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On May 05 2011 03:31 travis wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2011 03:25 WhiteDog wrote:On May 05 2011 03:21 travis wrote:
Random fact: most people are biased about the race they play. Even top pros! Yeah, and it's easier for you to state that fact rather than argue with anyone on balance. yeah, it is lol i remember talking to a friend of mine who is a good bw player, just started playing sc2 seriously he insists that terran is clearly the weakest race(he plays terran). IMMVP said terran is weakest too. apparently there are other top terrans who do too. [I think saying terran is the weakest is actually hilarious though] idra thinks zerg is the weakest. he's not the only top zerg who thinks so MC said he thought protoss was a little UP, right? I kinda think that too, though I am not a top pro. I play protoss. So my conclusion is, just listen to people who seriously analyze the game but aren't invested in a race. People like day9. Other than that, look at statistics from higher level tournaments. Everything else is biased as shit and worthless I didn't even watch this episode btw. But I am going to because I heard it's a good watch.
I feel the exact same way, everyone will have biased based upon there own race, and although they may still at times have a good point to there arguments, the fact is that every single person has the same two cents to put into the discussion about there specific race/problems. You summed it up well, listening to those outside of the competitive arena like Day is best imo because otherwise your getting worthless complaining.
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On May 05 2011 03:33 akomatic wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2011 03:16 Lomak wrote:On May 05 2011 03:13 danson wrote:
holy crap jp you gotta mod the show and not let topics like that drag on forever... had to turn off the show cause of sean and greg arguing. If you don't enjoy the heated debates about controversial topics on the show called "State of the game" then maybe you are watching the wrong fucking program. I'd suggest someone of your mental capacity go check out the show "jersey shore" seems right up your alley bro. I counted the argument as a loss by Idra the moment he went into a heated, simplistic rant about early game ZvT. It's a waste of time to discuss the "b" word without a large commitment of time, hundreds of replays, and a large dataset. If you can be lead to believe that zerg is imbalanced from intuition and hashing of a few cherry-picked facts, then you can be lead to believe anything. Like danson and Tasteless, I just tuned out and switched tabs when they started chasing eachother's tail. And don't remind people that our country makes shows like Jersey Shore and that people watch them.
You can count it as whatever the fuck you please, I could care a less. The fact that the conversation took place is what is key. It really doesnt matter if you agree or disagree with the points made by Idra, because even though he vented (of course) he made a lot of valid, concise points.
If your too stupid to filter the bullshit from the rest than that is your own problem. That conversation had a lot of information for those of us that are budding students of this game called starcraft 2. I as a zerg player (BIASED OMG) agree with all the points he made about zerg's early game, and how it comes down to just making a guess, and hoping you fucking guessed right in order to just be ON EVEN KEEL with your opponent.
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On May 05 2011 03:30 Ohmboy wrote:I'm watching the vod of ep. 37 right now and I just got to the part where Geoff just attacked Tyler's sponsorship with Stride gum. That was pretty immature, regardless of the debate at hand, IMO. Basically Geoff trying to bait Tyler into saying that he doesn't like his sponsor's product. Geoff you make me sad sometimes 
This is actually completely untrue. You missed the whole point of what Geoff was trying to do. He applied Tyler's line of thinking to Tyler's own sponsorship to show that Tyler didn't have a clue what he was talking about
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On May 05 2011 03:30 SKtheAnathema wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2011 03:19 Cathasaigh wrote:On May 05 2011 03:11 SKtheAnathema wrote:
whether the races are imbalanced or not, i have to side with day9's response of "it just isn't useful" to say the stuff idra is saying, especially when he keeps saying "i lose even when i'm the better player."
well, if idra is smart, he'd play protoss or terran and have a 100% win rate against people he shouldn't lose to. the end. he's just admitting he's making a bad career move in playing zerg.
but then again, if he played toss/terran, he'd have no more excuses for losing :\ Or if you actually listened to the numerous times idra has been asked why he doesn't just switch races you would know that he's already said he enjoys zerg the most, balance changes will come eventually, and that the amount of time it takes to switch races isn't worth it anyways cause it would mean that he would suck ass for a couple months while learning a new race (that he likes less than zerg) whether it's easy or not. lol, so knowing how idra is, lemme ask you which is more likely: idra will cry about losing regardless of race or idra "enjoys zerg" (aka enjoys losing for now), believes balance patches will eventually favor him and he'll no longer lose to people "he's better than", and that it'll actually take a godly player like idra to learn easy-mode terran/toss in less than the time it'll take for zerg to be properly balanced? either way, crying about it still isn't useful.
So basically you want to be a smart ass and give 2 stupid scenarios instead of the scenario I JUST gave you that is from him. As a race he enjoys zerg the most, balance changes will come eventually because blizzard is releasing patches, and there is no reason to waste 2 months learning a new race that he doesn't like as much as zerg anyways. So since that is what he said how about I think that is most likely instead of the random stuff you say because you feel like being on the lolidraonlywhines bandwagon. Ever consider that idra speaks his mind because he sees these things as serious flaws and doesn't mind saying what he thinks instead of just shutting up and he's not just whining for the sake of whining?
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On May 05 2011 03:37 Lomak wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2011 03:33 akomatic wrote:On May 05 2011 03:16 Lomak wrote:On May 05 2011 03:13 danson wrote:
holy crap jp you gotta mod the show and not let topics like that drag on forever... had to turn off the show cause of sean and greg arguing. If you don't enjoy the heated debates about controversial topics on the show called "State of the game" then maybe you are watching the wrong fucking program. I'd suggest someone of your mental capacity go check out the show "jersey shore" seems right up your alley bro. I counted the argument as a loss by Idra the moment he went into a heated, simplistic rant about early game ZvT. It's a waste of time to discuss the "b" word without a large commitment of time, hundreds of replays, and a large dataset. If you can be lead to believe that zerg is imbalanced from intuition and hashing of a few cherry-picked facts, then you can be lead to believe anything. Like danson and Tasteless, I just tuned out and switched tabs when they started chasing eachother's tail. And don't remind people that our country makes shows like Jersey Shore and that people watch them. You can count it as whatever the fuck you please, I could care a less. The fact that the conversation took place is what is key. It really doesnt matter if you agree or disagree with the points made by Idra, because even though he vented (of course) he made a lot of valid, concise points. If your too stupid to filter the bullshit from the rest than that is your own problem. That conversation had a lot of information for those of us that are budding students of this game called starcraft 2. I as a zerg player (BIASED OMG) agree with all the points he made about zerg's early game, and how it comes down to just making a guess, and hoping you fucking guessed right in order to just be ON EVEN KEEL with your opponent.
I'll also be tabbing out of this argument. See ya.
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Northern Ireland2557 Posts
On May 05 2011 03:35 FrankWalls wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2011 03:30 Ohmboy wrote:I'm watching the vod of ep. 37 right now and I just got to the part where Geoff just attacked Tyler's sponsorship with Stride gum. That was pretty immature, regardless of the debate at hand, IMO. Basically Geoff trying to bait Tyler into saying that he doesn't like his sponsor's product. Geoff you make me sad sometimes he was on the debate team man, he shows no mercy!
if by no mercy you mean manipulation and ad hominem attacks, sure
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On May 05 2011 03:31 travis wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2011 03:25 WhiteDog wrote:On May 05 2011 03:21 travis wrote:
Random fact: most people are biased about the race they play. Even top pros! Yeah, and it's easier for you to state that fact rather than argue with anyone on balance. yeah, it is lol i remember talking to a friend of mine who is a good bw player, just started playing sc2 seriously he insists that terran is clearly the weakest race(he plays terran). IMMVP said terran is weakest too. apparently there are other top terrans who do too. [I think saying terran is the weakest is actually hilarious though] idra thinks zerg is the weakest. he's not the only top zerg who thinks so MC said he thought protoss was a little UP, right? I kinda think that too, though I am not a top pro. I play protoss. So my conclusion is, just listen to people who seriously analyze the game but aren't invested in a race. People like day9. Other than that, look at statistics from higher level tournaments. Everything else is biased as shit and worthless I didn't even watch this episode btw. But I am going to because I heard it's a good watch.
you throw idra's credentials out the window with this statement like he's some diamond who doesn't know any more about the metagame than anyone else, and what comes out of his mouth hold no water, nevermind the fact that he's the most accomplished member on SotG currently.
mvp never got as specific as IdrA has in terms of actually backing up why he thinks his specific race is UP.
*edit* but whatever, he's just some code-s nobody who bitches too much right?
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On May 05 2011 03:14 -_- wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2011 02:26 Chicane wrote:On May 04 2011 23:59 -_- wrote:
Just listened to SoTG. Heard the argument between Nony and Incontrol. Completely agree with Nony. Can't stand this ridiculous PR in SC2. I hope SC2 crashes so all this fucking suits get the fuck out Starcraft. Hate EG. Hate dumb sponsors. Hate stupid tournaments Hate dumb, bland posts. Hate coaching. Hate people trying to make money. Pathetic. Hahaha wow you seem very naive. I don't even know where to begin or if I even should... unless you were just being overly sarcastic to prove a point. In case you're not... (incoming sarcasm) ya I'm sure SC2 would be much better if we just had no tournaments with a relevant amount of money or sponsors whatsoever. We should all just go back to playing on our own, and trolling each other because who cares about our self image or moving forward as a community right? I'm not naive. If I was, you'd see me posting "cool tourneys GUYS LOVE YA," "steelseries mouses are the best sooooo sick," "gotta love how esports is growing!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!," "gunner glasses reaally took my game to the next level, bronze to gm np." You should change your signature from "Sufficiently advanced stupidity is indistinguishable from trolling." to "When I don't understand something, but vaguely feel like I should insult someone, I accuse them of trolling!"
You're only proving it correct even more.
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On May 05 2011 03:17 Mordiford wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2011 03:07 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On May 05 2011 03:02 flowSthead wrote:On May 05 2011 02:58 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On May 05 2011 01:44 ridonkulous wrote:On May 05 2011 01:41 dark14cs wrote:On May 05 2011 01:35 zs3000 wrote:On May 05 2011 01:31 dark14cs wrote:
That last SOTG made me lose respect for Sean. They should have Idra on every show and also a Terran representative. You realize Idra whole arguement was "I know everything, there's nothing else to ever know about anything ever" Your right, terrible guy. I tend to give more weight to the person who plays the game for a living rather than a professional commentator. you do realize that this guy to this day claims tvp in bw is imba despite of flash owning everyone with stunning 72% winrate ?why taking him serious when u have much better sc2 players (in bw too) like mc or mvp saying totaly different things? You're committing a logical fallacy known as "poisoning the well", which is essentially just a special form of ad hominem (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poisoning_the_well). While it could very well be true that IdrA has whined a lot in the past, that doesn't automatically mean that a new statement he brings up is necessarily wrong. His past claims don't falsify his new one. This whole "crying wolf" thing doesn't hold true in logic. His reputation as a biased QQer doesn't make him wrong about everything he ever says ever again. Whether or not you agree with IdrA, don't write him off before even listening to his arguments. IdrA named a series of specific problems (to which Day[9] didn't deny, but didn't have an answer to either), and Day[9] was just... silent, or said that it was too early to tell. Yeah, SC2 is young, and yeah, IdrA whines a lot, but there were literally zero plausible suggestions or recommendations. And when you've tried everything (and I'm sure IdrA has- how many different options does Zerg have for scouting against a wall in the early game?), it doesn't matter how old a game is. IdrA brought up good points about how a Zerg needs to be prepared (in the dark) for a lot more than a Terran or Protoss does- and I'm a Protoss player. And a Day[9] fanboy. lol. Kinda made me sad to see Day[9] seem human and not godly, but IdrA clearly made his case. I completely agree with you, but let's not pretend that Idra did not commit logical fallacies as well. I have no issue with Idra's past as a whiner, but I do have issue with him using logical fallacies when he is arguing with Day9. I mean just as an example, when Day9 was asking to look at specific games, he was doing so because there are other possible reasons besides imbalance that a person lost. Having not seen the games Idra is talking about, it would be difficult for Day9 to make a credible point. Idra completely ignored this and acted like Day9 couldn't provide an answer because there was not one (and in Idra's defense, he probably did so to boost the viewer numbers). I definitely agree that people can lose games for reasons other than imbalance, but I don't think IdrA's remarks about inherent disadvantages and design flaws (like an inability for a Zerg to scout when a Terran or Protoss has a wall up and a marine or stalker out, patrolling the perimeter of the base for overlords) was laced with fallacious reasoning- and it was there where IdrA scored points with me... especially when Day[9] was silent (and almost rightfully so, because I thought IdrA was pretty much correct too). I brought up the example of how the game can become kind of a cluster-fuck for Terran as in the late game, Zerg can make a fast tech switch and leave the Terran scrambling to readjust their unit composition and with some unit compositions being outright ridiculous to deal with as Terran such as the Brood Lord, Corrupter, Infestor play.
A maxed out Zerg with all the tech paths open plus some money banked has an advantage over a maxed Terran, similar to how a maxed Protoss laughs at a maxed Zerg, but not to the same degree. Terrans need to do damage and can't let the Zerg sit back and do what they want, but Terran has the tools to do this. In ZvP Zerg has nowhere near the same kind of possibility to slow down the Protoss. Not only do Zergs have worse tools, but Protoss can sit on 3-base whereas a Zerg needs to take 4-5 bases to get to the kind of situation we're talking about.
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On May 05 2011 03:41 Asparagus wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2011 03:31 travis wrote:On May 05 2011 03:25 WhiteDog wrote:On May 05 2011 03:21 travis wrote:
Random fact: most people are biased about the race they play. Even top pros! Yeah, and it's easier for you to state that fact rather than argue with anyone on balance. yeah, it is lol i remember talking to a friend of mine who is a good bw player, just started playing sc2 seriously he insists that terran is clearly the weakest race(he plays terran). IMMVP said terran is weakest too. apparently there are other top terrans who do too. [I think saying terran is the weakest is actually hilarious though] idra thinks zerg is the weakest. he's not the only top zerg who thinks so MC said he thought protoss was a little UP, right? I kinda think that too, though I am not a top pro. I play protoss. So my conclusion is, just listen to people who seriously analyze the game but aren't invested in a race. People like day9. Other than that, look at statistics from higher level tournaments. Everything else is biased as shit and worthless I didn't even watch this episode btw. But I am going to because I heard it's a good watch. you throw idra's credentials out the window with this statement like he's some diamond who doesn't know any more about the metagame than anyone else, and what comes out of his mouth hold no water, nevermind the fact that he's the most accomplished member on SotG currently. mvp never got as specific as IdrA has in terms of actually backing up why he thinks his specific race is UP. *edit* but whatever, he's just some code-s nobody who bitches too much right?
I am sure idra has great reasons as to what is hard about zerg. You think MC or IMMVP can't list some reasons as to why protoss and terran are hard? It's not very difficult to come up with complaints about what you think isn't fair about your race. And guess what, a lot of people who play your same race are going to identify with it and agree with you.
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On May 05 2011 03:37 Lomak wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2011 03:33 akomatic wrote:On May 05 2011 03:16 Lomak wrote:On May 05 2011 03:13 danson wrote:
holy crap jp you gotta mod the show and not let topics like that drag on forever... had to turn off the show cause of sean and greg arguing. If you don't enjoy the heated debates about controversial topics on the show called "State of the game" then maybe you are watching the wrong fucking program. I'd suggest someone of your mental capacity go check out the show "jersey shore" seems right up your alley bro. I counted the argument as a loss by Idra the moment he went into a heated, simplistic rant about early game ZvT. It's a waste of time to discuss the "b" word without a large commitment of time, hundreds of replays, and a large dataset. If you can be lead to believe that zerg is imbalanced from intuition and hashing of a few cherry-picked facts, then you can be lead to believe anything. Like danson and Tasteless, I just tuned out and switched tabs when they started chasing eachother's tail. And don't remind people that our country makes shows like Jersey Shore and that people watch them. You can count it as whatever the fuck you please, I could care a less. The fact that the conversation took place is what is key. It really doesnt matter if you agree or disagree with the points made by Idra, because even though he vented (of course) he made a lot of valid, concise points. If your too stupid to filter the bullshit from the rest than that is your own problem. That conversation had a lot of information for those of us that are budding students of this game called starcraft 2. I as a zerg player (BIASED OMG) agree with all the points he made about zerg's early game, and how it comes down to just making a guess, and hoping you fucking guessed right in order to just be ON EVEN KEEL with your opponent.
So much easier for people to just say IdrA is a whiner
It's quite simple, he feels Zerg is broken early game and he explains why. If Zerg really does end up being weak early on (not saying it is necessarily), then we need people like IdrA telling everyone what's up. He feels that is the case, so he does it.
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On May 05 2011 02:35 Treehead wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2011 02:22 trNimitz wrote:
Just like to mention that blink stalkers counter thor centric play quite nicely (with upgrades ASAP). I hope you mean for harassment purposes and not in a straight up fight.
Grubby did it on his stream. And I first got this from a top Terran on EU (-> best in the world).
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On May 05 2011 00:46 Louuster wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2011 00:23 Duravi wrote:
Day9 for part of the discussion was talking about balance in a different way than we commonly understand it to be in SC2. When he was talking about reaching an equilibrium he was saying that nothing is imbalanced because ultimately people will figure out the better way to do things and then it just comes down to execution. To give an example someone alluded to earlier, he is saying something like, "If zerglings are ridiculously strong and make it impossible for the other races to win, every pro will switch to zerg, use a zergling focused strat, and whoever can execute that the best will win, so there is no imbalance."
This view is not productive at all. When we talk about balance in SC2 we are talking about the best player having the best chance to win REGARDLESS of their race. So it is in a sense combining balance with game design. Day 9 doesn't want to have that discussion. If you want to combat Idra you need to debate one of his initial assumptions, not what "balance" means in SC2.
Idra posited two things:
1. In order to give the better player the best chance to win you either need to be able to scout effectively early in the game or if you are not able to do so be able to blind counter anything it is not possible to scout with a safe build that does not leave you behind until you have the ability to scout again.
2. Zerg cannot do either of those things.
If you want to debate Idra attack one of those; once you admit both are true you essentially have to agree with him. How Sean responded is unproductive. But that way of thinking was shown as correct in BW, which is where all these guys come from and also why Day9 wants to and can argue in favor of it. Back in 06-07, when Savior was killing every zerg on the planet the matchup really seemed imbalanced until an unknown protoss went on to beat him 3-0 in the finals of a big tournament by showing a completely new forge fe into corsair/dt build. Day9 is essentially looking at it from the perspective of a viewer, saying that builds will eventually get figured out. On the other hand, Idra is looking at it from the point of view of a player, who needs to win now instead of a year from now, which is why they will never agree on that point.
Think about what you're saying, it was reasonable to take up that attitude when it came to BW, the more balanced and open-ended game, where each race had a good variety of potent and diverse units at their disposal. As long as each race has enough to work with and can compete with one another in terms of cost-efficiency, the game or 'meta-game' will eventually balance itself out (see: Brood War). This discussion however involves SC2, the less open ended game where zerg are clearly deficient in terms of cost-efficiency and comparative unit-to-unit strength. No more defiler, lurker, tier 1 hydra, etc. Hence why zerg have been considered the UP race since pretty much release.
Day9 takes the stance of thinking that because strategy exists, there therefore will always be workarounds for all difficulties or perceived imbalances, therefore the entire notion of imbalance should never ever be discussed or entertained. But this is completely wrong and stupid, why would you eliminate something that all evidence and logical introspection points to from the realm of possibility for NO good reason? it's absurd. You'd be hard pressed to find anyone who would admit SC2 is free of flaws and has no room for improvement.
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On May 05 2011 03:31 Duravi wrote:Show nested quote +Even if he switched races he'd come up with an all new set of factors about the race to complain about and he'd have a whole new set of followers that listened to his everyword. Whatever race idra is playing is automatically the weakest race. Remember that So many people not understanding; just because someone is bias does not mean you should disregard everything they say. Sure I get sick of Idra whining, I'm sure everyone does (except maybe Artosis), that does not mean he, from time to time, has real valid points.
For what its worth, Artosis said the other day on his stream that he didn't think pvz was imbalanced anymore and he "misses zerg".
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On May 05 2011 03:50 Treehead wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2011 03:31 Duravi wrote:Even if he switched races he'd come up with an all new set of factors about the race to complain about and he'd have a whole new set of followers that listened to his everyword. Whatever race idra is playing is automatically the weakest race. Remember that So many people not understanding; just because someone is bias does not mean you should disregard everything they say. Sure I get sick of Idra whining, I'm sure everyone does (except maybe Artosis), that does not mean he, from time to time, has real valid points. For what its worth, Artosis said the other day on his stream that he didn't think pvz was imbalanced anymore and he "misses zerg".
Well then they should get him on the show and have him argue against IdrA.
I'd love to hear that.
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idra is probably right about the game needing work. also, i wish the toss players would have brought up how risky non-robo builds still are against T's early banshee opening, and how building cannons in the mineral lines on bad/no information is essentially the same thing as building spines to ward off early aggression.
however i think his "you can scout, or you can't scout and have an option for an all defensive build. if you can't do either, then the game is broken" argument is a trap. he might simply mean that zerg needs some changes for its early game, but saying the game is completely broken from a balance PoV has to be a major exaggeration, because the results of tournaments and such do not necessarily indicate "brokenness." i don't blame day9 for not really engaging in the argument at all. if a person decides to exaggerate in order to make his points, then that person can't expect to be reasonably engaged in such a complicated topic.
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I don't get the majority opinion in this thread of -
"Idra whines too much that makes his argument invalid"
Who do you want to discuss game balance for you? You? I highly doubt you're more accomplished than Idra in almost every base of Starcraft 1 & 2. Do you want Dustin Browder to discuss game balance with you? Or do you want someone who's LIVING is based on if he can beat XYZ?
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On May 05 2011 03:50 Treehead wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2011 03:31 Duravi wrote:Even if he switched races he'd come up with an all new set of factors about the race to complain about and he'd have a whole new set of followers that listened to his everyword. Whatever race idra is playing is automatically the weakest race. Remember that So many people not understanding; just because someone is bias does not mean you should disregard everything they say. Sure I get sick of Idra whining, I'm sure everyone does (except maybe Artosis), that does not mean he, from time to time, has real valid points. For what its worth, Artosis said the other day on his stream that he didn't think pvz was imbalanced anymore and he "misses zerg".
LOL....yeaaa ok Artosis I believe you o.O
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On May 05 2011 03:49 NoXious90 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2011 00:46 Louuster wrote:On May 05 2011 00:23 Duravi wrote:
Day9 for part of the discussion was talking about balance in a different way than we commonly understand it to be in SC2. When he was talking about reaching an equilibrium he was saying that nothing is imbalanced because ultimately people will figure out the better way to do things and then it just comes down to execution. To give an example someone alluded to earlier, he is saying something like, "If zerglings are ridiculously strong and make it impossible for the other races to win, every pro will switch to zerg, use a zergling focused strat, and whoever can execute that the best will win, so there is no imbalance."
This view is not productive at all. When we talk about balance in SC2 we are talking about the best player having the best chance to win REGARDLESS of their race. So it is in a sense combining balance with game design. Day 9 doesn't want to have that discussion. If you want to combat Idra you need to debate one of his initial assumptions, not what "balance" means in SC2.
Idra posited two things:
1. In order to give the better player the best chance to win you either need to be able to scout effectively early in the game or if you are not able to do so be able to blind counter anything it is not possible to scout with a safe build that does not leave you behind until you have the ability to scout again.
2. Zerg cannot do either of those things.
If you want to debate Idra attack one of those; once you admit both are true you essentially have to agree with him. How Sean responded is unproductive. But that way of thinking was shown as correct in BW, which is where all these guys come from and also why Day9 wants to and can argue in favor of it. Back in 06-07, when Savior was killing every zerg on the planet the matchup really seemed imbalanced until an unknown protoss went on to beat him 3-0 in the finals of a big tournament by showing a completely new forge fe into corsair/dt build. Day9 is essentially looking at it from the perspective of a viewer, saying that builds will eventually get figured out. On the other hand, Idra is looking at it from the point of view of a player, who needs to win now instead of a year from now, which is why they will never agree on that point. Day9 takes the stance of thinking that because strategy exists, there therefore will always be workarounds for all difficulties or perceived imbalances, therefore the entire notion of imbalance should never ever be discussed or entertained. But this is completely wrong and stupid, why would you eliminate something that all evidence and logical introspection points to from the realm of possibility for NO good reason? it's absurd. You'd be hard pressed to find anyone who would admit SC2 is free of flaws and has no room for improvement.
When has day9 said that is what he thinks? I am pretty sure he just thinks that avenues should be properly explored before balance complaints should become prominent.
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On May 05 2011 03:47 travis wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2011 03:41 Asparagus wrote:On May 05 2011 03:31 travis wrote:On May 05 2011 03:25 WhiteDog wrote:On May 05 2011 03:21 travis wrote:
Random fact: most people are biased about the race they play. Even top pros! Yeah, and it's easier for you to state that fact rather than argue with anyone on balance. yeah, it is lol i remember talking to a friend of mine who is a good bw player, just started playing sc2 seriously he insists that terran is clearly the weakest race(he plays terran). IMMVP said terran is weakest too. apparently there are other top terrans who do too. [I think saying terran is the weakest is actually hilarious though] idra thinks zerg is the weakest. he's not the only top zerg who thinks so MC said he thought protoss was a little UP, right? I kinda think that too, though I am not a top pro. I play protoss. So my conclusion is, just listen to people who seriously analyze the game but aren't invested in a race. People like day9. Other than that, look at statistics from higher level tournaments. Everything else is biased as shit and worthless I didn't even watch this episode btw. But I am going to because I heard it's a good watch. you throw idra's credentials out the window with this statement like he's some diamond who doesn't know any more about the metagame than anyone else, and what comes out of his mouth hold no water, nevermind the fact that he's the most accomplished member on SotG currently. mvp never got as specific as IdrA has in terms of actually backing up why he thinks his specific race is UP. *edit* but whatever, he's just some code-s nobody who bitches too much right? I am sure idra has great reasons as to what is hard about zerg. You think MC or IMMVP can't list some reasons as to why protoss and terran are hard? It's not very difficult to come up with complaints about what you think isn't fair about your race. And guess what, a lot of people who play your same race are going to identify with it and agree with you.
but now we're going into how one plays his race over fundamental mechanics.
I can understand if MC says it's tough to deal with choosing what to chrono and dropping a fast forge or getting an observer out is dependant on a single probe scout isn't denied within the first 3 minutes of the game, and your choice is dictated by the time your opponent put down his gas, and then playing blind build order and hope what he builds isn't a hard counter to yours, then yes I can see where he's coming from.
If he's complaining that toss early game is bad because he lost with 1 gate expand two times in a row, that's a different story.
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EPT
