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On May 05 2011 02:57 R0YAL wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2011 02:44 DukeCanada wrote:
People seem to be so close minded these days.
Day[9] is demanding serious data. Replay analysis, stats, build variations, etc. He is not crying imba, and for good reason. The simple fact that Idra is an amazing zerg player attests to the fact that Zerg is not cripplingly under powered.
A week ago if you looked at the European top 10, there was like one Protoss.
I also whole heartily agree with Tyler in the Protoss coin flip vs the Zerg desire for stable play. Its not fair if Z can defend everything without taking a risk. T and P take a risk, why cant Z? Is it because some pro tells you that you shouldnt have to? In case you didn't know, the foundation of Zerg economy is based soly on risk. One of idra's points was because of poor scouting ability combined with the fact that the Zerg economy is based on risks, it makes for terrible game design if your opponent can come at you with one of 10 different allins that you cant see coming, thus if there isnt a viable way to defend it without knowing then the game is broken.
Everyone takes huge risks with their economy vs miltiary balancing. Certainly, it's kind of inbuilt into Zerg, but for the other races, they have to walk a similar line - so they can keep up with a Zerg doing it. If you play too safe against a Zerg...it really doesn't end well..
Again, it is not hard to defend allins. It is about defending them at an acceptable economic cost. That is something that takes a LONG time to figure out, especially for Zerg with their very delicate builds. Would easier scouting make this simpler? Yeah, certainly. Problem is, if Zerg can defend perfectly, then other races will struggle greatly to keep up with them.
That "darkness" that Zerg suffers from is essential (unless you want to buff P/T...) to slow down Zergs from just powering drones in absolute safety, knowing exactly what their opponent is doing and making the military just in time.
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Can you give me more than a one line answer so I actually understand what the fuck you are saying? Sorry, in advance.
What I was trying to say, and I think what he is, is that Day9 comes from a starting point of view that Balance Discussions are not productive. Therefore he tries to avoid them or change the topic when someone starts making points about in game balance (like he did with his abstract argument about how no game is imbalanced). This makes him have a tendency to overlook things that may turn out to actually be what we as a community call "imbalanced" (like 1 supply roach, 5RR etc...).
Being a public figure in SC2 (not as a player) probably effects this as well, as someone else mentioned he doesn't want to start saying some things are imbalanced on a show designed to help players get better. It would essentially give them an out to complain it is the game not their skill level, when obviously at their level that is not the case.
Idra obviously has a bias of his own as well and you can argue who's view is more biased, point is they both have one.
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I wish people would remember that Idra played a macro Terran style in BW......
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holy crap jp you gotta mod the show and not let topics like that drag on forever... had to turn off the show cause of sean and greg arguing.
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On May 05 2011 02:26 Chicane wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2011 23:59 -_- wrote:
Just listened to SoTG. Heard the argument between Nony and Incontrol. Completely agree with Nony. Can't stand this ridiculous PR in SC2. I hope SC2 crashes so all this fucking suits get the fuck out Starcraft. Hate EG. Hate dumb sponsors. Hate stupid tournaments Hate dumb, bland posts. Hate coaching. Hate people trying to make money. Pathetic. Hahaha wow you seem very naive. I don't even know where to begin or if I even should... unless you were just being overly sarcastic to prove a point. In case you're not... (incoming sarcasm) ya I'm sure SC2 would be much better if we just had no tournaments with a relevant amount of money or sponsors whatsoever. We should all just go back to playing on our own, and trolling each other because who cares about our self image or moving forward as a community right?
I'm not naive. If I was, you'd see me posting "cool tourneys GUYS LOVE YA," "steelseries mouses are the best sooooo sick," "gotta love how esports is growing!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!," "gunner glasses reaally took my game to the next level, bronze to gm np."
On May 05 2011 02:30 Thermia wrote:
See my sig.
You should change your signature from "Sufficiently advanced stupidity is indistinguishable from trolling." to "When I don't understand something, but vaguely feel like I should insult someone, I accuse them of trolling!"
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On May 05 2011 03:12 Tsenister wrote:
I wish people would remember that Idra played a macro Terran style in BW......
And he thought Terran was the most under powered race in BW.
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I am absolutly behind Tyler, He is 100% right, sad that this state of the game was that tense still.
And I agree with -_-, I'm sick of this PR shit too. Never liked the word anyway.
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On May 05 2011 03:01 Roggay wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2011 02:59 Mordiford wrote:On May 05 2011 02:56 Duravi wrote:As many people have already said though, IdrA is also obviously biased, while Day9 isn't and has no reason to be. Just because Day9's opinion is not biased towards a particular race does not mean his opinion has no bias. What? What the fuck? I mean seriously, I don't understand how this sentence is relevant... Sure it sort of makes sense but... What? Okay, so he's not biased towards a particular race, but his opinion may have other biases... Like what? And what do those other biases matter in regards to a discussion about racial balance? Sure, Day9 may like the fuck out of Twinkies but that bias doesn't mean anything in regards to racial balance. Playing Zerg for a living on the other hand does mean something when you're discussing racial balance, particularly when you complained about Terran when you played Terran for a living. Refusing to see anything related to balance because you don't like the idea of it is a bias.
Too bad that's not what happened. Day9 "refrains" from commenting on it but is he actually "refusing to see?" If he's biased, it's probably a good bias that he doesn't influence his huge fanbase to become more of whiners than they already are (just saying that people already are prone to be whiners in general). Can you imagine all of the fence sitters that will spout the following useless garbage: "A-HA he finally admits it, I KNEW IT!" That really helps Starcraft a lot /sarcasm
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On May 05 2011 03:13 danson wrote:
holy crap jp you gotta mod the show and not let topics like that drag on forever... had to turn off the show cause of sean and greg arguing.
If you don't enjoy the heated debates about controversial topics on the show called "State of the game" then maybe you are watching the wrong fucking program. I'd suggest someone of your mental capacity go check out the show "jersey shore" seems right up your alley bro.
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On May 05 2011 03:13 danson wrote:
holy crap jp you gotta mod the show and not let topics like that drag on forever... had to turn off the show cause of sean and greg arguing.
Really? Cause I thought it was really interesting. Despite the length that the discussion went. I just think it's really insightful to get that much of an in depth peak into the minds of professionals of a game.
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On May 05 2011 03:07 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2011 03:02 flowSthead wrote:On May 05 2011 02:58 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On May 05 2011 01:44 ridonkulous wrote:On May 05 2011 01:41 dark14cs wrote:On May 05 2011 01:35 zs3000 wrote:On May 05 2011 01:31 dark14cs wrote:
That last SOTG made me lose respect for Sean. They should have Idra on every show and also a Terran representative. You realize Idra whole arguement was "I know everything, there's nothing else to ever know about anything ever" Your right, terrible guy. I tend to give more weight to the person who plays the game for a living rather than a professional commentator. you do realize that this guy to this day claims tvp in bw is imba despite of flash owning everyone with stunning 72% winrate ?why taking him serious when u have much better sc2 players (in bw too) like mc or mvp saying totaly different things? You're committing a logical fallacy known as "poisoning the well", which is essentially just a special form of ad hominem (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poisoning_the_well). While it could very well be true that IdrA has whined a lot in the past, that doesn't automatically mean that a new statement he brings up is necessarily wrong. His past claims don't falsify his new one. This whole "crying wolf" thing doesn't hold true in logic. His reputation as a biased QQer doesn't make him wrong about everything he ever says ever again. Whether or not you agree with IdrA, don't write him off before even listening to his arguments. IdrA named a series of specific problems (to which Day[9] didn't deny, but didn't have an answer to either), and Day[9] was just... silent, or said that it was too early to tell. Yeah, SC2 is young, and yeah, IdrA whines a lot, but there were literally zero plausible suggestions or recommendations. And when you've tried everything (and I'm sure IdrA has- how many different options does Zerg have for scouting against a wall in the early game?), it doesn't matter how old a game is. IdrA brought up good points about how a Zerg needs to be prepared (in the dark) for a lot more than a Terran or Protoss does- and I'm a Protoss player. And a Day[9] fanboy. lol. Kinda made me sad to see Day[9] seem human and not godly, but IdrA clearly made his case. I completely agree with you, but let's not pretend that Idra did not commit logical fallacies as well. I have no issue with Idra's past as a whiner, but I do have issue with him using logical fallacies when he is arguing with Day9. I mean just as an example, when Day9 was asking to look at specific games, he was doing so because there are other possible reasons besides imbalance that a person lost. Having not seen the games Idra is talking about, it would be difficult for Day9 to make a credible point. Idra completely ignored this and acted like Day9 couldn't provide an answer because there was not one (and in Idra's defense, he probably did so to boost the viewer numbers). I definitely agree that people can lose games for reasons other than imbalance, but I don't think IdrA's remarks about inherent disadvantages and design flaws (like an inability for a Zerg to scout when a Terran or Protoss has a wall up and a marine or stalker out, patrolling the perimeter of the base for overlords) was laced with fallacious reasoning- and it was there where IdrA scored points with me... especially when Day[9] was silent (and almost rightfully so, because I thought IdrA was pretty much correct too).
See, I agree that that may be a design flaw, but the way IdrA leads up to a point kind of shits on his own argument for me. That's largely just IdrA being IdrA though.
I brought up the example of how the game can become kind of a cluster-fuck for Terran as in the late game, Zerg can make a fast tech switch and leave the Terran scrambling to readjust their unit composition and with some unit compositions being outright ridiculous to deal with as Terran such as the Brood Lord, Corrupter, Infestor play.
IdrA pinpointed one situation while simultaneously complaining about all the other things that Zergs have trouble with in that huge speed-sentence, to which Day9 could only respond with, "I think you're wrong" and "That's just venting".
When IdrA says shit like that, he makes it sound like no Zerg should win ever, after coming off of a recent tournament win himself. It makes no fucking sense... Is every Terran and Protoss player absolutely atrocious, with that being the only reason Zergs have been able to keep up?
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Audio enthusiast Tyler with some shitty in-ear headphones ? What has the world come to...
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I don't think any of the hosts/guests should be allowed to talk because they all have an agenda.
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On May 05 2011 03:11 SKtheAnathema wrote:
whether the races are imbalanced or not, i have to side with day9's response of "it just isn't useful" to say the stuff idra is saying, especially when he keeps saying "i lose even when i'm the better player."
well, if idra is smart, he'd play protoss or terran and have a 100% win rate against people he shouldn't lose to. the end. he's just admitting he's making a bad career move in playing zerg.
but then again, if he played toss/terran, he'd have no more excuses for losing :\
Or if you actually listened to the numerous times idra has been asked why he doesn't just switch races you would know that he's already said he enjoys zerg the most, balance changes will come eventually, and that the amount of time it takes to switch races isn't worth it anyways cause it would mean that he would suck ass for a couple months while learning a new race (that he likes less than zerg) whether it's easy or not.
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Random fact: most people are biased about the race they play. Even top pros!
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On May 05 2011 03:15 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2011 03:12 Tsenister wrote:
I wish people would remember that Idra played a macro Terran style in BW...... And he thought Terran was the most under powered race in BW.
Did you even listen? He said tvp was the hardest matchup but other than that he didn't say terran was the most under powered.
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On May 05 2011 03:21 Cathasaigh wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2011 03:15 Plansix wrote:On May 05 2011 03:12 Tsenister wrote:
I wish people would remember that Idra played a macro Terran style in BW...... And he thought Terran was the most under powered race in BW. Did you even listen? He said tvp was the hardest matchup but other than that he didn't say terran was the most under powered.
He said it was the worst in another episode 
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On May 05 2011 03:10 RaLakedaimon wrote:
Idra will always whine and complain no matter what he's involved in, he's immature and thinks he's always better than all those around him, seeing that last night was very funny and i enjoyed the episode (cept for nony and incontrol part that was just blah). Cant believe anyone goes against day9 because he didnt wanna get into some big long drawn out argument against idra, the guy will always act like that so theres no point, i'd love to see him race switch, suddenly the new race he plays would be shit and everyone else would be imba, would love to see him leave the community, his cons far outweigh his pros.
As much as I hate to admit it, this is basically how I feel about it (minus that last part, I think the community needs Idra). I just can't take what Idra says seriously anymore. It's not worth sifting through the constant whining and complaining to find a nugget of truth or something that should actually be discussed. If I were Day[9] I likely wouldn't even have tried to argue with Idra about balance - which is what Day usually does - because he knows that it will never go anywhere with Idra involved.
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On May 05 2011 03:22 Sneakyz wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2011 03:21 Cathasaigh wrote:On May 05 2011 03:15 Plansix wrote:On May 05 2011 03:12 Tsenister wrote:
I wish people would remember that Idra played a macro Terran style in BW...... And he thought Terran was the most under powered race in BW. Did you even listen? He said tvp was the hardest matchup but other than that he didn't say terran was the most under powered. He said it was the worst in another episode
And he said it wasn't in this one.
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On May 05 2011 03:23 Cathasaigh wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2011 03:22 Sneakyz wrote:On May 05 2011 03:21 Cathasaigh wrote:On May 05 2011 03:15 Plansix wrote:On May 05 2011 03:12 Tsenister wrote:
I wish people would remember that Idra played a macro Terran style in BW...... And he thought Terran was the most under powered race in BW. Did you even listen? He said tvp was the hardest matchup but other than that he didn't say terran was the most under powered. He said it was the worst in another episode And he said it wasn't in this one.
Does that make him a reliable source?
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EPT
