. For various obvious reasons.
Overall: drop is fine, the only change I ever see to it is a change in the price, but that is all up to blizzard to decide that.
Zerg may have some issues, but we can't ask for to much, if it was up to some people we would have nydus'es on hatch that cost 100mins and drop on lair costing 50/50 + 50/50, that's all just a bit to much.
If zerg has issues OL drop isn't the first thing to look at imo.
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Personally, I'm fine with ventral sacs costing 200/200, I just wish the speed upgrade was back at 50/50.
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Maybe 150/150. Truthfully, Id rather see them rebalance nydus worms for defensive plays instead of offensive ones (built by drones for starters) and rebalance overlords for epic doom drops. But since no one will like this idea, they could start by making overlords less expensive before they can do anything (requiring 2 upgrades). Im a toss player BTW since every thread nowadays requires saying so.
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once you have ventral and speed, you'd have about oh i don't know 10 ovlords, and paying 200/200 for what for the other races is very costly each overlord, not including speed.
i suppose the more expensive thing is that, unless you have about 50+ overlords, you are putting a HUGE risk to your supply, it would take a LOT of time to build it back up. on 1, or 2 base
Overlords used to play such a diverse roll. for one, they were food, (not literally)they were a detector, they were a scout, (a role played better with speed boost) and a dropship (with two upgrades)
now, its whittled down to this.dropship, supply.Why you ask? because 2 of these roles were give to the overseer, which, with speed boost that affects it too, is MUCH quicker than a speed boosted overlord, which is no longer a detector, again detection was given to the overseer, making it an EVEN BETTER scout.
and overseers cost.. I think 100/50 (I may be wrong here)
so in many ways overlord was nerfed. Zerg can no longer be invincible to DT rushes, or wraiths.. but not all zerg players get AA.
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Just reduce the gas cost.
Can anyone do some math for cost in terms of TvPvZ transports?
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On August 20 2010 10:57 Thoreezhea wrote:
once you have ventral and speed, you'd have about oh i don't know 10 ovlords, and paying 200/200 for what for the other races is very costly each overlord, not including speed.
i suppose the more expensive thing is that, unless you have about 50+ overlords, you are putting a HUGE risk to your supply, it would take a LOT of time to build it back up. on 1, or 2 base
Are you implying that you would go for a 10 overlord doom drop off of 2 bases? I'm sorry but if you do, its pretty all-in if it fails either way, regardless of how long it would take to rebuild the 10 overlords from larvae.
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i like the ventral sacks cost. i mean cmon an unlimited supply of dropships for 200/200 - thats a pretty good deal but i do think that OL speed was good at 50-50
will help the scouting issue as well that them zergies keep complaining about
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Lowering the cost, time or tech needed for the OL upgrades would be great for zerg early game IMO
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Its hard to compare it to costs of a medivac. The medivac first off is a great healing unit. More importantly the cost of this upgrade might be too high because of the ridiculous amount of gas in multiple upgrades, buildings, and units that zerg has to buy into.
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The drop upgrade might be a little overpriced, but IMO the main problem is the research time. Even if you rush for lair and start drop as soon as you hit it, the Terran will already have sieged tank/thor on your cliff before the drop is even halfway researched. If they reduced research time to say 70 seconds (130 seconds is ridiculous), we'd actually see it out in time to respond to a drop if we aimed for it immediately upon lair (skipping mutas). This would also open up an opportunity for Zerg to punish Terrans for doing an ultra-greedy build (aka. 1-2 tanks sieged behind cliff while constructing their expansion safely), which is extremely common.
I personally think it's ridiculous that both Terran and Protoss can reach their drop tech at least a good minute before Zerg can even get theirs or even their first fliers up. This needs to be looked into if Blizzard keeps making maps with droppable cliffs like LT.
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I honestly don't have a problem with the 200/200.
My complaint is with the 130 research time.
If Protoss wants to get a Warp Prism, its 165 seconds from the time they put down the Cybernetics Core.
If Terran wants to get a Medivac, its 152 seconds from the time they put down their Factory.
If Zerg wants to get Ventral Sacs, its 210 seconds from the time they start their Lair.
Silver vs IdrA (where IdrA flips out telling him to apologize for playing that race) showed very well how stupid this is where 1 tank on a cliff can completely destroy a hatchery before Ventral Sacs is feasibly researched (IdrA had about 20 seconds left on his research - which he started blind btw - when his expo went down. If you pay attention to that, you can see why he rages so hard). There is literally nothing Z can do to stop it.
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300/300 for speed and sacs is too much. and th eresearch time for sacs is beyond fair.
yes you get all overlords = transports. Great.
medievacs heal, prisms can warp in units
by the time you even get 300 gas to get both, terran could have dropped your cliff and killed off your expo. In any real game, t/p are building units and being aggressive, thus z has to keep and army as well which costs minerals/gas. Sure, you only gotta spend 100 gas on ur dropship, but does blizzard really expect a zerg to save up 300gas for these upgrades? WHEN does a zerg ever have 300 gas after hitting t2? Bad enough we're stuck with units that cant hit air at t1, we have to get hydras to fill some sort of AA role and anti gateway/marauder roll. How can i get 300 gas if i need gas to stay alive? its just silly.
Id rather have a dropship like terran that costs 100 gas so i can take back a cliff rather than having to bank 300 and wait 10 years for them to finish before i can ATTEMPT to take back my cliff. The current state of the units mix for zerg early game and the importance of getting t2 tech and units out ASAP makes it ridiculous for such an expensive and time consuming upgrade.
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Imo Burrow, Ventral sacks and Ovy speed should all be 75/75. Ventral sacks should maybe be a bit more like 125/125.
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Cost for overlord transort: 650/400 for 1st overlord, but all overlord can transport so you can minus 100 from that since you already have them
Spawning Pool - 200
Lair 150/100
Sacs 200/200
Speed 100/100
Overlord 100
Cost for medivacs: 550/300 for 1st medivac
Barracks - 150
Factory - 150/100
Starport - 150/100
Medivac - 100/100
Cost for prism: 700/100 for 1st warp prism
Gateway- 150
Core - 150
Robo - 200/100
Prism - 200
Seems fine resource wise.
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its okay, the only good suggestion was to move it on tier1, since it cost a lot and overlords are slow, it wouldn't be any imba in it.
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realistically, its a cheap price for having 10-20-30 dropships (ovies)...
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200/200 isn't terrible, however I would like to see the build time reduced 10-20 seconds. Its a tad too slow.
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Guys, a Nydus Network costs 150/200, and single Nydus Worm costs 100/100. So that's only 50 minerals cheaper than researching lord speed and ventral sacks forever. Also consider, each new nydus worm takes another 100/100. If you build a second nydus worm, suddenly you've spent more gas.
What about time? The total combined time for a Nydus pair is 50 + unloading time. The times for speed and sacs are 50 and 130, respectively, but once you have a lair you can research these techs at lairs AND hatcheries. So you can research them at the same time. It's different than SC1 where you'd need two lairs to research simultaneously. So, the real time is 130. That's a good amount more than 50, sure, but unless you're rushing to Nydus, I think that 80 seconds is not that big of a difference.
Are they tactically equivalent? I would propose that drops are better. Anytime you build a nydus, you have to assume they're not close enough to kill it in the 20 second build time (or when only a couple units have come out). If you would feel safe for those 20 seconds, that's more than enough time for lords to drop their WHOLE army. The units will also come out faster with lords.
Why do people constantly spam that Nydus is the secret to the ever desired Zerg renaissance, but drops are completely unfeasible? The cost is similar, the deployment risk is similar... I don't get it. Maybe I'm just not a good enough player to understand.
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Build time is just as much worth mentioning as cost.
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On August 20 2010 11:37 ninjafetus wrote:
Guys, a Nydus Network costs 150/200, and single Nydus Worm costs 100/100. So that's only 50 minerals cheaper than researching lord speed and ventral sacks forever. Also consider, each new nydus worm takes another 100/100. If you build a second nydus worm, suddenly you've spent more gas.
What about time? The total combined time for a Nydus pair is 50 + unloading time. The times for speed and sacs are 50 and 130, respectively, but once you have a lair you can research these techs at lairs AND hatcheries. So you can research them at the same time. It's different than SC1 where you'd need two lairs to research simultaneously. So, the real time is 130. That's a good amount more than 50, sure, but unless you're rushing to Nydus, I think that 80 seconds is not that big of a difference.
Are they tactically equivalent? I would propose that drops are better. Anytime you build a nydus, you have to assume they're not close enough to kill it in the 20 second build time (or when only a couple units have come out). If you would feel safe for those 20 seconds, that's more than enough time for lords to drop their WHOLE army. The units will also come out faster with lords.
Why do people constantly spam that Nydus is the secret to the ever desired Zerg renaissance, but drops are completely unfeasible? The cost is similar, the deployment risk is similar... I don't get it. Maybe I'm just not a good enough player to understand.
Nydus costs way to much for it's spawn time too.
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While 300/300 is a pretty good buy to transport a whole army, I don't think I've ever really seen a game where zerg drops their whole army with overlords and wins (and nydus worms just suck).
This means that zerg is more of a harasser, but 300/300 is often too much of an investment for harassing.
Options: make overseers transport. I think this would be a pretty good idea. It will remove the ability for zerg to drop their entire army using 300/300 overlords, but then again they have nydus worms for that (which need to be buffed though because they suck).
This way zerg only pays a small bit of gas (or really nothing if they get an overseer anyway) for 1 transport, which I think is pretty fair? i don't know, maybe imbalanced baneling drops?
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On August 20 2010 11:26 Seide wrote:
Cost for overlord transort: 650/400 for 1st overlord, but all overlord can transport so you can minus 100 from that since you already have them
Spawning Pool - 200
Lair 150/100
Sacs 200/200
Speed 100/100
Overlord 100
Cost for medivacs: 550/300 for 1st medivac
Barracks - 150
Factory - 150/100
Starport - 150/100
Medivac - 100/100
Cost for prism: 700/100 for 1st warp prism
Gateway- 150
Core - 150
Robo - 200/100
Prism - 200
Seems fine resource wise.
I'd rather have the cost of the warp prism. Okay so I'm doing timings now. I think that might be the problem. All info pulled from sc2armory.com.
ZERG
Spawning Pool: 65
Lair: 80
Pneumatized Carapace: 60
Ventral Sacs: 130
Cost = 335 / 275
Now if you have two bases, you can essentially take off 60 seconds if you do both upgrades at the same time, but you would need 300 gas ready... lol.
TERRAN
Barracks: 60
Factory: 60
Starport: 50
Medivac: 42
Cost = 212
PROTOSS
Gateway: 65
Cybernetics Core: 50
Robotics Facility: 65
Warp Prism: 50
Cost = 230
Now, did you know that the warp gate research is 140 seconds? Yeah, ventral sacs are 130. That's awful.
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yeah build time is worth mentioning I just didnt feel like it, alse the terran/protoss is probably going to drop the minerals on the factories/starports anyway, while a zerg has to go 200/200 out of the way to get the ability, and 100/100 more to make it actually worth using.
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Yeah, other races have better time/cost to get to their first drop, but I was just comparing it to the other Zerg option. You know, using nydus ALSO requires you to have "300 gas ready... lol."
It's slower, but not all that much. And then you have it forever. I can absolutely see how it's more expensive and slower, but the amount is small enough that the comparison of nydus love to drop hate is baffling.
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You also have to remember that losing overlords you can lose supply which is pretty terrible unless you already have 200 (which rarely happens).
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Transportation Overlords take substantially longer to get, cost a lot of gas, and if killed, will cost you more than just minerals - supply too. Some could argue that the Transportation Overlords are producing supply in addition to being transports, but I don't see how flying all of your supply into the enemies base can ever be considered a plus.
Medivacs may cost more in the long run, however, they have an ability to heal, and can be repaired. They're efficient, and they get out quicker than any other transport, oh and double that is there is a reactor attached.
Although the most fragile of the bunch, Warp Prisms can not only transport units but also produce new units for the low-low cost of 100 minerals. You have virtually nothing to lose producing a Warp Prism. They are handy tools to have indeed. Also, if you are in a pinch, the Warp Prism can act as a pylon to power your buildings.
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My main problem is that you first have to tech to lair, which takes a good chunk of time, and then have to wait for 1 upgrade to finish, and then have to wait for one more to finish. I don't mind the price, I just mind how long it takes to get both upgrades. By the time you get all the upgrades, terran sieged your natural down with tanks 4 minutes ago.
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On August 20 2010 11:10 teamsolid wrote:
The drop upgrade might be a little overpriced, but IMO the main problem is the research time. Even if you rush for lair and start drop as soon as you hit it, the Terran will already have sieged tank/thor on your cliff before the drop is even halfway researched. If they reduced research time to say 70 seconds (130 seconds is ridiculous), we'd actually see it out in time to respond to a drop if we aimed for it immediately upon lair (skipping mutas). This would also open up an opportunity for Zerg to punish Terrans for doing an ultra-greedy build (aka. 1-2 tanks sieged behind cliff while constructing their expansion safely), which is extremely common.
I personally think it's ridiculous that both Terran and Protoss can reach their drop tech at least a good minute before Zerg can even get theirs or even their first fliers up. This needs to be looked into if Blizzard keeps making maps with droppable cliffs like LT.
Thisss.
And others, the time is a BIG difference from other races.
Also put into consideration is the fact that, Prisms can Warp In, Medivacs can Heal, Ovies do can spit creep sure but that's not nearly as impressive  . What's also stopping the opponent for killing said overlords? Leaving the Z player possibly supply blocked and the very least having him create more overlords.
And I don't think Overlords with speed are as fast as medivacs or prisms, not too certain on this statement though.
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On August 20 2010 12:08 RoarMan wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2010 11:10 teamsolid wrote:
The drop upgrade might be a little overpriced, but IMO the main problem is the research time. Even if you rush for lair and start drop as soon as you hit it, the Terran will already have sieged tank/thor on your cliff before the drop is even halfway researched. If they reduced research time to say 70 seconds (130 seconds is ridiculous), we'd actually see it out in time to respond to a drop if we aimed for it immediately upon lair (skipping mutas). This would also open up an opportunity for Zerg to punish Terrans for doing an ultra-greedy build (aka. 1-2 tanks sieged behind cliff while constructing their expansion safely), which is extremely common.
I personally think it's ridiculous that both Terran and Protoss can reach their drop tech at least a good minute before Zerg can even get theirs or even their first fliers up. This needs to be looked into if Blizzard keeps making maps with droppable cliffs like LT. Thisss. And others, the time is a BIG difference from other races. Also put into consideration is the fact that, Prisms can Warp In, Medivacs can Heal, Ovies do can spit creep sure but that's not nearly as impressive . What's also stopping the opponent for killing said overlords? Leaving the Z player possibly supply blocked and the very least having him create more overlords. And I don't think Overlords with speed are as fast as medivacs or prisms, not too certain on this statement though.
I agree on the timing issue, and cutting down research time by ~30 seconds would do a lot to help zergs cope with early tank drops.
The whole argument of "medivacs can heal..." "overlords can only spit creep" is bogus. If you are dropping, and you do not lose your OLs, you have free dropships (after the research obviously). Its true that if you lose them, you have to rebuild them to not get supply blocked, but at the same time if Terran loses his medivacs on a drop, his bio army is rendered a lot more useless (Medivacs are a lot more expensive to replace as well). If Toss loses his warp prisms, he can no longer resupply his army during his push (unless if he laid down a pylon at the scene of the battle). All 3 races have to make sacrifices when going for doom drops, and they all stand to lose something in the outcome. A bio army without medivacs can't very well push out successfully, and can be kited.
If you are planning on doom dropping past a line of turrets and losses are inevitable, get your new OLs started before waiting for the drop to end, and going "well that line of turrets killed 3 overlords, now I have to wait a minute before I can build more units". We've had to cope with this issue in BW as well.
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It's kinda funny how people are ignoring the fact that Zerg players are risking being majorly supplied blocked by doing drops.
Lower the cost? Sure...Tier 1? no...that's a little unfair imo.
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On August 20 2010 12:23 EliteAzn wrote:
It's kinda funny how people are ignoring the fact that Zerg players are risking being majorly supplied blocked by doing drops.
No, people have just come to terms with it and adapted, from playing BW for over a decade.
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On August 20 2010 12:23 EliteAzn wrote:
It's kinda funny how people are ignoring the fact that Zerg players are risking being majorly supplied blocked by doing drops.
To be honest, as a zerg player, thats not an issue.
If your dropping your whole army into a base, into a situation where overlords will likely die, then being supply blocked is the least of ur worries. Who the fuck sends 20 overlords full of units without making sure the coast is clear to get the drop done and pull the overlords back if need be? its not like they die in 2 hits.
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For some reason, i feel like they gave medivacs healing and warp prisms the power field just to even their roles out against overlords. In BW, the fact that overlords were always so available made them the most usable and efficient transport in the game.
I just feel like the units that drop are the issue. Dropping zerglings and hydras could demolish a protosses entire base in BW. I feel like for some reason its just not the same when i see it in SC2.
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this transport issue bugs me early mid game. i don't like how i basically can't break through a one basing terran or protoss wall-in unless i get mutas or get banelings, and going for this upgrade early, along with the speed upgrade, means i'm getting less of those valuable units that i need to defend against their drops and harass against my open base. i think the price and/or time should be reduced.
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On August 20 2010 12:30 [Agony]x90 wrote:
For some reason, i feel like they gave medivacs healing and warp prisms the power field just to even their roles out against overlords. In BW, the fact that overlords were always so available made them the most usable and efficient transport in the game.
I just feel like the units that drop are the issue. Dropping zerglings and hydras could demolish a protosses entire base in BW. I feel like for some reason its just not the same when i see it in SC2.
toss just warps in units to stall ur units while his main army is coming back whereas sc1 u had time until his army came.
terran just sits in his base or on his ramp in sc2 so your drops are only really effective later game when his army is protecting his 3rd. plus no sensor towers
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agree with someone above, speed needs to be 50/50 again
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On August 20 2010 12:28 tacrats wrote:
To be honest, as a zerg player, thats not an issue.
If your dropping your whole army into a base, into a situation where overlords will likely die, then being supply blocked is the least of ur worries. Who the fuck sends 20 overlords full of units without making sure the coast is clear to get the drop done and pull the overlords back if need be? its not like they die in 2 hits.
Yeah, if your dropping your whole army into a base...your state of mind is proof that you would never risk dropping just a few Zerg units into a base for a little harass. Not a chance. If you plan on dropping as Zerg, you're planning on taking everything out with it. And even then, you can lose supply. It doesn't have to be 20 overlords lost to hurt you, it could be 4 or 5 Overlords that set you back down to 160/170 food. If that drop didn't win, you need that 200/200 army ASAP. The time it takes to get more overlords and then finish up spawning that 30-40 other food is not okay. This kind of thing happens. Especially against Terran with all of its AA mightiness...and those god damn Vikings will follow Overlords to the edges of space.
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out of all the things to complain about for zerg, i think this is the least warranted. the cost of nydus was already mentioned earlier and that alone is argument enough in favor of the upgrade. of course, ovie speed is required but hey, that's only one mutalisk (or the cost of one nydus worm).
ovie can generate creep upon dropping as well, even with 3 minimum overlords, creep is spread so fast, your army gets an insane advantage.
i think really people are more concerned with the amount of effort loading up overlords versus the ez-mode of a nydus canal, and just hiding it with the excuse that the upgrade costs too much.
On August 20 2010 11:40 Saracen wrote:
Build time is just as much worth mentioning as cost.
this is very true. i think though, if you're getting ovie drop, you're doing it specifically in your mind, so you'll have the upgrade going as part of your build.
i mean seriously .. have any of you played bw?
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One zerg unit can't harass like a siege tank, thor, or collosus though.
And yes it's too expensive.
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I just wish there was an upgrade to fix bad OL drop AI. I feel like P and T dropships operate fine but OL's just scurry around confused.
Otherwise OL drop is fine imo.
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the thing is, for 200/200 you get almost infinite dropships.
it's very annoying that it takes so long to get drop tech though, because of how much earlier T and P can get drop and abuse cliffs. maybe if overseers could carry units by default... that way you could get faster drop to deal with cliff harass but you couldn't make a ton of them and do a massive early drop because it just costs too much gas to mass overseers that early.
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Cut 40 seconds off ventral sacs research and everything will be fine.
We know Zerg units are broken and weak in general. But rish free shit like cliff dropping a tank should be uncounterable.
Zergs only real harass option from dropping is banelings, which are quite sad to say the least. 4 banelings != 2 lurkers.
But it is still needed for early game defense, right now Zerg is just a punching bag for 15 minutes in ZvX, and that sucks.
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Reduce to 150/150 and call it a day.
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I like how people complain about prices, i'd love to see a replay of you with perfect macro, and the fact of the cost effectively being the soul reason you lost a game.
And if you made each overlord have to morph a drop function, that would probably cost more, in terms of making enough to make a doom drop usefull enough.
And lets not even go into the amount of apm/mechanics required for this. Zergs complain too much already about queen/creep tumor being too much of a toll.
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it costs too much (you need 2 upgrades: speed and drop capability) and it takes way too long (again, you need to research 2 upgrades). it's not a very viable option at the moment imo. especially since zerg has problems with survival at the moment.
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it costs too much (you need 2 upgrades: speed and drop capability) and it takes way too long (again, you need to research 2 upgrades). it's not a very viable option at the moment imo. especially since zerg has problems with survival at the moment.
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On August 20 2010 14:01 zomgtossrush wrote:
I like how people complain about prices, i'd love to see a replay of you with perfect macro, and the fact of the cost effectively being the soul reason you lost a game.
This.
I completely fail to imagine a scenario in which the cost of Ventral Sacs has lost a game for someone, it's fine.
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Speed price 100/100 is ok. because 50/50 was a no brainer - you just insta upgrade is after lair is finished. But to balance that cost increase they need to make drops 150/150.
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Why is it bad that ovie speed is a no-brainer but warpgates and concussive shells are fine as no-brainers?
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On August 20 2010 15:50 blacktoss wrote:
Why is it bad that ovie speed is a no-brainer but warpgates and concussive shells are fine as no-brainers?
Those upgrades should cost more too, agree.
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Ventral sacs is my favorite upgrade, I'm confused as to why people think it's not worth the buy.
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On August 20 2010 10:43 Moonling wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2010 10:37 Disarray wrote:
Thing is, you pay a similar price for medivacs and prisms, but once you get ventral sacs, every overlord you own is now capable of dropping True enough, but guess what Medivacs heal... and there already apart of your army Ventral sacs are a completely different assessment Prism also only cost 200 mins. This argument is not very good
I think its pretty valid, for 100 gas extra gas u get every overlord the ablity to drop, with the prism u can warpgate stuff in, but u can't warp immortals and only hold two in a prism, u have to keep building prism's to drop the army u already have built. you might want two or three which would be 600 minerals to 200 minerals/ 100 gas.
Its not a great argument, but its still valid. depending on the situation.
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I'd have to agree that timing is the issue, particularly vs Terran. They give up little to nothing going for dropships while it's a considerable investment for Zerg. I'm not sure the cost should be changed but I do think the gas cost of Zerg units and upgrades in general should be re-examined. Seems like they are often in a position where they have to make suboptimal unit choices because they are heavy on minerals and short on gas.
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I don't think our drop upgrade is to weak or too overpriced, I just think that medivacs are way overpowered.
I have no idea why they can drop right when they come out. Imo they should require an upgrade, this way it's just ridiculous.
Thank god not very many terrans use multitasked drops. They just try to drop like 3 marines 3 marauders or something into your main and fail unless the zerg makes a mistake. But 2 or even 3 drops at once are very very very hard to deal with.
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I've been trying to use Ventral Sacs more, as someone else pointed out we have 20+ overlords by lategame, and to turn every single one into a dropship takes 300/300....
On many maps it's a great way of getting in on terran/toss bases, you can also do fakes...ie float 10 overlords at the back with a few banelings in it as a diversion - they pull back an oversized response, and you bust the front.
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IMHO, the problem is too many zerg upgrades in general are withheld until Lair-tech. This completely locks zerg out of pursuing a streamlined build where they pursue certain upgrades early leading into other upgrades/tech later. They have very few unit and upgrade options early on, and then are flooded with options once they hit lair tech, which is the earliest point at which the zerg can start constructing a strategic build from those options.
Almost all Zerg problems are due to lack of options in the midgame, since so much tech/upgrades are withheld until lair. To try and add more substance to my argument, I will try and come up with a list.
Hatchery tech/upgrades consist of: lings, roaches, banelings, and ling speed.
But at Lair we unlock: Hydras, Mutas, Infestors, nydus, burrow, ovie speed, ovie transport, hydra range, roach speed, roach burrow, neural parasite, and the infestor energy upgrade.
Now I don't know the exact timing of when you can pop your lair, but let's just say the vast majority of zerg's options and strategies can't even start to be implemented until 4-5 minutes into the game. Meanwhile a Terran can either be 1/2 to 3/4 the way up their tech tree or have a decent sized bio army with concussive shells done and stim on the way, depending on which strategy they decided to pursue right from the beginning of the game. The problem isn't that zerg upgrades cost too much compared to the other races, the problem is that the other races have a substantial headstart over zerg in being able to start up strategically tailored tech/upgrades.This is the way I see it, although I may just be completely off the rocker. Do you guys see this as a problem or am I just a rambling fool?
edit: added forgotten lair options.
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they should reduce the reserach time. I just hate when P has 30+ probes with no units behind a wall and just puts some pylons to spot for nydus. even slow drop comes so friggin late it's absolutely no chance to make it work. Or LT cliff abusing
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On August 21 2010 03:29 DTown wrote:
IMHO, the problem is too many zerg upgrades in general are withheld until Lair-tech. This completely locks zerg out of pursuing a streamlined build where they pursue certain upgrades early leading into other upgrades/tech later. They have very few unit and upgrade options early on, and then are flooded with options once they hit lair tech, which is the earliest point at which the zerg can start constructing a strategic build from those options.
Almost all Zerg problems are due to lack of options in the midgame, since so much tech/upgrades are withheld until lair. To try and add more substance to my argument, I will try and come up with a list.
Hatchery tech/upgrades consist of: lings, roaches, banelings, and ling speed.
But at Lair we unlock: Hydras, Mutas, Infestors, burrow, ovie speed, ovie transport, hydra range, roach speed, roach burrow, neural parasite, and the infestor energy upgrade.
Now I don't know the exact timing of when you can pop your lair, but let's just say the vast majority of zerg's options and strategies can't even start to be implemented until 4-5 minutes into the game. Meanwhile a Terran can either be 1/2 to 3/4 the way up their tech tree or have a decent sized bio army with concussive shells done and stim on the way, depending on which strategy they decided to pursue right from the beginning of the game. This is the way I see it, although I may just be completely off the rocker. Do you guys see this as a problem or am I just a rambling fool?
You are right. Its impossible to get the upgrades you need without hurting your unit effectiveness as soon as you get lair. Chances are you have roaches already, gotta get the speed. Going to need hydras for AA plus they are a good all around unit, thats 100 gas to put it down. then now u have hydras gonna need that range upgrade or else they are kinda lame. Getting essential units thusfar with their upgrades cost 100+100+150=350. Thats a lot of gas. Especially when each hydra you put out is going to cost you 50 gas. Id say those are the common techs and upgrades as soon as lair hits. a spire is 200 gas to put up. infestor pit is another 100.
Sure every zerg would love to drop, every zerg would love that overlord speed right away, but its just way too expensive. On one base? good luck getting the required gas when all zerg units cost gas (not including ling).
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On August 21 2010 03:32 Geo.Rion wrote:
they should reduce the reserach time. I just hate when P has 30+ probes with no units behind a wall and just puts some pylons to spot for nydus. even slow drop comes so friggin late it's absolutely no chance to make it work. Or LT cliff abusing
I just think ovie speed should be T1. Is enabling a lumberingly slow unit that can't even attack to move a bit faster really that OP? and it would have good synergy with the T2 200 gas ovie transport upgrade. One could lead into the other.
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How about making Overseers automatically have the upgrade like they do with speed? That would probably fix all of this gripe about cliff drops and whatnot...
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If Overlord Speed was put back to 50/50 this wouldn't really be that much of an issue. 200/200 is reasonable since it applies to all your present and future overlords. But that + speed is a pretty big investment, mid-game.
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The main problem is the build time such that it's nearly impossible to have it when your opposition can reasonably take your cliff. I don't see anything wrong with the cost, and I think people talking about how 50/50 difference makes such a difference are way overestimating the effect it has and are just taking any opportunity to complain about Zerg, rather than the actual issues that hamper Zerg..
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i remember in the beta ol speed and i think ventral sacs cost on 50/50 which was just gravy but i dont think that the ventral sacs should be lowered, if you tech to lair just to get that then your doing a strat, you dont see zerg players getting that upgrade "just because" because they have another strat in mind like muta/ling or baneling bust or just mass roach hydra expo. zerg players should be happy that ol speed is also 100/100 which means that the 2nd you go lair and have enough cash to spare you should be getting that puppy asap. as for the build time i believe could be lowered by at least 30 seconds and give more risky zerg players a mid game roach attack with burrow or a couple banelings and just harass the hell out of the mineral line which could pay off if you get more then 6 workers which i guarantee you would
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On August 21 2010 03:40 pwnasaurus wrote:
How about making Overseers automatically have the upgrade like they do with speed? That would probably fix all of this gripe about cliff drops and whatnot...
That would make every transporter cost about 100 something + 100 Gas and holding 8 supply.
Thats like a medivac which can conterminate...but not heal. Sorry no.
Anyway DTown pretty much nailed the problems. U NEED to get those upgrades or be even longer in an early game state, even ure in T2, because u dont have T2 units but Overlords that could carry them around.
I'd suggest 50/50 Overlord Speed, since Blizzard statet that they just made more expensive to make the Zerg decide...well every Zerg will agree its not a decision its just more expensive.
Additionaly I'd like to Ventral Sacs to be around 100/100 up to 150/150.
Also the added research time could be lower or Speed T1 (then at the current cost).
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I like what someone said earlier about the price being fine but it should either research much faster (maybe double as fast) or it should just be tier 1. Either of these would probably also fix the imbalance issues in ZvT
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well it looks pricey but really what kills it is the ovie speed upgrade, making a useable drop 300 300, having it as 150 150 at hatchery tech could be pretty cool, you would need to position ur overlords ahead of time for elevator drops, could be some smart moves there. and then having overlord speed at 200 150 lair to make it even would also work. Dont want allin doom drops that early in the game ._. Itd be the new baneling bust, pool, gas, gas, speed, transport, bnest, elevatordrop yeeeeeeh
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On August 21 2010 04:03 ch4ppi wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2010 03:40 pwnasaurus wrote:
How about making Overseers automatically have the upgrade like they do with speed? That would probably fix all of this gripe about cliff drops and whatnot... That would make every transporter cost about 100 something + 100 Gas and holding 8 supply. Thats like a medivac which can conterminate...but not heal. Sorry no. Anyway DTown pretty much nailed the problems. U NEED to get those upgrades or be even longer in an early game state, even ure in T2, because u dont have T2 units but Overlords that could carry them around. I'd suggest 50/50 Overlord Speed, since Blizzard statet that they just made more expensive to make the Zerg decide...well every Zerg will agree its not a decision its just more expensive. Additionaly I'd like to Ventral Sacs to be around 100/100 up to 150/150. Also the added research time could be lower or Speed T1 (then at the current cost).
This.
Zerg speed, Roach speed, Hydra range are all REQUIRED upgrades as far as Zerg are concerned. I hate that they are all 100/100 but Terran get two 50/50 upgrades for their units.
These upgrades are not decisions, they are simply upgrades that are required for those units. Ovi speed is a requirement for Troop transport. That just shows how obvious Blizz is to Zerg because who in their right mind would think that a Zerg player would want Transports at base Ovi speed????
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I pretty much rule out dropping as zerg every game I play. 200 /200 is the reason.
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On August 20 2010 15:46 Alpina wrote:
Speed price 100/100 is ok. because 50/50 was a no brainer - you just insta upgrade is after lair is finished. But to balance that cost increase they need to make drops 150/150.
How is this any different from warpgates or concussive shells?
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Just to give cost/timing clarifications that were stated earlier in the thread:
Cost for overlord transport: 550/400, 335s/275s depending if you research speed+sacs at the same time
Spawning Pool - 200 65s
Lair 150/100 80s
Sacs 200/200 130s
Speed 100/100 60s
Cost for medivacs: 550/300 for 1st medivac, 212s
Barracks - 150 60s
Factory - 150/100 60s
Starport - 150/100 50s
Medivac - 100/100 42s
Cost for prism: 700/100 for 1st warp prism, 230s
Gateway- 150 65s
Core - 150 50s
Robo - 200/100 65s
Prism - 200 50s
Now talking 200/200 armies the overlord is fine as a transport, the problem comes with the window between getting t2 and getting something to deal with drops.
When a terran goes for Medivac they have a starport. They can choose to also build vikings and banshees from the same building so the 150/100 50s is investing in multiple possible directions. Also the Medivac is used for any mmm build and therefore allows for great synergy.
When a toss goes for warp prisms they go for a robo which also allows for obs+immortals. The 200/100 65s is invested in multiple directions (immortal push, warp-in reinforcements and detection/scouting). The warp prism doesnt directly support his army (aka Medivac) but allows for cross map reinforcements.
If a zerg goes for an ovie drop its 500/400 275s. Not only is this the most economically expensive its also 35s longer than protoss and 53s longer than terran. The tech allows for faster ovie movement but doesnt in any way contribute to the actually tech or army of the zerg. What the zerg gain from this is cheap transports and multiple transports immediately when the tech finishes.
Now factor in the immediate gas usage when entering t2. For a terran the first 100 gas goes for his starport allowing him to get medics for his marine ball, to get vikings for ovie harass or tank sighting, or to go for banshees. the second half of his gas investment (once reaching t2) is in the actual Medivac.
For protoss the t2 gas spending is 100 for the core. Then the gas sink comes in for the immortal/stalkers. Either way its stuff all gas.
For zerg its 100 for speed followed by 200 for sacs. Now by doing that you delay hydras, you delay mutas to the point where a harass is virtually useless. you delay bling speed and you delay roach speed. The 300 gas for your drop doesnt in any way help you stay alive in t2. by going for fast drop you open yourself up for any t2 timing push. Now thats not to say you cant harass and stay alive, but when you compare it with the spending of the other 2 races it shows how much time and gas (which is the main concern as soon as hive pops) is wasted on a line of tech that only gets you drops.
To fix this issue some synergy needs to be introduced so that the drop tech isnt a separate direction from what you need to do. Allowing drop or speed in t1 would alleviate the gas shortage slightly while still making it a difficult decision.
Even something like incorporating the cost of the speed or drop into a building that we build units from in t2/t1. eg ovie speed requires a roach warren OR lair. Maybe increase the cost of Lair and give speed automatically. Anything to allow the drop mechanic to synergise with a unit tech
TL;DR: Going drops as T or P is a natural progression from getting your t2 units, for zerg it is a separate line of tech that just stalls the roll out of t2 upgrades/t2 units. To alleviate this incorporate one of the techs into a t1/t2 structure to allow for unit tech at the same time
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now I'm no big-city-lawyer but it seems to me you could make it 300/200 gas with lower research time and have greater success than lowering cost and increasing research time
imo terran dropships serve such diverse functions that you're likely to have them for purpouses outside of purely dropping anyway, and toss dropships cost no gas (also serve as pylon power) so that makes OLs less 'imba' in terms of availability (compared to BW)
the current problem I have with ventral sacs is research time, even if you anticipate a situation where you will need drops (LT) you often find yourself waiting for the research timer, and obviously it should be an investment of some kind so I think raising cost is only fair (numbers are just a suggestion I have no idea what numbers would be balanced)
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On August 20 2010 10:35 SyyRaaaN wrote:[Disclaimer] This post might be interpreted as a balance post but my intention is really more a gameplay oriented post. And yeah, i play random. One of my main issues with zerg is the lack of something droppable. But that isn't entirely true. In fact, Zerg has loads of good droppable units for herass and base razing. A baneling drop would almost be as awesome as a lurkerdrop if not even greater. A 16 ling drop for fast base razing and herass, awesome. But the main problem is the accessibility. It all comes down to this upgrade which i think is heavily overpriced: The Ventral Sacs upgrade for 200 - 200. Thats alot of $, and not to mention that you probably will need the OL speed for 100 - 100 too. Another problem with this hefty price for the overlord drop upgrades is that because of the price it basically shares the same role as the Nydus Worm, at least with the pricing of sacs + OL speed. What i would love to see is the OL drop beeing used for smaller skirmishes while Nydus worms are used for big troop movements. What would happen if the Ventral Sacs upgrade were to be reduced to 50/50 (maybe, with build time increasement) - 200/0 - 100/100 - 75/75? I'm no numbers expert, but this upgrade needs to be looked at imho. Or, maybe going crazy-style and remove the ventral sacs entirely because of its similar role to Nydus worm and change it to an upgrade to the individual overlord for 50/50 (overseer style) accessible after Lair is finished with a 25 second build time, and let it hold 4-6-8 units. Again, im no numbers expert, just examples. My point is, if it's easier to access maybe this could lead to a broader zerg mid game strategy, the good old drop harasses. I think this really would broaden Zerg as the only unit they have for base harassing is basically the mutalisk.
warp prisms cost 350 150 with the robo, and as you already have the ovies, that's incredibly cheap. Medivacs (the giant heal-bus) are underpriced, IMO, (random platinum player).
I don't really see ventral sacs costing that much, seeing as you already have the units because you have to.
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And what happens when you lose said OVIs in a bad drop? Let's say 4 OVIs just cause that's a small number. That's 32 pop you just lost. You might be pop capped now and have to wait for more OVIs before you are free.
That means you need to create an excess of OVIs to drop just to allow for the drop to fail and you won't be screwed. That means you don't "already have the units" because if you just take what you have, you will screw yourself in the recovery of the failed drop. Terran or Toss don't suffer pop capping.
So now you are building OVIs for the express purpose of drops and they have no purpose outside of that. No, OVIs are the worst drop carrier because of their functionality. Medivacs, IMO, are the best. However, a good Warp Prism can really eff over and opponent who's not watching all the dark spots in their base!
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On August 21 2010 05:46 silencesc wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2010 10:35 SyyRaaaN wrote:[Disclaimer] This post might be interpreted as a balance post but my intention is really more a gameplay oriented post. And yeah, i play random. One of my main issues with zerg is the lack of something droppable. But that isn't entirely true. In fact, Zerg has loads of good droppable units for herass and base razing. A baneling drop would almost be as awesome as a lurkerdrop if not even greater. A 16 ling drop for fast base razing and herass, awesome. But the main problem is the accessibility. It all comes down to this upgrade which i think is heavily overpriced: The Ventral Sacs upgrade for 200 - 200. Thats alot of $, and not to mention that you probably will need the OL speed for 100 - 100 too. Another problem with this hefty price for the overlord drop upgrades is that because of the price it basically shares the same role as the Nydus Worm, at least with the pricing of sacs + OL speed. What i would love to see is the OL drop beeing used for smaller skirmishes while Nydus worms are used for big troop movements. What would happen if the Ventral Sacs upgrade were to be reduced to 50/50 (maybe, with build time increasement) - 200/0 - 100/100 - 75/75? I'm no numbers expert, but this upgrade needs to be looked at imho. Or, maybe going crazy-style and remove the ventral sacs entirely because of its similar role to Nydus worm and change it to an upgrade to the individual overlord for 50/50 (overseer style) accessible after Lair is finished with a 25 second build time, and let it hold 4-6-8 units. Again, im no numbers expert, just examples. My point is, if it's easier to access maybe this could lead to a broader zerg mid game strategy, the good old drop harasses. I think this really would broaden Zerg as the only unit they have for base harassing is basically the mutalisk. warp prisms cost 350 150 with the robo, and as you already have the ovies, that's incredibly cheap. Medivacs (the giant heal-bus) are underpriced, IMO, (random platinum player). I don't really see ventral sacs costing that much, seeing as you already have the units because you have to.
it's hardly fair to include the full robotics facility cost into the warp prism, sure if you got it just for a drop but really do you consider observers to cost 250/200?
edit: also liquipedia says
robo facility is 200/100 while prism is 200 so it would be 400/100 for a prism
unless liquipedia numbers are wrong
also I would pay 400/100 for ventral sacs if the research time was = warp prism construction time
on a map like LT ^_^
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i agree with OP; ventral sacs is way overpriced.
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On August 20 2010 11:12 Jermstuddog wrote:
I honestly don't have a problem with the 200/200.
My complaint is with the 130 research time.
If Protoss wants to get a Warp Prism, its 165 seconds from the time they put down the Cybernetics Core.
If Terran wants to get a Medivac, its 152 seconds from the time they put down their Factory.
If Zerg wants to get Ventral Sacs, its 210 seconds from the time they start their Lair.
Silver vs IdrA (where IdrA flips out telling him to apologize for playing that race) showed very well how stupid this is where 1 tank on a cliff can completely destroy a hatchery before Ventral Sacs is feasibly researched (IdrA had about 20 seconds left on his research - which he started blind btw - when his expo went down. If you pay attention to that, you can see why he rages so hard). There is literally nothing Z can do to stop it.
This or SOMETHING has to be done about cliff drops.
Trying to have TvZ balanced on a map without a cliff and then adding in a HUUUUUGE "I WIN"-button for Terrans on some maps and expecting it be balanced on both maps is just mindblowingly stupid.
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Price is fine, but 130time to research is way 2 long ;o Especially you need 2 upgrade for overlords in order for them to work as dropships.
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yea i think the problem lies in the research time, not the cost. zerg drop tech isn't particularly expensive. also cliff dropping is a blizzard problem specifically, according to my friend. he told me that in BW, custom, pro maps were made to have ramps leading to ledges to keep drops from being so effective. not sure why blizzard would choose to not implement that going into sc2.
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If Protoss wants to get a Warp Prism, its 165 seconds from the time they put down the Cybernetics Core.
If Terran wants to get a Medivac, its 152 seconds from the time they put down their Factory.
If Zerg wants to get Ventral Sacs, its 210 seconds from the time they start their Lair.
And even when u go straight to it... what can u drop compared to the Toss and Terran.
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Keep it same research time - Make it upgradeable from the upgrade building (Evo Chamber for non zerg players - costs 125 minerals) and make it one upgrade for 250/250 (personally i wouldnt care if it was 300/300 its that now anyway. Speed + transporting in one go(Even if its the same cost i dont care). You have to get both its standard in every zerg play - You need both. The problem is your hatch/lair/hive constucts too many things - queens tech upgrades - overlord bonuses - burrow.
I wouldnt even care if it was another building like the spawning pool or something but still. If you just expanded and are going to tier 2 chances are you will either be going infestors (Which require burrow to be of any use again another base upgrade) building a queen for your new expo or even 2 queens for it - or getting overlord speed . then sacs.
reserching it first requires you to hold off on other stuff which are probably more valuable at that stage of the game. and ever tried dropping with a non upgraded overlord? bahaha its funny.
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On August 21 2010 09:00 Scottymc wrote:
Keep it same research time - Make it upgradeable from the upgrade building (Evo Chamber for non zerg players - costs 125 minerals) and make it one upgrade for 250/250 (personally i wouldnt care if it was 300/300 its that now anyway. Speed + transporting in one go(Even if its the same cost i dont care). You have to get both its standard in every zerg play - You need both. The problem is your hatch/lair/hive constucts too many things - queens tech upgrades - overlord bonuses - burrow.
I wouldnt even care if it was another building like the spawning pool or something but still. If you just expanded and are going to tier 2 chances are you will either be going infestors (Which require burrow to be of any use again another base upgrade) building a queen for your new expo or even 2 queens for it - or getting overlord speed . then sacs.
reserching it first requires you to hold off on other stuff which are probably more valuable at that stage of the game. and ever tried dropping with a non upgraded overlord? bahaha its funny.
I really don't like T1 drops for the same reason I hate the Reaper.
If Z had T1 drops, mass marine/hellion and mass zealots would be required, and still not really make you safe from game-ending harassment (funny how much that phrase applies to Reapers).
The game is just healthier when people have options like blocking their ramp.
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On August 21 2010 09:17 Jermstuddog wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2010 09:00 Scottymc wrote:
Keep it same research time - Make it upgradeable from the upgrade building (Evo Chamber for non zerg players - costs 125 minerals) and make it one upgrade for 250/250 (personally i wouldnt care if it was 300/300 its that now anyway. Speed + transporting in one go(Even if its the same cost i dont care). You have to get both its standard in every zerg play - You need both. The problem is your hatch/lair/hive constucts too many things - queens tech upgrades - overlord bonuses - burrow.
I wouldnt even care if it was another building like the spawning pool or something but still. If you just expanded and are going to tier 2 chances are you will either be going infestors (Which require burrow to be of any use again another base upgrade) building a queen for your new expo or even 2 queens for it - or getting overlord speed . then sacs.
reserching it first requires you to hold off on other stuff which are probably more valuable at that stage of the game. and ever tried dropping with a non upgraded overlord? bahaha its funny. I really don't like T1 drops for the same reason I hate the Reaper. If Z had T1 drops, mass marine/hellion and mass zealots would be required, and still not really make you safe from game-ending harassment (funny how much that phrase applies to Reapers). The game is just healthier when people have options like blocking their ramp.
And when you say people you mean... terran?
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Protoss also blocks their ramp 99% of the time vs Z.
But if you want to narrow it down to T then yes, look at how much variety T has in TvZ.
How many options would T have if they couldn't block their ramp?
The problem with ZvT isn't the amount of T options, its the lack of Z options.
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On August 21 2010 09:17 Jermstuddog wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2010 09:00 Scottymc wrote:
Keep it same research time - Make it upgradeable from the upgrade building (Evo Chamber for non zerg players - costs 125 minerals) and make it one upgrade for 250/250 (personally i wouldnt care if it was 300/300 its that now anyway. Speed + transporting in one go(Even if its the same cost i dont care). You have to get both its standard in every zerg play - You need both. The problem is your hatch/lair/hive constucts too many things - queens tech upgrades - overlord bonuses - burrow.
I wouldnt even care if it was another building like the spawning pool or something but still. If you just expanded and are going to tier 2 chances are you will either be going infestors (Which require burrow to be of any use again another base upgrade) building a queen for your new expo or even 2 queens for it - or getting overlord speed . then sacs.
reserching it first requires you to hold off on other stuff which are probably more valuable at that stage of the game. and ever tried dropping with a non upgraded overlord? bahaha its funny. I really don't like T1 drops for the same reason I hate the Reaper. If Z had T1 drops, mass marine/hellion and mass zealots would be required, and still not really make you safe from game-ending harassment (funny how much that phrase applies to Reapers). The game is just healthier when people have options like blocking their ramp.
Even though I don't like Scottymcs suggestion either, I think it's not exactly fitting to call an 250/250 upgrade that has to be researched in the Evo Chamber "T1 drop" - technically that may be right, but considering that Z atm desperatly need their first 200 Gas for Lingspeed/Lair, such an expensive upgrade wouldn't come into play before midgame anyway. Some cheesy all-ins aside - but giving Z a possibility to threaten T/P who are now able to safely do whatever they want behind their walls doesn't seem to bad to me.
(However, I'd be happy seeing the cost and research time lowered by a bit - as it stands these upgrades are just to heavy on gas for a race that's very gas-dependent in the midgame. At the point in time when you are able to actually affort Ventral Sacks its uses have diminished greatly because of the easily accesible anti-air / base defense possibilities of the late game)
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On August 20 2010 11:00 Iggyhopper wrote:
Just reduce the gas cost.
Can anyone do some math for cost in terms of TvPvZ transports?
They are not comparable.
Z: provides supply
T: Flying Medic
P: Produces power field
Only P and T are similar enough to really compare, but the races are so different that the transports take different roles.
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On August 21 2010 04:03 ch4ppi wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2010 03:40 pwnasaurus wrote:
How about making Overseers automatically have the upgrade like they do with speed? That would probably fix all of this gripe about cliff drops and whatnot... That would make every transporter cost about 100 something + 100 Gas and holding 8 supply.
Thats like a medivac which can conterminate...but not heal. Sorry no.Anyway DTown pretty much nailed the problems. U NEED to get those upgrades or be even longer in an early game state, even ure in T2, because u dont have T2 units but Overlords that could carry them around. I'd suggest 50/50 Overlord Speed, since Blizzard statet that they just made more expensive to make the Zerg decide...well every Zerg will agree its not a decision its just more expensive. Additionaly I'd like to Ventral Sacs to be around 100/100 up to 150/150. Also the added research time could be lower or Speed T1 (then at the current cost).
I think I wasn't clear enough here. I didn't mean that ONLY Overseers could do drops - what I meant was the in the same way that Overseers automatically get the speed upgrade, they should also automatically get drop capabilities. That way you have a faster and cheaper way of having a dropship, which would help IMMENSELY with cliff drops and that sort of abuse.
At that point, leaving the upgrade the way there are isn't so bad, although maybe drop the research time by 20-30 seconds on ventral sacs.
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On August 21 2010 10:31 pwnasaurus wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2010 04:03 ch4ppi wrote:On August 21 2010 03:40 pwnasaurus wrote:
How about making Overseers automatically have the upgrade like they do with speed? That would probably fix all of this gripe about cliff drops and whatnot... That would make every transporter cost about 100 something + 100 Gas and holding 8 supply.
Thats like a medivac which can conterminate...but not heal. Sorry no.Anyway DTown pretty much nailed the problems. U NEED to get those upgrades or be even longer in an early game state, even ure in T2, because u dont have T2 units but Overlords that could carry them around. I'd suggest 50/50 Overlord Speed, since Blizzard statet that they just made more expensive to make the Zerg decide...well every Zerg will agree its not a decision its just more expensive. Additionaly I'd like to Ventral Sacs to be around 100/100 up to 150/150. Also the added research time could be lower or Speed T1 (then at the current cost). I think I wasn't clear enough here. I didn't mean that ONLY Overseers could do drops - what I meant was the in the same way that Overseers automatically get the speed upgrade, they should also automatically get drop capabilities. That way you have a faster and cheaper way of having a dropship, which would help IMMENSELY with cliff drops and that sort of abuse. At that point, leaving the upgrade the way there are isn't so bad, although maybe drop the research time by 20-30 seconds on ventral sacs.
This is not a bad idea. Gives zerg the ability to be even more reactionary, and no, I am not being spiteful when I say that.
While as a Zerg player I feel that something needs to be done about Lair bloat, I think everyone can agree that this would actually not be too game breaking. This way we do not have to add on -another- upgrade to lair, and we do not have to sit around and discuss how OP having to spend 500 gas immediately on lair tech instead of 600 is.
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On August 21 2010 10:53 Bair wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2010 10:31 pwnasaurus wrote:On August 21 2010 04:03 ch4ppi wrote:On August 21 2010 03:40 pwnasaurus wrote:
How about making Overseers automatically have the upgrade like they do with speed? That would probably fix all of this gripe about cliff drops and whatnot... That would make every transporter cost about 100 something + 100 Gas and holding 8 supply.
Thats like a medivac which can conterminate...but not heal. Sorry no.Anyway DTown pretty much nailed the problems. U NEED to get those upgrades or be even longer in an early game state, even ure in T2, because u dont have T2 units but Overlords that could carry them around. I'd suggest 50/50 Overlord Speed, since Blizzard statet that they just made more expensive to make the Zerg decide...well every Zerg will agree its not a decision its just more expensive. Additionaly I'd like to Ventral Sacs to be around 100/100 up to 150/150. Also the added research time could be lower or Speed T1 (then at the current cost). I think I wasn't clear enough here. I didn't mean that ONLY Overseers could do drops - what I meant was the in the same way that Overseers automatically get the speed upgrade, they should also automatically get drop capabilities. That way you have a faster and cheaper way of having a dropship, which would help IMMENSELY with cliff drops and that sort of abuse. At that point, leaving the upgrade the way there are isn't so bad, although maybe drop the research time by 20-30 seconds on ventral sacs. This is not a bad idea. Gives zerg the ability to be even more reactionary, and no, I am not being spiteful when I say that. While as a Zerg player I feel that something needs to be done about Lair bloat, I think everyone can agree that this would actually not be too game breaking. This way we do not have to add on -another- upgrade to lair, and we do not have to sit around and discuss how OP having to spend 500 gas immediately on lair tech instead of 600 is.
oh and it would give zerg atleast a chance to defend cliffdrops on maps with cliffs on natural like LT.
cuz rite now a thor can be put on the cliff way before you can have muttaslisks / drop ..unless you rush blindly to it on one base two gasses, in which case you are just dead anyways..
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I can see overlord drop tech being slightly more expensive than other races', since there is really no opportunity cost in choosing to make overlords, but I'd have to agree that 200/200 is a bit steep.
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gonna be honest here.. i get the impression that a lot of people who claim that "it's fine" do not play zerg much. it's not fine. as mentioned before, zerg is starving for gas once t2 is reached. we have no anti air at t1 (the only race) and we need hydras or mutas--both of which deplete our gas very quickly. it is NOT just about cost, however. time is also equally important. it takes forever to research both speed and drop capability. couple these things together: 1. it costs too much to upgrade both--especially since zerg t2 takes up so much gas (hydra or muta, which we need since we have no anti air at t1). 2. it takes so long to upgrade both upgrades when we cannot afford to waste time--zerg struggles hard in the beginning (arguably more so than any of the 3 races). so no, i can hardly see how this "is fine."
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Also, you can't doom drop like you did in SC1. If you go doom drop and the opponent doesn't come back to defend and goes for base trade, you are basically doomed. But I think zergs should use more ovie harass cuz blings could do a lot of damage to workers
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On August 21 2010 22:49 DarkSeerTurbo wrote:
gonna be honest here.. i get the impression that a lot of people who claim that "it's fine" do not play zerg much. it's not fine. as mentioned before, zerg is starving for gas once t2 is reached. we have no anti air at t1 (the only race) and we need hydras or mutas--both of which deplete our gas very quickly. it is NOT just about cost, however. time is also equally important. it takes forever to research both speed and drop capability. couple these things together: 1. it costs too much to upgrade both--especially since zerg t2 takes up so much gas (hydra or muta, which we need since we have no anti air at t1). 2. it takes so long to upgrade both upgrades when we cannot afford to waste time--zerg struggles hard in the beginning (arguably more so than any of the 3 races). so no, i can hardly see how this "is fine."
Queens are not anti-air...?
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On August 21 2010 23:12 Antisocialmunky wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2010 22:49 DarkSeerTurbo wrote:
gonna be honest here.. i get the impression that a lot of people who claim that "it's fine" do not play zerg much. it's not fine. as mentioned before, zerg is starving for gas once t2 is reached. we have no anti air at t1 (the only race) and we need hydras or mutas--both of which deplete our gas very quickly. it is NOT just about cost, however. time is also equally important. it takes forever to research both speed and drop capability. couple these things together: 1. it costs too much to upgrade both--especially since zerg t2 takes up so much gas (hydra or muta, which we need since we have no anti air at t1). 2. it takes so long to upgrade both upgrades when we cannot afford to waste time--zerg struggles hard in the beginning (arguably more so than any of the 3 races). so no, i can hardly see how this "is fine." Queens are not anti-air...?
While I personally <3 Queens and always get 3-4 even on 1 base, they just don't have the oomph of stalkers or marines.
Don't get me wrong, they're great for light defending or in addition to mutas or hydras, but I would say no, Queens are not sufficient anti-air against anything but mutas really once you hit mid-game.
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The only time queens can really be reliable AA is when you have had 4-6+ for long enough for them to all have at least 100 energy. Transfuse can really keep them alive for a long time, but the cost of getting that amount of queens, with enough energy, early enough to comfortably defend Air or an air+ground push is just not viable.
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I actually like the idea of increasing research time while decreasing the costs to 50/50. Warp gate was given to protoss just for free. Terrans are doing fine already. Why not give zergs cheap mechanic to work with.
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I'd also like to note how funny it is that so many Zerg units are most effective at countering other Zerg units.
Due to lack of any decent base defenses, lings are a huge issue all game long in ZvZ.
Blings are AWESOME against Zerglings, but pretty lackluster against anything else in the game with the notable exception of Marines, they're not even that great vs Zealots because you tend not to hit enough of them to make it worth it (who doesn't love throwing away 100+ gas to kill 3 zealots?)
Roaches can literally walk through piles of lings and mutas (I think I once killed over 60 lings with 12 roaches while 10 or so Mutalisks were pounding on me from above, my numbers might be off, but not by much), especially once you start getting +1 or +2 carapace, but just about anything from T or P rips right through them.
Queens completely destroy Mutalisks. Once you factor in transfuse, 3 or 4 of them can kill 10+ mutalisks with 0 casualties, but against banshees, VRs, phoenixes, or even vikings in decent numbers, they just seem to get decimated.
I see more Corruptors in ZvZ than any other MU lately, (that base 2 armor is just too good vs mutas)
/cute observation
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On August 21 2010 23:35 Cheerio wrote:
I actually like the idea of increasing research time while decreasing the costs to 50/50. Warp gate was given to protoss just for free. Terrans are doing fine already. Why not give zergs cheap mechanic to work with.
wat?
Reserach time is the problem. So you want to give that tank sitting on the cliff pounding the zerg expo an extra X seconds of free reign? No thx.
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EPT
