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smallerk
897 Posts
On May 05 2011 05:31 Hipster wrote: UH what? IdrA was A+, he was arguably the best scbw foreign player man. Yeah, reading posts like that, some guy just blindly defending day9 for no reason (because noone needs defending whatsoever) really makes me a sad panda, so many people dont deserve what is given to them by these amazing players/figures of the esports community. | ||
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karpo
Sweden1998 Posts
"EG and Liquid had problem finding a compromise that worked for both the Master's Cup and the korean Liquid players, so team liquid decided to decline the invitation for this tournament." Or make a disclaimer saying that you don't speak for TL but from what you know this-or-that lead to the decision. Seems like we get alot of posts that can be read in different ways, causing unneeded drama. Posting just "we invited them, they declined" is not the most professional way of handling the situation and it kinda lays the blame on TL. It also leads to speculation and people coming to stupid conclusions without knowing the full story. I guess everyone will learn and stuff like this will be less frequent as the sport grows. | ||
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Severedevil
United States4839 Posts
On May 05 2011 05:28 TheGreenBee wrote: I'd like to see the speed at which your one hatch and one queen produce drones and units at the same time and then still keep up with T/P's macro. I don't understand what you're arguing. A one-hatchery Zerg can spend his entire income on fighting units. A one-hatchery Zerg has no need to pump drones since a one-hatchery Zerg has no access to additional patches/geysers anyway. (Presuming that you're at least semi-saturated.) A Zerg goes up to two hatcheries if they want to expand their economy past one base. A Zerg is NOT forced to build a second hatchery for purposes of production. You don't have the $$$ to feed that production unless you expand (or you're only building Zerglings). | ||
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joshboy42
Australia116 Posts
On May 05 2011 05:35 Yaotzin wrote: I know, that's why I asked what level his Zerg was. Since people were comparing him to Day9. Wondering who had the better Zerg. I fail to see your point, you've successfully deduced that day9 was better at his main race then idra was at his offrace? Congratulations, you've just contributed nothing to the discussion | ||
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FeyFey
Germany10114 Posts
What i dislike the most about this situation is, that this will start over again 2 times more, because there will be 2 expansions. And in bw units where thrown in to spice up the parts where the races where weak. And it was no slight strengthening. It was super power conters, with extras. I kinda fear the introduction of units like corsairs (that can just completly destroy zerg early game together with dts and late game just shut down complete armys with their skill) But i really hope they will just implent some killer units. I want my 1/3 of the zerg army dies before it even engages the terran army back ^.^ (and still is able to win). Right now it looks more like tanks waste their shots on a few light units that just laugh and then the tanks kill themself with friendly fire, if you don't have more vision then shot range all the time. (well it looks like 1/3 if the target the baneling blob, but i fear the day when zergs will split up their baneling blobs xD ). For the idra thing, i always thought he was more the pro that can refine a strat to perfection, but not likely to invent one himself, though it was my bw impression. And i didn't followed him much after the stuff he said in the beta. But i guess if a game is new you are better of with creativity rather then being a walking database. Still, its not over 2 expansions to come with new units and lots of lots of imba shouts ! | ||
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Jayrod
1820 Posts
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Dystisis
Norway713 Posts
On May 05 2011 05:18 TheGreenBee wrote: Where did Colbi lie? - He stated EG invited Liquid. - He stated Liquid chose not to participate Both are true statements, so where are those lies you are talking about? But there is also the connotation that what you happen to say, and choose not to say, carries in any context of an uttering, which is what people are talking about. Relevance. For example, I can make another post here and simply say "Some elephants eat grass". This may indeed be true, but it is still a god damn dumb post. More to the point, I could make a post announcing a tournament on the SC2 forum and say that it has a $9000 prize pool, which (hypotethically) would be true, but disingeniously not mention that it's a chess tournament. | ||
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Baarn
United States2702 Posts
On May 05 2011 05:39 smallerk wrote: Yeah, reading posts like that, some guy just blindly defending day9 for no reason (because noone needs defending whatsoever) really makes me a sad panda, so many people dont deserve what is given to them by these amazing players/figures of the esports community. What's sadder is people have this premise that Day9 not getting into a balance discussion is wrong or a sign of weakness. The whole point of his show is to explore new ideas and learn the game through trying different approaches to solve a build/problem. With that in mind it's really not benefiting Day9 to engage in such discussion when it's obvious he rather overcome an obstacle than to bitch about it. You think he'd be so popular if he had the day9 (insert race here)Is OP show? | ||
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Yaotzin
South Africa4280 Posts
On May 05 2011 05:44 joshboy42 wrote: I fail to see your point, you've successfully deduced that day9 was better at his main race then idra was at his offrace? Congratulations, you've just contributed nothing to the discussion It was a question. It had no point. I was simply curious. Don't read so much into such a simple thing. | ||
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Pekkz
Norway1505 Posts
First it was: "use more nydus" Then it was: "More infestors" Now : "more spanishiwa style" Whats next? Im afraid we are gonna have to hit HotS before zerg gets fixed. | ||
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hugman
Sweden4644 Posts
On May 05 2011 05:43 Severedevil wrote: I don't understand what you're arguing. A one-hatchery Zerg can spend his entire income on fighting units. A one-hatchery Zerg has no need to pump drones since a one-hatchery Zerg has no access to additional patches/geysers anyway. (Presuming that you're at least semi-saturated.) Have you ever played Zerg? The amount of units you can produce from one hatch can't do anything against a walled off Terran or Protoss. One base Zerg = L O L | ||
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KristianJS
2107 Posts
Idra's fundamental point was: Zerg can't scout and there's no build that counters everything, so at best you're reduced to flipping coins when guessing what build the opponent is doing. It's a perfectly simple, understandable argument. Day9 was saying stuff like "I think there are a lot of things not explored" but that doesn't even make any difference, zerg would just have more possible coinflips to respond with at most. He had no meaningful counter. I guess it comes down to whether or not the claim that zerg can't scout is completely true. And well, I'm inclined to believe Idra since he is one of the best zergs in the world.... | ||
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Mordiford
4448 Posts
On May 05 2011 05:49 Pekkz wrote: Day9 had a chance to explain why zerg isnt underpowerd early/mid, but he had no arguements. Idra could come up with a bunch after eachother, and it was only day9 that seemed to disagree. However he couldnt come up with anything to say cus it would take too much time to explain? First it was: "use more nydus" Then it was: "More infestors" Now : "more spanishiwa style" Whats next? Im afraid we are gonna have to hit HotS before zerg gets fixed. It's an oversimplified situation, and it's largely only early game. A good Zerg should be taking map control mid game from what I've seen. Zerg has some minor issues with early aggression that requires them to play defensively to stay in the game, this pays off later where their late game is really strong. IdrA had this long run-on where he highlighted like 10 weakness Zerg has without mentioning any strength that makes up for it, you could do the same for any race and make it sound like it should be impossible to win, which is what he does constantly for Zerg. Basically, he wants and easy way to defend early while still ignoring the advantages you have as a Zerg as the game progresses, particularly when you get into late game against Terran. He does this consistently, when it's an issue his race has to overcome, it's the game's fault, when it's something an opposing race has issues with, it's because they're bad. | ||
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corpuscle
United States1967 Posts
A one-hatchery Zerg can spend his entire income on fighting units. A one-hatchery Zerg has no need to pump drones since a one-hatchery Zerg has no access to additional patches/geysers anyway. (Presuming that you're at least semi-saturated.) A Zerg goes up to two hatcheries if they want to expand their economy past one base. A Zerg is NOT forced to build a second hatchery for purposes of production. You don't have the $$$ to feed that production unless you expand (or you're only building Zerglings). A one-base Zerg can't hold off any sort of early aggression (4gate, 3rax, etc.) because you simply won't have enough units. A Zerg that opened one-base will lose in the mid-late game if their opponent was nice enough to not kill them early on. It's pretty much the most accepted fact of Zerg play that you need to be one base ahead of your opponent at all times, the race simply isn't designed to be able to deal with T or P on equal bases. I'm not going to comment on the balance bullshit (though I am currently switching from Zerg to Protoss, wonder why), and you really shouldn't either, because you clearly don't have a strong idea of what Zerg players are dealing with. | ||
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Defacer
Canada5052 Posts
On May 05 2011 05:38 Guvna wrote: If we're going to break it down to it's basic form, then yes, Colbi stated facts that Liquid chose not to participate. Tyler also stated facts that EG chose not to accommodate Liquid. Then Colbi went into what Liquid wanted (which Tyler was stating on the show is what he would have liked in the first place), even though iNcontrol and Idra were saying Colbi was only giving a neutered response. The whole thing is stupid. I think Tyler felt like Colbi's initial response made Liquid look arrogant and condescending that they chose not to participate. If it wasn't intended, it sure came off that way to me. In any case, it will be a great event still, people are still friends, the situation just blew up with the giant audience viewing it. You know how team officials of major sports teams, movie executives, and almost every other industry avoids discussing the details of negotiations in public? This is exactly why. In a public forum, there is an urge for both parties to posture, become unreasonable, and basically embarass themselves. Everyone ends up risking more credibility than is warranted to settle issues, even if they're minor. | ||
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Mordiford
4448 Posts
On May 05 2011 05:52 KristianJS wrote: I have to say, listening to the argument between Idra and Day9, Idra was completely convincing and Day9 had no real counter. Idra's fundamental point was: Zerg can't scout and there's no build that counters everything, so at best you're reduced to flipping coins when guessing what build the opponent is doing. It's a perfectly simple, understandable argument. Day9 was saying stuff like "I think there are a lot of things not explored" but that doesn't even make any difference, zerg would just have more possible coinflips to respond with at most. He had no meaningful counter. I guess it comes down to whether or not the claim that zerg can't scout is completely true. And well, I'm inclined to believe Idra since he is one of the best zergs in the world.... I'm inclined to believe that since IdrA plays Zerg, he's biased as fuck. Are you also inclined to believe that Terran is the weakest race because the best Terran in the world said so? Seriously, even if you can't scout completely, you can take a safe bet that'll give you minor economic setback, other races do it too from time to time. | ||
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Soap
Brazil1546 Posts
Zerg don't have many good players. This game is less than an year old and someone managed to switch from terran and become top 5 zerg in the world sans Korea, there are new players in the rise, I have to concur that this balance discussion is just silly and leads to nothing but Blizzard going back and forth with the game under "pro players" blessings. See how BW pro players solve "imbalances": http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=217470. Just less humorously, perhaps. kekekeke | ||
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Executor1
1353 Posts
On May 05 2011 05:04 Saechiis wrote: The whole IdrA and Day[9] debate was meaningless, makes me sad that people think IdrA talking loud and creating an uncomfortable interrogative form of discussion means that he's making a point. All Sean tried to convey was that he found any sort of balance discussion useless and that if he were to go down that path it would be in the form of a calm drawn-out discussion, which he hinted at was impossible since IdrA cannot separate his emotions from balance talk. IdrA simply can't be down to earth and talk about the game for what it is, his remarks are always infused with anger and frustration making it impossible to argue with him on a non-personal level. The game he's playing professionally is ridiculous, all Protoss players are ridiculous, all Terran players are ridiculous, he tells people on a daily basis that they're ridiculous, when he wins it's because of his skills overcoming an impossibly large disadvantage and his opponent sucking, when he loses it was because his opponent played an overpowered race and was doing an abusive risky all-in that paid off because Zerg can't scout. It's an irrational construction in which IdrA conveniently can do no wrong and points his finger from atop his pedestal of victimized judgment. Tyler, InControl and Day[9] all realize it's pointless to discuss SC2's balance with a friend that is so invested in withdrawing any responsibility for his ingame performance, especially when any attempt to contest those views is perceived as hostile and met with a condescending tone. What do you say to someone that believes he is so superior that he shouldn't be able to lose a game and revolves all his logic around proving that point? What do you say to someone who talks in absolutes, like "I can't scout", "I can't win", "I've tried everything? I know there's plenty of people who see IdrA's extremism as straightforward and a form of pure truth, but is it really? Are things said in frustration really the truth? Or are they moments in which you give in to your feelings of unfairness and accept them as truth? Do people really feel that being emotional and vocal is a good foundation to take a clean look at a game's balance? Was that time you told your parents you hated their guts really a moment of unblemished truth? Or was it a moment in which you got caught up in the emotion and didn't want to believe there was any other truth? Basically, I'm tired of everyone taking IdrA's irrational ranting so seriously, he just won the IPL one-sidedly stomping everyone and even leaving undecided games for no apparent reason. Ofcourse he's quick to defend himself by saying SeleCt and KiWiKaKi suck, but what does this prove besides the fact that he will by any means necessary justify his beliefs of Zerg being underpowered ? This is such a good post it describes exactly why it is pointless to even argue with idra. All of his oppinions on zerg stem from experience yes, but mixed with frusteration as you say can be very dangerous, i doubt playing with the best players in korea helped much either as he now just assumes everyone in NA/EU is shit except for him and if he loses its because of imbalance not because he got outplayed. Its some of the most frusterating shit to listen to(probably not for zergs , anyone playing any race would love to hear that the reason they are losing is not because they got outplayed but rather because the game is imbalanced and they should take no responsiblity for their losses) i think thats why so many zergs take what he says to be the truth because its the easy way. | ||
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Yaotzin
South Africa4280 Posts
On May 05 2011 05:57 corpuscle wrote: A one-base Zerg can't hold off any sort of early aggression (4gate, 3rax, etc.) because you simply won't have enough units. Why? Early aggro comes before the economic advantage of an expo kicks in. There is no other reason to build more hatcheries as Zerg. You can spend all your money with 1hatch+queen, unless you're going 100% ling. It's pretty much the most accepted fact of Zerg play that you need to be one base ahead of your opponent at all times, the race simply isn't designed to be able to deal with T or P on equal bases. No, this is something from BW that is repeated for SC2 for some dumb reason. It's still true to a small degree, but it is nothing like it was in BW. Queens have completely changed the number of hatcheries a Zerg required for production. | ||
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TheTenthDoc
United States9561 Posts
Did I say IdrA was B level? No. That was someone else. I was saying that Day9 was still very good at BW...and might have succeeded in Korea. But we'll never know. | ||
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