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Treehead
999 Posts
On May 05 2011 03:48 trNimitz wrote: Grubby did it on his stream. And I first got this from a top Terran on EU (-> best in the world). Any link to the replays? I can't imagine their armies being the same size... | ||
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hugman
Sweden4644 Posts
On May 05 2011 03:52 taintmachine wrote:however i think his "you can scout, or you can't scout and have an option for an all defensive build. if you can't do either, then the game is broken" argument is a trap. he might simply mean that zerg needs some changes for its early game, but saying the game is completely broken from a balance PoV has to be a major exaggeration, because the results of tournaments and such do not necessarily indicate "brokenness." i don't blame day9 for not really engaging in the argument at all. if a person decides to exaggerate in order to make his points, then that person can't expect to be reasonably engaged in such a complicated topic. There are plenty of results that demonstrate it, go watch anypro vs July for a quick lesson in what IdrA was talking about. | ||
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Xain
Canada94 Posts
I feel that one of the main reason idra is raging so much about his losses is because of his concept of merit. That is, he thinks that because he has spend more time and effort on the game (counting SC1 of course) than probably any other foreigner, he should by definition win by the same proportion. This, I think, is a very dangerous mental process to have in life. It's very easy to be frustrated when you think you deserved something, be it at school, in your love life, at work, when actually more often than not your problem is not the effort you put in but actually the way you approach a problem. I know that personally I had that problem in multiple places in my life, for example in my love life when I though that because I was intellectually "superior" (I put a big emphasis on the "" now) to other guys, I couldn't understand why the girl I wanted went with that stupid guy. Now I see much more of what goes in the process of a relationship, and and even more so I see how much there is left for me to know. Same with music (I'm studying in composition now), where so often I didn't understand why this guy was having success and not the other, when clearly the second had put more work and time, and I thought his music had more depth because it was more complicated. | ||
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Yaotzin
South Africa4280 Posts
On May 05 2011 03:54 Asparagus wrote: but now we're going into how one plays his race over fundamental mechanics. I can understand if MC says it's tough to deal with choosing what to chrono and dropping a fast forge or getting an observer out is dependant on a single probe scout isn't denied within the first 3 minutes of the game, and your choice is dictated by the time your opponent put down his gas, and then playing blind build order and hope what he builds isn't a hard counter to yours, then yes I can see where he's coming from. If he's complaining that toss early game is bad because he lost with 1 gate expand two times in a row, that's a different story. We have to make a stupid robo every single pvt otherwise we gamble that cloaked banshees aren't going to gg us. How is this different to, say, IdrA having to make useless spines in case he gets allined? Everyone makes otherwise pointless sacrifices to save themselves from a hidden threat. I make a cannon IN CASE he roach/speedling allins me, or rushes burrow/move. I have no idea if he is because I'm completely blind at that point. Terran makes a turret IN CASE the protoss hid a dark shrine somewhere. And so on. We all respond to vague threats that probably aren't going to happen and we pay for them. | ||
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Executor1
1353 Posts
On May 05 2011 03:37 Lomak wrote: You can count it as whatever the fuck you please, I could care a less. The fact that the conversation took place is what is key. It really doesnt matter if you agree or disagree with the points made by Idra, because even though he vented (of course) he made a lot of valid, concise points. If your too stupid to filter the bullshit from the rest than that is your own problem. That conversation had a lot of information for those of us that are budding students of this game called starcraft 2. I as a zerg player (BIASED OMG) agree with all the points he made about zerg's early game, and how it comes down to just making a guess, and hoping you fucking guessed right in order to just be ON EVEN KEEL with your opponent. You should look about 10 pages or so back I did some tests with overlord scouting in early game situations. I did it using the best possible situation for the Terran and Protoss and the overlord still got off a full scout on the base I used Wich was Alot bigger than on most maps. If the overlord is timed properly there is no reason between poking the ramp and saccing an ov that a Zerg shouldn't get enough information. Late game overseers and changelings there should be no problem scouting as well as ling scouts. It takes 1 stalker 27 in game seconds to kill an overlord starting after this first shot connected. Also more times than not a Protoss will get a sentry after a zealot and it takes a sentry considerably longer to kill an overlord. Early game I think protoss has just as much of a problem as Zerg at least Zerg can sack an ov Protoss has to wait for hallucinate or a robo. | ||
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101998
United States318 Posts
I would also point out that pro players usually think their race is the weakest because they can see all the holes in their builds and are constantly trying to plug them up. When they hit a wall and don’t know how to fix a chink in their armor it is easy to cry imba imba imba because it feels like there is nowhere to go. It is frustrating feeling, especially at the top since there is no one to turn to for help. So, I can understand Greg’s emotional reaction to the situation I just wish he would actually try to put forth ideas to the people that can actually implement solutions rather than let his vagina bleed all over STOG. | ||
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LagT_T
Argentina535 Posts
On May 05 2011 03:00 Defacer wrote: Colbi actual response was "TL was invited, but they declined." I agree, it's not a perfect or transparent response, but it's not Colbi's job or place to speculate and explain the reasoning of Team Liquid's decision. Colbi could have elaborated, but misrepresenting someone else's position or speaking on their behalf is often more inflammatory in most cases. There is also the possibility that he did not feel comfortable going into detail, because he simply felt he didn't have the authority to do so. Again, I feel like we're arguing about how Colbi could have been more perfect in his communication, which is like arguing whether a white shirt can get whiter. The real issue that Tyler and InControl were discussing was whether the Team Liquid players distaste or resentment towards Colbi and the Master's Cup was fair and warranted. I honestly don't think it was, or if it is, it can hardly be pinned on Colbi's innocuous statement. I agree, although Colbi's answer wasn't perfect, Team Liquid players reacted poorly. | ||
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dementrio
678 Posts
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taintmachine
United States431 Posts
On May 05 2011 03:58 hugman wrote: There are plenty of results that demonstrate it, go watch anypro vs July for a quick lesson in what IdrA was talking about. those games might demonstrate a problem with zerg, but they don't demonstrate total brokenness from a balance pov. it's easy to exaggerate a lot when complaining and might be generally effective when trying to sway people onto your side, but it doesn't seem correct to call the game broken. | ||
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MrCon
France29748 Posts
On May 05 2011 01:06 Defacer wrote: But I'm not even taking side on the EGMasterCup debate, I don't think either is right or wrong. I have to say you missed the point too, as my post wasn't at all about this particular thread. The thing is, teamliquid is the best place for starcraft 2 because it wipes out pollution quickly. Be it trolls, spammers, advertisers...By PR bullshit I don't talk about someone who is publicly and transparently supporting an organisation (that's why the geof comment about stride gum was completely misplaced), I talk about people that have an agenda but who act like they don't.I think you missed the point, MrCon. You need to read the actual EG Master's Cup thread. EG and Colbi DID hold themselves to a high ethical standard, and responded with a neutral, diplomatic and non-partisan response. It was the Team Liquid players that escalated the matter and made it combative, to the point that the admins had to simmer it down. I think everyone on the show would agree that there shouldn't be any 'PR bullshit' on the site and as much transparency as possible. But if your going to demonize every person that sells them self, or withholds information to protect their image as well as the image of others, well, you're going to have a problem with 99% of society. Geoff is exactly right, it is a "dangerous way of thinking", and a slippery slope. So people stop about this, if I had to side on the EGMaster thing, I would side this EG this time (but philosophically I side with TL). I think Tyler handled this poorly. | ||
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NoXious90
United Kingdom160 Posts
On May 05 2011 03:53 travis wrote: When has day9 said that is what he thinks? I am pretty sure he just thinks that avenues should be properly explored before balance complaints should become prominent. 'It just needs to be figured out' can be stated indefinitely and continuously even where there's no reasonable justification for it. | ||
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StarCraft64
United States354 Posts
My solution is to give overlords a sprint ability. It would temporarily (~10 seconds) make overlords move as fast as if they had speed upgraded, and it would be on a cooldown. They would lose this ability when speed is upgraded. | ||
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zarepath
United States1626 Posts
I think the point that Day9 was reluctant to make was that, sure, Zerg is certainly weak at those things (defense and scouting), but maybe that's okay. It's not like Zerg is the only race that occasionally must gamble in order to be successful. And I think that Tyler's point about this was interesting -- that perhaps this particular complaint, about how Terran can do a risky build without the Zerg knowing about it, is actually a complaint about play style more than it is game balance, because the Zerg MUST do a risk of their own in order to beat it. I think that any of the 3 races can complain that they have no 100% safe build, and to suggest that Zerg MUST have a concrete way of scouting perfectly and reacting perfectly at all times or else they're imbalanced is not a good argument, in my opinion. (Off-hand, though, I think Zerg is still the most underpowered race, so my heart goes out to Idra. I just thought that Tyler's point was a really intelligent one.) | ||
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Baarn
United States2702 Posts
On May 05 2011 04:10 StarCraft64 wrote: As Idra clearly argued, the main problem with zerg early game is the inability to scout. I believe this to be a problem as well. My solution is to give overlords a sprint ability. It would temporarily (~10 seconds) make overlords move as fast as if they had speed upgraded, and it would be on a cooldown. They would lose this ability when speed is upgraded. Less risk and even more reward seems the idea with zerg players. | ||
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Yaotzin
South Africa4280 Posts
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vojnik
Macedonia923 Posts
On May 05 2011 04:11 zarepath wrote: By golly, that was a crackerjack episode! I think the point that Day9 was reluctant to make was that, sure, Zerg is certainly weak at those things (defense and scouting), but maybe that's okay. It's not like Zerg is the only race that occasionally must gamble in order to be successful. And I think that Tyler's point about this was interesting -- that perhaps this particular complaint, about how Terran can do a risky build without the Zerg knowing about it, is actually a complaint about play style more than it is game balance, because the Zerg MUST do a risk of their own in order to beat it. I think that any of the 3 races can complain that they have no 100% safe build, and to suggest that Zerg MUST have a concrete way of scouting perfectly and reacting perfectly at all times or else they're imbalanced is not a good argument, in my opinion. (Off-hand, though, I think Zerg is still the most underpowered race, so my heart goes out to Idra. I just thought that Tyler's point was a really intelligent one.) but one point that idra makes that separates the terran and protoss aspect is that zerg is the defensive race. Also there are builds like 2 gate robo vs terran and 3 gate expand vs zerg that are pretty safe compared to standard zerg openings. | ||
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Yaotzin
South Africa4280 Posts
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LagT_T
Argentina535 Posts
On May 05 2011 04:16 vojnik wrote: but one point that idra makes that separates the terran and protoss aspect is that zerg is the defensive race. Also there are builds like 2 gate robo vs terran and 3 gate expand vs zerg that are pretty safe compared to standard zerg openings. Why is zerg the defensive race? What does defensive means? | ||
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Asparagus
United States269 Posts
On May 05 2011 04:02 Yaotzin wrote: We have to make a stupid robo every single pvt otherwise we gamble that cloaked banshees aren't going to gg us. How is this different to, say, IdrA having to make useless spines in case he gets allined? Everyone makes otherwise pointless sacrifices to save themselves from a hidden threat. I make a cannon IN CASE he roach/speedling allins me, or rushes burrow/move. I have no idea if he is because I'm completely blind at that point. Terran makes a turret IN CASE the protoss hid a dark shrine somewhere. And so on. We all respond to vague threats that probably aren't going to happen and we pay for them. you're acting as if it's hard to scout a roach warren being built? your probe has free reign until the first set of longs pop, and if he 14/14's you have a specific window you know when the roach warren should be down, and with that window speed ain't even up, or the rush is so delayed that by the time he gets to your base you've already won. It's not like we have a wall or anything that prevents ground units from scouting our roach warren. TvZ what should i prepare for? 1 spine for potential early game pressure ling speed roach warren for helions baneling nest for marine stim push debate whether to spend gas on roaches if he's just delaying for blueflame, or to bank it in case he pushes out with marines and I need banelings, or float 100 just in case I see him feign any aggression whatsoever and I need lair asap. oh and I'm making drones the whole time so at any point I have maybe a 4-5 units out, 2 of which are at the towers. your example: robo, you can skimp on static defense because you have forcefield, and in ZvP you dictate what build we do, it's never been the other way around. | ||
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Lomak
United States311 Posts
On May 05 2011 04:17 Yaotzin wrote: Funny build to mention after Kiwikaki died twice using 3gate expand. What did he die to? Idra's allin. Hah. Pretty funny that you use that game as an excuse, where if Kiwi would of had a better reaction time and proper force field use, then Idra's all in would of failed both times. I would bet you money that if you were to ask Kiwi himself he would tell you that he shouldnt of lost those games. | ||
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