EPTZerg - Ventral Sacs - Page 4
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Smurfz
United States327 Posts
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Sly
Canada95 Posts
On August 20 2010 10:43 Moonling wrote: True enough, but guess what Medivacs heal... and there already apart of your army Ventral sacs are a completely different assessment Prism also only cost 200 mins. This argument is not very good I think its pretty valid, for 100 gas extra gas u get every overlord the ablity to drop, with the prism u can warpgate stuff in, but u can't warp immortals and only hold two in a prism, u have to keep building prism's to drop the army u already have built. you might want two or three which would be 600 minerals to 200 minerals/ 100 gas. Its not a great argument, but its still valid. depending on the situation. | ||
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Grond
599 Posts
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heishe
Germany2284 Posts
I have no idea why they can drop right when they come out. Imo they should require an upgrade, this way it's just ridiculous. Thank god not very many terrans use multitasked drops. They just try to drop like 3 marines 3 marauders or something into your main and fail unless the zerg makes a mistake. But 2 or even 3 drops at once are very very very hard to deal with. | ||
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Gryffes
United Kingdom763 Posts
On many maps it's a great way of getting in on terran/toss bases, you can also do fakes...ie float 10 overlords at the back with a few banelings in it as a diversion - they pull back an oversized response, and you bust the front. | ||
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DTown
United States428 Posts
Almost all Zerg problems are due to lack of options in the midgame, since so much tech/upgrades are withheld until lair. To try and add more substance to my argument, I will try and come up with a list. Hatchery tech/upgrades consist of: lings, roaches, banelings, and ling speed. But at Lair we unlock: Hydras, Mutas, Infestors, nydus, burrow, ovie speed, ovie transport, hydra range, roach speed, roach burrow, neural parasite, and the infestor energy upgrade. Now I don't know the exact timing of when you can pop your lair, but let's just say the vast majority of zerg's options and strategies can't even start to be implemented until 4-5 minutes into the game. Meanwhile a Terran can either be 1/2 to 3/4 the way up their tech tree or have a decent sized bio army with concussive shells done and stim on the way, depending on which strategy they decided to pursue right from the beginning of the game. The problem isn't that zerg upgrades cost too much compared to the other races, the problem is that the other races have a substantial headstart over zerg in being able to start up strategically tailored tech/upgrades.This is the way I see it, although I may just be completely off the rocker. Do you guys see this as a problem or am I just a rambling fool? edit: added forgotten lair options. | ||
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Geo.Rion
7377 Posts
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tacrats
476 Posts
On August 21 2010 03:29 DTown wrote: IMHO, the problem is too many zerg upgrades in general are withheld until Lair-tech. This completely locks zerg out of pursuing a streamlined build where they pursue certain upgrades early leading into other upgrades/tech later. They have very few unit and upgrade options early on, and then are flooded with options once they hit lair tech, which is the earliest point at which the zerg can start constructing a strategic build from those options. Almost all Zerg problems are due to lack of options in the midgame, since so much tech/upgrades are withheld until lair. To try and add more substance to my argument, I will try and come up with a list. Hatchery tech/upgrades consist of: lings, roaches, banelings, and ling speed. But at Lair we unlock: Hydras, Mutas, Infestors, burrow, ovie speed, ovie transport, hydra range, roach speed, roach burrow, neural parasite, and the infestor energy upgrade. Now I don't know the exact timing of when you can pop your lair, but let's just say the vast majority of zerg's options and strategies can't even start to be implemented until 4-5 minutes into the game. Meanwhile a Terran can either be 1/2 to 3/4 the way up their tech tree or have a decent sized bio army with concussive shells done and stim on the way, depending on which strategy they decided to pursue right from the beginning of the game. This is the way I see it, although I may just be completely off the rocker. Do you guys see this as a problem or am I just a rambling fool? You are right. Its impossible to get the upgrades you need without hurting your unit effectiveness as soon as you get lair. Chances are you have roaches already, gotta get the speed. Going to need hydras for AA plus they are a good all around unit, thats 100 gas to put it down. then now u have hydras gonna need that range upgrade or else they are kinda lame. Getting essential units thusfar with their upgrades cost 100+100+150=350. Thats a lot of gas. Especially when each hydra you put out is going to cost you 50 gas. Id say those are the common techs and upgrades as soon as lair hits. a spire is 200 gas to put up. infestor pit is another 100. Sure every zerg would love to drop, every zerg would love that overlord speed right away, but its just way too expensive. On one base? good luck getting the required gas when all zerg units cost gas (not including ling). | ||
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DTown
United States428 Posts
On August 21 2010 03:32 Geo.Rion wrote: they should reduce the reserach time. I just hate when P has 30+ probes with no units behind a wall and just puts some pylons to spot for nydus. even slow drop comes so friggin late it's absolutely no chance to make it work. Or LT cliff abusing I just think ovie speed should be T1. Is enabling a lumberingly slow unit that can't even attack to move a bit faster really that OP? and it would have good synergy with the T2 200 gas ovie transport upgrade. One could lead into the other. | ||
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pwnasaurus
Canada190 Posts
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Daudr
Sweden275 Posts
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PinkPrincess
United States149 Posts
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Hunch
Canada336 Posts
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ch4ppi
Germany802 Posts
On August 21 2010 03:40 pwnasaurus wrote: How about making Overseers automatically have the upgrade like they do with speed? That would probably fix all of this gripe about cliff drops and whatnot... That would make every transporter cost about 100 something + 100 Gas and holding 8 supply. Thats like a medivac which can conterminate...but not heal. Sorry no. Anyway DTown pretty much nailed the problems. U NEED to get those upgrades or be even longer in an early game state, even ure in T2, because u dont have T2 units but Overlords that could carry them around. I'd suggest 50/50 Overlord Speed, since Blizzard statet that they just made more expensive to make the Zerg decide...well every Zerg will agree its not a decision its just more expensive. Additionaly I'd like to Ventral Sacs to be around 100/100 up to 150/150. Also the added research time could be lower or Speed T1 (then at the current cost). | ||
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Disastorm
United States922 Posts
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T0fuuu
Australia2275 Posts
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mecra
United States83 Posts
On August 21 2010 04:03 ch4ppi wrote: That would make every transporter cost about 100 something + 100 Gas and holding 8 supply. Thats like a medivac which can conterminate...but not heal. Sorry no. Anyway DTown pretty much nailed the problems. U NEED to get those upgrades or be even longer in an early game state, even ure in T2, because u dont have T2 units but Overlords that could carry them around. I'd suggest 50/50 Overlord Speed, since Blizzard statet that they just made more expensive to make the Zerg decide...well every Zerg will agree its not a decision its just more expensive. Additionaly I'd like to Ventral Sacs to be around 100/100 up to 150/150. Also the added research time could be lower or Speed T1 (then at the current cost). This. Zerg speed, Roach speed, Hydra range are all REQUIRED upgrades as far as Zerg are concerned. I hate that they are all 100/100 but Terran get two 50/50 upgrades for their units. These upgrades are not decisions, they are simply upgrades that are required for those units. Ovi speed is a requirement for Troop transport. That just shows how obvious Blizz is to Zerg because who in their right mind would think that a Zerg player would want Transports at base Ovi speed???? | ||
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Jaug
Sweden249 Posts
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Gescom
Canada3366 Posts
On August 20 2010 15:46 Alpina wrote: Speed price 100/100 is ok. because 50/50 was a no brainer - you just insta upgrade is after lair is finished. But to balance that cost increase they need to make drops 150/150. How is this any different from warpgates or concussive shells? | ||
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Helmetshell
Australia6 Posts
Cost for overlord transport: 550/400, 335s/275s depending if you research speed+sacs at the same time Spawning Pool - 200 65s Lair 150/100 80s Sacs 200/200 130s Speed 100/100 60s Cost for medivacs: 550/300 for 1st medivac, 212s Barracks - 150 60s Factory - 150/100 60s Starport - 150/100 50s Medivac - 100/100 42s Cost for prism: 700/100 for 1st warp prism, 230s Gateway- 150 65s Core - 150 50s Robo - 200/100 65s Prism - 200 50s Now talking 200/200 armies the overlord is fine as a transport, the problem comes with the window between getting t2 and getting something to deal with drops. When a terran goes for Medivac they have a starport. They can choose to also build vikings and banshees from the same building so the 150/100 50s is investing in multiple possible directions. Also the Medivac is used for any mmm build and therefore allows for great synergy. When a toss goes for warp prisms they go for a robo which also allows for obs+immortals. The 200/100 65s is invested in multiple directions (immortal push, warp-in reinforcements and detection/scouting). The warp prism doesnt directly support his army (aka Medivac) but allows for cross map reinforcements. If a zerg goes for an ovie drop its 500/400 275s. Not only is this the most economically expensive its also 35s longer than protoss and 53s longer than terran. The tech allows for faster ovie movement but doesnt in any way contribute to the actually tech or army of the zerg. What the zerg gain from this is cheap transports and multiple transports immediately when the tech finishes. Now factor in the immediate gas usage when entering t2. For a terran the first 100 gas goes for his starport allowing him to get medics for his marine ball, to get vikings for ovie harass or tank sighting, or to go for banshees. the second half of his gas investment (once reaching t2) is in the actual Medivac. For protoss the t2 gas spending is 100 for the core. Then the gas sink comes in for the immortal/stalkers. Either way its stuff all gas. For zerg its 100 for speed followed by 200 for sacs. Now by doing that you delay hydras, you delay mutas to the point where a harass is virtually useless. you delay bling speed and you delay roach speed. The 300 gas for your drop doesnt in any way help you stay alive in t2. by going for fast drop you open yourself up for any t2 timing push. Now thats not to say you cant harass and stay alive, but when you compare it with the spending of the other 2 races it shows how much time and gas (which is the main concern as soon as hive pops) is wasted on a line of tech that only gets you drops. To fix this issue some synergy needs to be introduced so that the drop tech isnt a separate direction from what you need to do. Allowing drop or speed in t1 would alleviate the gas shortage slightly while still making it a difficult decision. Even something like incorporating the cost of the speed or drop into a building that we build units from in t2/t1. eg ovie speed requires a roach warren OR lair. Maybe increase the cost of Lair and give speed automatically. Anything to allow the drop mechanic to synergise with a unit tech TL;DR: Going drops as T or P is a natural progression from getting your t2 units, for zerg it is a separate line of tech that just stalls the roll out of t2 upgrades/t2 units. To alleviate this incorporate one of the techs into a t1/t2 structure to allow for unit tech at the same time | ||
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