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On May 05 2011 04:36 ComusLoM wrote:
I agree with Tyler's point that Colbi handled the EG Masters cup absolutely terribly and the EG guys really should be ashamed of being associated with his actions. Geoff and Idra just didn't get Tyler's point that Colbi's method of discussion was terrible.
Colbi was horribly deceptive and he should have been laughed off the community with such blatant lies.
You forgot the /sarcasm
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On May 05 2011 04:32 gnutz wrote:
JP DARE YOU TO EVER GET IDRA BACK ON THE SHOW
I now listened 45 minutes and i CAN'T stand his stupid bullshit anymore.
Hey, the Protosses even did what i suggested, said what they have trouble with. But they just got shut by Idra.
Then he says "We can talk after a Zerg wins a game" while he himself has won IPL.
It is just bad.
A former Korean Brood War pro stomped a foreigner tournament and that disproves his argument? Not like he shut down the best SC2 strategic analyst in our community.
It's clear you don't like him, but disprove his points. Go on. Day[9] couldn't.
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On May 05 2011 04:39 nihlon wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2011 04:35 Yaotzin wrote:
ling speed
roach warren for helions
baneling nest for marine stim push
You want this stuff anyway wtf. This is like me complaining I have research warp gates in case I get attacked, just silly. What exactly do you think with? Mr protoss advice to zergs surviving early game: 1)Get ling speed 2)Get a roach warren 3)Get a baneling nest. Then you die...
He was talking about ZvT. You want that stuff in ZvT in pretty much every game. No different to me saying I have to build 3+ gateways and a robo and a citadel and blah blah blah to survive. Well no shit it's a war game, I have to build military stuff.
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On May 05 2011 04:35 Yaotzin wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2011 04:20 Asparagus wrote:
you're acting as if it's hard to scout a roach warren being built? your probe has free reign until the first set of longs pop, and if he 14/14's you have a specific window you know when the roach warren should be down, and with that window speed ain't even up, or the rush is so delayed that by the time he gets to your base you've already won. It's not like we have a wall or anything that prevents ground units from scouting our roach warren.
If he goes ling pop -> deny worker scout -> roach/speedling allin, and I don't have a cannon, I die. OK like my cannon. You want this stuff anyway wtf. This is like me complaining I have research warp gates in case I get attacked, just silly. Show nested quote +
debate whether to spend gas on roaches if he's just delaying for blueflame, or to bank it in case he pushes out with marines and I need banelings, or float 100 just in case I see him feign any aggression whatsoever and I need lair asap.
Yeah tough balance, that's Starcraft. If I warp in too many sentry/zealots and he's doing a big roach burrow allin guess what, I die. Show nested quote +
your example: robo, you can skimp on static defense because you have forcefield,
I skimp on static defence because static defence is trash again Terran. I can't skimp on it against Zerg. I'd love to, but I can't. Show nested quote +
and in ZvP you dictate what build we do, it's never been the other way around.
Bullshit.
your decision making skill is bad, i don't even know where to start with this.
no zerg makes every unit early game, that's the dumbest thing I've ever heard, might as well get 4 queens while you're taking your fast 3rd and 4th so you're ready for everything right?
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Can someone tell me why State of the Game doesn't get a better website ? I mean the blogspot thing isnt great .
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Is it necessary Hydrox? All they need to do is post the podcast, everything else is located on this thread.
And I'm not sure what the issue is with the Colbi/EG Team liquid thing. Colbi stated the truth, the mention of deception is outrageous. Team Liquid denied the invitation, thus the reason they are not playing in the tournament. Where did it become negative or deceptive?
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On May 05 2011 04:50 Asparagus wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2011 04:35 Yaotzin wrote:On May 05 2011 04:20 Asparagus wrote:
you're acting as if it's hard to scout a roach warren being built? your probe has free reign until the first set of longs pop, and if he 14/14's you have a specific window you know when the roach warren should be down, and with that window speed ain't even up, or the rush is so delayed that by the time he gets to your base you've already won. It's not like we have a wall or anything that prevents ground units from scouting our roach warren.
If he goes ling pop -> deny worker scout -> roach/speedling allin, and I don't have a cannon, I die.
what should i prepare for?
1 spine for potential early game pressure
OK like my cannon.
ling speed
roach warren for helions
baneling nest for marine stim push
You want this stuff anyway wtf. This is like me complaining I have research warp gates in case I get attacked, just silly.
debate whether to spend gas on roaches if he's just delaying for blueflame, or to bank it in case he pushes out with marines and I need banelings, or float 100 just in case I see him feign any aggression whatsoever and I need lair asap.
Yeah tough balance, that's Starcraft. If I warp in too many sentry/zealots and he's doing a big roach burrow allin guess what, I die.
your example: robo, you can skimp on static defense because you have forcefield,
I skimp on static defence because static defence is trash again Terran. I can't skimp on it against Zerg. I'd love to, but I can't.
and in ZvP you dictate what build we do, it's never been the other way around.
Bullshit. you are bad, i don't even know where to start with this. no zerg makes every unit early game, that's the dumbest thing I've ever heard, might as well get 4 queens while you're taking your fast 3rd and 4th so you're ready for everything right?
What the hell are you talking about? Where did I say Zerg made every unit? What the hell?
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On May 05 2011 04:51 dbosworld wrote:
Is it necessary Hydrox? All they need to do is post the podcast, everything else is located on this thread.
I would agree with Hydrox.. Getting a hold of the MP3 is about impossible if you're using Chrome, for instance, since the pause/resume-trick dosn't work.. Also, no clickable link to the Blip.tv-vod, you have to select it and paste it into your browser..
I agree, it's no big deal or anything, but it's just the things that I notice when I try to listen/watch
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On May 05 2011 04:39 gnutz wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2011 04:33 Lomak wrote:On May 05 2011 04:32 gnutz wrote:
JP DARE YOU TO EVER GET IDRA BACK ON THE SHOW
I now listened 45 minutes and i CAN'T stand his stupid bullshit anymore.
Hey, the Protosses even did what i suggested, said what they have trouble with. But they just got shut by Idra.
Then he says "We can talk after a Zerg wins a game" while he himself has won IPL.
It is just bad. Indeed, how dare JP have biased players on his podcast called "state of the game" talking about the state of the game. How dare he. The entire podcast should be neutered personalities talking gingerly to each other about how much they all agree with each other on every possible topic. When it gets down and dirty with an actual engaging conversation i just get lost in it. omg no its just he talked the exact same bullshit in the last 2 sotgs. and here it gets worse. Idra should leave the community. He is the peron to blame, that every Protoss (and Terran) only gets flamed in the ladder. He is the person to blame i don't enjoy playing Sc2 anymore, because you can't have a real game. He is the person to blame there is so much bullshit in the community nowadays. He should just shut up. PS: Sorry this is just a ragepost about this bad SotG that i had to stop listening.
He should leave the community? He has contributed more to the community and the growth of e-sports than most people will in their entire lifetime.
I can't even think. Your post is just so blatantly critical and hateful. Congrats if you were just trying to troll me - it worked.
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+ Show Spoiler +On May 05 2011 00:13 Sleight wrote:
So just to offer a perspective from BW for those who did not play.
Zerg was frequently cried as underpowered on iCCup and in these here ol' forums. Why? The Zerg mechanic meant that 150 apm players (such as myself) struggled to get above D, while we all knew 80 APM Protoss players around the C mark. Why? Accessing the annoyingly "OP" Protoss mechanics was way easier and Zerg's Muta response was stopped by the uneconomic and "bad" 2 cannons at every mineral line. It was incredibly frustrating because Zerg Overlords were even slower than SC2 Ovies, every race could wall off JUST as easy, they could Nexus first with even LESS concern.
Idra made the point that the difference was the myriad strategies Terran/Protoss has makes it a coinlip. But there was no one zerg build that stopped SairReaver, the Zealot with leg speed, DTs variants,etc. You got to Lair and tried to get your Hydra Den and before you got stomped or you went Spire and tried to make that work. Now the timings worked out so Zerg has a wider window in which to be reactive, but that doesn't change the game design, it allows a larger fudge factor.
So in similar principles, I would say, not that the scouting is an insurmountable problem, but that the 5-10s window to start Roach production is very unforgiving, as was the case in BW, and it took YEARS before Zergs could readily measure at the top level, let alone us peons. Modern BW Zerg is still evolving to handle this issue. Mech dominated forever and Queens are just finally widespread over a year after Mech began its reign.
It's a frustrating game at times, but I think we need to give it a chance to evolve.
So I gave a thoughtful response a dozen pages back and naturally it was the last one on a page and got overlooked so I quoted it above.
Day9's stance: Until EVERYTHING has been tried, it is presumptuous to say a thing is imbalanced, you obviously can't be 100% sure that a problem. Scouting is a problem now because we haven't figured out how to play Zerg in a more decisive manner that can handle multiple openings. This based on the YEARS of BW where Zerg had little success but then surged forward as the game evolved.
IdrA's stance: Whether or not it could be solved doesn't make it balanced. Balance should mean the races are more "even" in terms of abilities on the surface isntead of with a ton of extra work.
As I explain in the Quoted Text... this was NOT the case in BW.
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ultimately, idra is complaining about game design. he wants players to win within his own terms, hence, why he keeps saying "so-and-so lost even though he was the better player". it's hardly a balance issue (as both he and day 9 basically concluded with at the end of their argument).
i mean, he's been winning, yet he complains how he wins. he's found a way to win, so it hardly means zerg is UP to the point of unplayable. it is useless and all it does is take away the credibility of genuinely good terran and protoss players. that isn't a good thing as much as people think it is to cry about OPness. people shouldn't be looked down on just because they like to play races that aren't zerg.
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On May 05 2011 04:48 Ruscour wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2011 04:32 gnutz wrote:
JP DARE YOU TO EVER GET IDRA BACK ON THE SHOW
I now listened 45 minutes and i CAN'T stand his stupid bullshit anymore.
Hey, the Protosses even did what i suggested, said what they have trouble with. But they just got shut by Idra.
Then he says "We can talk after a Zerg wins a game" while he himself has won IPL.
It is just bad. A former Korean Brood War pro stomped a foreigner tournament and that disproves his argument? Not like he shut down the best SC2 strategic analyst in our community. It's clear you don't like him, but disprove his points. Go on. Day[9] couldn't.
What fucking point? Please explain this to me.
IdrA said the game is imbalanced because if you don't scout, you don't know what the opponent is doing, if you don't know, you can't defend, if you can't defend, you lose. Zerg can't scout therefor they lose.
At each step along the way, he'd have to prove that this is the case, okay, Zerg can't scout, Zerg can't scout so they can't defend, Zerg can't defend so they lose. Even with flipping a coin, you'd need to be amazingly lucky to have the kind of win percentages Zerg has as a race on average in tournaments.
Day9 was simply saying, "I disagree" which is perfectly fine because there is no fucking argument to counter, it was just venting. Just like an example I gave earlier where late game, Terran has a really hard time against Zerg unless they've been shitting on them all game in which case it can still look almost even. It's design, Zergs have a tough time against early aggression but it's made up for as the game progresses.
It's not A, B, C, Lose, it's not that simple. If it were, Zergs would need a fucking miracle to have a win rate within 1-2% of the other races like they do now.
Day9 said simply that you can't argue based on a "The better play should win every time" because all we have to go on for better player in specific instances is who wins. IdrA just has the mentality that, "I've played this game for X hours, I should never lose, if I lose the game is broken"... What is there to fucking argue?
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On May 05 2011 04:51 Yaotzin wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2011 04:50 Asparagus wrote:On May 05 2011 04:35 Yaotzin wrote:On May 05 2011 04:20 Asparagus wrote:
you're acting as if it's hard to scout a roach warren being built? your probe has free reign until the first set of longs pop, and if he 14/14's you have a specific window you know when the roach warren should be down, and with that window speed ain't even up, or the rush is so delayed that by the time he gets to your base you've already won. It's not like we have a wall or anything that prevents ground units from scouting our roach warren.
If he goes ling pop -> deny worker scout -> roach/speedling allin, and I don't have a cannon, I die.
what should i prepare for?
1 spine for potential early game pressure
OK like my cannon.
ling speed
roach warren for helions
baneling nest for marine stim push
You want this stuff anyway wtf. This is like me complaining I have research warp gates in case I get attacked, just silly.
debate whether to spend gas on roaches if he's just delaying for blueflame, or to bank it in case he pushes out with marines and I need banelings, or float 100 just in case I see him feign any aggression whatsoever and I need lair asap.
Yeah tough balance, that's Starcraft. If I warp in too many sentry/zealots and he's doing a big roach burrow allin guess what, I die.
your example: robo, you can skimp on static defense because you have forcefield,
I skimp on static defence because static defence is trash again Terran. I can't skimp on it against Zerg. I'd love to, but I can't.
and in ZvP you dictate what build we do, it's never been the other way around.
Bullshit. you are bad, i don't even know where to start with this. no zerg makes every unit early game, that's the dumbest thing I've ever heard, might as well get 4 queens while you're taking your fast 3rd and 4th so you're ready for everything right? What the hell are you talking about? Where did I say Zerg made every unit? What the hell?
you don't drop a roach warren, evo chamber, and a baneling nest blind within the first 7 minutes assuming you 14/14 because you A) have no army B) have shit econ C) are a horrible zerg.
p.s where are you getting the money to do all this?
constantly make drones
get a 2nd hatch up
tech
get gas for roaches or banelings
save enough for lair incase you need to macro
are you a wizard?
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On May 05 2011 04:54 ELA wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2011 04:51 dbosworld wrote:
Is it necessary Hydrox? All they need to do is post the podcast, everything else is located on this thread. I would agree with Hydrox.. Getting a hold of the MP3 is about impossible if you're using Chrome, for instance, since the pause/resume-trick dosn't work.. Also, no clickable link to the Blip.tv-vod, you have to select it and paste it into your browser.. I agree, it's no big deal or anything, but it's just the things that I notice when I try to listen/watch
I agree with the clickable link but yea, it wouldn't hurt.
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As a Protoss player and a Day[9] fanboy, I somewhat agreed with Idra and Day[9] looked extremely silly in that argument.
Idra clearly knew what he was talking about, but all Day could do was say (as Idra pointed out) "I disagree." Then he proceeded to not give any ideas to Idra to fix the balance issues he pointed out and I almost thought Idra was going to call him stupid, because quite frankly he was making a fool of himself. Even Tasteless agreed with Idra.
But then again, Tyler actually did bring up a great point that Protoss' also must take risks and if they don't capitalize on their decisions then they will lose. Protoss pros often lose games on a single bad decision even when they are ahead such as in IPL, Kiwikaki attacking Idra at 160 food not waiting to max. Idra was behind that game and, like he said, the only reason he won is because Kiwikaki didn't wait to max.
I didn't agree with him calling Naniwa, who is arguably the best foreign Protoss player right now, bad. That was uncalled for.
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On May 05 2011 03:47 travis wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2011 03:41 Asparagus wrote:On May 05 2011 03:31 travis wrote:On May 05 2011 03:25 WhiteDog wrote:On May 05 2011 03:21 travis wrote:
Random fact: most people are biased about the race they play. Even top pros! Yeah, and it's easier for you to state that fact rather than argue with anyone on balance. yeah, it is lol i remember talking to a friend of mine who is a good bw player, just started playing sc2 seriously he insists that terran is clearly the weakest race(he plays terran). IMMVP said terran is weakest too. apparently there are other top terrans who do too. [I think saying terran is the weakest is actually hilarious though] idra thinks zerg is the weakest. he's not the only top zerg who thinks so MC said he thought protoss was a little UP, right? I kinda think that too, though I am not a top pro. I play protoss. So my conclusion is, just listen to people who seriously analyze the game but aren't invested in a race. People like day9. Other than that, look at statistics from higher level tournaments. Everything else is biased as shit and worthless I didn't even watch this episode btw. But I am going to because I heard it's a good watch. you throw idra's credentials out the window with this statement like he's some diamond who doesn't know any more about the metagame than anyone else, and what comes out of his mouth hold no water, nevermind the fact that he's the most accomplished member on SotG currently. mvp never got as specific as IdrA has in terms of actually backing up why he thinks his specific race is UP. *edit* but whatever, he's just some code-s nobody who bitches too much right? I am sure idra has great reasons as to what is hard about zerg. You think MC or IMMVP can't list some reasons as to why protoss and terran are hard? It's not very difficult to come up with complaints about what you think isn't fair about your race. And guess what, a lot of people who play your same race are going to identify with it and agree with you.
This. Balance isn't about races not having weaknesses, it's about races having varieties of strengths and weaknesses which ultimately leave them at around even with any other race.
Consider the big weaknesses of Zerg. Lack of effective early scouting, lack of early aggression options beyond the coinflip all-ins or the two-base Kyrix, and cost-ineffective units in late-game scenarios (moreso versus P than T). None of those is actually a crippling, game-breaking weakness, and they are compensated by other strengths: excellent scouting abilities once you get ovie speed or seers, a period between spire tech/zerg's third and the endgame where Zerg has total map control and every option for harassment and aggression becomes very risky for P/T, and superior macro mechanics that scale as you add more bases, which allows Zerg, in theory, to overwhelm its opponents with waves of less efficient units.
More specifically, the scouting problem is counteracted by the fact that scouting a one-base Terran or Protoss automatically means a few things. One, they need to be aggressive in some capacity, so you can expect either a push or some kind of tech. Two, while they be hiding a first expo in-base in the case of Terran, they are very unlikely to be rushing for a third, the most effective counter to a properly turtled Zerg. That means as Zerg you only need to consider a handful of options, and while no build beats all of them, you can account for MOST of them with a Spanishiwa style defense. The style of play that demolishes that defense is exploiting Zerg's passivity with a fast third, but if you've scouted them staying on one base then you know thats rather unlikely. Accounting for cloaked units can be hard, but all you need to check for any "tech" aggression is the double-gas, and if you can't scout that then your overlords are mentally deficient. My main point is that one-base situations are risky for both the T/P and the Zerg, not the Zerg only. They're often coinflips, and coinflips work both ways. Any two-base all-in play should hit after you've got lair tech, and so you shouldn't have problems scouting it. The cancel-nexus build is, I'll admit, highly abusive of Zergs early scouting deficiencies, but hopefully the warp gate nerf forthcoming will help Zerg overcome that.
On the point of cost-efficiency, I'll also cede that the Protoss deathball is perhaps too cost-efficient, as the discrepancy between Zerg and Protoss units in the lategame is overwhelming to the point that nothing short of perfect composition and control really helps. But all that means is that the onus is on Zerg to capitalize on its period of mid to early late game map dominance. No, that aggression won't always work, as Idra/Kiwikaki demonstrates. But nothing in Starcraft is guaranteed. Tyler mentioned a few SOTGs ago that people tend to think of defending as easy, but thats far from true; that a P or T manages to thwart your attempts at aggression is no more imbalanced than a Zerg shutting down an attempted banshee harass. When a Zerg fails to capitalize on its midgame advantage, thats more imperfect play than imbalance.
I know that was very theorycrafty. But I hate when people make ridiculous generalizations, like when Idra says "Zerg can't scout" or "Zerg can't beat Protoss lategame" without taking into account the broader context or considering the relative strengths and weaknesses of all races through all of 'standard play". It's intellectually lazy and dishonest, more a product of frustration than of understanding. I'm not claiming Idra doesn't have a very high understanding of the game, because his understanding is as good as anyone currently alive. But knowledge combined with bias, and especially with frustration, is a dangerous thing; he's in a uniquely qualified position to comment on balance due to his incredible experience, and uses that position for ill rather than good by mentioning and discussing only the evidence that fits his views.
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Gahh it was rough listening to all the tension and arguments on this episode, but I was so relieved to hear it all end on a humorous note! 
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The whole IdrA and Day[9] debate was meaningless, makes me sad that people think IdrA talking loud and creating an uncomfortable interrogative form of discussion means that he's making a point. All Sean tried to convey was that he found any sort of balance discussion useless and that if he were to go down that path it would be in the form of a calm drawn-out discussion, which he hinted at was impossible since IdrA cannot separate his emotions from balance talk.
IdrA simply can't be down to earth and talk about the game for what it is, his remarks are always infused with anger and frustration making it impossible to argue with him on a non-personal level. The game he's playing professionally is ridiculous, all Protoss players are ridiculous, all Terran players are ridiculous, he tells people on a daily basis that they're ridiculous, when he wins it's because of his skills overcoming an impossibly large disadvantage and his opponent sucking, when he loses it was because his opponent played an overpowered race and was doing an abusive risky all-in that paid off because Zerg can't scout. It's an irrational construction in which IdrA conveniently can do no wrong and points his finger from atop his pedestal of victimized judgment.
Tyler, InControl and Day[9] all realize it's pointless to discuss SC2's balance with a friend that is so invested in withdrawing any responsibility for his ingame performance, especially when any attempt to contest those views is perceived as hostile and met with a condescending tone. What do you say to someone that believes he is so superior that he shouldn't be able to lose a game and revolves all his logic around proving that point? What do you say to someone who talks in absolutes, like "I can't scout", "I can't win", "I've tried everything? I know there's plenty of people who see IdrA's extremism as straightforward and a form of pure truth, but is it really? Are things said in frustration really the truth? Or are they moments in which you give in to your feelings of unfairness and accept them as truth? Do people really feel that being emotional and vocal is a good foundation to take a clean look at a game's balance? Was that time you told your parents you hated their guts really a moment of unblemished truth? Or was it a moment in which you got caught up in the emotion and didn't want to believe there was any other truth?
Basically, I'm tired of everyone taking IdrA's irrational ranting so seriously, he just won the IPL one-sidedly stomping everyone and even leaving undecided games for no apparent reason. Ofcourse he's quick to defend himself by saying SeleCt and KiWiKaKi suck, but what does this prove besides the fact that he will by any means necessary justify his beliefs of Zerg being underpowered ?
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Day9 is not a pro player, he's a commentator, unlike for Idra there's no reason for him to try and come up with ideas for Zerg. Nevermind Idra never even made a clear argument, he was just stating his thoughts on the game without anything actually supporting it. You can't just say "OMG I can't scout his base because of marines so I lose!"
The sad thing is Idra is so into this 'zerg is UP' thing I don't think he'll ever be able to get out of it, it's rather hard to accept you're wrong after you thought you were right for so long.
Oh and btw, from what I've heard (never played BW), idra was B-level in iCCup while day9 was A. Says it all.
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On May 05 2011 04:56 Asparagus wrote:
you don't drop a roach warren, evo chamber, and a baneling nest blind within the first 7 minutes assuming you 14/14 because you A) have no army B) have shit econ C) are a horrible zerg.
a) I never mentioned an evo chamber
b) I never mentioned 7 minutes
c) Try not to read everything so literally. Complaining that you have to make bloody speedlings and a baneling nest against Terran is nonsensical. Those are the core units you use to kill him. Of course you're going to get them.
p.s where are you getting the money to do all this?
constantly make drones
get a 2nd hatch up
tech
get gas for roaches or banelings
save enough for lair incase you need to macro
are you a wizard?
Dunno you should know, you're the one who's good at making shit up.
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EPT
