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On May 05 2011 04:02 Yaotzin wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2011 03:54 Asparagus wrote:On May 05 2011 03:47 travis wrote:On May 05 2011 03:41 Asparagus wrote:On May 05 2011 03:31 travis wrote:On May 05 2011 03:25 WhiteDog wrote:On May 05 2011 03:21 travis wrote:
Random fact: most people are biased about the race they play. Even top pros! Yeah, and it's easier for you to state that fact rather than argue with anyone on balance. yeah, it is lol i remember talking to a friend of mine who is a good bw player, just started playing sc2 seriously he insists that terran is clearly the weakest race(he plays terran). IMMVP said terran is weakest too. apparently there are other top terrans who do too. [I think saying terran is the weakest is actually hilarious though] idra thinks zerg is the weakest. he's not the only top zerg who thinks so MC said he thought protoss was a little UP, right? I kinda think that too, though I am not a top pro. I play protoss. So my conclusion is, just listen to people who seriously analyze the game but aren't invested in a race. People like day9. Other than that, look at statistics from higher level tournaments. Everything else is biased as shit and worthless I didn't even watch this episode btw. But I am going to because I heard it's a good watch. you throw idra's credentials out the window with this statement like he's some diamond who doesn't know any more about the metagame than anyone else, and what comes out of his mouth hold no water, nevermind the fact that he's the most accomplished member on SotG currently. mvp never got as specific as IdrA has in terms of actually backing up why he thinks his specific race is UP. *edit* but whatever, he's just some code-s nobody who bitches too much right? I am sure idra has great reasons as to what is hard about zerg. You think MC or IMMVP can't list some reasons as to why protoss and terran are hard? It's not very difficult to come up with complaints about what you think isn't fair about your race. And guess what, a lot of people who play your same race are going to identify with it and agree with you. but now we're going into how one plays his race over fundamental mechanics. I can understand if MC says it's tough to deal with choosing what to chrono and dropping a fast forge or getting an observer out is dependant on a single probe scout isn't denied within the first 3 minutes of the game, and your choice is dictated by the time your opponent put down his gas, and then playing blind build order and hope what he builds isn't a hard counter to yours, then yes I can see where he's coming from. If he's complaining that toss early game is bad because he lost with 1 gate expand two times in a row, that's a different story. We have to make a stupid robo every single pvt otherwise we gamble that cloaked banshees aren't going to gg us. How is this different to, say, IdrA having to make useless spines in case he gets allined? Everyone makes otherwise pointless sacrifices to save themselves from a hidden threat. I make a cannon IN CASE he roach/speedling allins me, or rushes burrow/move. I have no idea if he is because I'm completely blind at that point. Terran makes a turret IN CASE the protoss hid a dark shrine somewhere. And so on. We all respond to vague threats that probably aren't going to happen and we pay for them.
Indeed.
Defensive play (preparing against every shadow threat) will always create a disadvantage against greedy play. That's the point of scouting, of game sense, and of trickery. If you always play defensively, you're fine against a cheesy player, but you have to significantly outplay a greedy player.
You can also play aggressively, and limit the space of the opponent's options. I'm fond of that style because it forces confrontations quickly.
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On May 05 2011 04:17 LagT_T wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2011 04:16 vojnik wrote:On May 05 2011 04:11 zarepath wrote:
By golly, that was a crackerjack episode!
I think the point that Day9 was reluctant to make was that, sure, Zerg is certainly weak at those things (defense and scouting), but maybe that's okay. It's not like Zerg is the only race that occasionally must gamble in order to be successful.
And I think that Tyler's point about this was interesting -- that perhaps this particular complaint, about how Terran can do a risky build without the Zerg knowing about it, is actually a complaint about play style more than it is game balance, because the Zerg MUST do a risk of their own in order to beat it.
I think that any of the 3 races can complain that they have no 100% safe build, and to suggest that Zerg MUST have a concrete way of scouting perfectly and reacting perfectly at all times or else they're imbalanced is not a good argument, in my opinion.
(Off-hand, though, I think Zerg is still the most underpowered race, so my heart goes out to Idra. I just thought that Tyler's point was a really intelligent one.) but one point that idra makes that separates the terran and protoss aspect is that zerg is the defensive race. Also there are builds like 2 gate robo vs terran and 3 gate expand vs zerg that are pretty safe compared to standard zerg openings. Why is zerg the defensive race? What does defensive means?
having no wall off? having to use specific units for defense? no t1 anti air unit?
a sentry with proper use can deny any early zerg agression except for 6 pool which is not that hard to spot either.
Only benelings or roaches are decent enough to break terran walls which can easily be scouted, no proxy (except for catz shenanigans) or hidden tech before lair.
you need more?
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On May 05 2011 04:20 Asparagus wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2011 04:02 Yaotzin wrote:On May 05 2011 03:54 Asparagus wrote:On May 05 2011 03:47 travis wrote:On May 05 2011 03:41 Asparagus wrote:On May 05 2011 03:31 travis wrote:On May 05 2011 03:25 WhiteDog wrote:On May 05 2011 03:21 travis wrote:
Random fact: most people are biased about the race they play. Even top pros! Yeah, and it's easier for you to state that fact rather than argue with anyone on balance. yeah, it is lol i remember talking to a friend of mine who is a good bw player, just started playing sc2 seriously he insists that terran is clearly the weakest race(he plays terran). IMMVP said terran is weakest too. apparently there are other top terrans who do too. [I think saying terran is the weakest is actually hilarious though] idra thinks zerg is the weakest. he's not the only top zerg who thinks so MC said he thought protoss was a little UP, right? I kinda think that too, though I am not a top pro. I play protoss. So my conclusion is, just listen to people who seriously analyze the game but aren't invested in a race. People like day9. Other than that, look at statistics from higher level tournaments. Everything else is biased as shit and worthless I didn't even watch this episode btw. But I am going to because I heard it's a good watch. you throw idra's credentials out the window with this statement like he's some diamond who doesn't know any more about the metagame than anyone else, and what comes out of his mouth hold no water, nevermind the fact that he's the most accomplished member on SotG currently. mvp never got as specific as IdrA has in terms of actually backing up why he thinks his specific race is UP. *edit* but whatever, he's just some code-s nobody who bitches too much right? I am sure idra has great reasons as to what is hard about zerg. You think MC or IMMVP can't list some reasons as to why protoss and terran are hard? It's not very difficult to come up with complaints about what you think isn't fair about your race. And guess what, a lot of people who play your same race are going to identify with it and agree with you. but now we're going into how one plays his race over fundamental mechanics. I can understand if MC says it's tough to deal with choosing what to chrono and dropping a fast forge or getting an observer out is dependant on a single probe scout isn't denied within the first 3 minutes of the game, and your choice is dictated by the time your opponent put down his gas, and then playing blind build order and hope what he builds isn't a hard counter to yours, then yes I can see where he's coming from. If he's complaining that toss early game is bad because he lost with 1 gate expand two times in a row, that's a different story. We have to make a stupid robo every single pvt otherwise we gamble that cloaked banshees aren't going to gg us. How is this different to, say, IdrA having to make useless spines in case he gets allined? Everyone makes otherwise pointless sacrifices to save themselves from a hidden threat. I make a cannon IN CASE he roach/speedling allins me, or rushes burrow/move. I have no idea if he is because I'm completely blind at that point. Terran makes a turret IN CASE the protoss hid a dark shrine somewhere. And so on. We all respond to vague threats that probably aren't going to happen and we pay for them. you're acting as if it's hard to scout a roach warren being built? your probe has free reign until the first set of longs pop, and if he 14/14's you have a specific window you know when the roach warren should be down, and with that window speed ain't even up, or the rush is so delayed that by the time he gets to your base you've already won. It's not like we have a wall or anything that prevents ground units from scouting our roach warren. TvZ what should i prepare for? 1 spine for potential early game pressure ling speed roach warren for helions baneling nest for marine stim push debate whether to spend gas on roaches if he's just delaying for blueflame, or to bank it in case he pushes out with marines and I need banelings, or float 100 just in case I see him feign any aggression whatsoever and I need lair asap. oh and I'm making drones the whole time so at any point I have maybe a 4-5 units out, 2 of which are at the towers. your example: robo, you can skimp on static defense because you have forcefield, and in ZvP you dictate what build we do, it's never been the other way around.
That's the risk you take with that build for the expo to be denied. If Terran or Protoss expo that early you'd try to deny it also.
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On May 05 2011 04:17 LagT_T wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2011 04:16 vojnik wrote:On May 05 2011 04:11 zarepath wrote:
By golly, that was a crackerjack episode!
I think the point that Day9 was reluctant to make was that, sure, Zerg is certainly weak at those things (defense and scouting), but maybe that's okay. It's not like Zerg is the only race that occasionally must gamble in order to be successful.
And I think that Tyler's point about this was interesting -- that perhaps this particular complaint, about how Terran can do a risky build without the Zerg knowing about it, is actually a complaint about play style more than it is game balance, because the Zerg MUST do a risk of their own in order to beat it.
I think that any of the 3 races can complain that they have no 100% safe build, and to suggest that Zerg MUST have a concrete way of scouting perfectly and reacting perfectly at all times or else they're imbalanced is not a good argument, in my opinion.
(Off-hand, though, I think Zerg is still the most underpowered race, so my heart goes out to Idra. I just thought that Tyler's point was a really intelligent one.) but one point that idra makes that separates the terran and protoss aspect is that zerg is the defensive race. Also there are builds like 2 gate robo vs terran and 3 gate expand vs zerg that are pretty safe compared to standard zerg openings. Why is zerg the defensive race? What does defensive means?
It means that in order for Zerg to have the same production as a Terran or Protoss, they must have a second hatch. It means that in order for Zerg to be able to actually use the hatch for meaningful production, they must have an expansion. It means that in order for Zerg to enter the midgame without being behind, that expansion and probably another one need to survive.
It's a function of their units being weaker per cost, but making up for that by being more easily mass-produced. In order for the Zerg to have that mass-production advantage (that is the only thing keeping Zerg units from just being straight-up awful), they have to expand and keep that expansion in the early game -- thus making them defensive.
From a design standpoint, Zerg enters every game defensively unless they plan on all-inning.
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i'm actually gonna leave this discussion, zerg's fine top pros just don't know how to open doors.
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On May 05 2011 04:29 zarepath wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2011 04:17 LagT_T wrote:On May 05 2011 04:16 vojnik wrote:On May 05 2011 04:11 zarepath wrote:
By golly, that was a crackerjack episode!
I think the point that Day9 was reluctant to make was that, sure, Zerg is certainly weak at those things (defense and scouting), but maybe that's okay. It's not like Zerg is the only race that occasionally must gamble in order to be successful.
And I think that Tyler's point about this was interesting -- that perhaps this particular complaint, about how Terran can do a risky build without the Zerg knowing about it, is actually a complaint about play style more than it is game balance, because the Zerg MUST do a risk of their own in order to beat it.
I think that any of the 3 races can complain that they have no 100% safe build, and to suggest that Zerg MUST have a concrete way of scouting perfectly and reacting perfectly at all times or else they're imbalanced is not a good argument, in my opinion.
(Off-hand, though, I think Zerg is still the most underpowered race, so my heart goes out to Idra. I just thought that Tyler's point was a really intelligent one.) but one point that idra makes that separates the terran and protoss aspect is that zerg is the defensive race. Also there are builds like 2 gate robo vs terran and 3 gate expand vs zerg that are pretty safe compared to standard zerg openings. Why is zerg the defensive race? What does defensive means? It means that in order for Zerg to have the same production as a Terran or Protoss, they must have a second hatch. It means that in order for Zerg to be able to actually use the hatch for meaningful production, they must have an expansion. It means that in order for Zerg to enter the midgame without being behind, that expansion and probably another one need to survive. It's a function of their units being weaker per cost, but making up for that by being more easily mass-produced. In order for the Zerg to have that mass-production advantage (that is the only thing keeping Zerg units from just being straight-up awful), they have to expand and keep that expansion in the early game -- thus making them defensive. From a design standpoint, Zerg enters every game defensively unless they plan on all-inning.
This is one of the better explanations of the issue that I've seen.
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JP DARE YOU TO EVER GET IDRA BACK ON THE SHOW
I now listened 45 minutes and i CAN'T stand his stupid bullshit anymore.
Hey, the Protosses even did what i suggested, said what they have trouble with. But they just got shut by Idra.
Then he says "We can talk after a Zerg wins a game" while he himself has won IPL.
It is just bad.
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I don't claim to be some age old vet of the community but even I know that idra's thing is complaining how underpowered his race is. It was like that in Broodwar when he played Terran and it's like that now as Zerg. It's just what he does. I mean it was even brought up last night in the show about his thoughts on broodwar Terran.
He could have some points and maybe he does but conversely I wouldn't really want to take balance advice from a guy who's entire thing besides being a really good player is say how his race is underpowered.
Good show thou, really full of drama and such I was amused thou Incontrol's yelling scared me.
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On May 05 2011 04:32 gnutz wrote:
JP DARE YOU TO EVER GET IDRA BACK ON THE SHOW
I now listened 45 minutes and i CAN'T stand his stupid bullshit anymore.
Hey, the Protosses even did what i suggested, said what they have trouble with. But they just got shut by Idra.
Then he says "We can talk after a Zerg wins a game" while he himself has won IPL.
It is just bad.
Indeed, how dare JP have biased players on his podcast called "state of the game" talking about the state of the game. How dare he.
The entire podcast should be neutered personalities talking gingerly to each other about how much they all agree with each other on every possible topic.
When it gets down and dirty with an actual engaging conversation i just get lost in it.
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IdrA calls all his fan boys onto SOTG and then lays into Day9. Wow. How can you people not see the similarities between him and hitler.
here you go. I am not just saying idra is a nazi.
"The people were poor and dying of starvation and disease. The country was broke from fighting the war and as stated in the Treaty of Versailles had to pay the Allies large sums of money to compensate for the suffering caused by the war. The only way the country could come up with the funds needed was to tax its people heavily."
This was Germany. Hitler comes along and says something people want to hear. They want to blame someone/something. Propaganda.
Zerg was on its way down. MC stomps Zerg. Zergs are frantically trying to get this fixed. Suddendly...idra comes a long. People don't want to hear its your problem get better/fix it. IdrA says, no..its not your problem. its the game. Zergs start jumping on the bandwagon. Idra's propaganda is this SOTG episode. Its so similar!
Luckily...blizzard can step in and stop you people before all kinds of protoss have to die 
Wake up. IdrA is a cult leader. WAKE UP!!!
User was temp banned for this post.
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On May 05 2011 01:19 Gentso wrote:
Man, I wish you guys had a chance to involve Tasteless more in the show. That was really unfortunate how he came on (even with his webcam) and all he did was sit there listening to nonsensical babble until he gave his shoutouts. I saw the sadness in his eyes as he was waiting to be part of the show!
Completely agree, they had tasteless on for once and jp decided it would be better to continue with a debate that had been going on in circles for various reasons for ages, shoulda abused the fact he was on for once.
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On May 05 2011 04:20 Asparagus wrote:
you're acting as if it's hard to scout a roach warren being built? your probe has free reign until the first set of longs pop, and if he 14/14's you have a specific window you know when the roach warren should be down, and with that window speed ain't even up, or the rush is so delayed that by the time he gets to your base you've already won. It's not like we have a wall or anything that prevents ground units from scouting our roach warren.
If he goes ling pop -> deny worker scout -> roach/speedling allin, and I don't have a cannon, I die.
what should i prepare for?
1 spine for potential early game pressure
OK like my cannon.
ling speed
roach warren for helions
baneling nest for marine stim push
You want this stuff anyway wtf. This is like me complaining I have research warp gates in case I get attacked, just silly.
debate whether to spend gas on roaches if he's just delaying for blueflame, or to bank it in case he pushes out with marines and I need banelings, or float 100 just in case I see him feign any aggression whatsoever and I need lair asap.
Yeah tough balance, that's Starcraft. If I warp in too many sentry/zealots and he's doing a big roach burrow allin guess what, I die.
your example: robo, you can skimp on static defense because you have forcefield,
I skimp on static defence because static defence is trash again Terran. I can't skimp on it against Zerg. I'd love to, but I can't.
and in ZvP you dictate what build we do, it's never been the other way around.
Bullshit.
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On May 05 2011 04:34 TheResidentEvil wrote:IdrA calls all his fan boys onto SOTG and then lays into Day9. Wow. How can you people not see the similarities between him and hitler. here you go. I am not just saying idra is a nazi. "The people were poor and dying of starvation and disease. The country was broke from fighting the war and as stated in the Treaty of Versailles had to pay the Allies large sums of money to compensate for the suffering caused by the war. The only way the country could come up with the funds needed was to tax its people heavily." This was Germany. Hitler comes along and says something people want to hear. They want to blame someone/something. Zerg was on its way down. MC stomps Zerg. Zergs are frantically trying to get this fixed. Suddendly...idra comes a long. People don't want to hear its your problem get better/fix it. IdrA says, no..its not your problem. its the game. Zergs start jumping on the bandwagon. Luckily...blizzard can step in and stop you people before all kinds of protoss have to die Wake up. IdrA is a cult leader. WAKE UP!!!
your post is neither amusing or intelligent and contributes nothing to this thread.
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I agree with Tyler's point that Colbi handled the EG Masters cup absolutely terribly and the EG guys really should be ashamed of being associated with his actions. Geoff and Idra just didn't get Tyler's point that Colbi's method of discussion was terrible.
Colbi was horribly deceptive and he should have been laughed off the community with such blatant lies.
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On May 05 2011 04:33 Lomak wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2011 04:32 gnutz wrote:
JP DARE YOU TO EVER GET IDRA BACK ON THE SHOW
I now listened 45 minutes and i CAN'T stand his stupid bullshit anymore.
Hey, the Protosses even did what i suggested, said what they have trouble with. But they just got shut by Idra.
Then he says "We can talk after a Zerg wins a game" while he himself has won IPL.
It is just bad. Indeed, how dare JP have biased players on his podcast called "state of the game" talking about the state of the game. How dare he. The entire podcast should be neutered personalities talking gingerly to each other about how much they all agree with each other on every possible topic. When it gets down and dirty with an actual engaging conversation i just get lost in it.
omg no
its just
he talked the exact same bullshit in the last 2 sotgs. and here it gets worse.
Idra should leave the community. He is the peron to blame, that every Protoss (and Terran) only gets flamed in the ladder. He is the person to blame i don't enjoy playing Sc2 anymore, because you can't have a real game. He is the person to blame there is so much bullshit in the community nowadays. He should just shut up.
PS: Sorry this is just a ragepost about this bad SotG that i had to stop listening.
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On May 05 2011 04:35 Yaotzin wrote:You want this stuff anyway wtf. This is like me complaining I have research warp gates in case I get attacked, just silly.
What exactly do you think with? Mr protoss advice to zergs surviving early game:
1)Get ling speed
2)Get a roach warren
3)Get a baneling nest.
Then you die...
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On May 05 2011 04:32 OldManZerg wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2011 04:29 zarepath wrote:On May 05 2011 04:17 LagT_T wrote:On May 05 2011 04:16 vojnik wrote:On May 05 2011 04:11 zarepath wrote:
By golly, that was a crackerjack episode!
I think the point that Day9 was reluctant to make was that, sure, Zerg is certainly weak at those things (defense and scouting), but maybe that's okay. It's not like Zerg is the only race that occasionally must gamble in order to be successful.
And I think that Tyler's point about this was interesting -- that perhaps this particular complaint, about how Terran can do a risky build without the Zerg knowing about it, is actually a complaint about play style more than it is game balance, because the Zerg MUST do a risk of their own in order to beat it.
I think that any of the 3 races can complain that they have no 100% safe build, and to suggest that Zerg MUST have a concrete way of scouting perfectly and reacting perfectly at all times or else they're imbalanced is not a good argument, in my opinion.
(Off-hand, though, I think Zerg is still the most underpowered race, so my heart goes out to Idra. I just thought that Tyler's point was a really intelligent one.) but one point that idra makes that separates the terran and protoss aspect is that zerg is the defensive race. Also there are builds like 2 gate robo vs terran and 3 gate expand vs zerg that are pretty safe compared to standard zerg openings. Why is zerg the defensive race? What does defensive means? It means that in order for Zerg to have the same production as a Terran or Protoss, they must have a second hatch. It means that in order for Zerg to be able to actually use the hatch for meaningful production, they must have an expansion. It means that in order for Zerg to enter the midgame without being behind, that expansion and probably another one need to survive. It's a function of their units being weaker per cost, but making up for that by being more easily mass-produced. In order for the Zerg to have that mass-production advantage (that is the only thing keeping Zerg units from just being straight-up awful), they have to expand and keep that expansion in the early game -- thus making them defensive. From a design standpoint, Zerg enters every game defensively unless they plan on all-inning. This is one of the better explanations of the issue that I've seen.
Sure but zerg players aren't playing the same design the developers created initially. Maybe by HOT beta blizzard will redesign the race so the non 14/14 builds don't feel as clunky which is one the problems that isn't discussed or explored even. Always more discussion on fixing 14/14 than fixing other builds.
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On May 05 2011 04:10 NoXious90 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2011 03:53 travis wrote:On May 05 2011 03:49 NoXious90 wrote:On May 05 2011 00:46 Louuster wrote:On May 05 2011 00:23 Duravi wrote:
Day9 for part of the discussion was talking about balance in a different way than we commonly understand it to be in SC2. When he was talking about reaching an equilibrium he was saying that nothing is imbalanced because ultimately people will figure out the better way to do things and then it just comes down to execution. To give an example someone alluded to earlier, he is saying something like, "If zerglings are ridiculously strong and make it impossible for the other races to win, every pro will switch to zerg, use a zergling focused strat, and whoever can execute that the best will win, so there is no imbalance."
This view is not productive at all. When we talk about balance in SC2 we are talking about the best player having the best chance to win REGARDLESS of their race. So it is in a sense combining balance with game design. Day 9 doesn't want to have that discussion. If you want to combat Idra you need to debate one of his initial assumptions, not what "balance" means in SC2.
Idra posited two things:
1. In order to give the better player the best chance to win you either need to be able to scout effectively early in the game or if you are not able to do so be able to blind counter anything it is not possible to scout with a safe build that does not leave you behind until you have the ability to scout again.
2. Zerg cannot do either of those things.
If you want to debate Idra attack one of those; once you admit both are true you essentially have to agree with him. How Sean responded is unproductive. But that way of thinking was shown as correct in BW, which is where all these guys come from and also why Day9 wants to and can argue in favor of it. Back in 06-07, when Savior was killing every zerg on the planet the matchup really seemed imbalanced until an unknown protoss went on to beat him 3-0 in the finals of a big tournament by showing a completely new forge fe into corsair/dt build. Day9 is essentially looking at it from the perspective of a viewer, saying that builds will eventually get figured out. On the other hand, Idra is looking at it from the point of view of a player, who needs to win now instead of a year from now, which is why they will never agree on that point. Day9 takes the stance of thinking that because strategy exists, there therefore will always be workarounds for all difficulties or perceived imbalances, therefore the entire notion of imbalance should never ever be discussed or entertained. But this is completely wrong and stupid, why would you eliminate something that all evidence and logical introspection points to from the realm of possibility for NO good reason? it's absurd. You'd be hard pressed to find anyone who would admit SC2 is free of flaws and has no room for improvement. When has day9 said that is what he thinks? I am pretty sure he just thinks that avenues should be properly explored before balance complaints should become prominent. 'It just needs to be figured out' can be stated indefinitely and continuously even where there's no reasonable justification for it.
What is your point? Are you Nostradamus, do you know he will say it indefinitely? Maybe it does "just need to be figured out"?
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On May 05 2011 04:22 Lomak wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2011 04:17 Yaotzin wrote:
Funny build to mention after Kiwikaki died twice using 3gate expand. What did he die to? Idra's allin. Hah. Pretty funny that you use that game as an excuse, where if Kiwi would of had a better reaction time and proper force field use, then Idra's all in would of failed both times. I would bet you money that if you were to ask Kiwi himself he would tell you that he shouldnt of lost those games.
That's a difference in terms of a players view of the game, Kiwikaki's would be a healthy, "Yeah, I shouldn't have lost that".
IdrA's would have been, "Shitty fucking all-in coin flip balls, nothing I can do, weakest race".
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I dont really see much wrong with what IdrA was saying. Tyler also seemed to agree with him as did Tasteless. Incontrol facially disagreed but didn't verbalize anything. The only person that didn't agree was day9 and he provided no counter argument or anything useful to counter what IdrA was saying. To Day9s defense maybe it would really take too long and too much to detail to go into on the spot so he didn't.
I also think they agreed at the end that its a game design problem not necessarily an imbalance.
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EPT
