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On May 05 2011 02:44 DukeCanada wrote:
People seem to be so close minded these days.
Day[9] is demanding serious data. Replay analysis, stats, build variations, etc. He is not crying imba, and for good reason. The simple fact that Idra is an amazing zerg player attests to the fact that Zerg is not cripplingly under powered.
A week ago if you looked at the European top 10, there was like one Protoss.
I also whole heartily agree with Tyler in the Protoss coin flip vs the Zerg desire for stable play. Its not fair if Z can defend everything without taking a risk. T and P take a risk, why cant Z? Is it because some pro tells you that you shouldnt have to?
In case you didn't know, the foundation of Zerg economy is based soly on risk. One of idra's points was because of poor scouting ability combined with the fact that the Zerg economy is based on risks, it makes for terrible game design if your opponent can come at you with one of 10 different allins that you cant see coming, thus if there isnt a viable way to defend it without knowing then the game is broken.
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On May 05 2011 02:26 Kisra wrote:+ Show Spoiler +A lot of people misunderstand Day9's points. Also, the key thing that Day9 repeated was: To get to the nitty-gritty of a balance discussion, you'd need a lot of numbers, and a lot of replays. For Day9 to commit to saying "Yes, this is imbalanced", he would need facts. He's a math guy, its how he processes things. Day9 didn't give counter-arguements to IdrA's arguements because, as he said, it would take a long time - and that wasn't the apropriate theater to do it. They couldn't exactly say "Okay JP, hold on a minute while we download a ton of ZvX replays and look for trends and patterns."
The feeling I got from the entire discussion was that Day9 would actually enjoy sitting down with IdrA with a pile of replays, a notebook, and figuring things out.
So sure, IdrA presented his broad-strokes concerns with the game and Day9's reply was basically "Show me". Because they couldn't do that on State of the Game, the entire discussion wouldn't be able to go anywhere, which boils down to IdrA venting.
Also, his meta-game comments are widely misunderstood. If you think Day9 wants a situation where, lets say, 4-gate is the optimal strat to play and the game turns into nothing but 4-gates, then I think you need to go watch Day9 Daily 100 again.
As for Tyler and iNcontroL...
... The discussion got off track, really, which is where JP should've maybe stepped in. Looking at what occurred in the EG Masters thread - Colbi posted, speculation ran rife, Tyler posted and things suddenly felt a bit tense, we can learn a few things.
First: Asynchronus releases of information will lead to rampant speculation and people hunting drama. Its the internet, it happens.
Second: Incomplete information will also lead to rampant speculation.
So, how could any drama have been avoided? The most straightforward solution to me is if Colbi and Nazgul had a brief talk and said "We'll both say our sides of the story and release it once the thread is up." I don't think anyone was surprised when one of the first questions asked was "Where's Liquid?" - so a good answer to that question should be prepared.
Sure, Colbi did his job (and did it fine), but the fact is the thread's first bunch of pages are a shitstorm of people asking all sorts, and it was only when Nazgul posted was there any clarity. Just a few more steps towards better communication and it could be avoided.
I'm also painfully aware that posting in this thread is like trying to shout in a crowded room. There's so many posts that nobody will really read or understand anything, and some people just want to yell "lol inc and tyler r fighting!" or "yeah idra u tell it to day9!" I hope I've at least added something constructive to the thread.
^this
Day9 plays Random, therefore is mostly without bias, and only draws conclusions when he has the appropriate amount of facts. I understand where IdrA is coming from but can't understand why you guys don't listen to Sean and reduce to trolling. It makes me a sad panda 
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On May 05 2011 01:44 ridonkulous wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2011 01:41 dark14cs wrote:On May 05 2011 01:35 zs3000 wrote:On May 05 2011 01:31 dark14cs wrote:
That last SOTG made me lose respect for Sean. They should have Idra on every show and also a Terran representative. You realize Idra whole arguement was "I know everything, there's nothing else to ever know about anything ever" Your right, terrible guy. I tend to give more weight to the person who plays the game for a living rather than a professional commentator. you do realize that this guy to this day claims tvp in bw is imba despite of flash owning everyone with stunning 72% winrate ?why taking him serious when u have much better sc2 players (in bw too) like mc or mvp saying totaly different things?
You're committing a logical fallacy known as "poisoning the well", which is essentially just a special form of ad hominem (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poisoning_the_well).
While it could very well be true that IdrA has whined a lot in the past, that doesn't automatically mean that a new statement he brings up is necessarily wrong. His past claims don't falsify his new one. This whole "crying wolf" thing doesn't hold true in logic. His reputation as a biased QQer doesn't make him wrong about everything he ever says ever again.
Whether or not you agree with IdrA, don't write him off before even listening to his arguments.
IdrA named a series of specific problems (to which Day[9] didn't deny, but didn't have an answer to either), and Day[9] was just... silent, or said that it was too early to tell. Yeah, SC2 is young, and yeah, IdrA whines a lot, but there were literally zero plausible suggestions or recommendations for how to solve the Zerg disadvantages that IdrA mentioned. And when you've tried everything (and I'm sure IdrA has- how many different options does Zerg have for scouting against a wall in the early game?), it doesn't matter how old a game is.
IdrA brought up good points about how a Zerg needs to be prepared (in the dark) for a lot more than a Terran or Protoss does- and I'm a Protoss player. And a Day[9] fanboy. lol. Kinda made me sad to see Day[9] seem human and not godly, but IdrA clearly made his case.
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On May 05 2011 02:56 Duravi wrote:Show nested quote +As many people have already said though, IdrA is also obviously biased, while Day9 isn't and has no reason to be. Just because Day9's opinion is not biased towards a particular race does not mean his opinion has no bias.
Exactly, I was hesitating to post something similar. His will to absolutely avoid to say anything about a possible imbalance is a bias in itself.
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On May 05 2011 02:56 Duravi wrote:Show nested quote +As many people have already said though, IdrA is also obviously biased, while Day9 isn't and has no reason to be. Just because Day9's opinion is not biased towards a particular race does not mean his opinion has no bias.
What?
What the fuck?
I mean seriously, I don't understand how this sentence is relevant... Sure it sort of makes sense but... What?
Okay, so he's not biased towards a particular race, but his opinion may have other biases... Like what? And what do those other biases matter in regards to a discussion about racial balance?
Sure, Day9 may like the fuck out of Twinkies but that bias doesn't mean anything in regards to racial balance.
Playing Zerg for a living on the other hand does mean something when you're discussing racial balance, particularly when you complained about Terran when you played Terran for a living.
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On May 05 2011 02:45 LagT_T wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2011 01:06 Defacer wrote:On May 04 2011 22:20 MrCon wrote:
Wow, that discussion between Tyler and Geof/Idra about the EGMasterCup was quite shocking. I'm not sure if Geof was missing the point voluntarily or not. The point is Liquid has a high ethic standard. When other teams comes to promote their product on Liquid, either they adopt themselves that high ethic standard or they just don't come to Liquid.
In the current situation, I'm not far to think that if EG was in liquid situation of having a site in quasi monopoly on starcraft market, the "growth of esport" argument that Geof loved using during their debate would be much, much worse. Because they would try to benefit a lot, lot more financially and would just let sponsors or anyone with a big enough check say whatever bullshit they want on their site. And most likely would prevent competition of existing on their site.
Tyler wasn't saying "You come on liquid so don't say anything bad about liquid", he was saying you come on liquid so don't spew PR bullshit because our forum tries to stay protected of that. And Liquid is what it is because of this. I'm sad Tyler didn't find the words to express how that speech from Geof was just off topic. If Tyler and Liquid were like Geof described with his "dangerous way of thinking", they would just remove the EG thread and not put the tourney on the calendar. It would have 500 viewers, and then Geof could talk about "dangerous way of thinking".
I think you missed the point, MrCon. You need to read the actual EG Master's Cup thread. EG and Colbi DID hold themselves to a high ethical standard, and responded with a neutral, diplomatic and non-partisan response. It was the Team Liquid players that escalated the matter and made it combative, to the point that the admins had to simmer it down. I think everyone on the show would agree that there shouldn't be any 'PR bullshit' on the site and as much transparency as possible. But if your going to demonize every person that sells them self, or withholds information to protect their image as well as the image of others, well, you're going to have a problem with 99% of society. Geoff is exactly right, it is a "dangerous way of thinking", and a slippery slope. The problem was that Colbi didn't actually answer the question forum users were asking: "why isn't team liquid in your league?" Saying that "they rejected the invite" is not the same as saying "they rejected the invite because they weren't satisfied with the playing conditions for their players in korea". The latter is as professional as the former, but satisfies the question made by the forum users.
Colbi actual response was "TL was invited, but they declined." I agree, it's not a perfect or transparent response, but it's not Colbi's job or place to speculate and explain the reasoning of Team Liquid's decision.
Colbi could have elaborated, but misrepresenting someone else's position or speaking on their behalf is often more inflammatory in most cases.
There is also the possibility that he did not feel comfortable going into detail, because he simply felt he didn't have the authority to do so.
Again, I feel like we're arguing about how Colbi could have been more perfect in his communication, which is like arguing whether a white shirt can get whiter. The real issue that Tyler and InControl were discussing was whether the Team Liquid players distaste or resentment towards Colbi and the Master's Cup was fair and warranted.
I honestly don't think it was, or if it is, it can hardly be pinned on Colbi's innocuous statement.
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On May 05 2011 02:59 Mordiford wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2011 02:56 Duravi wrote:As many people have already said though, IdrA is also obviously biased, while Day9 isn't and has no reason to be. Just because Day9's opinion is not biased towards a particular race does not mean his opinion has no bias. What? What the fuck? I mean seriously, I don't understand how this sentence is relevant... Sure it sort of makes sense but... What? Okay, so he's not biased towards a particular race, but his opinion may have other biases... Like what? And what do those other biases matter in regards to a discussion about racial balance? Sure, Day9 may like the fuck out of Twinkies but that bias doesn't mean anything in regards to racial balance. Playing Zerg for a living on the other hand does mean something when you're discussing racial balance, particularly when you complained about Terran when you played Terran for a living.
Refusing to see anything related to balance because you don't like the idea of it is a bias.
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People bashing on day9 is fucking rediculous, really. By what grounds can you say Idra is better at analyzing the game than day9? That's right, you can't. Being a respected progamer does not make your opinion above everyone else.
I don't think most rational people are bashing Day. In my opinion he did a poor job of arguing and the points he did make clearly were not very useful to the discussion. That is not bashing him or saying Idra is a better analyst of the game or anything broad like that. In this one discussion he made vague points and did not do a good job of trying to refute Idra's points (once again that is just my opinion).
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On May 05 2011 03:01 Roggay wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2011 02:59 Mordiford wrote:On May 05 2011 02:56 Duravi wrote:As many people have already said though, IdrA is also obviously biased, while Day9 isn't and has no reason to be. Just because Day9's opinion is not biased towards a particular race does not mean his opinion has no bias. What? What the fuck? I mean seriously, I don't understand how this sentence is relevant... Sure it sort of makes sense but... What? Okay, so he's not biased towards a particular race, but his opinion may have other biases... Like what? And what do those other biases matter in regards to a discussion about racial balance? Sure, Day9 may like the fuck out of Twinkies but that bias doesn't mean anything in regards to racial balance. Playing Zerg for a living on the other hand does mean something when you're discussing racial balance, particularly when you complained about Terran when you played Terran for a living. Refusing to see anything related to balance because you don't like the idea of it is a bias.
Can you give me more than a one line answer so I actually understand what the fuck you are saying? Sorry, in advance.
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On May 05 2011 02:58 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2011 01:44 ridonkulous wrote:On May 05 2011 01:41 dark14cs wrote:On May 05 2011 01:35 zs3000 wrote:On May 05 2011 01:31 dark14cs wrote:
That last SOTG made me lose respect for Sean. They should have Idra on every show and also a Terran representative. You realize Idra whole arguement was "I know everything, there's nothing else to ever know about anything ever" Your right, terrible guy. I tend to give more weight to the person who plays the game for a living rather than a professional commentator. you do realize that this guy to this day claims tvp in bw is imba despite of flash owning everyone with stunning 72% winrate ?why taking him serious when u have much better sc2 players (in bw too) like mc or mvp saying totaly different things? You're committing a logical fallacy known as "poisoning the well", which is essentially just a special form of ad hominem (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poisoning_the_well). While it could very well be true that IdrA has whined a lot in the past, that doesn't automatically mean that a new statement he brings up is necessarily wrong. His past claims don't falsify his new one. This whole "crying wolf" thing doesn't hold true in logic. His reputation as a biased QQer doesn't make him wrong about everything he ever says ever again. Whether or not you agree with IdrA, don't write him off before even listening to his arguments. IdrA named a series of specific problems (to which Day[9] didn't deny, but didn't have an answer to either), and Day[9] was just... silent, or said that it was too early to tell. Yeah, SC2 is young, and yeah, IdrA whines a lot, but there were literally zero plausible suggestions or recommendations. And when you've tried everything (and I'm sure IdrA has- how many different options does Zerg have for scouting against a wall in the early game?), it doesn't matter how old a game is. IdrA brought up good points about how a Zerg needs to be prepared (in the dark) for a lot more than a Terran or Protoss does- and I'm a Protoss player. And a Day[9] fanboy. lol. Kinda made me sad to see Day[9] seem human and not godly, but IdrA clearly made his case.
I completely agree with you, but let's not pretend that Idra did not commit logical fallacies as well. I have no issue with Idra's past as a whiner, but I do have issue with him using logical fallacies when he is arguing with Day9. I mean just as an example, when Day9 was asking to look at specific games, he was doing so because there are other possible reasons besides imbalance that a person lost. Having not seen the games Idra is talking about, it would be difficult for Day9 to make a credible point. Idra completely ignored this and acted like Day9 couldn't provide an answer because there was not one (and in Idra's defense, he probably did so to boost the viewer numbers).
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On May 05 2011 02:57 R0YAL wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2011 02:44 DukeCanada wrote:
People seem to be so close minded these days.
Day[9] is demanding serious data. Replay analysis, stats, build variations, etc. He is not crying imba, and for good reason. The simple fact that Idra is an amazing zerg player attests to the fact that Zerg is not cripplingly under powered.
A week ago if you looked at the European top 10, there was like one Protoss.
I also whole heartily agree with Tyler in the Protoss coin flip vs the Zerg desire for stable play. Its not fair if Z can defend everything without taking a risk. T and P take a risk, why cant Z? Is it because some pro tells you that you shouldnt have to? In case you didn't know, the foundation of Zerg economy is based soly on risk. One of idra's points was because of poor scouting ability combined with the fact that the Zerg economy is based on risks makes for terrible game design if your opponent can come at you with one of 10 different allins that you cant see coming, thus if there isnt a viable way to defend it without knowing then the game is broken.
thats has more to do with game design flaw not imbalance, zerg with perfect scouting would be able to win games with much higher winrate but blizzard decided to to mix in the luck factor (when u have to guess opponents build) which imo is stupid.
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On May 05 2011 03:02 Duravi wrote:Show nested quote +People bashing on day9 is fucking rediculous, really. By what grounds can you say Idra is better at analyzing the game than day9? That's right, you can't. Being a respected progamer does not make your opinion above everyone else. I don't think most rational people are bashing Day. In my opinion he did a poor job of arguing and the points he did make clearly were not very useful to the discussion. That is not bashing him or saying Idra is a better analyst of the game or anything broad like that. In this one discussion he made vague points and did not do a good job of trying to refute Idra's points (once again that is just my opinion).
I think the reason day9 does not like the whole imbalance thing is because he's the "I don't see problems - I see solutions" kind of guy. And as someone else stated, i think he would enjoy to just sit down with Idra and brainstorm about what zerg could possibly do different.
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The most interesting part for me was tyler and geoff talking about the EG Masters thread.
I was disappointed at tyler's approach to the discussion. I though geoff was trying to have a constructive conversation, and tyler was trying to defend his bad manner in the forum with more bad manner.
Tyler came off as a despot toward the end of the discussion, which isn't good for him or his team.
I love day9! I love him, and I was totally with him as he was explaining that bitching about imbalance isn't productive in general. When he didn't recognize that Idra had a point about zerg's lack of scouting and lack of solid defensive capabilities being a problem in combination, I was disappointed. You are usually gosu times two day9 !
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On May 05 2011 03:02 flowSthead wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2011 02:58 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On May 05 2011 01:44 ridonkulous wrote:On May 05 2011 01:41 dark14cs wrote:On May 05 2011 01:35 zs3000 wrote:On May 05 2011 01:31 dark14cs wrote:
That last SOTG made me lose respect for Sean. They should have Idra on every show and also a Terran representative. You realize Idra whole arguement was "I know everything, there's nothing else to ever know about anything ever" Your right, terrible guy. I tend to give more weight to the person who plays the game for a living rather than a professional commentator. you do realize that this guy to this day claims tvp in bw is imba despite of flash owning everyone with stunning 72% winrate ?why taking him serious when u have much better sc2 players (in bw too) like mc or mvp saying totaly different things? You're committing a logical fallacy known as "poisoning the well", which is essentially just a special form of ad hominem (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poisoning_the_well). While it could very well be true that IdrA has whined a lot in the past, that doesn't automatically mean that a new statement he brings up is necessarily wrong. His past claims don't falsify his new one. This whole "crying wolf" thing doesn't hold true in logic. His reputation as a biased QQer doesn't make him wrong about everything he ever says ever again. Whether or not you agree with IdrA, don't write him off before even listening to his arguments. IdrA named a series of specific problems (to which Day[9] didn't deny, but didn't have an answer to either), and Day[9] was just... silent, or said that it was too early to tell. Yeah, SC2 is young, and yeah, IdrA whines a lot, but there were literally zero plausible suggestions or recommendations. And when you've tried everything (and I'm sure IdrA has- how many different options does Zerg have for scouting against a wall in the early game?), it doesn't matter how old a game is. IdrA brought up good points about how a Zerg needs to be prepared (in the dark) for a lot more than a Terran or Protoss does- and I'm a Protoss player. And a Day[9] fanboy. lol. Kinda made me sad to see Day[9] seem human and not godly, but IdrA clearly made his case. I completely agree with you, but let's not pretend that Idra did not commit logical fallacies as well. I have no issue with Idra's past as a whiner, but I do have issue with him using logical fallacies when he is arguing with Day9. I mean just as an example, when Day9 was asking to look at specific games, he was doing so because there are other possible reasons besides imbalance that a person lost. Having not seen the games Idra is talking about, it would be difficult for Day9 to make a credible point. Idra completely ignored this and acted like Day9 couldn't provide an answer because there was not one (and in Idra's defense, he probably did so to boost the viewer numbers).
I definitely agree that people can lose games for reasons other than imbalance, but I don't think IdrA's remarks about inherent disadvantages and design flaws (like an inability for a Zerg to scout when a Terran or Protoss has a wall up and a marine or stalker out, patrolling the perimeter of the base for overlords) was laced with fallacious reasoning- and it was there where IdrA scored points with me... especially when Day[9] was silent (and almost rightfully so, because I thought IdrA was pretty much correct too).
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I think the last Episode was really disappointing. In the Day9 vs Idra debate, Day9 didn't say many useful things while Idra at least talked about the game, but since he is such a notorious whiner I can't trust him. And the Tyler vs Incontrol debate was just long and boring.
I still wish they can find an European guest for more episodes. Of course it's a bad time for Europeans. But the EU scene is so big and active, and the SotG guys don't really follow it and tbh they don't have a clue.
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On May 05 2011 02:50 Teivospy wrote:
4 years from now Day9 will still be saying that the game needs to evolve, so I don't really think he is a credible source on SC2 information compared to IdrA considering IdrA actually is a progamer and Day9 is a celebrity caster
SC1 != SC2. The metagame of SC1 was controlled by how hard it was to macro up towards the units that did massive damage through intensive micro use. SC2 everything is 100% easier to do and AOE does so much more damage because of clumping so the game is fkin easy and anyone can play it (including myself). The Metagame of this game has to be controlled by blizzard through patches and balance tweaks, not by the evolution of the game itself
I think Idra's argument that zerg can't scout as effectivly as Terran/Protoss is valid. They don't have reliable way to gather information (scan or obs) and that does seem to put them at a disadvantage. Creep spread helps, but doesn't get them inside the enemy base.
I didn't play BW, but I think remember Zerg being able to parasite a unit or be able to see through their vision until the unit died. I think that would be a better solution than the changling and would allow the Zerg to get more information their opponents army/build.
On the other hand, the whole argument that he was in Korea for 2 years so he is entitled to win is just silly. If other progamers come up with creative builds and timings that take advantage of his "safe" play, they deserve to be rewarded for that. Idra's whole out "playing his opponent" plan is fine, but he needs to take ownership of the loss gets outplayed. Not just say the Protoss, terran, and the maps are all broken.
I love cheering for Idra, he is a blast to cheer for and funny to listen to. I just want him to accept that oppenents can be better than him.
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Idra will always whine and complain no matter what he's involved in, he's immature and thinks he's always better than all those around him, seeing that last night was very funny and i enjoyed the episode (cept for nony and incontrol part that was just blah). Cant believe anyone goes against day9 because he didnt wanna get into some big long drawn out argument against idra, the guy will always act like that so theres no point, i'd love to see him race switch, suddenly the new race he plays would be shit and everyone else would be imba, would love to see him leave the community, his cons far outweigh his pros.
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On May 05 2011 03:02 Mordiford wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2011 03:01 Roggay wrote:On May 05 2011 02:59 Mordiford wrote:On May 05 2011 02:56 Duravi wrote:As many people have already said though, IdrA is also obviously biased, while Day9 isn't and has no reason to be. Just because Day9's opinion is not biased towards a particular race does not mean his opinion has no bias. What? What the fuck? I mean seriously, I don't understand how this sentence is relevant... Sure it sort of makes sense but... What? Okay, so he's not biased towards a particular race, but his opinion may have other biases... Like what? And what do those other biases matter in regards to a discussion about racial balance? Sure, Day9 may like the fuck out of Twinkies but that bias doesn't mean anything in regards to racial balance. Playing Zerg for a living on the other hand does mean something when you're discussing racial balance, particularly when you complained about Terran when you played Terran for a living. Refusing to see anything related to balance because you don't like the idea of it is a bias. Can you give me more than a one line answer so I actually understand what the fuck you are saying? Sorry, in advance.
Being all aggressive on me and then being sorry will not help you sir.
Day9 is biased, like everyone, because he is not a perfect human. By refusing to see any imbalance he is being biased (not that it is bad too be biased, everyone is), because he does not have perfect knowledge of the situation. What if (imagine) IdrA is completely right and the situation is exactly as he says. Then Day9 would have been biased toward the two other races by defending that the game had no imbalance they way it was and that zerg had the same chances. I am greatly exagerating things and I do not know if IdrA is right or not, also I know that Day9 only said that "you can't prove that the game is imbalanced", but the point remains, everyone is biased, like it or not.
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A few suggestions ignoring all that was discussed last night. I think the show needs to be organized a bit better and the discussions also need to be controlled. The moment you realize that it just keeps going around in circle, cut it. Don't hesitate, just do it. The discussion/arguments dragged out for too long and at some point started getting too personal as well.
My biggest disappointment this episode was that Tasteless got on the show and was not given the opportunity to talk. It's the first time he appeared on the show and I just felt as if it was a big opportunity missed. So much could have been asked and the show honestly could have gone from good to amazing. Anyways, I just hope you manage to get him back on the show next time.
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whether the races are imbalanced or not, i have to side with day9's response of "it just isn't useful" to say the stuff idra is saying, especially when he keeps saying "i lose even when i'm the better player."
well, if idra is smart, he'd play protoss or terran and have a 100% win rate against people he shouldn't lose to. the end. he's just admitting he's making a bad career move in playing zerg.
but then again, if he played toss/terran, he'd have no more excuses for losing :\
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EPT
