EPTOfficial State of the Game Podcast Thread - Page 962
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syllogism
Finland5948 Posts
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Kisra
United Kingdom466 Posts
The feeling I got from the entire discussion was that Day9 would actually enjoy sitting down with IdrA with a pile of replays, a notebook, and figuring things out. So sure, IdrA presented his broad-strokes concerns with the game and Day9's reply was basically "Show me". Because they couldn't do that on State of the Game, the entire discussion wouldn't be able to go anywhere, which boils down to IdrA venting. Also, his meta-game comments are widely misunderstood. If you think Day9 wants a situation where, lets say, 4-gate is the optimal strat to play and the game turns into nothing but 4-gates, then I think you need to go watch Day9 Daily 100 again. As for Tyler and iNcontroL... ... The discussion got off track, really, which is where JP should've maybe stepped in. Looking at what occurred in the EG Masters thread - Colbi posted, speculation ran rife, Tyler posted and things suddenly felt a bit tense, we can learn a few things. First: Asynchronus releases of information will lead to rampant speculation and people hunting drama. Its the internet, it happens. Second: Incomplete information will also lead to rampant speculation. So, how could any drama have been avoided? The most straightforward solution to me is if Colbi and Nazgul had a brief talk and said "We'll both say our sides of the story and release it once the thread is up." I don't think anyone was surprised when one of the first questions asked was "Where's Liquid?" - so a good answer to that question should be prepared. Sure, Colbi did his job (and did it fine), but the fact is the thread's first bunch of pages are a shitstorm of people asking all sorts, and it was only when Nazgul posted was there any clarity. Just a few more steps towards better communication and it could be avoided. I'm also painfully aware that posting in this thread is like trying to shout in a crowded room. There's so many posts that nobody will really read or understand anything, and some people just want to yell "lol inc and tyler r fighting!" or "yeah idra u tell it to day9!" I hope I've at least added something constructive to the thread. | ||
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Chicane
United States7875 Posts
On May 04 2011 23:59 -_- wrote: Just listened to SoTG. Heard the argument between Nony and Incontrol. Completely agree with Nony. Can't stand this ridiculous PR in SC2. I hope SC2 crashes so all this fucking suits get the fuck out Starcraft. Hate EG. Hate dumb sponsors. Hate stupid tournaments Hate dumb, bland posts. Hate coaching. Hate people trying to make money. Pathetic. Hahaha wow you seem very naive. I don't even know where to begin or if I even should... unless you were just being overly sarcastic to prove a point. In case you're not... (incoming sarcasm) ya I'm sure SC2 would be much better if we just had no tournaments with a relevant amount of money or sponsors whatsoever. We should all just go back to playing on our own, and trolling each other because who cares about our self image or moving forward as a community right? | ||
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Xinder
United States2269 Posts
On May 05 2011 02:11 Ceari wrote: Can JP please in the future prevent the co-casters of the show from drinking strong alcoholic beverages? I felt as the show progressed the discussions became severly impaired due to that factor. Just so you're aware. JP was drinking a margarita in during the pregame and if he hadn't finished it yet he would have been drinking it during the show. Also I don't think it had any effect on the quality. Most of them actually probably loosened up a bit. It's not like they were hammering down drinks. If you want drunk and show falling apart. Look up the SotG episode (i forget the number >_<) of their last one before they took a break for christmas. They were playing a drinking game during the show and got pretty drunk. THAT is drunk for you. Them having one cocktail during the show is not even close. | ||
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Roggay
Switzerland6320 Posts
I kind of agree with Tyler in the sense that when you make a thread on Teamliquid and especially if you represent a league like here, you have the responsability to post quality stuff and explain things when there is a sensible issue. Colbi's response was not good because he only presented the action and not the reasons, which is not good because it forces teamliquid to quickly release an official statement on the issue, unless they want 100pages of "TL why u no like EG?" or "TL players are so bad that they are ashamed to play in a teamleague" etc.. and I have seen posts like that. Tyler maybe felt that and quickly responded, maybe too quickly because he went all passive-aggressive on Colbi which didnt help at all. In the end, the whole discussion itself is pretty unimportant, but I agree with Tyler that Colbi shouldnt have responded like he did, because Teamliquid have standards you have to respect (although Tyler had some terrible arguments, like the number of posts and such). | ||
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1Eris1
United States5797 Posts
Also, I honestly think Day9 should just not comment on balance at this point, he's only making himself look bad at this point | ||
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Thermia
United States866 Posts
On May 05 2011 02:26 Chicane wrote: Hahaha wow you seem very naive. I don't even know where to begin or if I even should... unless you were just being overly sarcastic to prove a point. In case you're not... (incoming sarcasm) ya I'm sure SC2 would be much better if we just had no tournaments with a relevant amount of money or sponsors whatsoever. We should all just go back to playing on our own, and trolling each other because who cares about our self image or moving forward as a community right? See my sig. Also, I was laughing when Tyler started to claim that Colbi shouldn't have posted the news on TL, because Hot Bid basically said the exact opposite in the thread itself iirc, and put it in the featured news along with every other big league/tourney. | ||
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trNimitz
204 Posts
On May 05 2011 02:26 Kisra wrote: A lot of people misunderstand Day9's points. Also, the key thing that Day9 repeated was: To get to the nitty-gritty of a balance discussion, you'd need a lot of numbers, and a lot of replays. For Day9 to commit to saying "Yes, this is imbalanced", he would need facts. He's a math guy, its how he processes things. Day9 didn't give counter-arguements to IdrA's arguements because, as he said, it would take a long time - and that wasn't the apropriate theater to do it. They couldn't exactly say "Okay JP, hold on a minute while we download a ton of ZvX replays and look for trends and patterns." The feeling I got from the entire discussion was that Day9 would actually enjoy sitting down with IdrA with a pile of replays, a notebook, and figuring things out. So sure, IdrA presented his broad-strokes concerns with the game and Day9's reply was basically "Show me". Because they couldn't do that on State of the Game, the entire discussion wouldn't be able to go anywhere, which boils down to IdrA venting. Also, his meta-game comments are widely misunderstood. If you think Day9 wants a situation where, lets say, 4-gate is the optimal strat to play and the game turns into nothing but 4-gates, then I think you need to go watch Day9 Daily 100 again. As for Tyler and iNcontroL... ... The discussion got off track, really, which is where JP should've maybe stepped in. Looking at what occurred in the EG Masters thread - Colbi posted, speculation ran rife, Tyler posted and things suddenly felt a bit tense, we can learn a few things. First: Asynchronus releases of information will lead to rampant speculation and people hunting drama. Its the internet, it happens. Second: Incomplete information will also lead to rampant speculation. So, how could any drama have been avoided? The most straightforward solution to me is if Colbi and Nazgul had a brief talk and said "We'll both say our sides of the story and release it once the thread is up." I don't think anyone was surprised when one of the first questions asked was "Where's Liquid?" - so a good answer to that question should be prepared. Sure, Colbi did his job (and did it fine), but the fact is the thread's first bunch of pages are a shitstorm of people asking all sorts, and it was only when Nazgul posted was there any clarity. Just a few more steps towards better communication and it could be avoided. I'm also painfully aware that posting in this thread is like trying to shout in a crowded room. There's so many posts that nobody will really read or understand anything, and some people just want to yell "lol inc and tyler r fighting!" or "yeah idra u tell it to day9!" I hope I've at least added something constructive to the thread. This is 100% correct, ESPECIALLY the bit about day9. People are just too bad to realize that he couldn't be more right. | ||
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Leach
United States536 Posts
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Treehead
999 Posts
On May 05 2011 02:09 INFDexter wrote: Okay, obviously Idra is biased, and a lot of his remarks are inflammatory. However, Day9 did not really add anything to the conversation, and seems completely unwilling to make any sort of comment on Idra's points. I have to say, from a listener perspective, this is slightly frustrating. Day9 obviously knows a lot about the game and does really great analysis, but he is not a competitive player and doesn't actively contribute to the meta game, other than from a strictly bystander perspective. That being said, it could also be argued that Idra doesn't contribute anything either by making statements like "My race is broken." Statements like that seem to come from frustration, and frustration is not a good element to add into a balance discussion. But, statements like "No amount of creativity will get an Overlord past a marine" point out something specific that shows a serious weakness in Zerg. I would love to hear Day9 say something about this point other than "I don't agree with you" or continue to argue that some magic solution is out there, which might be true, but doesn't really add anything to the discussion of Zerg's scouting problems. Furthermore, Day9 admitted that the game might evolve to the point where one race isn't played anymore because of how the metagame has evolved. In my opinion, this would be terrible for esports and sc2, and if such a thing were to happen, serious changes in the game would have to be made. Idra's point: "Either I need to be able to overlord scout or i need to be able to defend everything or the game is broken. I curently can't do either of those things. Therefore the game is broken." There are 3 logical places to attack this: his assumptions (the first sentence), his statement (the second sentence or his conclusion. Obviously his conclusion follows from his assumption and his statement, so lets rule that one out. The assumption and the statement are both clearly stated as if they were fact, without any detail. Therefore all Day can say is "I think you're wrong". If Greg opens a replay and says "look here I couldn't scout", then lots of people will have feedback. When someone says say "I think math is based on flawed assumptions", and doesn't go into more detail than that, then your only rebuttal can be one that doesn't contribute much: "I think you're wrong". Now, if Idra picked some game and said "this game is evidence of imbalance because _______", people will have stuff to talk about. He won't do this, so all the conversation can ever be is Idra talking about his feelings as though they were indisputable fact and other people saying "I think you're wrong". | ||
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zeru
8156 Posts
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Roggay
Switzerland6320 Posts
On May 05 2011 02:30 trNimitz wrote: This is 100% correct, ESPECIALLY the bit about day9. People are just too bad to realize that he couldn't be more right. Wait... are you really supporting Day9 with an IdrAish argument? | ||
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Treehead
999 Posts
On May 05 2011 02:22 trNimitz wrote: Just like to mention that blink stalkers counter thor centric play quite nicely (with upgrades ASAP). I hope you mean for harassment purposes and not in a straight up fight. | ||
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Ben...
Canada3485 Posts
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hydirl
7 Posts
Zerg- Hard Protoss- Medium Terran- Easy This is how it feels on the ladder and watching streams. I really don't care what units they adjust they just need to make the correct adjustments to fix it... | ||
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Mordiford
4448 Posts
On May 05 2011 02:36 hydirl wrote: Multilayer has a difficulty level. Zerg- Hard Protoss- Medium Terran- Easy This is how it feels on the ladder and watching streams. I really don't care what units they adjust they just need to make the correct adjustments to fix it... I disagree. Care to elaborate as to why you think those are the difficulty levels? I feel as the game goes on, Terran becomes the hardest. Protoss is in the middle in terms of difficulty, perhaps even the easiest in terms of macro but they are the most micro intensive for the most part. Zerg has a hard time early on, but as the game goes on, they gain an advantage. | ||
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Yaotzin
South Africa4280 Posts
On May 05 2011 02:33 Treehead wrote: "Either I need to be able to overlord scout or i need to be able to defend everything or the game is broken. I curently can't do either of those things. Therefore the game is broken." Just for the record, the assumptions in this are daft. Zerg can easily defend whatever allin they want. They'll just be stuck on one base and die an economic death. IdrA wants to know how to get away with an economically strong build that doesn't die to any allins. Which is something that takes a shitload of time to figure out. It takes an especially long time for Zerg because they tread such a fine line with overdroning or not. | ||
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Roggay
Switzerland6320 Posts
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Ansinjunger
United States2451 Posts
Additionally, rofl at Idra's comment on BW's weakest race, [the one I play] Terran. Not to mention him calling Kiwikaki and Naniwa bad. | ||
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Treehead
999 Posts
On May 05 2011 02:26 Kisra wrote: A lot of people misunderstand Day9's points. Also, the key thing that Day9 repeated was: To get to the nitty-gritty of a balance discussion, you'd need a lot of numbers, and a lot of replays. For Day9 to commit to saying "Yes, this is imbalanced", he would need facts. He's a math guy, its how he processes things. Is there another logical way to make conclusions other than with facts instead of opinions or statements? | ||
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