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On May 05 2011 01:12 WhiteDog wrote:I want all the protoss out there, tyler incontrol and day fan, to explain us why the Thor nerf is good ? The game is not figured out... ? Should we not try to open more doors before nerfing anything ? So day's argument is not a tautology, since it does not apply for thors... 
I don't think anyone said the thor nerf was definitely needed. In fact, I seem to recall Tyler saying he didn't communicate his fear of thors specifically because it would be interpretted as him saying they needed nerfing. I think Tyler said he was happy that they didn't have to figure out how to beat thors. Day was silent on this point.
Thats different than saying change is needed. I think given time protoss would've developed something to get around the thor (probably by abusing how slow it is), but apparently the devs felt otherwise.
This is a completely different situation than if Tyler had said "thors are bullshit, and need a nerf". Don't try to make Tyler's sentiment of "phew, that's a relief" into Idra's sentiment of "Colossi/VRs and Immortal/Templar and zerg scouting and 2rax are obviously breaking the game".
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On May 05 2011 01:41 dark14cs wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2011 01:35 zs3000 wrote:On May 05 2011 01:31 dark14cs wrote:
That last SOTG made me lose respect for Sean. They should have Idra on every show and also a Terran representative. You realize Idra whole arguement was "I know everything, there's nothing else to ever know about anything ever" Your right, terrible guy. I tend to give more weight to the person who plays the game for a living rather than a professional commentator.
I tend to give more weight to the person that doesn't use logical fallacies, like arguing from authority (or was it appeal to authority?). But to each their own :-).
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On May 05 2011 01:19 Gentso wrote:
Man, I wish you guys had a chance to involve Tasteless more in the show. That was really unfortunate how he came on (even with his webcam) and all he did was sit there listening to nonsensical babble until he gave his shoutouts. I saw the sadness in his eyes as he was waiting to be part of the show!
I just wanted to repost this because this is true and I'm afraid it won't be picked up with the ridiculous amount of team day9 vs team idra and team tyler vs team incontrol.
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On May 05 2011 01:41 dark14cs wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2011 01:35 zs3000 wrote:On May 05 2011 01:31 dark14cs wrote:
That last SOTG made me lose respect for Sean. They should have Idra on every show and also a Terran representative. You realize Idra whole arguement was "I know everything, there's nothing else to ever know about anything ever" Your right, terrible guy. I tend to give more weight to the person who plays the game for a living rather than a professional commentator.
Why only IdrA though? Why not listen to MC "Protoss is the weakest race" or MVP who doesn't think much of Terran?
You can find seriously good pros to support whatever balance view you want. That's why one should look at the actual arguments and ignore who makes them.
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On May 05 2011 01:41 dark14cs wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2011 01:35 zs3000 wrote:On May 05 2011 01:31 dark14cs wrote:
That last SOTG made me lose respect for Sean. They should have Idra on every show and also a Terran representative. You realize Idra whole arguement was "I know everything, there's nothing else to ever know about anything ever" Your right, terrible guy. I tend to give more weight to the person who plays the game for a living rather than a professional commentator.
you do realize that this guy to this day claims tvp in bw is imba despite of flash owning everyone with stunning 72% winrate ?
why taking him serious when u have much better sc2 players (in bw too) like mc or mvp saying totaly different things?
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On May 05 2011 01:41 dark14cs wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2011 01:35 zs3000 wrote:On May 05 2011 01:31 dark14cs wrote:
That last SOTG made me lose respect for Sean. They should have Idra on every show and also a Terran representative. You realize Idra whole arguement was "I know everything, there's nothing else to ever know about anything ever" Your right, terrible guy. I tend to give more weight to the person who plays the game for a living rather than a professional commentator.
Therein lies your issue, as you are not factoring in attitudes into the equation. Day[9] hit the nail on the head when he said that balance discussion should be completely dispassionate and based on evidence and numbers.
Day[9] is a random player with no race bias, IdrA is a player with a longstanding reputation for whining about his race being underpowered.
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you do realize that this guy to this day claims tvp in bw is imba despite of flash owning everyone with stunning 72% winrate ?
Does knowing that invalidate his argument? You should attack the points people make, not the person themselves. (Which is why I also agree you shouldn't invalidate Day9's argument because he is not a pro, I just feel he didn't make a very good one)
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On May 05 2011 01:44 Yaotzin wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2011 01:41 dark14cs wrote:On May 05 2011 01:35 zs3000 wrote:On May 05 2011 01:31 dark14cs wrote:
That last SOTG made me lose respect for Sean. They should have Idra on every show and also a Terran representative. You realize Idra whole arguement was "I know everything, there's nothing else to ever know about anything ever" Your right, terrible guy. I tend to give more weight to the person who plays the game for a living rather than a professional commentator. You can find seriously good pros to support whatever balance view you want. That's why one should look at the actual arguments and ignore who makes them.
I think that the Koreans are more humble.
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Geoff: Ask Greg what race he thought was weak in BW
Greg: ... Terran
Geoff: and what race did you play
Greg: ....Terran
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On May 05 2011 01:47 dark14cs wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2011 01:44 Yaotzin wrote:On May 05 2011 01:41 dark14cs wrote:On May 05 2011 01:35 zs3000 wrote:On May 05 2011 01:31 dark14cs wrote:
That last SOTG made me lose respect for Sean. They should have Idra on every show and also a Terran representative. You realize Idra whole arguement was "I know everything, there's nothing else to ever know about anything ever" Your right, terrible guy. I tend to give more weight to the person who plays the game for a living rather than a professional commentator. You can find seriously good pros to support whatever balance view you want. That's why one should look at the actual arguments and ignore who makes them. I think that the Koreans are more humble.
OK? Not sure what that has to do with my point.
Arguing from authority only makes sense when there is a consensus amongst the authority (in this case progamers). There quite clearly is not. So look at the arguments and ignore the source.
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On May 05 2011 01:35 zs3000 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2011 01:31 dark14cs wrote:
That last SOTG made me lose respect for Sean. They should have Idra on every show and also a Terran representative. You lost respect for a guy that just showed everyone that Idra doesn't know what he's talking about? You realize Idra whole arguement was "I know everything, there's nothing else to ever know about anything ever" You lost respect for Day9 because Idra thinks that and Day9 actually puts thought and foresight into his words? Your right, terrible guy.
Are you really serious? I understand people have opinions, but for you to come here and say a player of Idra's calibre has no clue what he's talking about is stupid. seeing he doesn't have a clue, his results are based on what exactly, him being lucky rather then knowing what he's doing and understanding the game?
I tought his points of it being hard to scout and early aggression being difficult were very valid atleast. And countering everything someone says with 'well, haven't figured it out yet' seems incredibly easy.
Imagine nothing changes, and in 5 years time thesame problems are still there. Will you come here and say 'oops, guess i was wrong'?
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I think a lot of people are attacking Day9's attitude because it seemed like he wasn't adding anything to his standpoint. Is a neutral wait and see attitude wrong, no it's not, so why are people acting like it is. Day wasn't even tackling Idra's arguments because while Idra may be right, who is to say that tomorrow, or the next day or next week someone doesn't come up with a new way to play Zerg? I mean even Idra was inspired by Spanishiwa to use his build, a guy that nobody even knew existed, comes along and blows everyone's minds.
So they are both right and could be both proven wrong, unless you are a time traveler and can see the future of Zerg. I'll concede that Zerg right now is balanced almost entirely around Infestors, which is just, terrible, but that's balance for you. If I had to be honest I feel like Blizzard didn't give themselves enough wiggle room balance-wise with Zerg and and it's causing problems now.
I don't really agree with Incontrol toying with Idra over winning IPL after Idra said Zerg can't win anything. If Kiwi gets Phoenix in the last game for map control, which for him was non-existent, I feel like that game would have been totally different. Instead he played poorly and tried defending 3 bases with only stalkers. Idra is right, Zerg drops can be completely shut down with observer placement and aggressive Phoneix use, which has been shown numerous times before.
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Haven't scanned the thread but did anyone else post a pic of when 20k was hit?
![[image loading]](http://img62.imageshack.us/img62/5803/20kjp.jpg)
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On May 05 2011 01:50 Laids wrote:
I don't really agree with Incontrol toying with Idra over winning IPL after Idra said Zerg can't win anything. If Kiwi gets Phoenix in the last game for map control, which for him was non-existent, I feel like that game would have been totally different. Instead he played poorly and tried defending 3 bases with only stalkers. Idra is right, Zerg drops can be completely shut down with observer placement and aggressive Phoneix use, which has been shown numerous times before.
In which case our ground army is much weaker, and our infamous deathball has less death in it. That's how SC goes.
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On May 05 2011 01:46 Duravi wrote:Show nested quote +you do realize that this guy to this day claims tvp in bw is imba despite of flash owning everyone with stunning 72% winrate ? Does knowing that invalidate his argument? You should attack the points people make, not the person themselves.
Knowing this doesn't invalidate his argument, but it does contextualize it. Its hard to say Idra is right because of his position in the pro community, but then to say that his opponents cant use his position in the pro community against him.
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On May 05 2011 01:19 Gentso wrote:
Man, I wish you guys had a chance to involve Tasteless more in the show. That was really unfortunate how he came on (even with his webcam) and all he did was sit there listening to nonsensical babble until he gave his shoutouts. I saw the sadness in his eyes as he was waiting to be part of the show!
Very true, it could have been so much better. 
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I remembered this thread.
Idra was asking during the show what map has more than 50sec attack distance. Since P & T balls move with 2.25 speed (disregarding pure stalker) every map which has a nat2nat or choke2choke (whatever you want) distance of over 112 units is meeting those requirements.
Sadly only Blizzard Ladder maps are analysed, but we can see that most ladder maps used in tournaments (XNC, Meta without close ground, Tal'darim, Shakuras Plat) meet said requirement.
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I find it amusing that djWheat can manage video calls with skype, overlays and people calling in during the show, but sotg is always fucking with that overlay.
JP, time to get a chrash course in overlay managment with Whet!
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JP - on the SotG website you copied and pasted "simply click the bold "SotG - EP36" text.", when you should have changed it to SotG - EP37. Great (and highly entertaining) show as always!
Also, you forgot to include Machine!
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On May 05 2011 01:49 Tranqje wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2011 01:35 zs3000 wrote:On May 05 2011 01:31 dark14cs wrote:
That last SOTG made me lose respect for Sean. They should have Idra on every show and also a Terran representative. You lost respect for a guy that just showed everyone that Idra doesn't know what he's talking about? You realize Idra whole arguement was "I know everything, there's nothing else to ever know about anything ever" You lost respect for Day9 because Idra thinks that and Day9 actually puts thought and foresight into his words? Your right, terrible guy. Are you really serious? I understand people have opinions, but for you to come here and say a player of Idra's calibre has no clue what he's talking about is stupid. seeing he doesn't have a clue, his results are based on what exactly, him being lucky rather then knowing what he's doing and understanding the game? I tought his points of it being hard to scout and early aggression being difficult were very valid atleast. And countering everything someone says with 'well, haven't figured it out yet' seems incredibly easy. Imagine nothing changes, and in 5 years time thesame problems are still there. Will you come here and say 'oops, guess i was wrong'?
It's not Idra does not know what he's talking about, but he is CLEARLY BIASED... MVP says terran is the weakest race, idra says zerg is the weakest... There is bias, and I take anything Idra says with a grain of salt... His terran is the weakest race is BW was bs as well.
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EPT
